16 Wall Plate Dry Cell Fail Very little Production

[(D3F0)]

Last weekend I went to Lowe's and bought everything I needed to make a dry cell. I bought 18 plates half of them were from Home depot. The quality of these plates was really bad, they were very magnetic and corroded surprisingly fast. Then I bought a bunch of stainless steel hardware, Pvc pipe with caps, barbs, tubeing, and 60 ml shower pan liner. I went to work cutting the plates making neutrals, Positives and negatives. After that i cut out the gaskets and i thought i had it looking pretty good.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0034.jpg

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0035.jpg

I spent all of Sunday cutting all my gaskets and plates. I even took the plates and I even sanded where surface that is going to be in contact with the solution. I put together the actual cell by cutting the Lexan i put together a neat little cell. The plates have 1/16 spacing between them.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0032.jpg

That is a picture of an 8 plate cell i tried half the plates to try a different wiring solution. I changed my wiring to +NN--NN+

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0028.jpg

No matter what I tried this plate did not produce any actual hydrogen at all I tried it with a bunch of different power supplies, I used baking soda as my electrolyte. Can someone help me out or something this ended up failing hard haha and that was after trying a bunch of different things. Just in case your wondering I used about 1/3 of a tablespoon to 5 cups of water in my test at 18v 3.5 amps, 17v 2.5 amps, 12 volts at 1.5 amps and 12v with im not sure how amps at least 20 though. So let me know what you think i did wrong this is my first attempt at this stuff.

[koya1893]

I must admit, I have not used baking soda as the electrolyte so I might not give you a good example. First I noticed the width of your gasket covers more surface than what is exposed for production, even still you should produce something.

So, try configuring your cell this way -NNNNN+, then find some NaOH at lowes, it's called drain cleaner or 100% drain cleaner. use 10 table spoon per 1 qt. of distilled water. As I said I cannot offer you mixture number for the baking soda because I have not used it. For experiment purpose, you can find the readily mixed liquid drain solution and mix that with 1/2 gl. of water. But you need to use NaOH or KOH to get better result and use the configuration above.

Also, the equalizing holes are far too big and need to be alternating not direct to each. Even the way you have it configured now you should produce, try mixing your solution stronger with what you have. BE CARFUL with Baking soda it produces some toxic fumes, so do it in an well ventelated area OUTSIDE.

[(D3F0)]

Thanks for the quick response I am going to retry my configuration using what you said right now and get the drain cleaner and supplies later today. The holes are drilled really wrong idk what i was thinking haha but check out this funny stupid wet cell i made in 5 mins you will laugh and I still do looking at it.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0036.jpg


http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0037.jpg


It is made out of Hard drive plates its 3+ and 2- its funny because I have been playing around with the couple things i made and this things goes crazy in the water. Also is drain cleaner less toxic in a fuel cell?

[BioFarmer93]

D3F0-
It's late and I'm tired so this'll be short. Low production because the unit is tiny (wall plates) and the gaskets are relatively HUGE, you have only two neutral plates per stack an you've wasted a power plate in the middle there by adding (for whatever reason) a redundant one of the same polarity. If you want to work with wall plates, then buy at least seven more and a HDPE cutting board from Wal-Mart to make your end plates from. Don't ever use baking soda again, Google KOH and buy some. Use stainless steel hardware. Make your gaskets only half as wide as those you showed us. Build your unit in this configuration... +NNNNNN-NNNNNN+ That is the minimum, as small as wall plates are, you could repeat this configuration at least 4 more times before you got into any serious amp draw. G'nite.

[(D3F0)]

Thanks a lot For the reponse im going to try today to get a bunch of supplies I was not able to get any suppllies yesterday. Is NaOH just as good as KOH because thats what im going to try today. Im going to try 22 or 19 Plates but i can tell if my shower Pan Liner is 40ml or 60ml I bet its 40 ml and it must be shorting out when I compress it to seal. Also should I do +NNNNNN-NNNNNN+NNNNNN- or should I try -NNNNN+NNNNN-NNNNN+. Im going to try and get around 2liters a minture and I will be cutting my gaskets to half the size also so the will be about 1/4 inch in width all around. Thanks for all the help.

[lhazleton]

Considering the material you're using for plates, you might as well just go with 5 bi-polar plates per stack. As far as putting out 2LPM, it ain't gonna happen.
Just use NaOH for now as it's much cheaper than KOH.
Once you get some experience under your belt, you'll see what I mean.

[(D3F0)]

Yea ill just use -NNNNN+ I found out my shower pan liner is only .040 inches thick so i have to double stack which means all day cutting up some more gaskets. I went to Walmart, Lows, Radioshack, and Home depot today and got all the stuff I need. Do you think this Drain opener that says it has Potassium hydroxide in it is an OK electrolyte, here is a picture of the bottle

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/Drain.jpg

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/Drain2.jpg

and yes I am Black haha but this should work right?

[BioFarmer93]

D3F0-
Dude,you are not black. You made me go back and look at the photo again 'cause I totally missed it. We have some Nigerian friends from church that make you look like a fish belly!:eek: Anyway, making HHO is NOT an exclusive white boy club..
That drain opener IS KOH- you did good. Don't worry about only .040" thick gaskets, your plates will not short out when tightened, hell, I still use .040" and my plates are a lot bigger with no shorting, so it's all good.
It doesn't matter if you go +NNNNNN-NNNNNN+ OR -NNNNNN+NNNNNN- ..the electrons don't care. I know LHazleton said to use 5 neutral plates, but with the square inches of active plate area available in your reactor being on the small side, keep some extras handy, so you can insert 1 more in each stack if she starts running away heat-wise. Oh yeah, you're going to need to get yourself a tap of the proper thread size for the fittings that you go with, because these things will leak if given half a chance, so good fitting to end-plate sealing is important... Well, is it done yet??? PICTURES!!! We love pictures!

[(D3F0)]

haha yea Im not dark at all but im almost 100% hatian but back to hydrogen =) Im glad I got the right drain cleaner but It sucks that I just spent 2 hours cutting 46 gaskets when I did not even need that many. Is .080 inch gap too big because id like to try it if Its the same thing and not feel like I wasted all that work. =/ I Cut the gaskets to make them 1/4 inch wide to give me a little more surface area here is what they look like.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/NewGaskets.jpg

I like the new gaskets a lot better they make more sence to me. I have 10 more Neutral plates waiting to be flattened out and cut like the rest here is a picture to show about everything im going to use to make my tiny 21 wall plate gen.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/Everything.jpg

That is almost 120 dollars of supplies, the cutting board from Walmart is beastly thanks for the tip Biofarmer. Obviously it will seal much better than that thin lexan. In the photo
notice the old computer power supply that im going to convert into a pinch power suppy it is only 250 watts but it can put out 12V at 16 amps which is good enough for now. Thanks for the help eveyone ill be posting more of my progress tommorrow.

[koya1893]

D3FO,
I want to thank you for you post with some thoughts behind all your questions and drawing in some of the "olde" guys back into this forum to give you some of the answers to your questions. I noticed the 2" PVC pipe, which I assume you will use for your bubbler and the slip on expansion plug. I used them for awhile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qS2JShKkW4
Checkout this link and see what I mean about making better use of that plug. these are my contribution to the community.

[(D3F0)]

Hey koya thanks a lot for your help too man I forgot to give you some credit haha. I tried not to ask stupid questions I dont know much yet but in some time I should be getting better at it all. That pipe is actually going to be my resivoir I like that video though ill try and see if I could try that thanks for the advice.

[lhazleton]

D3,
Looking much better! Not to overstep Ben, but I've used the expansion plugs in the past & didn't like them. They will rust, and you don't need contaminants in the e/lyte. Instead, I bought the cheaper black rubber ends with hose clamps on them. They work really well.
Also, a 12vdc power supply will work, but remember: an average car will be putting out 13.8vdc, not 12. Believe me, 1.8 volts makes a whole lot of difference when it comes to splitting molecules!
After running it with the power supply for a while & playing with it, try just attaching it to jumper cables hooked up to a running car. You'll see what I mean!;)
Have fun & be safe.

[(D3F0)]

That is a good point I did not even think about how they would rust and the black caps do make more sense but almost seems like in that video In Ben comments if I did that it would be a pretty strong for a good reservoir. Also the car battery is a good point ill try that and see if I can get some type of PWM device or somthing thanks for your help.

[koya1893]

No worries Lee, one thing I did not mention was replacing that bolt with a SS one from West Marine. good point. It all depend where you are located, the shower liner "Buro Meter" is too high to compress and when it get cold like it is in most of area you need to really torque down your bolt to keep it tight and from leaking.

[(D3F0)]

Yea i was thinking that too it is very cold out so I'm sure it will have to be real tight. I could not get anything done today because of schoolwork haha except for get some more supplies and I located a steel supplier 1 mile from my house who will get me 316L Stainless steel of any gauge I want for cheap and will even cut it for free. Check out their website its a pretty cool place http://www.aaa-metals.com/laser-water-jet-cutting-new.html . So if the build I'm working on actually does pretty well then I will be upgrading to a bigger unit very soon. I will be posting the actual build this weekend once I get started on it ill try and take some good pictures.

[myoldyourgold]

Change the bolt on the plug to stainless and clean the grease out of them or you will have trouble. They come with grease on the inside. Take it apart wash it good and change the stove bolt to stainless. It is worth the money.

[(D3F0)]

Yea thanks for the tip your right that thing is greasy as hell and its very easy to replace that stupid bolt with a nice Stainless steel one im sure they have a good enoguht bolt at home depot or lowes.

[koya1893]

Yea i was thinking that too it is very cold out so I'm sure it will have to be real tight. I could not get anything done today because of schoolwork haha except for get some more supplies and I located a steel supplier 1 mile from my house who will get me 316L Stainless steel of any gauge I want for cheap and will even cut it for free. Check out their website its a pretty cool place http://www.aaa-metals.com/laser-water-jet-cutting-new.html . So if the build I'm working on actually does pretty well then I will be upgrading to a bigger unit very soon. I will be posting the actual build this weekend once I get started on it ill try and take some good pictures.


Thank you for that link I am in the process of looking for another supplier that can do more of the drillilng and cutting my plates instead of having a helper do.

[(D3F0)]

Yea they are a good place its located in Hanson, MA today is going to finally be the day i start building again but I still have not made up my mind about the spacing I know that the closer spacing = less resistance within the gap, more current flow and more gas released. So I guess .040 inches isn't bad Ive read a couple times for example in the comments of this you tube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fWwwsB1KN0 that double stacking is the way to go because it is more efficient. I know Bio farmer you said it should be find cause you use the same gap but the reason I am thinking about double stacking the gaskets is because my plates have a slight curve in them all since they are just wall plates that I flattened out in a little vice. I still am convinced ill easily short it out due to how much pressure Im going to have to put on these gaskets to seal 21 plates correctly. I'm gonna start cutting my plates tell me what you think about the spacing.

[(D3F0)]

Alright everyone I just spent 6 hours straight finishing up my dry cell and it looks pretty good i still need to get a couple things but here is a big update there are going to be 15 pictures so stay with me here haha.

First thing I did was clean off all my plates I fount out that the plates from Home depot are 430 grade stainless steel. I also got some of the same quality from Lowe's but i think Lowe's has two types and i got the crappy magnetic stuff because there other ones were out of stock. The plates I have will stain, Rust and corrode they suck and I do not even get why I even wasted my time with them. It turns out for these to last a little longer they need to be shined to a mirror finish, stupidly I scratched the hell out of mine. So I had to shine them up the best I could. Here is a pic of a comparison the one on the left I touched up the one on the right was from the failure before.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0030-1.jpg

It took me about an hour to clean all my previous plates this way I used a wire brush on a grinder to get it all done. After I shined them up i cut 7 more neutral plates and did the same thing.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0034-1.jpg

They look pretty good for now but I hope they last a couple days at least. Once i got them all cut up and shined I cut the bop holes on the new neutral plates a lot bigger so i can get a better flow when I stack them so that the cell is kind of temped to fill up better.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0037-1.jpg

After the holes were drilled i cut up the cutting board from Wall mart it was started to look like I actually was getting somewhere about here.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0040.jpg

Once the board was cut I used a drill with a 1/2 inch drill bit to make a hole and then used some type of really old tap thing i found in a random spot in my basement.

[lhazleton]

Good to see that you're making progress! By doing everything yourself, you'll learn quite a bit. For a first try, you're doing nicely.
After you get the reactor up & running, and then see all of the rust & gunk that the cheap plates make, it'll be time to move on. Just don't be discouraged, as we've all been there. It's how we learn: the less you put into it, the less you'll get out of it.
Two things to change on your next build:
1) Cross-sand both sides of each plate (unless you're able to Media Blast). You don't want the plates polished.
2) Keep your gas holes lined up, but stagger the holes for the ecectrolyte flow. These should be at about 4&8 O'clock (roughly) on alternate plates. You want the E/lyte holes as far away from each other as possible. This will help against current leakage.
Keep up the good work & continue posting results!:cool:

[(D3F0)]

I meant to say that the plate were not polished they were just equally scratched up using the wire wheel. thanks for the advice though. I finished the dry cell I was going to post it all this morning but it was 4am I had to go to bed. So here is the rest.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0041.jpg

That old drill is truly dieing but here is a closer look at the tap thing I hoenstly don't even know what it really is but it worked sort of..

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0061.jpg

I just went through the whole board and backed off slowly it did a big thread the only problem was that the thread did not match exactly to
the 90 degree barbs I had to screw on later so it was really hard to get them to actually screw in.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0062.jpg

After I had the holes all threaded up I started to clean up the plates like crazy. First i cleaned them with regular dishwasher soap. Then I washed them off with tap water, then I washed them off in purified water. Last I wiped them down really good with Alcohol I hope i didn't mess this process up I used this bottle.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0074.jpg

I let the plates dry on a towel for about 30 mins they looked pretty good here is what they looked like before i started putting everything together.

[(D3F0)]

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0064.jpg

cleaning these plates is such a pain haha once i let them dry I started to assemble used 2 gaskets so my spacing is .080 inches.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0077.jpg

The bolts have no insulation on them because what I did was torque them all down with none,
after that i took each one and put a piece of heat shrink over it. Put the bolt back in and then
I had to compressed it all together

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0078.jpg

I only used 3 inch bolts Almost ran out of room just to get the board on I had to squeeze the crap out of the
the cell and so that the wing nuts could grab on to the thread.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0079.jpg

I know that my Barbs don't even look like they are in but its because I have to get a matching thread I could not find one they are in
about a 1/4 inch on each side. Just a 1/4 inch and I cant even move them anymore and it seems to be sealing really good.

[(D3F0)]

Here are a couple more pictures of what the dry cell looked like when i was done. Hopefully this will do lot
better than the last one. I tried to listen to all the advice that I got and it looks much better my configuration is
+NNNNN-NNNNN+NNNNN-

Here is a front view you can see how much smaller my gaskets are now trough the cutting board
It has much more surface area you guys were right the gaskets made a lot more sense at half the
size just look at the difference

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0080.jpg

Next is a top view of how the board is holding up to a lot of compression it is still bending
just a little bit but I'm fine with that because I would of def broke the Lexan by now
and that stuff is 250 X stronger than glass.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0081.jpg

And last here is a side view of the cell the bolt looks like it is all corroded but that is
just left over corrosion from the last one I made all my hardware on that cell is
stainless steel those threads can be cleaned off with my finger. The reason I didn't do that yet
it because I finished this at 3:30 AM.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SANY0083.jpg

[(D3F0)]

I am not happy with the seal of my cell and the bend of my cutting board. I thought it was thicker, the board i have is only 5/16 thick I need 1/2 inch and longer bolts with bigger washers. When i blow through this with my mouth while closing the other side i get a tiny little leak. That is really small and almost whistles. So today I am going to get bigger washers, Bigger bolts, a 1/4 inch tap, a 1/2 inch cutting board and a couple more 90 degree elbows. Hopefully this will seal perfectly once I work out these little bugs.

[lhazleton]

Don't get disappointed with your work! You're in the early stages of the "learning-curve" as such. After you've got a couple of grand and hundreds of hours into developing your system, you can ***** about things not being perfect.:rolleyes:
If I were you, I'd get another cutting board, cut it the same & double-up on the endplates. To get mine so it won't bend, I did just that plus added 1/8" steel to the outsides, cut the same as the endplates. Works fine.
You may also wish to add some more bolts around the perimeter.
Judging by the photo's, at least 1 more in the top & bottom centers would help.
For a first build, you're doing very well & we're all pulling for ya!
By the way, the thing that you were using to cut threads is a set-screw.;)
If you buy a tap, make sure that it's for NPT threads! A normal tap doesn't have a taper & sealing it will be nearly impossible.

[(D3F0)]

Yea true but dam a couple grand! I'm only a high school student here =0 later I am going to get the stuff but I should have a picture of the cell all put together with the reservoir tonight. That's a good idea bout adding the steel too and yea i plan on getting some 4 inch bolts instead and I am gonna use 2 more too add more of an equal pressure all around. Thanks for telling me what that screw was too I couldn't think of its name haha

[koya1893]

D3, I have to hand to you, you are presistant in getting a cell working. One thing I should have noticed in the early stage: the bolts you're using, the wing nuts are hard to hold to get good torque and it looks like the screw head is "straight slot". I recommend getting some bolts with "X" heads and regular "X" nuts so you can use a two wrench or socket to tighten your cell.

Second: when you are bolting the cell using just the outer parimeter instead of going through the plates itself you need to keep the bolts as close as you can to the outer perimeter of the plates. Heading to the gym, I will send you a photo to show what I am talking about so you can see. It will prevent the end plates from bowing enough not to cause the cell to leak.

[(D3F0)]

Haha you can never give up on something as intense as HHO and thanks for response i actually just got back from home depot I had the same exact though so before reading your post I already started to redo the holes and the bolts no more wing nuts and different bolt pattern with 16 bolts instead of 12 for more equal pressure and I will post a couple pics in a little bit when I am finished rebuilding the cell.

[koya1893]

Well done. I don't have a fancy program to illustrate what I was talking about so I came up with something that will do. The large white circle with the black dot inside represent how the washer will apply pressure on your plates. The distance between the edge of the plates and the bolts is close, about 1/16 that way the washer will put more pressure on the plates and gasket. I know you like using big bolts, I use #10-20 SS screws on my cell, with the phillips head and 3/8 nuts with lock washer.

Here's a close up of one of my cell installed a Honda Pilot. The gasket I used for my smaller cell is the "orange" gasket you can get a lowes. It is a 6" X 6" 1/8 thick or the 1/16 thick. The 1/8 I like because you can really torque down the screws down to make use the cell will not leak.

[(D3F0)]

thanks and yea that is very similar to what I am doing that's good advice I only have 1/4 inch bolts though but they are lot better than what I had before the other ones were tiny. I'm using Plumbers Pack PVC shower lining double stacked with .080 inch spacing hopefully it will be alright.

[(D3F0)]

Alright here’s another update 11 photos the first thing I did was drill out everything for the bigger bolts so I started with my plates. This is a good picture of them it shows how they are very finely cross sanded.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/36.jpg

After the plates were drilled out I taped together 3 cutting board using one of the old ones as a template and drilled all the holes bigger and added 6 more for way better equal pressure. Also threaded the barb all the way through both of the cutting board to join them so the gap between them would not be filled with water then here is a pic

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/33.jpg


once all the holes were drilled i cleaned up the plates I drilled out bigger and started to assemble everything. Here is what it looked like with only the bottom on and no insulation on the bolts.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/37.jpg

I put it all together and tighten the bolts just enough to actually put it all together. Once it was in one piece i took out one bolt at a time and insulated with electric tape rapped around the threads. After they were put together I added the top washers on and it started looking better.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/38.jpg

[(D3F0)]

Here is what it Looks like all finished this top view is blurry sorry I didn’t realize it was till I put it on my computer.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/39.jpg

The bottom picture is much better and shows how the board bent just a tiny bit all I have to do to straighten them out is tighten certain bolts so no matter what now i can get and equal seal.. Hopefully I mean.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/42.jpg

The next picture is the same thing just a little more Zoomed the plate is not straight completely because unequal pressure this shows it clearly.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/45.jpg

[(D3F0)]

Now for a view off the side and top
http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/44.jpg

I’m much happier with this cell it sucks that it won’t last but I already learned a lot and it only took me a week to build. Below is another picture not as good but it is still a an ok shot

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/46.jpg

Now all I have to do is run the tubing to the reservoir and bubbler here is a picture of what they look like.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/47.jpg

The reservoir holds 3 liters of water and the Bubbler is very big it probably almost holds 2 Liters. I now have everything I need for Computer power supply to be converted this will be tomorrow Here’s all the parts I have ready.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/49.jpg

It’s not that hard to do there is a lot of tutorials online.

[(D3F0)]

Today I worked on my power supply for just a little bit.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/53.jpg

That’s all I did I so far all the wires have been stripped. I plan on using a Voltage Regulator with a Pot on the ground wire to control my volts from 0 to 24 volts. To get 24 volts I will use the 12v- and the 12v+ to add up to 24 volts. http://www.instructables.com/files/orig/F2D/LMFU/FYYNECNH/F2DLMFUFYYNECNH.jpg The only problem is that I won’t be able to get over 3 amps once I get over 12v until I buy a better voltage regulator online.

[koya1893]

I tried those PC power supply about a year ago. they are not really all that good to use for testing, because if you cell is drawing a huge amount to amps, you will not be able to determined that because it will shut down when the amp being draw is higher than what it is supplying.

If I am not mistaken the highest amps you can draw from group certain wires is 8 amps. I try to build a cell to draw at least 10 amps from the cold start and then monitor it how much it will draw as it get hot from long term usage. Just use you car or truck batt with good leads to power up your cell. then you have a solid documentation of what it will use for final installation.

[(D3F0)]

Thanks for the response I’m not disagreeing with you but I believe It depends on the computer power supply really some of them you can actually draw 70 amps at 12v no problem but those ones are more expensive and for that money I would rather just get a bunch power supply. A power resistor between +5v and ground or +12V and ground is needed to fool the power supply to run good without the load it will just shut off. Also some of them need a wire that connects to 3V, 5v or 12v wire with a ground to keep from shutting off while under load. Maybe when you tried this something like that got messed up or you used a power supply that was not enough watts for your cell I think at least a 250 watt one is ideal. I also think you can draw a lot more than 10 amps because video games these days take beast video cards that eat watts. A NVidia Video Card these days use about 250 watts and only have 14 wires total connecting them to the PSU. But still after all that I’m going to use a battery to test my cell giving me exactly 13.9 volts and 20 amps while on the 1.5 amp trickle charger. Btw I only have 8.9 Sq. inches of active surface area so my cell will not even need over 9 amps.

[Bhart]

D3F0,
Instead of using electrical tape, I use 1/4 bolts and insulate them with 3/8" od, 1/4" id tubing. I cut the tubing length just short of what the total stack dim is.

[lhazleton]

D3F0,
Instead of using electrical tape, I use 1/4 bolts and insulate them with 3/8" od, 1/4" id tubing. I cut the tubing length just short of what the total stack dim is.

Good post. I didn't even notice the electrical tape. I use the 1/4" id tubing on mine & it works great!

[(D3F0)]

Bhart that is a really good point I have 25 ft of tubing that I completely forgot about it. Thanks for the good advice thanks a lot. I'm gonna test the cell with just tape rapped around the threads because I just finished tighten it all up.

[(D3F0)]

Today i tested the cell I used my PVC reservoir all set up without the cap to see what was happening. Then i took my cars battery and brought it inside and put it on the charger and used it while it was charging. I got it to put out 9.5 amps at 14.1 volts. I messed up at first by adding the KOH with my cell full of distilled water. Since it was full there was absolutely no production at all. I fixed this by taking out a little water and getting some KOH to get into my cell. Once some got into my cell it produced a pack of bubbles every 4 seconds and that’s it. Here is a picture of the setup I’m using for my Reservoir with the tubing.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/celltest.jpg

Here is a better view, notice how the water is turning brown.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/celltest2.jpg

I don’t understand why I can’t get any good production it seems like my cell is just a tiny bit better. The Pipe has exactly 2 liters of water in it. With a about 2 tablespoons of KOH because I had to add a lot to get it to get into the cell. What am I doing wrong help me out haha.

[lhazleton]

If you've only got 2 tbsp.of KOH mixed in, you're not gonna get squat. You need to run a much higher concentration. Most of us up here in the cold run a 28% KOH mixture. That's roughly 3lbs. of 92% pure flake per gallon of distilled water.
The color the water is turning is the iron coming out of your plates. The cheaper the stainless, the more iron.
Another thing I just noticed: You only have 1 gas and 1 electrolyte port. Next time you tear it apart, add another of each. Everything will flow much better.
Also, you'll get better production if you hook your system up using jumper cables to a running car. Using a battery an a charger isn't the same.

[(D3F0)]

Thank you so much that was such an obvious mistake I don’t even think i used a full 2 teaspoons haha, I forgot that I had to use around 28% of KOH. In my case this would be 36 tablespoons or 2 and 1/4 cups of my Drain Opener for 2 liters of distilled water. So I was only using 5% of what I should be hopefully tomorrow when I test it out again I will get 95% more production. Also yea that’s a good point if I added another intake would that mean I have to drill more holes in my plates or could I just add another one through the cutting board at the top of each side.

[Bhart]

D3F0, In a previous post you showed us a picture of your supplies. I noticed you had a clamp meter, does it measure dc amps or just ac amps? The cheaper meters only measure ac amps.

[Bhart]

Your build is coming along really well. keep up the good work.
Lee had suggested in another post to add a second electrolyte outlet from your reservoir so you can feed your reactor from both sides. After doing this the flow of hho out the top is much smoother. I also added a second hho feed tube back into my reservoir as well.

[(D3F0)]

http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=4439164 that is the meter I am using I think it works for both DC and AC. Today I am going to try again with just more electrolyte I will later add another Feed on the other side.

[lhazleton]

Just a couple of things:
The clamp meter looks like it will read DC, but only above 40 amps. Might as well try it.;)
Running an additional inlet line will help somewhat, but what's more important is adding the second line for the gas. When the H2O breaks down through electrolysis, the volumetric expansion is incredible. If the gas can't escape fast enough, the back pressure will force the electrolyte out of the individual cells. Lower E/lyte level = lower production. It's like putting a set of headers on a car. You need to keep the cells as flooded as possible.
There will be no need to cut additional holes in your plates, just in the endplates (cutting board). One at the top on the back & one at the bottom on the front.
More to it than you thought a month ago, huh? Just wait until you're ready to install it in your car & we get into all of the electronics!!!:rolleyes:

[(D3F0)]

Yea that makes sense I will add both another intake and exhaust port before I test again hopefully I can actually get it to produce something. I thought the amp meter would read less than that dam. I was thinking for some reason that I had to do something with more holes but I have holes already in spot that was dumb question nvm haha. My car is a 1995 Subaru Impreza coupe it has a ej18 motor that shouldn’t be too hard to tune. 1.8L of pure Fury I can’t wait to start pumping some Hydrogen in it. I’m putting a 2.2L in it soon though once I get it all ready to drive since because right now I’m fixing all the rust and putting a bunch of crap into it so I can pass inspection. Im in school I will have some updates later.

[lhazleton]

For your size engine, you only want to introduce 1LPM of HHO max.. You should be able to get that much production with your reactor.

[lhazleton]

D3,
This is a quickie video I just shot of my reactor.
2.4LPM at 30 amps. 6.35 MMW. You should be able to see how the plumbing is done, even though the mounting bracket is mounted.
This site won't allow vids, so I'll just post the link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zea_R3BByb8

If you'd like to see some of my other stuff (mostly HHO), go here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/LeeHazleton?feature=mhum

[(D3F0)]

Thanks for the advice im rebuilding it right now and I am realy happy I only need 1 liter for my whole engine haha excellent.

[lhazleton]

You'll get your 1LPM. Then, when you want to do a really good build (one that'll last), we'll talk.
A 6x9 7 plate/6 cell reactor will give you that & it would be about 1" thick.:D

[lhazleton]

Just thought of something. Check and see how powerful your alternator is. Some of the 4 bangers come with a really low output alt. & may not be able to handle the constant load of the reactor. You may have to upgrade.

[koya1893]

Just thought of something. Check and see how powerful your alternator is. Some of the 4 bangers come with a really low output alt. & may not be able to handle the constant load of the reactor. You may have to upgrade.

Good point Lee, matter of fact if you have anything closed to 70K miles on your car I recommend just replacing it or have it rebuilt to a higher amps Alt. that way you don't have to worry about it when you finally hook up a system and eventually wearing out the Alt when you least expect it. One of the initial question I ask my cliets is the mileage on their car or truck. If they have a high mileage and it is the original Alt I recommend rebuilding it to handle the draw of the system and when the A/C is on.

I had one client elected to run a system that draws 25-30 amps on an old Alt, drove to Mrytle Beach for bike week, his alt died on him halfway. Your charging system must be in top shape to handle a system or you are asking for trouble.

[(D3F0)]

Alright so i updated the cell and followed everyone's advice. It did much better than before I actually got it to produce. Here are some pictures the first thing i did was add tubing to protect the threads so it looked much better and held the plates in much better.

I added another intake and exhaust
http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/SIde.jpg
here is the picture of the screws protected
http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/Side3.jpg

The threads have some residue on tape left from them but its fine.
here is the other side

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/Side2.jpg

The screws fit better and Now its a lot easier to get the plates perfectly lines up.

[(D3F0)]

Then I added my new ports for the reservoir

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/resivoir.jpg

It looks much better now I like the way its going to be easy to keep the circulation good now.

I also did the same thing for the dry cell

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/Rebuild2.jpg

The cell did ok but I did not tighten it down a little bit so it leaked I didn't torque it down nearly as much as I did the last time it was put together.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/Setup.jpg

here is a picture of my setup it worked good but I did not get to check how much it was making. I used the right amount of KOH and it worked much better. Thanks for all of your help.

[(D3F0)]

Now the only problem while I was playing with the bubbles of the HHO coming from the Cell, My friend made a by mistake and lit a bubble that was too close to the top tip of hose coming from the reservoir, which blew up right back into everything, it was funny because before he did this I took a couple steps back from him and my moms BF because I knew that they weren't listening to me and all of sudden the whole thing exploded. It was so loud it hurt. We blow a hole through my roof with a 4inch screw cap. The hole was a perfect fit for the cap with under a millimeter of space to around the cap. We didn't even notice it blew through the roof till bout 10 seconds after when we couldn't find the cap, turns it out it bounced off the wood up there and sat on the inside of the ceiling.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/hole.jpg

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/Hole2.jpg

Luckily that was the only thing that happened and not much water popped out. We all learned a good lesson today. Use a bubbler and a flashback if we are going to lighting any of the bubbles take a look at how clean it blew through the ceiling. Clean hole with no cracks at all its amazing how much power HHO has in it. I basically made a potato gun that shot a cap through my roof. I love HHO!

[lhazleton]

LOL! Well, at least now you're getting some production. Lucky nobody got hurt.
If you're gonna light the bubbles, do it the right way: First, do it outside! Run the hose that's supposed to be going into a bubbler into a pot filled with water and make sure the hose is at the bottom. Now comes the fun part. Put a little dish detergent in the pot and let the sucker rip! All of the soap bubbles will be filled with HHO. Turn the reactor off, remove the hose & toss a match on the pot. Just be sure you have cool neighbors. It's even better when you do it at night!;)

[(D3F0)]

That sounds like a crazy amount of fun. Thanks for the great idea I bet its a lot safer than blowing off bubbler caps. Wow looking at the perfect hole in the kitchens roof makes me laugh, good thing my mom didn't kill me. All this work was definitely worth it I learned so much from this tiny dry cell. This weekend I'm gonna see how much it puts it out. Also I am going to get a quote for how much the better 316L stainless steel Is. But now I just have to workout what I am going to build and how much exactly the steel is going to be.

[Bhart]

You don't suppose your mom could use more lighting in the kitchen, looks about the same diameter that would be needed for another flush mounted light?

[(D3F0)]

Yea I thought of that too it not a problem or anything I will probably just patch it haha

[BioFarmer93]

.....and all of sudden the whole thing exploded. It was so loud it hurt. We blow a hole through my roof with a 4inch screw cap. The hole was a perfect fit for the cap....

Oh man, that's even better than my 4th of July story..:D:D

[(D3F0)]

Haha it was so funny after we realized what happened. BTW do you have any threads about your full build. I'm really interested in it.

[(D3F0)]

Today I put the HHO generator back together and took it to my friends house and tested the output there. The generator made about 1 liter per minute. It filled a little water bottle in 32 seconds. After about 30 mins the water was at 110 degrees. Unfortunately by the time I was ready to finally get some some more test in it was dark and 30 degrees outside and I only had 20 mins till I had to leave my friends house so me and my buddy decided to have some fun. We started launching rockets of HHO here a video of a 2 liter bottle being set off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SzwMht5jyC8

Also here is another video to just do a test to see what happened the other night in my kitchen when the reservoir exploded. Listen closely at the end you will hear the cap come down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKL1tPbpHus

[(D3F0)]

before I went to bed tonight I decided to take my cell apart and clean the plates off so they don't rust in the cell. I was very surprised that after just under a 1 hour of use total the plates looked bad. A layer of crap build up on the plates mainly on one side. It was strange so I the took all the plates out and took pictures of what they looked like on both sides.
This is why no one should ever use 430 stainless steel.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/Rust12.jpg

The next picture is the back of the plates notice how the plates corroded

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/Rust11.jpg

I want to use my cell a couple more times before I start a new generator build.

So I took all the plates and used wire wheel on all of them until i got all the crap off. It almost seems like are back to normal because the corrosion did not ruin them it was just a thin layer on top. Below is a picture of what they looked like after I cleaned them

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/Cleaned.jpg

Once they were cleaned I took everything apart and put them out on the table. Tomorrow I will put it together so that I can put it away till I have some time to test it outside during the day without it rusting up.

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd433/DEF0/HHO%20CELL/READYForwork.jpg

[(D3F0)]

that is pretty cool im geting my car all setup by doing stuff by chopping out rust and putting new sheetmetal in and stuff like that. hopefully i can get to 40mpg with the 2.5 liter in my 2400 pound impreza coupe. =) Also because of the gas prices that are slowly rising around here im thinking of buying a ton of do it your self kits and installing them for poeple around my town.

[lhazleton]

D3,
Glad to see you posting again. How's the reactor coming?

[(D3F0)]

the reactor is doing fine I haven't been using it much because I want to keep it so that I can save it for a long time and have the will power to build a better one. Ive been working on my car like crazy. As i said in the previous post i want to take advantage of the gas prices around my area and spread the word of HHO possibilities by selling and installing kits for people. I have been looking at a bunch of different ways to make a bunch of small 1-3 Liter kits efficiently without costing a ton of money. I'm debating buying a 4 by 8 foot sheet of 316l Stainless steel but I'm not sure yet because that sheet is around 300 to 400 dollars. So Ive been looking at do it your self kits like these what do you guys think?

http://www.greenfuelh2o.com/product_p/diy-hho.htm

[koya1893]

OKay let me be the one to burst your bubbles. First the kit in the link is similar to yours (equalizing holes are aligned to each other) major voltage leakage and not efficient. second you better experiment enought to have sold 80% of the trouble the average person would face with a system; leaking cell, overheating, re-fill cycle, big enough bubbler to prevent solution migrating to the engine, freezing, thermal runaway and not to mention the electronics involve. Oh yeah, make sure you can delineate that "THESE ARE NOT PLUG AND PALY" system.

The average person will think just install it and forget about it. Those of us who market their system (at least me) have tested and reversed engineered multiple system being marketed out there to make sure you have something cut above the rest.

How do you get there, spend time and money to create your own by taking all the teaching from others, experiment and research you've done. Another thing, 300-400 dollars for a sheet to 316L, try buying half to a dozen sheet at a time to meet the demand, the demand for a good system is out there. DO NOT I REPEAT DO NOT GO OUT THERE marketing something that will give this process a bad name because it does not work or it created a problem.

During my marketing I've encountered people who fell into the trap of the old wet cell, scammers, get rich quick people and had nothing but bad stories to tell. so if you are going to do this make sure you are offering something that will propell this process with great result and experience. Have a good day and good luck.

By the way, you better get some EFIE training specially on Honda's and Dodge. Yes, Dodge trucks are hard to crack (gas truck). You can focus on diesel, but you better have a efficient cell that will run for 8 hours without overheating.

[(D3F0)]

Alright thank you very much Koya so after reading all this very good information which is all very true. Soon I am going to buy a big sheet and get to work. The only thing I am wondering about is I want to produce generators that produce anywhere from 1-4 liters of HHO. This forum covers most of these questions in some detail but I still need some more answers, Ive read a lot but I am still a little lost so sorry to ask because the answers are prob somewhere on here but My main questions are how should I efficiently cut all this metal and gaskets and also what do you guys think the size of the plates should be. Ive read a lot about plate size but I am still a little bit lost. I almost want to build a 6x8 inch cell but I am not sure on how much current the big plates would draw, Also I don't want to use more metal for each cell than I would need to. For example If I was to build 4x6 inch cells I'm not sure if it would cost more money to get the production I would need while using the least amount of metal from the sheets.

[BioFarmer93]

#71
Today, 01:48 PM
(D3F0)
Beginner

I began this post with the above for a reason. Not to make you feel bad, not tout my experience over yours, not to insinuate that you are not making good progress (you are!). I started the post this way to remind you of that word beneath your screen name, and what it actually means. My friend, I have perhaps 50-100 times your level of experience with this stuff, and do not remotely consider myself well versed enough to go into business with it. You have only scratched the surface, please believe me.
By the way, there is a good thread over at the HHO Underground (www.nicksrealm.com) about amps/watts per square inch..
Don't get discouraged- just learn a lot more before you attempt to go into business with this technology and inadvertently contribute to the bad name that we fight against every day.:)

[(D3F0)]

Lol you have a good point I was just thinking for the future at the very most I wont start to get into business for at least another 3 months. When looking at the news and seeing gas prices going up like crazy my head starts going mad about the HHO. I plan on learning a whole lot more, I am just taking notes for now. However I am going to make a new build soon to learn more about making the most efficient cell I possibly can.

[koya1893]

Okay. My schedule just got re-arranged so I have time this morning. 3 MONTHs, since my retirement from the UNITED STATE NAVY I have more time on my hands than I know what to do with. the good thing about that is, I was introduced to this process as I was getting to retire and being onboard the most modern Air craft Carrier in modern world. Lots of smart people that makes the floating island move.

Five years before I entered this forum and started asking question to verify what I've research and read about it. I figured this is the best place to get my feet wet. Two years into cutting, drilling, welding and building up tools just for this. I decided to build one and strap it on to my first testbed (1987 Chevy suburban 5.7 TBI 7-8 mpg). It was a wet cell from a plan I got from the web (Smack design) what a waste of hard earned money.

I was introduce to many of the mentors in here, hence the drive cell came to life in my tickering. When I finally got the suburban mpg increase to 11mpg I knew I am on the right direction. Second testetbed 2003 Town Car 4.6 liter (Wife's car) Increase was and still is 48%. With both testbed I experience all what can happen to a cell, you read them. Then a friend volunteered his 2003 Ford F-150 5.4 liter, increase on it was 35% and quite running truck. then a diesel F-250, several other loyal friend volunteered their cars as my testbed, Toyota's, Honda (daughters car) and I even played with my vintage Bimmers. Then to make sure I can apply this to a modern vehicle, I purposely got a 2009 Lariant F-150, 5.4 triton engine with Ford newest electrical system onboard with wide band (AFR) sensors in front and narrow band on the rear.

My point in sharing these with you is 3 MONTHS will barely get you to figure out how to set an EFIE to yield results. Oh one more thing each custom installation for each of the vehicles I mentioned, the cell configuration was constantly being re-designed to meet each vehicles characteristic and performance to see any gain. what I mean is the Town Car is running without an EFIE, when my F-150 is running with two, one to handle the AFR sensor and another for the narrow band on the rear.

I know gas prices is climbing fast which is another formula for people with get rich mind set (I am not saying that is you). This particular times is what brings them out and ended up hurting and giving us tickerers a bad name.

I use to have a website for what I started, I took it down because my work was being compared with what was going on before I even started this path I am on. I have more people approach me now not having it active. I ASK YOU to be mindful what you are getting into and what the result can be if you are going this route.

Your question, How big and what size plates is a good indication you need to be a student for awhile before you offer this to someone. By the way, the system I am installilng are not cheap because they produce result, if they are cheap. Well, you get what you paid for. When you build one system and install them get phone calls from your clients to tell you how happy they are. You have arrived and can honestly made one step forward. My main goal right now it to eleminate emission, my 1972 LT1 is the first testbed for that effort. The last time I had it smog with a custom system, due to the Vette's limited room under the hood producing 2.0lpm. The emission result were close to a newer chevy truck.

Being a student for a life time is not bad. I live by this saying,

"Inspire others to be their BEST by being your best"

GOOD LUCK.