mpg is worse with HHO?

[Greenpower Generation]

Hi all, i'm looking for a little advice, i have a friend who's just fitted a HHO kit to his 1996 300 tdi 2.5l diesel landrover, since fitting the kit his mpg is about 10% worse than normal?, the cell is putting out between 1 to 1.5lpm which i thought would be fine using my rule of thumb of using half the vehicles cylinder capacity in HHO, eg, 3000cc engine = 1.5 LPM HHO.
He's happy with the added torque at low end rev's and less exhaust smoke but needs the fuel consumption problem sorting.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Martin.

[Greenpower Generation]

Hmmm, i hoped someone might be able to shed a little light on this problem?, the only thing i can think is that he may not have adopted an economic driving style? he may be enjoying the low end power from the HHO but then flooring it through the turbo?
Any ideas anyone or am i on my own with this?

Martin.

[lhazleton]

Martin,
I've never done anything with diesel, but Ben (Koya) is really the expert in that class. He'll be back soon & I'm sure he'll help you out. Sorry I couldn't offer any assistance.

[Greenpower Generation]

Thanks for the reply Lee, i'll see what Ben has to say, fingers crossed he could have a rational explanation for the shortcomings.

thanks again, Martin.

[jwhhopower1978]

Hi all, i'm looking for a little advice, i have a friend who's just fitted a HHO kit to his 1996 300 tdi 2.5l diesel landrover, since fitting the kit his mpg is about 10% worse than normal?, the cell is putting out between 1 to 1.5lpm which i thought would be fine using my rule of thumb of using half the vehicles cylinder capacity in HHO, eg, 3000cc engine = 1.5 LPM HHO.
He's happy with the added torque at low end rev's and less exhaust smoke but needs the fuel consumption problem sorting.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Martin.

I have been running hho to my 1,9 turdo diesel ford for six mounth whit good results, around 15% - 20% better in L/100km.. whit aprox 1 lpm and the engine type is the same old combustions style as the MB engine, also these are whitout oxysensor=very easy install.

First of all, what is your current draw?

Second, are MAP and MAF in good condition?

third, what type of cell do hi use?

4, have hi done accurate milage tests whitout hho?

[Farrahday]

Hi all, i'm looking for a little advice, i have a friend who's just fitted a HHO kit to his 1996 300 tdi 2.5l diesel landrover, since fitting the kit his mpg is about 10% worse than normal?, the cell is putting out between 1 to 1.5lpm which i thought would be fine using my rule of thumb of using half the vehicles cylinder capacity in HHO, eg, 3000cc engine = 1.5 LPM HHO.
He's happy with the added torque at low end rev's and less exhaust smoke but needs the fuel consumption problem sorting.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Martin.

In theory at least, you can expect better results from adding a hydrobooster to a diesel fuels engine as there tends to be a lot more emissions of unburnt (effectively wasted fuel) than from petrol engines.

However, it all depends on the efficiency of the hydrobooster/electrolyser. Obviously an electrolyser producing 1LPM of hydroxy for 240 Watts of power is more efficient than one that provides 1LPM at 400 Watts.

An electrolyser must be able to provide hydroxy above a certain efficiency or else the gain in the combustion of unburnt fuel will not be enough to offset the power drain put on the engine due to the extra demands on the alternator.

Of course, if no modifications have been made to the car fuel/exhaust gas sensor, then this will likely be trying its very best to compensate for the unexpected additional oxygen in the system. I believe EFIEs were designed to overcome this problem in modern cars. Is he employing an EFIE?

I'm lucky that our Land Rovers are old Series 3s, so do not have the added complication of fuel/exhaust gas sensors to fool.

[Greenpower Generation]

Thanks for the reply guys, the cell is a 11 plate dry cell, 2x4n, its putting out roughly 1.5lpm at 15 amps, using KOH electrolyte, there's no EFIE or mass air flow enhancement, it's just plumbed into the inlet.
i used a similar kit on my ford focus 1.8 tddi with great results so i decided to make a few kits to sell on, i decided on a 4n plate config because in england car engine's are generally smaller than in the states with a 2 litre engine being the average for a taxi or family car, obviously using 4n instead of 5n the KOH concentrate does'nt need to be as strong and will be less corrosive on the cell extending it's life expectancy.
I'm starting to think the sensors are the problem here after listening to you guys, i'd better look into it asap!

Thanks, Martin.

[Farrahday]

Yep, that would be my first thought as the sensor will automatically try to compensate for the extra oxygen by introducing more fuel. Any car with a computer and fuel/exhaust sensors will not readily accept the addition of other gases without upsetting the fuel balance. Hence the need for an EFIE.

[jwhhopower1978]

I´m pretty sure that his car 1996 300 tdi 2.5l diesel landrover do not have any oxysensor.

[Greenpower Generation]

Your right, I've just done a search for a land rover 300 lambda sensor and it does'nt have one??

[jwhhopower1978]

generally oxysensors to diesel engines came year 2003-2005..

[Farrahday]

Your right, I've just done a search for a land rover 300 lambda sensor and it does'nt have one??

Then it is most likely down to the electrolyser not being efficient enough, and hence drawing more power from the alternator than can possibly be returned by the better burning of the fuel.

[Greenpower Generation]

That could be possible on an open bath steam machine or oversized electrolyser but it's quite unlikely on a small dry cell at 15amps on a 70amp alternator, although i did advise the guy to turn the pwm down and not to try pushing for too much HHO incase he was pulling too many amps which equates to something similar to what your saying except it's more a case of he's running it too high rather than it being inefficient, there is a point where the addition of HHO no longer becomes beneficial above a certain ammount so to be pulling extra amps for gas that's no longer assisting combustion would give negative results .... i need to talk to my friend with the land rover again and see how he's doing since turning it down, i'll ask him about the driving conditions as well because he's in scotland and if he's not driving on major roads it could be snowy?
thanks for the replies, any other suggestions are still welcome.

Martin.

[jwhhopower1978]

Well, I can tell that when I tested hho systems on my ford turbodiesel it show that if the cell run to hot the effect of hhogas disappeared (even whit low amps around 15amps).. the gas whas to high on water wapor, after 10 diffrent configs I find out that 5N was a nice compromise.

13,7v / 4N = 3,4volts is farly high, and the cell are producing alot of heat and watersteam..

If nothing other helps try to build a new cell whit 5N or 6N cells

[Farrahday]

That could be possible on an open bath steam machine or oversized electrolyser but it's quite unlikely on a small dry cell at 15amps on a 70amp alternator, although i did advise the guy to turn the pwm down and not to try pushing for too much HHO incase he was pulling too many amps which equates to something similar to what your saying except it's more a case of he's running it too high rather than it being inefficient, there is a point where the addition of HHO no longer becomes beneficial above a certain ammount so to be pulling extra amps for gas that's no longer assisting combustion would give negative results .... i need to talk to my friend with the land rover again and see how he's doing since turning it down, i'll ask him about the driving conditions as well because he's in scotland and if he's not driving on major roads it could be snowy?
thanks for the replies, any other suggestions are still welcome.

Martin.

Martin, I think you misunderstand me. Regardless of the current being drawn by the electrolyser or the alternator capability, the alternator has to do work to supply this current, which ultimately requires horse power from the engine. If the electrolyser is too inefficient, then the energy deficit (whatever it may be) is impossible to make up during combustion.

Is he running the gas through a bubbler of some sort? Are there any gas leaks?

[Greenpower Generation]

Hi Farrah, i'm wondering why you think the cell is at fault? 11 plate dry cells are quite common in HHO land, like i said already it's putting out 1.5 L ish at 15amps which is quite good, it does have a bubbler which the dude said was bubbling lots and the fact that he's feeling more torque and producing much less smoke from the tail pipe proves it's getting the HHO.
Do you by any chance sell HHO kit ?

[Farrahday]

Nope, I don't sell hydroboosters. Just trying to determine why your friend is not seeing any benefits when others are.

There are a lot of factors involved in adding a hydrobooster to an ICE.

The fact that standard Faraday electrolysers are less than 100% efficient even if designed and built to very exacting specifications, immediately gives us a loss to overcome. Inefficient electrolysers provide a far bigger initial loss to overcome.

Then the hydroxy combined with the hydrocarbon fuel must provide enough additional energy not only to cover the loss of energy required to power the electrolyser, but actually exceed it in order to show any gain in fuel economy. Margins therefore are very tight and the difference between producing, for example, 1.3LPM at 15 amps and 1.5LPM at 15 amps, might be all it takes to tip the balance one way or the other. Hence making 1.5L..ish might be the problem - emphasis on the 'ish'.:)