12V battery issue [Archive]

lemains

07-31-2008, 12:48 PM

Hi,

I am new to this technology and just beginning to test my cell.

How can I keep the cell connected to the 12V battery for a long period of time (+2 hours) without draining the battery?

Yesterday when I connected the cell to the battery, the tester was showing 12.5 V

After 20 min the tester was showing 4.5 V

Thanks a lot,

Smith03Jetta

07-31-2008, 02:21 PM

You can not expect a battery to last very long if it is not constantly being recharged at a rate equal to your generator consumption. If you want to bench test using a battery, hook up a battery charger to the battery and bump the amps up as high as the charger will go. This should buy you some time.

A better way is to buy an automotive alternator at a used car parts place and mount it to your workbench. Attach an electric motor to the alternator via a belt. Plug the electric motor into the wall and have fun. Don't forget to use a voltage regulator between the alternator and the battery to keep the alternator from overcharging the battery.

I've attached a photo. It's pretty elaborate but you get the idea. It can be done a lot easier than in this photo. This photo is from an alternator shop. They use this setup to test re-manufactured alternators. It's not exactly how we would use the setup but it works just the same.

lemains

07-31-2008, 05:36 PM

thanks a lot

lemains

05-04-2009, 02:28 PM

Q-Hack!

05-04-2009, 02:45 PM

how many horse power would the electric motor has to have in order to drive a regular 80A/100A alternator?

thanks a lot

Generally speaking, 1hp for every 25 amps. If your testing a smallish HHO generator that only pulls 20 amps, then you can get away with a 1 hp motor. However most everybody wants to go big in testing, so plan for the future where you may want to draw 60+ amps.

Alternatively many of the guys here build there own power supplies using three old computer power supplies run in series. More recently we have seen people making power supplies out of old microwave transformers. All are viable, find one that you can do cheaply and go with it.

slade420

05-04-2009, 03:09 PM

Q-Hack!

05-04-2009, 03:16 PM

From what ive read and correct me if im wrong, im still learning, a stepper-motor is the best solution since they start creating electricity at low RPM. As opposed to an alternator that needs to be over 1000 RPM. I seen a video on youtube where someone converts an alternator into a stepper-motor. i hope this helps.

Yes, but were are you going to find a stepper motor that can generate 80-100 amps? Unlike the alternator from a vehicle, something like that isn't all that common and will be quite pricey.

lemains

05-04-2009, 04:06 PM

Generally speaking, 1hp for every 25 amps. If your testing a smallish HHO generator that only pulls 20 amps, then you can get away with a 1 hp motor. However most everybody wants to go big in testing, so plan for the future where you may want to draw 60+ amps.

Alternatively many of the guys here build there own power supplies using three old computer power supplies run in series. More recently we have seen people making power supplies out of old microwave transformers. All are viable, find one that you can do cheaply and go with it.

I'm planning to go 80+ amps

so I guess I should be looking for a 4HP electric motor

Also, I guess the amps that the alternation can push are proportional to the RPM applied.. is that right?

H2OPWR

05-04-2009, 08:13 PM

I'm planning to go 80+ amps

so I guess I should be looking for a 4HP electric motor

Also, I guess the amps that the alternation can push are proportional to the RPM applied.. is that right?

A 4 hp electric motor will need to be 220 volts. There are very few 110 volt circuts that can handle that king of amp draw. It will also be very pricey. An alternative if you could live with the noise and can keep it outside is a gasoline powered motor. Honda makes a 5.5 hp small mnotor for under $200.00. It would also provide for some nice testing with HHO. That is the route I am taking this summer.

Larry

BoyntonStu

05-04-2009, 11:27 PM

A 4 hp electric motor will need to be 220 volts. There are very few 110 volt circuts that can handle that king of amp draw. It will also be very pricey. An alternative if you could live with the noise and can keep it outside is a gasoline powered motor. Honda makes a 5.5 hp small mnotor for under $200.00. It would also provide for some nice testing with HHO. That is the route I am taking this summer.

Larry

Larry,

Why are you working so hard to get 14 Volts and 60 Amps?

Use a MOT as HHOBLASTER suggests, or use 6 ATX power supplies.

Everything is dirt cheap and widely available.

Nothing needs to spin.

BoyntonStu

H2OPWR

05-04-2009, 11:39 PM

Larry,

Why are you working so hard to get 14 Volts and 60 Amps?

Use a MOT as HHOBLASTER suggests, or use 6 ATX power supplies.

Everything is dirt cheap and widely available.

Nothing needs to spin.

BoyntonStu

Because it equals automotive voltage!. That is the reason for this technology period. Without automobiles this would die and go away! This is too important for many other things to abandon the very reason for its being.

That said I would love to have the MOT type of power supply.

Larry

Larry

HHO BLASTER

05-05-2009, 12:10 AM

Gee Stu these guys like to do it the hard way, and spend a lot of money and work.

Find a old broken microwave

Pull it apart, and right near the power cord is the transformer (mot) and the

big High voltage Cap. short this cap out with a screw driver before it kills you

with 2,000 volts

Now remove the MOT

here is info from another site also building a DC welder from a MOT is about the same thing

ELECTRICAL SAFETY

The rewound transformer for your power supply must meet the requirements of Australian Standard AS 3108, which requires that 3KV AC RMS can be applied without breakdown between primary and all secondaries, primary and frame, and secondary and frame. (For those of other than Australian nationality, find the test specs which govern transformer construction in your country.)

This very practical specification is the result of enormous experience, and has been written by the regulatory authorities to ensure that the user of a device such as a transformer or power supply is not electrocuted or injured for any reason.

ONLY FOOLS IGNORE SUCH REGULATIONS.....

This is definitely not just another piece of useless government legislation, and every effort must be made by YOU during the rewinding of your transformer to ensure this spec is met, and your efforts are electrically safe. In short, there are no excuses for shoddy workmanship and legally all devices connected to the mains and having outputs accessible to a user must meet this spec.

Before you start this job, remind yourself again that the supply is connected to the 240 volt AC mains and that mistakes can be fatal. For this reason, your workmanship must be first class. If you have any doubts about your abilities then either find someone who is qualified to inspect your work and tell you whether it is acceptable, or find a professional who will do the work for you. Remember also that the transformer core must be physically connected to the mains earth, and that the primary must be fused as per the circuit diagram.

THESE INSTRUCTIONS PRODUCE A TRANSFORMER WHICH WILL SUPPLY A MAXIMUM CONTINUOUS DC SECONDARY CURRENT OF 8 AMPS AND WILL POWER AN SSB TRANSMITTER WHICH GENERATES UP TO 100 WATTS PEP ON VOICE PEAKS (SUPPLY CURRENT PEAKS UP TO 20 AMPS, WITH AN AVERAGE CURRENT DEMAND OF LESS THAN 8 AMPS). FOR OTHER APPLICATIONS, SEE THE CAUTIONS IN THE ARTICLE SECTION "GENERAL COMMENTS".

THE SAME TRANSFORMER ASSEMBLY REWOUND WITH HEAVIER SECONDARY WIRE WILL SUPPLY 18 TO 20 AMPS DC CONTINUOUSLY, BUT THE 35 AMP BRIDGE RECTIFIER MUST BE REPLACED WITH MUCH HEAVIER DIODES.(SEE "ADDING MORE GRUNT" LATER IN THIS ARTICLE.

Modifying a Microwave Transformer

I used a transformer from a 750 watt Sharp unit but any transformer from a microwave oven having a larger power output can be used. The smaller units use 1.2 turns/volt meaning that the 18 volt secondary needs 22 turns. The larger units from 1kW 'nukers' have bigger cores and use 1 turn/volt (18 secondary turns). The problem with most modern microwave transformers is that the cores have been welded together and cannot be disassembled for rewinding. Some other method has to be found for quickly removing the secondary winding.

Now is the time to don your blue and white striped apron because the best way of doing this is with an old wood chisel and a large hammer (see photographs). As can be seen from the photos the secondary is removed by using the chisel to cut off the protruding C-section of copper on either side of the core. Work parallel to the surface of the laminations at surface level, alternately attacking the winding from either side. Prise off the bits of copper winding you cut through as you go. Be careful not to damage the smaller primary winding. When you have removed the protruding copper on both sides of the core, drive out the remaining plug of lacquer and copper from the lamination window using a 12mm square punch. Next remove the magnetron filament winding. Now, using the same square punch, remove the magnetic shunts on both sides of the window. These are small groups of I-shaped laminations which sit directly above the 240 volt primary. Clean up the window removing all loose insulation. Using a sharp Stanley knife, cut a couple of I-shaped pieces of 3mm thick craft wood or 3-ply of exactly the same width as the window. These are placed in the same position as the magnetic shunts just removed and force the primary and secondary windings to be well separated. Use the cardboard from an old manilla folder or heavy masking tape to line the rest of the window, making sure that anything which could damage the insulation on the secondary winding is very well covered. In particular, sharp edges must be turned into smooth radiuses by using lots of cardboard/tape.

Quickly wind a temporary secondary with 5 turns of any old plastic insulated wire, connect 240 volt to the primary, and measure the AC secondary voltage. Calculate the turns/volt and hence calculate the number of secondary turns you need for the 18 volt winding.

Remove the temporary secondary and wind the real secondary using standard plastic insulated 7 x 0.69mm wire. Make sure that the insulation on the wire you use is rated for continuous operation at 90 degrees centigrade or more (lower temperature ratings are not available these days anyway). The plastic insulation has an outside diameter of just a fraction under 4mm. Electricians use this wire in either single or 3-core form to wire 20 amp power outlets (white outer sheath). In the old imperial terms it is known as 7 strands of 0.026 inch dia. Copper. Another way of specifying this cable is by referring to the cross-sectional area of the copper, which is 2.5 square millimeters. You will need around 6 to 7 metres for the secondary. You can use any wire you like for the secondary, provided the insulation will take high temperatures and the cross sectional area is 2.5 square millimeters. Heavier wire will cause the bridge rectifier to fail because the peak currents will be too high. Smaller diameter wire will simply overheat. Do not use single strand wire which is almost impossible to wind neatly. Wires with 2.5 square millimeter copper cross sections are also available with many more than seven strands, and are very flexible and easy to wind. Wind the secondary neatly in layers, making sure that a minimum gap of 3 millimetres exists between it and any part of the primary winding. It may be necessary to bind some parts of the winding with tape to ensure this. The winding which results will deliver 18 volt no load or about 15 volt at full load. Add a couple of extra bits 3mm MDF or 3 ply across the width of the transformer so that the secondary cannot sag and touch the primary (see photos).

An aid to neatly winding the secondary is to cut some more bits of 3mm ply to exactly fit the height of the window. These can be used to force the turns to sit flat through the window as you wind each layer.

When all is finished, test the transformer. During testing include a 1 ohm 5 watt resistor in series with the primary. You will be astonished at the no load magnetizing current of your transformer, which will probably be around 1 amp (1 volt RMS across the 1 ohm resistor) This very high value is caused by the iron in the core spending a good part of a mains cycle in saturation. This technique means that the weight and cost of the transformer is minimised, but that it also has very high losses which necessitate fan cooling of the transformer assembly.

THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PHOTOGRAPHS BELOW SHOWING HOW THE TRANSFORMER IS REWOUND. VIEW THESE PHOTOGRAPHS AS YOU READ THE DESCRIPTION ABOVE

Photo 1: Removal of seconday about to commence - Note that the chisel cuts must be level with the surface of the laminations.

http://www.users.on.net/~endsodds/mwt1.jpg

Photo 2: Protruding secondary C section half cut through.

http://www.users.on.net/~endsodds/mwt2.jpg

Photo 3: C section removed.

http://www.users.on.net/~endsodds/mwt3.jpg

Photo 4: Drive out the remaining part of the secondary .Work slowly and equally on both sides of the core centre leg.

http://www.users.on.net/~endsodds/mwt4.jpg

HHO BLASTER

05-05-2009, 12:11 AM

Photo 6: Secondary completely removed.

http://www.users.on.net/~endsodds/mwt6.jpg

Photo 7: Close up view showing magnetron filament winding (red wire) and magnetic shunts (extra laminations across the width of the window) which must be removed.

http://www.users.on.net/~endsodds/mwt7.jpg

Photo 8: Transformer core ready for rewinding.

http://www.users.on.net/~endsodds/mwt8.jpg

Photo 9: The completed transformer - note the extra interwinding insulation which has been inserted to prevent the secondary sagging towards the primary. Apply two coats of polyester lacquer to the transformer secondary and interwinding insulation to lock everything into place.

http://www.users.on.net/~endsodds/mwt9.jpg

HHO BLASTER

05-05-2009, 12:23 AM

Here is my first one i built it can go down to 1.5 volts and up to 2.5 volts @130 amps for a single cell testing

As soon as i get my new 150 diodes in i will be shipping one up to Larry in Alaska

I can aso run it up to 15 volts at 50 Amps but it may need a fan to cool it the best part is the microwaves come with 110 AC fans

http://i601.photobucket.com/albums/tt99/HHO_BLASTER/IMG_0032.jpg

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=3559&highlight=power+supply

H2OPWR

05-05-2009, 12:28 AM

[QUOTE=HHO BLASTER;28033]

Nice work

Larry

BoyntonStu

05-05-2009, 09:26 AM

[QUOTE=HHO BLASTER;28033]

Nice work

Larry

Larry,

I agree and I raise Gary's post to GREAT WORK!

Consider this:

Take the Gary 100 Amp MOT supply and place it across your spare car battery.

The result will be a 1:1 exact substitute for what happens in your car.

BoyntonStu

HHO BLASTER

05-05-2009, 10:30 AM

[QUOTE=H2OPWR;28035]

Larry,

I agree and I raise Gary's post to GREAT WORK!

Consider this:

Take the Gary 100 Amp MOT supply and place it across your spare car battery.

The result will be a 1:1 exact substitute for what happens in your car.

BoyntonStu

Good point, a very good point, now a big question is, what is the average current going to a battery that is fully charged in an engine without a HHO unit on it????????

BoyntonStu

05-05-2009, 10:41 AM

H2OPWR

05-05-2009, 11:30 AM

[QUOTE=BoyntonStu;28046]

Good point, a very good point, now a big question is, what is the average current going to a battery that is fully charged in an engine without a HHO unit on it????????

Mt truck is 13.9 volts with a fully charged battery and no large draw. With my cell running at 65 amps it drops to 13.1 at idle. They all will vary. If I did not have the high output alternator I would bet that the voltage would even be lower.

Larry

HHO BLASTER

05-05-2009, 11:54 AM

[QUOTE=HHO BLASTER;28050]

Mt truck is 13.9 volts with a fully charged battery and no large draw. With my cell running at 65 amps it drops to 13.1 at idle. They all will vary. If I did not have the high output alternator I would bet that the voltage would even be lower.

Larry

Ouch, but what i'm looking for in a answer is the current when driving

H2OPWR

05-05-2009, 03:15 PM

[QUOTE=H2OPWR;28056]

Ouch, but what i'm looking for in a answer is the current when driving

I can not get a good multimeter on the battery when I am driving but the voltage goes right back up to about 13.8 or so according to the volt meter on my HHO control box.

Larry

HHO BLASTER

05-05-2009, 06:13 PM