Electrolyte Vapor Filtration

[H2GenerationX]

Hey everyone! We all want the same thing, better mpg while making less of an impact on our environment....also sticking to the oil companies is kinda nice too ;) HHO cells dry or wet, have the inherant possiblity of pushing electrolyte vapor into our engine. Not only is this undesirable, but possibly could badly damage engine components inline with air intake. That being said I created this thread to give everyone a platform for ideas to filter out the vapor/moisture coming out of the hho cells we use. This is my solution, and I hope you can give your input along with any other advice or suggestions.

I noticed even after 2 bubblers that there was still a vapor coming out of my hose, and there was condensation forming inside the line. SO, I started thinking ...'what is a good material that could catch the vapor'....Activated Charcoal!!! I made a bubbler-like tube, lightly stuffed the inlet and outlet area with 100% cotton, and between was packed with Activated Charcoal. In goes vapor, out goes clear moisture free gas. No condensation, no white residue...nothing. Just Hydroxy! I went even further and put two of these inline to my motor, after the bubbler. Also, I put the inlet about 3 inches from the bottom, so that moisture can fall to the bottom, where I have a valve to drain it occasionally. I'm sure i'll have to change the Activated Charcoal occasionally once it becomes saturated. I'm looking into filter media that changes color once it's completely saturated. Make sure you check the resistance by blowing through the filter before adding it, to make sure you dont lose output, or build up pressure. Mine is fairly easy to blow through, but I had to re-arrange the cotton a couple of times. When it is packed down tight it gives alot of resistance, so keeping it fluffy is the key. Also I have stainless steel wool at the top of the bubbler to stop splashing water from going out the hose, and it also catches a small amount of vapor. GOOD LUCK! Suggestions/Improvements appreciated!!!

[oicu812]

I've thought about this alot too... Nobody want that crap inside their engines, but what about putting that vapor to work. Instead of bubbling it through water or filtering it through charcoal how bout filtering it through a bed of fine aluminium. The aluminium will decompose to aluminium oxide releasing H2. Its a exothermic reaction( produces heat) but with trace amounts of koh or naoh I doubt it would get hot enough to ignite the hho.

[redrat100]

"...I'm looking into filter media that changes color once it's completely saturated..."

I don't know about activated charcoal, never tried it. But, if you are looking for something that changes color, desiccant works well. When completely dry its blue. When its saturated it turns pink. Here is where I got mine:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#desiccants/=ay7qav

How much you need will depend on how many lpm your unit produces. I had a 1 lpm unit and it saturated 5 oz after 100 miles or so. More is better. The cool thing is that you can re-use it by drying it out in an oven or a vacuum chamber if you have one. I like the green aspect of this stuff. Saves the engine and re-usable.

[lhazleton]

Here's a really cheap one! http://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools/air-accessories/inline-desiccant-dryer-filter-94733.html
This is the silica: http://www.harborfreight.com/22-lb-silica-desiccant-97924.html
Under $12 for everything is a great price. Haven't bought one yet. The store is opening near me in a week or so, so I'm gonna wait, instead of ordering on-line.

[redrat100]

"...Here's a really cheap one! http://www.harborfreight.com/air-tools/air-accessories/inline-desiccant-dryer-filter-94733.html..."

Good find Hazelton. I started with a cartridge that size. Found it at a car parts store. They are meant to be air driers for pneumatic tools. I discovered that it saturated after less than 10 miles with 1 lpm HHO. So I went bigger, but not big enough. I need to build a cannister that will hold a half gallon of desiccant. More is better. More time between change outs.

[BioFarmer93]

I've thought about this alot too... Nobody want that crap inside their engines, but what about putting that vapor to work. Instead of bubbling it through water or filtering it through charcoal how bout filtering it through a bed of fine aluminium. The aluminium will decompose to aluminium oxide releasing H2. Its a exothermic reaction( produces heat) but with trace amounts of koh or naoh I doubt it would get hot enough to ignite the hho.

OICU812-
Way to use the old bean, bud! I like this idea tremendously. I'm going to use my angle grinder with an extremely coarse disc on it and make a pile of alum. dust to test in a chamber to try and get an idea how long it will be between cannister changes.

-Carter- Are you seeing this? I think this could well be the third member in the "trinity"...

[myoldyourgold]

Come on Guys let's not complicate this. You have an alkaline substance that you need to neutralize. Use an acidic substance that when picked up by the HHO, aids in combustion and neutralizes the alkaline. Think about it.

[lhazleton]

I remember reading about this procedure a long time ago somewhere. I believe that 1 concern was that the aluminum would continue to create hydrogen long after the reactor is turned off.
I don't think I have to re-post my pictures of what happens when there is residual HHO present when an engine starts.:mad:

[oicu812]

I remember reading about this procedure a long time ago somewhere. I believe that 1 concern was that the aluminum would continue to create hydrogen long after the reactor is turned off.
I don't think I have to re-post my pictures of what happens when there is residual HHO present when an engine starts.:mad:
very true... i'm sure some sort of servo safety valve would have to be used before putting something like this under the hood. I also believe that the trace amount of koh in the vapor wouldn't produce a whole hell of a lot of h2 from the aluminium either, but what the hell every little bit counts. Instead of nuetralizing something why not put it to work for you. you could always put a bubbler and scrubber down stream of the aluminium canister.

[PRAGMATIC]

Hi,
I'm new to the forum and have been reading everything i can find.
I think the smartest thing i can do right now is to ask you before i do anything eles. I would like to build my own generator, but i need some advise.
First i have 2 vehicles i am intending to start with a 1995 suburban 5.7 liter gas and a 1982 Mercedes 300sd 100k miles on it.
I am thinking right now that i would like to purchace the best designed generator you might recomend so i could study it and then work on improving it if i can.
Also your advice on a EFIE for the Suburban.
Your input will be greatly appreciated.
*Personal email would be ok to , if you feel it is appropriate
Thank you chriss1054@gmail.com

[koya1893]

This is one experiment I have not shared with everyone, because Lee gave us a good example what happens when a "bubbler" or scrubber is not used to filter the HHO before it enters the intake area.

What I did was run a cell for 8 hours straight (this is when I was using KOH) without a bubbler, straight from the reservoir. Pointed the outlet in a simulater intake with a throttle body I got from the junk yard, even small trace of KOH is carried through and eventually coat the surface of the butterfly is will attached itself to the surface and slowly eat away at the part. specially if it is made of aluminum, so if the grid up aluminum is used to filter the HHO and any small amount attached itself to that the filteration. It will make HHO even after the system is turn off, because that activity is doing it's own things in what even size tube or canister you are using as a filter.

Maybe I am missing something here, with two bubbler set up and running the HHO through an "air stone" to break up the huges bubbles which is carrying KOH fumes through some vinegar, then run it through a heat exchanger should eliminate any fumes with KOH being induced in the intake.

I have 22K on my F-150, at 20k I inspected the system including the throttle body. There was no sign of corrorion, then again I've been trying to keep my system simple to the point of less and less maintenance is required. so if I am missing something someone wake up this "olde salty chief" so i can learn something new.

[Roland Jacques]

I ran a test once with tightly packed Aluminum wool in a 3" dia by 6" long PVC reactor. My goal was to eliminate a bubbler all together. The gas came in from the side of the pvc pipe 2" from the bottom and into a 90 pointed down. The gas raised slowly to the top outlet fitting. It also had a drain at the bottom for condsation draining. The idea was to have the drain on a solenoid that opened when the engine was off. (never got to that part) It seemed to work good, but i really did not test it enough to say one way or an other. I also had concerns of the wool breaking down over time and being suck into the intake.

In retrospect i would try this again but make the reactor out of SS and add heat to it. But that's another subject.

Activated Carbon may not be a good choice, it is used for removing Gases... i wonder if it would recombine HHO or have negative effects on HHO reactivity? Also activated carbon does not trap Potassium other alkaline's & salts etc in Aquariums. so...

[redrat100]

"...Use an acidic substance that when picked up by the HHO, aids in combustion and neutralizes the alkaline...

Yup, did that too. I ran electrolyte in my reservoir, vinegar in my bubbler with a small porous fish tank aerator and out through a desiccant filter. The thing about the vinegar bubbler is that the bubbles never got small enough to neutralize all of the NaOh vapor. So the way I see it is by using a desiccant filter you absorb the NaOh (or KOh) bearing moisture. And, this is more accurate if you are doing MMW measurements because you are only measuring the dry gas volume and not gas mixed with water vapor.

Also, the thing about using aluminum filings: Aluminum will react with NaOh and KOh with water to produce an exothermic reaction with hydrogen as a by product. When the reaction is complete you will be left with a filter full of white powdery aluminum oxide which can be ingested into your engine.

[oicu812]

Also, the thing about using aluminum filings: Aluminum will react with NaOh and KOh with water to produce an exothermic reaction with hydrogen as a by product. When the reaction is complete you will be left with a filter full of white powdery aluminum oxide which can be ingested into your engine. true but if you run it through a bubbler and filter after the aluminium filings the aluminium oxide would never make it to the intake.

[redrat100]

Also true. It seems like a matter of which filter media one likes to replace and how complex of a system one wants. Charcoal, desiccant or aluminum. All require maintenance at some point. Of the three, charcoal is probably the cheapest. My preference is still desiccant because I know it dries the HHO and I can tell with a glance if it needs changing.

[myoldyourgold]

Originally Posted by myoldyourgold View Post
"...Use an acidic substance that when picked up by the HHO, aids in combustion and neutralizes the alkaline...


Yup, did that too. I ran electrolyte in my reservoir, vinegar in my bubbler with a small porous fish tank aerator and out through a desiccant filter. The thing about the vinegar bubbler is that the bubbles never got small enough to neutralize all of the NaOh vapor. So the way I see it is by using a desiccant filter you absorb the NaOh (or KOh) bearing moisture. And, this is more accurate if you are doing MMW measurements because you are only measuring the dry gas volume and not gas mixed with water vapor.

Also, the thing about using aluminum filings: Aluminum will react with NaOh and KOh with water to produce an exothermic reaction with hydrogen as a by product. When the reaction is complete you will be left with a filter full of white powdery aluminum oxide which can be ingested into your engine.

Red Rat, I never said anything about vinegar. Vinegar does not aid in the combustion. Think some more.

[oicu812]

Also true. It seems like a matter of which filter media one likes to replace and how complex of a system one wants. Charcoal, desiccant or aluminum. All require maintenance at some point. Of the three, charcoal is probably the cheapest. My preference is still desiccant because I know it dries the HHO and I can tell with a glance if it needs changing. its a little pricy but calcium hydride would make a great dring agent. christ... they used to fill blimps with the stuff. Just add water.

[astrocady]

I think you're all over reacting. I use one, well designed (IMO) bubbler utilizing a porous plastic aerator and I can see no signs of vapors coming out, even when running at 4 lpm. I've directed the gas output onto a piece of angle aluminum for several days, and saw no corrosion.

Steve

[myoldyourgold]

I agree 100% Sir. I have had the same result with the same diffuser. I am just improving on combustion and avoiding the EFIE. :)

[oicu812]

I think you're all over reacting. I use one, well designed (IMO) bubbler utilizing a porous plastic aerator and I can see no signs of vapors coming out, even when running at 4 lpm. I've directed the gas output onto a piece of angle aluminum for several days, and saw no corrosion.

Steve

yeah but would'nt be great to turn that 4 Lpm into 5 Lpm without having to add additional amperage. Seams to me if you can squeeze out more efficientcy in any device its an improvement.

[redrat100]

Here is another media that can be used to filter and dry out HHO. Rice. I have to thank my wife for that one. She used it to keep salt dry in humid climates. This one seems easy enough to try. Get a pound or two of rice and stuff the outlet hose into the bag. And if it doesn't work you have fixins for dinner!

But, it won't aid combustion like myoldyourgold's mystery acid will.

[myoldyourgold]

Here is another media that can be used to filter and dry out HHO. Rice. I have to thank my wife for that one. She used it to keep salt dry in humid climates. This one seems easy enough to try. Get a pound or two of rice and stuff the outlet hose into the bag. And if it doesn't work you have fixins for dinner!

But, it won't aid combustion like myoldyourgold's mystery acid will.

Redrat100, we used rice in our saltshakers in a humid climate but to my knowledge it was just to help the salt from clumping and brake it up when shaking it. I doubt it will absorb any moisture. Try it and report.

I do not use an acid but an acidic substance. That means it has to be 7 or below on the scale. For example there are a number of oils that are acidic enough to bringing the HHO down to close to neutral or at least so there is no damage to aluminum parts. Now I am not saying it is an oil but that is an example of something that will burn and can be acidic. The only reason it is a mystery is it is still under testing and because it is flammable, just not any Tom, Dick or Harry should be playing with it, without the proper safety devices. I know from experience!! LOL

[MtnGoatXJ]

Ok so adding al dust or acid to a bubbler will not reduce electrolyte vapors from eating the throttle body/butterfly.

What is a recommended design for a mechanical dehumidifier?
Scotch Brite in a "bubbler tube"?

[BioFarmer93]

Ok so adding al dust or acid to a bubbler will not reduce electrolyte vapors from eating the throttle body/butterfly.

What is a recommended design for a mechanical dehumidifier?
Scotch Brite in a "bubbler tube"?

Maybe something like this?

[Quebecker]

Look that ....

http://static.coleparmer.com/large_images/0719300.jpg

[BioFarmer93]

There you go- the high dollar version..;):D

[ultra_efficient]

i use 3 of these http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEBMLWIa4ng

[koya1893]

I would like to put this myth to rest as well, but I need time to get my things together so I can finally publish the design for my "waterless bubble". It is capable of capturing the steam, moisture and solution residue from the HHO before it enters your intake, about 150ml for every 2k mile or so. Several clients have tested it, every oil change the solution is drain from the unit, or you can do it weekly. And if you drive short distance it can take months before you even have to drain was collected. the design is simple the material you can get at local store.

[pimpo]

I need something fast, as my generation contains too much steam, I am currently using a bubbler fed from the bottom and the outlet on the top to my intake,I had a refrigeration steel filter after, but removed it. Harbor freight has cheap solutions even disposable 3/8 dissecant filters:
http://www.harborfreight.com/disposable-inline-moisture-filter-68224.html

It would be interesting filling a bubbler with some kin of naftalenic oil to neutralize the KOH as his oil is acidic:
Lubrication, Volume 7, Issues 10-12 By Texas Company, Texaco, inc

[redrat100]

Redrat100, we used rice in our saltshakers in a humid climate but to my knowledge it was just to help the salt from clumping and brake it up when shaking it. I doubt it will absorb any moisture. Try it and report.

Believe it or not, but rice works just fine. I ran some experiments with different absorption materials a while ago but am just now getting around to posting the results. Here is what I did. A dry cell producing 2 lpm HHO. Ambient temperature was 60.4 F. First, I ran the cell unfiltered into a plastic bag for a baseline. HHO temperature was 70.4 F. A lot of steam condensed inside the bag and litmus paper indicated a PH of about 9.5 coming out of the hose. Second, I filled a 1.5 qt container with white rice and connected the HHO hose to the bottom of the container. An output hose from the top of the container was run into a clean bag. After a 15 minute run only very slight condensation was seen inside the bag. The PH was about 7 telling me that the moisture was absorbed by the rice. After several runs the rice became sticky at the bottom of the container, the top was still dry. Third, I used kitty liter (unscented) in the 1.5 qt container. I got the same results as with the rice, very slight condensation in the bag and a PH of 7. After a while the kitty litter clay at the bottom got sticky but the top was dry. Fourth, I used silica gel, the kind that turns pink when saturated. Same results, very slight condensation in the bag and a PH of 7. After about an hour the silica at the bottom around the hose inlet was pink but the top was still blue.

My conclusion is that silica gel is the best for absorbing moisture from HHO gas. It does not get mushy like rice or clay and it turns color to let you know it is saturated. While it does not neutralize the basic solution carried by the water vapor, it does absorb the moisture from the gas stream thereby eliminating the caustic effects of the moisture. Also, I would still use a small bubbler as a flashback arrestor down stream of the dessicant container since this container will be filled with combustible gas.

[myoldyourgold]

Good information Red Rat. Thanks for the post. I guess even though humidity was near or 100% in the salt shaker the rice was less absorbent than the salt so never got soft. I have soaked good aged basmathi rice over night and it still does not go to mush. Other sticky rices might act different like jasmine. There are many varieties of rice and they will react differently. Shorter fat varieties will absorb more moisture I suspect. What type or rice did you test? You didn't mention the length of time it took for the rice to get soft which would interest me. It also might make a difference based on the age and type of rice. I am just curious if the PH is above 7 does rice absorb moisture faster or even more and if rice has any PH reducing quality about it. It didn't seam to in your test. I will test some in water to see how long it actually takes fully immersed in water at different PH levels using alkaline water without the use of electrolyte though. Excellent information that silica gel is the best of what you tested and something Bio is testing too. I wonder if you can add some boric acid to the silica? Great information thanks again.

[redrat100]

I used plain white rice, not sure of the variety. I just swiped it from the pantry and P/Oed the wife. Messed up her dinner plans that week. Each test was for about an hour of run time, on and off. I did use the word "mushy" but that is not really an accurate description. The rice and kitty litter clay was just sticky to the touch, sort of like very under cooked rice. After it had cooled, the sticky parts clumped together and dried out some and stuck to the bottom of my 1.5 qt container. To become mushy as I said it would need to be immersed in water for some time. It was nowhere near that much saturation.

If it's one thing I like about this forum is that it is a good peer review arena. Thanks for asking for the clarification.

[BioFarmer93]

I was sort of laying low to see if there was going to be any follow up on this--- I'm glad there was. I have had the rice idea in the back of my head for a couple of years now, but didn't really want to say anything on the forum about it if it didn't work out- in which case everyone who thinks I'm crazy would then be very sure. Whew! THANKS REDRAT!!
Since I already have the color change desiccant crystals set up and ready to go, I'm gonna stick with them for the first round, but you can not argue with the cost effectiveness of rice. Look out Uncle Ben! (No Chief, not you).:D

Carter- Thank you for the link to that little O3 generator- it looks like the size and output level that I have been looking for.

[ultra_efficient]

can running the HHO through a cold water scrubbler also reduce the vapor?

[Weapon_R]

can running the HHO through a cold water scrubbler also reduce the vapor?

Good question. The scrubber removes electrolyte carried by vapor but the bubbling thru the scrubbers create its own vapor.
So any bubbler that has water contained within will add vapor to the mix.

[kimbo]

how about plumbing the hydroxy into the air cleaner box and letting the paper cleaning element dry the gas?

[BioFarmer93]

how about plumbing the hydroxy into the air cleaner box and letting the paper cleaning element dry the gas?

That actually works pretty well, but you do have to keep an eye on the filter element though because the KOH is a little harsh on it after a while.

[kimbo]

element for me gets changed every six months... i live by the sea..... salt air wrecks paper elements.
hows the beast coming bio? any more news.
i had about 1lpm at around 10A on battery test..... i gotta save up for a power supply. but as soon as i can test for more than a 20 mins or so, i'll be hooking mine into the van. dreading it a way..... loads of electronics on the thing and it already does 42 to the gallon so i don't know if i'll see much difference on consumption.... only time will tell..

[ultra_efficient]

Good question. The scrubber removes electrolyte carried by vapor but the bubbling thru the scrubbers create its own vapor.
So any bubbler that has water contained within will add vapor to the mix.

i guess running it through a series of cold water bubblers(not scrubblers) could reduce the vapor.

[myoldyourgold]

Richard, if you just blow plain air through water it picks up moisture. HHO will do the same. It will clean out any escaping electrolyte but adds some moisture. To remove moisture some kind of filter or moisture absorbing product is needed after the bubbler. Clean moisture is not necessarily a problem. Dry HHO is more powerful but the burn rate might be to fast unless the timing is correct. There is a proper balance necessary between flame speed and timing. Moisture might slow things down.

[kimbo]

how about..... and i said this long ago (and got told off for making things to hot) running final output through a condenser unit something like is used on tumble driers. flat plates with the hho passing over them one way and cool air from the rad/fan unit (or computer fan to make a sealed unit) running over the plates on the other side. the vapour would condense and leave only the gas flowing to the intake plenum. if a heat exchanger from a tumble drier was used, it's stainless, so any electrolyte in the vapour would'nt harm it and could be routed back to the reservoir.
i've just installed a heat recovery system in my house, takes moist warm stale air out and passes it over a heat exchanger with external air running back into the house and heating via the exchanger, the efficiency is around 87%, so i know this kind of condenser tech works.

[ultra_efficient]

Richard, if you just blow plain air through water it picks up moisture. HHO will do the same. It will clean out any escaping electrolyte but adds some moisture. To remove moisture some kind of filter or moisture absorbing product is needed after the bubbler. Clean moisture is not necessarily a problem. Dry HHO is more powerful but the burn rate might be to fast unless the timing is correct. There is a proper balance necessary between flame speed and timing. Moisture might slow things down.

very good input, Thanks. as always you always give me logic to look at. when i use HHO on a VVT, VVTi or CVVT engine, i never have much problem with timing so i think working with any engine that has VVT, VVTi or CVVT or its way or version of whatever VVT. so as for the vapor it seem we should run the HHO through a coil of brass tube with a heat exchange from the exhaust manifold, the heat will dry the vapor out.

tell me what you guys think

[lhazleton]

so as for the vapor it seem we should run the HHO through a coil of brass tube with a heat exchange from the exhaust manifold, the heat will dry the vapor out.
tell me what you guys think

Richard,
Have you tried a heat exchanger of any type yet? It seems to make sense.

[BioFarmer93]

very good input, Thanks. as always you always give me logic to look at. when i use HHO on a VVT, VVTi or CVVT engine, i never have much problem with timing so i think working with any engine that has VVT, VVTi or CVVT or its way or version of whatever VVT. so as for the vapor it seem we should run the HHO through a coil of brass tube with a heat exchange from the exhaust manifold, the heat will dry the vapor out.

tell me what you guys think

Well, that handles half the problem- the extra heat doesn't really dry it out (as anyone that has ever lived on a tropical island knows :D) but it does really raise its dew point so that condensing the moisture out of the gas can be accomplished at a much higher temperature, maybe even without the aid of supplemental (refrigerant) cooling. Perhaps something like the HHO output to a copper coil wrapped around an exhaust manifold (loosely) then routed forward to another coil in front of the radiator. The radiator coil could have a "T" at the low point of the last coil with an airtight removable condensate catch bottle..

[kimbo]

no no no..... COOL the coil or plate exchanger , this will cause the vapour to condense out of the gas and can then be returned to the reservoir.

[ultra_efficient]

Well, that handles half the problem- the extra heat doesn't really dry it out (as anyone that has ever lived on a tropical island knows :D) but it does really raise its dew point so that condensing the moisture out of the gas can be accomplished at a much higher temperature, maybe even without the aid of supplemental (refrigerant) cooling. Perhaps something like the HHO output to a copper coil wrapped around an exhaust manifold (loosely) then routed forward to another coil in front of the radiator. The radiator coil could have a "T" at the low point of the last coil with an airtight removable condensate catch bottle..

oh i see where you are going with that, to catch the vapor extract or drip off but still in a vacuum so to speak. im in the process of building the heat exchange coil now. heat it then cool it before intake :D even thou its not efficient i was thinking of using a Peltier cooler to cool the cold side of the HHO treatment system.

so exhaust use to heat the hot side and Peltier cooler use to cool the cold side. what you guys think?

[sixpack127]

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/CuttingEdge/story?id=98159&page=1#.TxC_i4HRFkg

[ultra_efficient]

Also your advice on a EFIE for the Suburban.
Your input will be greatly appreciated.


i have don't the 5.7L Suburban, its best to use a AFC to tune it because if the 4 O2 sensors. the Suburbans are made with alot of sensors and its tough getting pass them with even the AFC if you don't know what you are doing. don't even waste your time with Other EFIEs, just use a SAFC2 or a VAFC2 and save yourself the trouble trust me.

i used a VAFC1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SvyFREXNAw

[kimbo]

just tried it... put hho generator output through an old tumble drier plate exchanger and put that in front of the radiator intake and "loads" (technical term for unmeasured amount) of condensate came back. don't get the heat it up first idea though?!