Running lean and Hot-vapor technology

[b1jetmech]

I wanted to bounce this off you guys because I am a fan of the late great Smokey Yunick.

Smokey built about a dozen motors using what he called Hot-vapor which the Air Fuel mixture was heated to 400 plus degrees, homogenized through a turbo charger and fed to the engine. The result...doubled the fuel mileage and horsepower!

Here's a good article from the 80's when Smokey built a Pontiac Fiero with the "old Iron Duke" 4 banger that was kinda look down upon...he turned it into a super car!

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_1009_what_ever_happened_to_smokeys_hot_vapor_ engine/index.html



Here's the set up:

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc39/b1jetmech/Misc Engine/hotvaporengine.jpg

Here's another one, a Buick V6 hot vapor engine. Notice: Smokey removed three pistons which made the motor a 3 cylinder. Horsepower claims on this one was close to 300! from half a V6!!!:eek: When first fired up and took it to 2500 rpm's horsepower was at 135 which was the factory numbers on the stock V6.

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc39/b1jetmech/Misc Engine/hotvaporv6.jpg

Car engines by and large are very inefficient which you all already know. What Smokey did is took the wasted heat energy from the radiator and the exhaust and heated the fuel to specified temps, atomizing it beyond what it regularly does and burns it. That's where it parallels with running HHO, it burns fast so there is less exposure of heat and more exposure to mechanical energy.

I'm really considering messing around with my vehicle, using it as a Guinea pig. It's a 99' Suburban with a 350 vortec. First I 'm putting on a smaller version of the 10" x 10" trucker cell. Then I'm converting it to a carb...yes I know, fuel injection is better but I want no computer interruptions and I'll need to mess with timing so the computer will be unplugged while a carb and HEI distributor will be installed. Originally I was converting to a diesel but I think I can get the mileage up with gas and won't sacrifice performance.

When the engine is converted to carb and the generator installed I'm gonna try for similar go by retarding timing and inducing more HHO snd see if there is a point of diminishing returns when I go from 3 liters a minute to 6 and maybe to 9 LPM on a 350. With each higher input of HHO the timing will be retarded further to keep pace with the faster flame speed.

Then if I'm crazy enough I want to build a hot-vapor motor(really nothing special. Must use a carb and "up draft" turbo because the turbo is a check valve. When the Air/Fuel mixture is heated up it expands greatly and the turbo or "homogenizer" (what Smokey called it) prevents back flow and of course, afterwords the A/F mixture is heated to the 450+ degree temp from the exhaust and goes into the engine. The turbo ran a psi of only 4 lbs wasn't much.

With a set up like this detonation will be an issue. Smokey stated there is a threshold to pass in order for detonation won't be a problem. I will try on a motor that I'm willing to sacrifice if you know what I mean;)

There's a junk yard a couple of miles away that you pull your own part type of a place and motors are $200 regardless what they are. So a replacement motor for testing isn't too expensive to replace.

The air fuel ratio of this was around 22 to 1 so it's very lean. Smokey had this patented but left out a few details and took them to the grave with him. One of them was the cam profile, running some boost, the engine doesn't want valve overlap so I might need a custom cam. The rest I might have to find out if I pursue this.

So to recap,

1.)Converting my 99 Suburban 350 Vortec to Carburetor and hydraulic controlled transmission.

1.a) Add HHO from 3 LPM to 9 LPM while leaning out the motor and adjusting timing later monitoring EGT's.

Maybe 2.) build a Hot vapor induction system but we'll see. how 1.) works

Now for the constructive criticism you may have, because were here to learn from each other...here that NOOBs? LOL!

Chase

[Roland Jacques]

Awesome project. I'm a big fan of Smokey's hot vapor work also. I never saw that 3 cylinder before, talk about out of the box, wow.
It seems that most True leaders in their fields take quiet a bit to the grave :( . There are currently a few older (60s & 70s) HHO Gurus in a league of their own who may be doing to same thing.

There has been some talk on cracking Hydrocarbons at temps of 400 degrees in this thread http://www.fuel-saver.org/Thread-Hydrocarbon-cracking-System . Also many GEET motors show Major improvements from heating air/fuel. I dont fully understand the whys but the results speak for them-self. So i think you step 2 is going to rock. I think you are going to have great success with this. I wish i could afford to join you on this project i have a 1990 four door Bronco that would be perfect for this. You might consider water vapor for any detonation. it also gives a great kinetic energy boost as it expands

[b1jetmech]

When it comes to higher efficiency a faster flame speed is required. That's what hot vapor and HHO have in common, they both perform that. The faster the flame the more mechanical energy is extracted along with less heat exposure.

Easier said then done though.

An engine to use that resists detonation is a GM LT-1 and Lt-4. They have reverse cooling so the cylinders heads get cooled first then the engine block. There are vette owners with modified Lt-1's that have 13-1 compression and yet use 93 octane but aluminum heads are a must.

Chase

[Roland Jacques]

When it comes to higher efficiency a faster flame speed is required. That's what hot vapor and HHO have in common, they both perform that. The faster the flame the more mechanical energy is extracted along with less heat exposure.


Yes, i do agree that faster flame and less heat loss is the explanation for the majority of the results we see with HHO boosting. But when it come to heating Gasoline there may be more going on.

Some say there is a point at which adding enough heat to gasoline, that it can reverts/changes into simpler gases like methane's... making it basically a different fuel. MPG Mike was working on a project that saw some outstanding results. Like 900% increase in fuel savings. Similar to what some get with GEET type motors. MPG Mike claimed exposing gasoline to a high enough heat is Cracking the hydrocarbon chain. Then if you add more Hydro (super hot Water /steam / H2 O1) back into the mix in the right way you can make up to 9 times the fuel you started with. A new fuel all-together. the theories are all over the place and most of them are a good bit over my head. But to me, there seems to be enough evidence to support that more is happening than just better vaporization of fuel. It would be neat to know if Smokey every introduced water into his experiments.

[Richard Cranium]

b1jetmech

I read the full article where Smokey revealed the FULL Details on his revolutionary engine design.

It was Pontiac Iron Duke 151 cu/in with one piston removed.

He machined a head with NO VALVES !!
Instead of valves, he inserted Large Rods with slots machined in them to deliver the intake charge, & discharge the exhaust.

He had a supercharger with an electric clutch to start it, then a turbocharger to keep it running.

There was a Air Heater Basket on the exhaust to recycle engine heat which resulted in a 385F intake temperature.

A conventional engine with exhaust valves sticking into the combustion chamber would result in Detonation and or Pre-Ignition.

His Dyno sheet showed over 400hp and emmissions barely readable, including NOX which skyrockets with elevated combustion temps.

He said GM, Ford and Chrysler engrs came and looked at his setup and results, they were "Elated and Excited" ,, never to be heard from again.

A decade or so later the same mfg's sent engrs AGAIN at his summoning to inspect his revolutionary design. and again the same reaction, and same non-response.
[after a decade or so, the "Changing of the Guard" at GM, Ford, Chrysler did not know of the previous visit]

Smokey kept his "Valve-less" engine secret for years, after the 2nd attempt to get the Big-3 to start using it, with disgust he revealed his design.

Think of the force reduction to turn an engine with No Cam, Lifters, Rockers, Pushrods, Valves with stem drag and NO Spring force to overcome, massive !

I looked through many of his patents, this one has "oddly" vanished from any of the patent papers I found, hmmm, odd isn't it ?

A new computer Hard Drive with 15 writing layers a few years back vanished also, probably into M1-Abrams Tanks, F-22 Raptors and Trident Nuclear Subs.

Smokey's comment in this article said,
"We go though all the trouble to put heat into an engine, only to throw it away out the exhaust or radiator" [pretty close quote]

If you think about it, it's obvious why this design was not used..
The Big-3 and the Oil Companies are buddies, and imported cars are not going to buck the system either.

Usually devices to improve engine Life, Economy or Cost are bought up and put into "The Vault" never to be seen again.

I think Smokey was aware of such a probability and made "restrictions" to the Big-3 that caused the Engrs approval of it to be ignored by the upper mgmt.

On another forum, I posted regarding this engine and was promptly he-hawed, and I'm a very Senior Member for over 10 years and 8,000 posts
http://www.techimo.com/forum/imo-community/255460-engine-motorheads-unite-against-big-oil-big-3-a.html

Anyway, thanks for your consideration.
Sincerely
Doc

[lhazleton]

Doc,
LOVE your username LOL!Very witty.

[BioFarmer93]

Doc,
Welcome to the forum. I just want to say that it takes a comprehensive collection of spheres to call yourself that on THIS forum. I remember when that article came out in I believe, Popular Mechanics. I was amazed and relieved, thinking that within a couple of years we were FINALLY going to start seeing some real savings at the pump. Also, and this would have been about 1975, I remember hearing on the news for three straight days about a south Florida man that invented a 75 mpg carburetter, after that I never heard another word. It wasn't until just a very few years ago that I learned of the vault.

[Richard Cranium]

BioFarmer by that name I assume you're into Bio-Diesel, coolest new fuel in 100 years, IMHO.

Also, you're the FIRST person whom I've found that's even heard of his valve-less engine. That's his "secret" he refused to divulge for a very long time.

I don't consider Methanol @70,000 BTU/GL to be a viable alternative, but Bio-Diesel is another item entirely.

I emailed the Smokey Yunick website and got a response from his daughter or other relative.

"Mr Name Deleted

I am sorry that I don't have good answers for you. I do appreciate your sentiment for Smokey as well as your interest in forwarding his technologies. Unfortunately, if it's not written in his book, it's not recorded.
Smokey did not keep ledgers. There is no one left to answer.

All the best,
Trish Yunick "

I do plan to buy his book as I told the website operator, Smokey Yunick is the only person who I really wanted an autograph.

[BioFarmer93]

Hey B1 & Doc-
I had the idea for this- http://www.coatesengine.com (http://www.coatesengine.com/) -the infinite ratio transmission (used in fire trucks now) and the anti-reversionary marine exhaust system (came out about two years later) all when I was sixteen... Wish I would have had a business manager back then!:(
Anyway, it's good to see someone making a good job of Smokey's idea- I'd love to have a set of these valves on my diesel.

[myoldyourgold]

Welcome Doc. I enjoyed reading Smokey's stuff all the time. I think what most people miss is that the thermodynamics of an ICE is one of the most critical things one has to deal with. With just minor changes one can see measurable difference in HP as well as MPG. It has been looked at by many engineers and some very interesting things have been floated around about various methods of changing the use and wastage of the heat generated by an ICE. Smokeys valveless design had more to do with thermodynamics than anything else to make it work, at least in MHO. I think that is the real secret.

[Richard Cranium]

Smokeys valveless design had more to do with thermodynamics than anything else to make it work

Without a doubt you're correct.

Combustion temp's are limited in part to the "Red-Hot Exhaust Valve" sticking into the mix.

All the hoopla about vaporized fuel is fine, you still have to contend with the ignition temperature @ X/psi compression..
One of the aspects of fully vaporized fuel, is the left over solids that are present in all fossil fuels, this makes for a cleaner burn.

I'm sure everyone here knows that the fuel accounts for the vast majority of oil contamination.
Propane, though less BTU's per lb, when used with a good synthetic oil [not pseudo-synthetic] requires No Oil changes. Provided the air filtration system is clean.

I think Smokey was BS'ing us about his compression ratios as well as some of the other "data" he released.
This, IMHO, was just "smokescreen" for his real breakthrough, no valves.

Imagine the reduction in rotational resistance without all the valvetrain components.

[Roland Jacques]

This, IMHO, was just "smokescreen" for his real breakthrough, no valves.

Imagine the reduction in rotational resistance without all the valvetrain components.
Yeah i can see that.

For the same type of reasoning i see the MYT motor (Tiny Yet Massive motor). as being a phenomenal concept motor. No valve train AND no Linear to Rotary power conversion! edit, Forgot to add, it has the advantages of acting like a 2 stroke...

Suppose to have some news on it soon on it's going to market. We shall see.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfE8eiZvYXM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbOmUWlfw9c&feature=related

[Richard Cranium]

Man, I wish I had DSL or Cable or Satellite, anything but this 3k/sec dial up.

I'll google it anyway for text.

thanks
Doc

Got a link, here ya go for anyone else on 20-Mule Team dial-up from the show "Death Valley Days"

Anyone who remembers that show is like me OLD :)

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Massive_Yet_Tiny_(MYT)_Engine

[Roland Jacques]

this guy was running EGT's at 2600 deg F.

Im sorry,i must have missed that. I've gone back and still can't find these EGT numbers. Do you no where you saw this?

[Roland Jacques]

Chevymike why did you delete all your posts?

You had some interesting thoughts, i was still prossessing some of them.:confused:

[chevymike]

Chevymike why did you delete all your posts?

You had some interesting thoughts, i was still prossessing some of them.:confused:

Sorry, I had to delete them. I got a lot of life ahead of me and I'm going to improve on that design, can't have that info on the internet for everyone to see. For some reason it seems like no one else has figured it out yet. I'm actually going to use hho to lean out the gas even more, make more mileage and more power.

But what I can say is smokey's design didn't take advantage of the cooling properties of the iron/steel. Only of the heat properties of the engine. Use both, and it will be irresistible to manufacturers. The other thing I can say is he didn't use fuel injection, or make any effort to use it. I mean he wasn't using a ceramic engine there wasn't really a need to run that hot at all times. I'm going to improve on his design, with an option to switch to a 'high mileage' mode and make about 1.5 times the mileage and power he was making. As well as a 'power' mode that would make awful gas mileage but have 400-500hp on tap.

The 'high mileage' mode would use supplemental fuel in hho to lean out the charge even more using less gasoline. Theres a lot of variables that go into that I'm actually trying to work my head around getting exact standard amounts of h2 and o2 out of the hho system. And I have a few ideas to make the system completely stable and safe, I see a lot of people blowing up these tanks and things. But I don't know that much about these kits and cells that yall design.

I think that would be 2 sort of revolutionary designs, with one older one that no one seems to be able to figure out except me, so it will take a while. And I know I cant start for about 4 years. Its just life getting in the way.