+, -, N circuit diagrams

[Saefroch]

I'm terribly confused by things like this: "+NNNNN-NNNNN+NNNNN-"

Attempting to draw that out, I get something like that looks like two series circuits in parallel. Is this correct? By my interpretation, the - and + represent connections to the battery and the "N" represents a connection from plate to plate. So if I'm correct, voltage is equivalent across both parallel circuits, but additive across each individual series, which would explain why the members of this site seem to like using "neutral" plates, since what that really does is install a series circuit and lower the potential. Right?

[BioFarmer93]

Don't feel too bad, I did not understand the need for neutral plates myself at first and caused all sorts of ill will on the board for quite a while.. the pos and neg in that representation you did do indeed signify connections to the battery or more correctly the power source, whatever that may turn out to be, but the "N" or neutral or "bipolar" plates are not hard wire connected to one another, they are connected electrically only by the electrolyte between them. This is also the case (electrolyte connection only) for any two plates that reside next to one another, be it +,N or N,N or N,-. In a Tero or bipolar style electrolyser (the type you are describing) the number of N or neutral plates used between positive and negative plates determines the cell or "gap" voltage between any two plates that reside next to each other. >1.4V ~<2.0V per cell depending on plate spacing & electrolyte concentration seems to be the sweet spot.

[Saefroch]

To me, I see an electrolysis apparatus like it's a circuit diagram, so solution is just a resistor. Anyway, something I'm still confused on is the whole reason for having bipolar plates. They seem to me almost entirely useless.


the number of N or neutral plates used between positive and negative plates determines the cell or "gap" voltage between any two plates that reside next to each other. Resistors are normally described with the equation Resistance = resistivity*(length/area), so instead of placing all those bipolar plates in the middle, why not just space out the electrodes? Here's how I see it in the math: R=#of gaps*r(l/a), so using the commutative property of multiplication, I can multiply the # of gaps by the normal gap length, and get a new gap length with the same resistance, correct? Haven't I just removed all the neutral plates with no change in voltage or other functioning of the cell?

[BeaverRat]

In very simple terms:

You cannot run an electrolysis cell off of 12 volts. If you had your plates organized like this:

+-+-+-+-

with all the pluses and all the minuses hooked up to their respective battery terminals, you would have 12 volts running between each plate gap.

If you now make a cell like this with N meaning a plate that is not connected to a power source, but still in the cell,

-NNNNN+NNNNN-NNNNN+

You would have around 2 volts per plate gap depending on the input voltage. Honestly, I have not bothered to look into why it works this way, but I can tell you that the N plates produce identical amounts of bubbles as the + and - plates, and using them is a way of reducing the plate gap voltage.

Of course, if you have a 2 volt PSU, you could just build a cell like this

+-+-+-+-

but it would have to be an extremely high amperage PSU (like 250)

[Saefroch]

Aye, in a parallel circuit, voltage across each resistor is equal to the equivalent voltage.

Running small series circuits inside of them causes the voltage across each resistor to drop, such that the sum of the voltages across each resistor in the series equals the equivalent voltage (or what it would have been if there was only one).

My question still remains, why not just space out the plates to increase resistance, instead of spacing them out then adding plates?


Of course, if you have a 2 volt PSU, you could just build a cell like this

+-+-+-+-

but it would have to be an extremely high amperage PSU (like 250) I hope you're not serious, because that would give you a current at each gap of about 62.5 amps.

[Saefroch]

I understand why you'd run a bunch of circuits in parallel to lower the current, or a large resistor or a bunch of resistors in series to lower voltage, but by adding in the neutral plates, you're breaking up one big resistor into a bunch of little resistors, so how does that change the total resistance (and thus heat generation)?

I'm not planning on building an HHO generator pthingy, but something like this
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/1452/picture2kz.png
Obviously not drawn to scale. The only purpose of such a device would be to produce hydrogen or oxygen independently, it currently being set up for hydrogen.


If you by remote chance that you can duplicate a cell that runs cooler, longer and produce at least 1 lpm with this config: -+ with 3-5" gap. Give me a ring I market it for you. I can, actually. Diamond heat spreaders. (http://www.diamonex.com/materials/cvd-diamond/?301Redirect) At one point they were almost used to run a traffic light off 6 LEDs, by running them at higher voltage and using the thermal properties of Diamond to cool the system from the resistance.

[BioFarmer93]

I totally understand the scientific curiosity, but neither Koya or I are bigtime electronics guys or "Teslas"... We are more the nuts and bolts, learn through experimentation guys, or "Edisons". To us, you are asking the wrong questions- like the resistance and heat thing.. See, we are not trying to make heat, we are trying to make HHO, so we would not look at that example from any other standpoint than that of someone that builds electrolysers, because there are already lots of companies out there that build water heaters- much more efficient ones than described.

I understand why you'd run a bunch of circuits in parallel to lower the current, or a large resistor or a bunch of resistors in series to lower voltage, but by adding in the neutral plates, you're breaking up one big resistor into a bunch of little resistors, so how does that change the total resistance (and thus heat generation)?

Simple- the closer the plates the less the resistance, the less the resistance the lower the heat, the more plates, the more HHO. That last part was a bit over-simplified since there is a lot of system balancing that has to go on, but hopefully you get the drift.

[myoldyourgold]

You might be interested in looking at Bobs system if you want to separate the gases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJeFk2gaRZE&feature=sub

[Saefroch]

the closer the plates the less the resistance, the less the resistance the lower the heat, the more plates, the more HHO. I fully understand everything but the last bit and the conclusion that should be reached.

Here's where I'm confused: Say you have 4 gaps with length 1 unit and resistance 2 ohms. Take out the bipolar plates and you should have 1 gap length 4 units with resistance 8 ohms. Correct? That leaves you with the same total resistance and heat output, correct?

Has anyone with a working HHO system with a bunch of bipolar plates removed them from the circuit and verified that there is an increase in heat output?

So why do more plates cause more HHO formation? Intuitively, this make sense to me, but I'm trying to understand from a scientific point of view. Is it because there is more surface area for the reaction to occur on?

Watched the video, but he doesn't provide enough technical information for me. Thanks for the link!

[myoldyourgold]

Look up his other videos. He has exactly how to build it. He as at least 4 or 5 videos some are just instructions. Here is a link to all of them:

http://www.youtube.com/user/vipond50

[Saefroch]

If etching the surface creates more gas production, it's probably the surface area. Thanks very much for the help, I think I understand these devices much better now, and may build some electrolysis device of my own.

I think it is very possible to explain the full process scientifically, but nobody with the required understanding takes an interest in this forum, so we just bumble around. Just look here (http://cheserver.ent.ohiou.edu/ChE430(530)/kinetics.pdf). I may try doing some calculations if I can manage to define all those variables. :(

[BeaverRat]

That is preciesly what most people think. I know how to build an electrolysis cell, and use bi-polar plates properly, but I don't actually care how every small detail works scientifically. Its like driving my car, Im not quite sure how everything works, but I know how to drive it.

[myoldyourgold]

Sadfroach, If you are serious and really want to understand what media blasting/cross sanding does other than surface area read this:

http://www.nicksrealm.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=484&start=440