Vinegar in a scrubber???

[b1jetmech]

When using a scrubber to keep the KOH vapors from entering the engine, how about replacing the water for vinegar to eliminate any KOH vapor?

Or, would it be overkill?

Chase

[myoldyourgold]

When using a scrubber to keep the KOH vapors from entering the engine, how about replacing the water for vinegar to eliminate any KOH vapor?

I am sorry to burst your bubble, but vinegar will NOT eliminate all KOH. The KOH that makes it into the engine is inside the bubbles not the outside. Plain water cleans the outside and so will vinegar. The real problem is what is inside the bubbles. The best thing you can do is to make sure your bubbles are very small. If you want to be extra safe use two bubblers where both brake the gas into very small bubbles. (Small is good in this case LOL) I have found long skinny bubblers work better than short fat ones. It is the distance the bubbles travel through the liquid getting the outside scrubbed that counts. That still does not clean inside the bubbles thus the need for small bubbles so only a very small amount makes it in and causes no damage. Hope that helps.

[Bhart]

Someone in the crowd suggested to use aquatic diffusers, anyone out there have any success with these. I just ordered four of them.


http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1560/Porous-Plastic-Diffusers/air%20stone/4

[keiththevp]

I have used them before, but I ordered an array of different micron ratings 20 to 100. 100 works well but they all clog to fast so I went back to the airstone.

[myoldyourgold]

have used them before, but I ordered an array of different micron ratings 20 to 100. 100 works well but they all clog to fast so I went back to the airstone.

Keith, I have used the defusers in the link Bhart posted for over 2 years. Some have 1000 plus hours with no problem. These are cleanable even with mild acids. I do not use a defuser when conditioning a reactor. After proper conditioning there should be no problem if your reactor is working properly. The biggest problem is people tend to over amp their reactors. Over amping can happen at low amp readings on the attached amp meter. If the reactor is not built right and not conditioned right you can get hot spots in the reactor where the amps are concentrated causing over heating and junk in your electrolyte even though the total amps are not to high. That is a whole subject in its self.

[b1jetmech]

Guys, ya'll the best!

Thanks for your input.

I think I'm going without a scrubber in my new trucker cell and go with TWO filters instead. The will lay horizontal, gas from the unit goes into one then to the other AFTERWORDS so they both are not used at the same time.

It should trap the moisture.

However, I'm still thinking on a flashback arrester just in case... the scrubber might still play a role.

Chase

[Roland Jacques]

One of the experiments I've been meaning to do for long while is right up this category.

Having a reactor chamber filled with aluminum wool. I believe the this would eliminated any residual KOH. you could even put the aluminum wool in a bubbler it would work to break up bubble also.

So not only should this eliminate any KOH, but the reaction will give you more H2. :)

[keiththevp]

Keith, I have used the defusers in the link Bhart posted for over 2 years. Some have 1000 plus hours with no problem. These are cleanable even with mild acids. I do not use a defuser when conditioning a reactor. After proper conditioning there should be no problem if your reactor is working properly. The biggest problem is people tend to over amp their reactors. Over amping can happen at low amp readings on the attached amp meter. If the reactor is not built right and not conditioned right you can get hot spots in the reactor where the amps are concentrated causing over heating and junk in your electrolyte even though the total amps are not to high. That is a whole subject in its self.

Like I said, it really depends on the size of the filter and what your electrolyte is, if you use 28% KOH like I was and too small of a micron filter, it WILL clog. I have repeated this test numerous times. But the filter in the link does NOT show it's micron rating, therefore it could be 1000 micron which is WAY bigger then what I was using. But to me, if 100 microns will clog then there is a chance the higher ones will clog. Since I develop these systems for commercial application in over the road trucks, I do not use anything that has a chance of failing. Especially because if it clogs up and stops the gas flow in your bubbler, this will blow your reservoir.

Also as far as cleaning the diffuser, personally the systems I make are near zero maintenance for a reason. People just starting out in this hobby as well as the average consumer WILL NOT do the required maintenance. Many people can't even change the oil in their car in the proper time period let alone completely disassemble a reactor to clean it.

[myoldyourgold]

Keith Sir, do you know what is clogging them up? Could you tell us more about your system, configuration. I to am interested in something that has very little maintenance, even though in the real world maintenance is a revenue stream that should not be over looked if it can be justified, cheap enough, with service available conveniently. I am also working on an in vehicle water distiller run off the exhaust with an auto refill because people are to lazy or stupid to follow instructions to use distilled water. Electrolyte concentration is still a maintenance issue and should be automated. Now you come to the price problem of such a system. My reactors reservoir has a pressure relief valve that vents to the outside atmosphere with a flash back arrestor on it and when it goes off pressure drops in the reservoir and the system shuts off. The valve has to be manually reset. This prevents the system over pressuring blowing up your reactor etc. I do not have it all automated yet but will. Maybe over kill but I run 10 to 12 pounds of pressure and need some safety devices to insure no problems. Better safe than sorry.

[astrocady]

Guys, ya'll the best!

Thanks for your input.

I think I'm going without a scrubber in my new trucker cell and go with TWO filters instead. The will lay horizontal, gas from the unit goes into one then to the other AFTERWORDS so they both are not used at the same time.

It should trap the moisture.

However, I'm still thinking on a flashback arrester just in case... the scrubber might still play a role.

Chase

JetMech,

Filters are okay, and I plan on adding one to my system someday. Nick posted some good instructions for making one a couple of months ago.

However, I would not uses them to replace the bubbler, I would only use one after the bubbler as I final safety measure. The main problem with the filters is you can't tell when they need cleaned/replaced. With a bubbler, a quick glance will tell you it's time to change the water.

Plus, once the filter becomes saturated with KOH+water, what will that do to the back pressure? That needs to be determined first, no matter what kind of filter you use, where you put it, or with or without a bubbler. I just haven't had the time yet.

Steve

[myoldyourgold]

I use strong ring magnets on the intake line as a filter and have no problem of the diffuser plugging up. On a clear hose you can see when it needs to be cleaned. The attached one has 102 hours of run time on it. This keeps all magnetic junk out of your reactor helps keep you electrolyte clean especially during conditioning. I also use single rip stock filters to protect my pressure gauge and one way valves from any electrolyte or moisture. These filters have not been in service long enough to know how well they work as far as plugging up etc. Easy to make though.

[Stevo]

I use strong ring magnets on the intake line as a filter and have no problem of the diffuser plugging up. On a clear hose you can see when it needs to be cleaned. The attached one has 102 hours of run time on it. This keeps all magnetic junk out of your reactor helps keep you electrolyte clean especially during conditioning. I also use single rip stock filters to protect my pressure gauge and one way valves from any electrolyte or moisture. These filters have not been in service long enough to know how well they work as far as plugging up etc. Easy to make though.

Alright, those two ideas are both excellent. What is all the black stuff around the magnets? Also, are they neodymium or ceramic? I want to try the rip stop using a large surface area very bad. Does this completely eliminate water vapor all together?

[myoldyourgold]

Alright, those two ideas are both excellent. What is all the black stuff around the magnets? Also, are they neodymium or ceramic? I want to try the rip stop using a large surface area very bad. Does this completely eliminate water vapor all together?

Stevo, the magnets are neodymium. The material is magnetic junk coming off the 316L SS. In the conditioning stage I double the number of magnets and change it every 30 minutes. It never stops completely but in a reactor which has over 200 hours on it you only need to clean it every 3 to 5 hundred hours and it never gets worse than the picture in fact not as much. I have ball valves on either end and quick disconnects so it is easy to change. It makes a difference in performance because you do not have that stuff building up in the in your electrolyte. It is so fine you do not see it without the magnets but if left in there it will discolor your electrolyte and lower you performance.

I do not understand your comment about ripstop nylon (bad ?). I am not sure but the type I am using I believe does not prevent all moisture from going through but does limit it. It seams to prevent most of the moisture before it goes through any type of bubbler/scrubber. I am in the process of testing these little filters I have made in a number of places. It is to soon and I have so much on my plate at the moment that it will be a while before I compile all of the data. It is all I can do to just look at each of the tests I am doing every day and record what I see. Time is a real problem. The ripstop nylon I am using is non coated and you can breath through it. If you use the coated type it will react with the electrolyte and pollute the electrolyte if being used in certain places and is to restive for my purpose. I am using them mainly to protect one way valves by limiting the amount of moisture and preventing electrolyte build up that makes them fail. One way valves fail very quickly if they get coated with electrolyte and are allowed to dry and of course this happens when you shut things down for a while. I am testing to see if they stop more moisture that is electrolyte rich and less moisture that has been through a scrubber. Time will tell. Hope this helps.

[keiththevp]

Myoldgold, your thinking in the same direction I do, SAFETY and I like it ... lol. What clogs the filters is the KOH. At high concentrations you will bubble off WAY more KOH then low concentrations. I have evaluated two options for freezing, a heater or high concentration. Both have their own flaws but the best is the high concentration. It solves a LOT of problems. As far as the water and getting brown gunk or residue or anything like that my suggestion is to use 316l or titanium or nickel at the proper amp rating. I never have anything but clear water and I have cells that have been in the field for over a year in testing. But remember 1 year of testing to these over the road trucks is extreme. One of my guys has put 15k miles or more on it per month and runs nearly 24 hours per day. As far as the filters go, they all will clog, but the key is how long can they last. So I change out the WHOLE bubbler assembly once every 6 months(filter is built in and hard to remove). And the water premixed is sold every month. So yes their is maintenance but a simple dump and fill once per month and every 6 months snap off old bubbler and install new is very minimal maintenance.

As far as the reservoir all of my units have flash protection and auto resetting blow off valves, so no my reservoir would not blow up if the bubbler clogged, however there are very few people on here that have put as much effort or safety features into their system as I have. Mainly because they use it for themselves and I make something for the general driver. These days you have to make any product you sell STUPID proof or pay the consequences.

As far as showing my system I am still in testing stage and in the process of patenting so I can't do that but I am always willing to share what I have learned in the last 4 years I have been testing since I feel this is only right. There are many folks on here that have shared a great deal of information with me along my journey and I always like to repay that when I can.

So if your having problems with your system or safety issues I can give ideas to solve them because I think after all the testing I have done we have finally addressed all the issues.

My first test truck was a dump truck that goes off road in construction 12 hours a day. I think I went through 5 different set-ups before I found one that wouldn't fall apart due to the stress these trucks see on a daily basis. Most people don't understand how hard semis are on parts, connections, bolts, vibration, you name it it can break.

[Roland Jacques]

I'll second the magnet idea is a great one. i guess you use the epoxy coat neodymium magnet.