Negitive Results Chevy 2006 Silverado

[forumsKDC]

Hello,

I have been working this HHO thing for a long time (7,000 or so miles) and have not had any positive results. I put about 35k miles per year so it does not take long to do my testing.

I have a 2006 Chevy Silverado 5.3L gas with 125,000 miles.
Purchased a single cell generator from HydroClubUSA.
I added a second reservoir between the bubbler and the intake to capture any liquids before they go into the intake.
Purchased my KOH electrolyte from www.essentialdepot.com.
At 1.5 oz of KOH is about 12 amps and produces about 1 liter of gas in 80 seconds. So I know the HHO generator is producing something.
Since I use this truck for work, I have logged every tank of gas, with average speed and miles per gallon. Before I purchased my HHO stuff, the life time average of the truck is 16.23 miles per gallon. Average gas mileage for highway speeds is a around 18.1 MPG. Do a lot of highway driving.

1. Round one of testing.
Gas millage dramatically decreased when using the generator. Used anywhere from 1 oz - 2.5 oz of KOH per quart of distilled water. Did about 3,400 miles of testing.

2. Round two of testing.
Read more about HHO and discovered on new car the computer will compensate for the extra oxygen produced from the HHO Generator and will dump more gasoline. Thus lower millage.
So I purchased the FS2-HHO Performance chip from Volo. Absolutely no difference. Did about 2,800 miles of testing.

3. Round three of testing. Someone mentioned that my spark plugs most likely need to be change and they suggested PulseStar. I bought them turned off the HHO generator to get a new base line MPG. Did about 1,500 miles of testing. Wow! never got 20MPG before on the highway. I think these things really work.

4. Round four of testing.
Cleaned the HHO generator, started with 1.5 oz of KOH per quart of distilled water. Turned it back on, drove about 200 miles to get the generator stable, reset the FS2-HHO chip. 1,000 miles later, still no positive results.


HHO generators seems logical, but does this really work????? I see all kinds of reports of how great this is, but never have seen anyone in person that has a generator. Can not find any on-line information of anyone that has done it on a Chevy/GM with the same year and type of engine.

Any thoughts would greatly be appreciated.

Have a great day!

[myoldyourgold]

KDC, Do you know what the active surface area of your reactor is? If not measure the diameter of the O ring seal and let us know, so we can calculate it. If I am right your reactor uses rubber O rings to seal each cell. If I am wrong let us know. That particular design is not the best. The reason we need this information is so we can calculate what your reactor is really able to produce with out producing a lot of steam. Have you ask for assistance form the manufacturer? If not I suggest you do and let us know what they say. Thank you Sir.

[forumsKDC]

Thank you koya1893 and myoldyourgold for your replies. I will gather the requested information/photos and post.

[forumsKDC]

Hello,

Hope all is well with everyone. Here are answers to previous questions from koya1893 and myoldyourgold.

1. The diameter of the O rings is 3 inches.
2. 9 plates, o-rings between each plate.
3. Plate connections;
negative,none,none,none,positive,none,none,none,ne gative.
none means I could not see any connection to positive or negative.
4. I did see an article regarding that a good ratio is 1/4 liter of HHO gas per minute per 1 liter of engine size. koya1893 you stated about 1/2 liter per minute per 1 liter of engine size. I will ramp up the ratio. At one time I had 30 amps on the meter, but did not have the Volo Chip yet. Performance did not change.
5. I have 4 o2 sensors, two before the catalytic converter and two after. I am going to bring my case before the Volo chip maker and work that angle until it seems hope less or good results.

Links are of the installation and a bubble test. I saw this bubble on a video and thought I would give it a go.

Installation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHlUsJN3pUs
Popping Bubbles
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCOTICRgtNg


I added the small round reservoir to trap liquids. Some time during my testing I took the air intake of the manifold and notice a corrosion build-up just before the intake louver. It did not look good and was very concerned. Did some more research and discovered why.

My current installation is a temporary setup, my goal is to move the generator lower into a cavity in the center of the bumper and move the bubbler further back in the engine compartment in a space designed for a second battery. To do this, I will have to get creative with making support brackets. I would like to see some positive results before I start spending time making brackets.

I will contact Volo about their chip and push them to see why it is not working.

Thank you for your questions and information.

Have a great day.

If there is anyone that lives in or around the Houston area that has a working installation, sure would love to see it.

[myoldyourgold]

Hope all is well with everyone. Here are answers to previous questions from koya1893 and myoldyourgold.

1. The diameter of the O rings is 3 inches.
2. 9 plates, o-rings between each plate.
3. Plate connections;
negative,none,none,none,positive,none,none,none,ne gative.
none means I could not see any connection to positive or negative.
4. I did see an article regarding that a good ratio is 1/4 liter of HHO gas per minute per 1 liter of engine size. koya1893 you stated about 1/2 liter per minute per 1 liter of engine size. I will ramp up the ratio. At one time I had 30 amps on the meter, but did not have the Volo Chip yet. Performance did not change.
5. I have 4 o2 sensors, two before the catalytic converter and two after. I am going to bring my case before the Volo chip maker and work that angle until it seems hope less or good results.


Your reactor has 2 stacks each with 4 cells. The active area is 4.713 sq. inches. You should not be running this reactor at more than 5 amps. Over amping it will just make heat and steam not much gas and will destroy the plates. It will also pollute your electrolyte with CR VI a no no. The reactor also has 3.45 volts per cell. This should not exceed 2.3 volts. This just makes way to much heat too. That is some of the bad news and one reason why you will never see any gains. This reactor is a very wasteful design. If you went to square gaskets it would help a little possibly. I do not know the actual size of the plates to really determine that. You would need to have at least 5 N (bipolar plates) in each stack so you need to add a total of 4 more plates, 2 in each stack. This still would not be enough. You will need to make over 2.5 lpm in order to see some results if everything else works. I know you will not be able to do that at the 5 amps this reactor should run on. It will take a 6" X 6", 6 cell (5 N) 3 stack to achieve this with out over amping. -nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+. You can run this one as high as 37 amps and not over amp it. Now as far as Volo goes ask the manufacture to hook you up with someone with your engine that is having success and go to school on him. If not you will need a Quad digital EFI and possibly a MAF/MAP adjuster too. That is a lot to digest and I hope all who read this learn something before you go and spend your money. There are some basic rules that are a good starting point and have been posted many times please everyone learn them and follow them. It will save you a lot of time and money.

I just watched the videos and two thing I would like to mention. Your bubbler needs to have much more liquid in it and a diffuser if it dose not. The bubbler technology is something you might want to study in order to avoid expensive engine repairs in the future. There is a lot posted about this on this forum. The second thing is that reactor just is not putting out enough to do much if anything for your car. You will need a reactor that has a study continuous stream of bubbles. You should not be able to count them. The water should be bubbling up like a fountain at 2.5 to 3 liters per minute.

[forumsKDC]

Hello,

Thank you myoldyourgold for the specific information. There is so much information that it is hard to see the truth.

Nice to see calculations.

I will see what I can find for diffuser bubbler's, larger surfaced cells and see what Volo says about my issue.

I try to keep the liquid level below 60% because any higher, the liquid goes out to the engine, thus the reason why I have that small round bottle to catch any liquids. Just curious, what is your opinion of that design to catch any liquids?

1. In your post you mentioned 6 cells to achieve 2.3 volts per cell or lower. Is there any gain to lower the voltage by added more cells? A seven cell would be 1.97 volts, an eight cell would be 1.75 volts.

2. Is it better to have a three stack single unit or three separate one stack units?

3. Is the square flat plate design the best design for a generator?

4. I saw in an advertisement of someone's cell that the more plates, the less amps required for the same production rate. Is this true?

5. You mentioned a 6 x 6 square cell. If the surface area is the same, can a cell be rectangle? Lets say 4 x 8!

6. Which is better, both hose connections on the same side of the generator, or one on either side of the generator?

7. You showed a 19 plate configuration -nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+
I see a lot of 21 plate designs -nnn+nnn-nnn+nnn-nnn+
Seems like a 21 plates design will not get the voltage down!

So far the best price I can find for a 19 plate 6x6 $155 includes shipping.

I wish I could see even a small gain before I spend more money!

Again, Thanks for your valuable time in responding to my post.

[forumsKDC]

Thank koya1893, I get the picture?

I notice that your reactor has the two hose connection on opptisite sides. Does that make a difference as compared to both hose connectors on the same side?

Thanks

[astrocady]

Just thought I'd but my 2 cents in to verify what Carter and Ben have said.

Your main problem is your reactor it way to small for your engine. I wouldn't start blaming volo yet -- get a properly sized reactor and if you still don't see appropriate gains, then call volo.

If I were building a system for your truck, I would use one of my large reactors, that has thirteen 8"x10" plates and would set the PWM at 45 amps where that system would produce a little over 3 LPM.

Judging from the bubbles in your video, your reactor is producing only about 1/4 lpm -- maybe less.

Steve

[myoldyourgold]

Hello,

Thank you myoldyourgold for the specific information. There is so much information that it is hard to see the truth.

Nice to see calculations.

I will see what I can find for diffuser bubbler's, larger surfaced cells and see what Volo says about my issue.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1560/Porous-Plastic-Diffusers/air%20stone/4

P3534 .22cfm should do the job.

I try to keep the liquid level below 60% because any higher, the liquid goes out to the engine, thus the reason why I have that small round bottle to catch any liquids. Just curious, what is your opinion of that design to catch any liquids?

Check out Koyo’s two bubbler system or astro's and they can explain it. I use a vacuum operated solenoid as a vacuum break. It is naturally open so when you turn off the key the reactor sucks air into the system. It has a one way valve and flash back arrester in this part of the system too. It is much more expensive and maybe over kill.

1. In your post you mentioned 6 cells to achieve 2.3 volts per cell or lower. Is there any gain to lower the voltage by added more cells? A seven cell would be 1.97 volts, an eight cell would be 1.75 volts.

There are a couple of things here. One is that usually there is some voltage drop and so you really are only getting 2 Volts or even slightly less depending on how good your connections are and wire size. Taking that into consideration 6 cells is what most like. Now if you have very good connections and the right size wire and no, to little loss, then a 7 cell is preferred IMHO. That also goes for eight cells but I am not sure the added expense in wire and connections are worth it for eight cells. I am going to test an eight cell in the next few weeks.

2. Is it better to have a three stack single unit or three separate one stack units?

I think the only benefit is cost. 19 plates compared to 21 more tubing connection etc. Flow problems might be a lot less in separate one stack units.

3. Is the square flat plate design the best design for a generator?

This is debatable. In my study which would take more time than I am willing to spend to explain right now, it does in simple brute force. The square part has to do with bubbles coming up and finding their way out. With out an explanation of the science here it is very simply. The longer distance the bubbles have to travel the potential of them joining and making larger bubbles is greater and this has been proven to increase resistance, block formation of new bubbles, block bubbles coming from below, and create hot spots which could contribute to formation of CR VI. How much over square does this have to be to make a difference has not been tested or verified by me. There are a lot of very excellent over square reactors out their. They seam to perform very well. The question is, would they perform better if they were square. I suspect so, but by how much is unknown to me.

4. I saw in an advertisement of someone's cell that the more plates, the less amps required for the same production rate. Is this true?

I think they might have it wrong. Adding more stacks, not more plates in a stack would give you this result.

5. You mentioned a 6 x 6 square cell. If the surface area is the same, can a cell be rectangle? Lets say 4 x 8!

A rectangle lying horizontal has less active surface area because of the room the gas takes up at the top say .5 to 1 inch. A rectangle standing perpendicular will have the bubble problem explained above but if made right will give excellent results but maybe not as good as a square.

6. Which is better, both hose connections on the same side of the generator, or one on either side of the generator?

This is a long topic and has to do with flow. The object is to have equal flow, amount of electrolyte, and temperature in each cell. The middle cells of a poor flowing reactor will be hotter than the outer ones or one side will be hotter than the other. A perfect set up has everything equal!!! (Volts, amps, temp, electrolyte, flow etc) This can be helped by outlets and inlets on both sides in some reactors. There is a lot more involved here and has to do with where the gas holes are located on the plates, size, where the balance holes are and if all holes are insulated and on and on. No holes is ideal. You will find lots of information on this forum and others on this subject.

7. You showed a 19 plate configuration -nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+
I see a lot of 21 plate designs -nnn+nnn-nnn+nnn-nnn+
Seems like a 21 plates design will not get the voltage down!

You are right

So far the best price I can find for a 19 plate 6x6 $155 includes shipping.

I build mine from scratch and spend more than that on a reactor just in plates (22 plates).

I wish I could see even a small gain before I spend more money!

I wish I had a solution for you, but I do not, and unless you can find someone near you who has had some success and is willing to share their experience with you, you have only your research to go on. A quality reactor is expensive and gains are much more than the reactor!

Again, Thanks for your valuable time in responding to my post.

You are welcome. I usually can not spare the time and am going to be very busy in the days ahead and will have to limit my posting. I need some sleep. LOL


Results are indicative of the struggles many have had with reactors regardless of manufacturer. It is very difficult to implement on a vehicle that was not designed to utilize the improved combustion and cleaner emissions.

Even though it is difficult to implement on a typical automobile research of the technical literature has shown that when implemented correctly this technology can provide significant improvement. The published research shows that a gain is at least 20% and is experienced by many.

[myoldyourgold]

My recent design, although already being used but first for me. I have two exit hose on the top and one for feed hose, this cell makes more HHO so I thought I would give it a second hose to exit to prevent pressure build up in the cell.

Koya, I first must compliment you on your set up and the good results you have been getting. Very neat work. I also would like to point out that what you want to achieve in each cell is equal pressure and flow. By this I mean the pressure of the electrolyte input must be equal to the pressure on the top of the each cell. You might be achieving that by adding another exit port. If not the cell will not perform as well. The bottom pressure must equal the top pressure when running and at operating temperature. At start up the bottom might have more pressure and flood the cells. When you have equal pressure the electrolyte level stays the same and doesn't go up and down. The right amount of pressure also helps keep the bubbles small and thus results in a more efficient reactor. Keep up the good work. Have you had time to change the injection timing on your diesel?

[H2OPWR]

My time to tinkering lately is down to minimal (back to work helping our troops). No I have not, I've been trying to get a good look at the mount bolts on the IP and formulating how to do it. Thus far, what adjustment I've been making with the ALDA has shown great result. I turned it back 1/4 from where I had adjusted when I was getting 44 mpg mix driving, but this time I only drove the car to and from work total of 10 miles a day and to the gym and back. With the ALDA set at 1/4 from the original setting when I first got the car it is getting 27 mpg I consider that city. With this set up I notice more black smoke, meaning I am inducing a lot of fuel.

This last set up I turned it back to 1/2, it seem to have better accel and definitely quiter and smoother idle. The cell I have on it now it the one with two exit holes, yes I can see the difference in the size of the bubbles. I think the contributer to that is the technique Larry uses to eliminate voltage leakage. I've built four cell done that way and I have notice the bubbles are smaller. The first one I did not test because the guy was leaving for Sturgis, but called me twice telling me the new bike he owns meaning the system has really brought the bike to life, plus the additional 35 miles longer he can ride.

Every time I look around to get familiar to this car I always notice something I want to fix and I do. This week end I am re-designing the bushing for the shifter rod, I found one of the clip missing and no bushing on it while I was replacing the flex coupling on the drive shaft. I found out this is one of common problem to these cars and they are a pain to replace. So I am re-designing them.

Back to HHO matter. Thank you for those kind words, hence that is why I try to help those who are in need so I can share what I've learned here which made a big difference with my system. I don't know whose using Larry's method for cutting down on voltage leakage. It works, THANK YOU LARRY.

Thanks, I am glad someone else tried it and found the same success I have. It is simple and easy plus effective.

Larry

[forumsKDC]

Hello,

In a previous post, myoldyourgold mentioned 6x6 cell. Just to make sure, is the 6x6 the size of the active area, or the basic size of the 316L plates?

I see that there is a diamond style generator, make sense that the bubbles get push to a single point at the top of the generator. But does it really work better?

[myoldyourgold]

In a previous post, myoldyourgold mentioned 6x6 cell. Just to make sure, is the 6x6 the size of the active area, or the basic size of the 316L plates?

I see that there is a diamond style generator, make sense that the bubbles get push to a single point at the top of the generator. But does it really work better?
Yesterday 08:07 PM

I was referring to basic plate size. The diamond style reactor does give you more active area but the bubbles have farther to get out and are continually bumping into the upper portion of the diamond and being redirected to the center. It might be an advantage or it might not. One would have to test for that. I have just stuck with the square which has its problems at the top too but works well form me.

[jeffp]

I personally did not have any success with the Volo. I have a 2006 Chevy HHR. I tried for about 6 months and it usually was 2-3 mpg less than with the efie. I have a small engine so I only need about 1 liter per min.
You really need to adjust your o2 sensors and possibly your map sensor. Most of the information I seen on chevy trucks to get good gains is to have a big cell, EFIE and Map enhancer.

[Bhart]

Hi forumsKDC, I am also using a Volo chip on a 97 Chevy 4x4 5.7 liter. I have been using it for about six months and have seen little increase in mileage (increase due to warmer temperatures?). Maybe we can combine our efforts and get better results.

I have built my generator around the Punch Dry Cell design. I have a 7 plate +nnnnn- generator that has a working surface of 4.5'x4.5" area. I use squared gasket material and not the "O" rings. I drilled 1/4" alternating supply holes in the bottom of my plates with a 3/8" outlet hole in center of the top of the plates.

I use a coiled tube inside a 3" plastic pipe for the first bubbler, and than into a second 1 1x2" bubbler before it goes into the intake just before the throttle body.

I use sodium hydroxide as my catalyst. I get a lot of bubbles of steam and about 2 litters of hho a minute. At least no steam into second bubbler.

[myoldyourgold]

I use sodium hydroxide as my catalyst. I get a lot of bubbles of steam and about 2 litters of hho a minute. At least no steam into second bubbler.

Bhart Sir, correct me if I am wrong. You have 5 bipolar(N) plates and 2 unipolar plates +NNNNN- 6 cells with 20.25 active surface area. My question is how many amps are you running through this in order to make 2 liters per minutes?

[Bhart]

MYOLDYOURGOLD, I am running in the 25 amps range.

[myoldyourgold]

Bhart Sir, you have defiantly made good improvements to the reactor by going to flat border gaskets. I do see an over amperage problem. Have you checked the temperature of the reactor after running for over 30 minutes? If you are producing 2 lpm proximately at 25 amps you would be 110% over Faraday. Science proves this is not possible. In your set up I would have to go with science. Your reactor should not be running over 10 amps.( 1/2 amp per squar inch of active surface area) A lot of the amperage over that is going to heat and will damage you plates quite quickly. This will also contribute to CR VI in your electrolyte. Make sure you dispose of the electrolyte in an acceptable manner. I would suggest you go to +nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn- and run this at 28 amps and make close to 2 lpm. Your plates will last a life time and there will be no over amperage. Keep up the good work and keep us informed on your progress. I have seen the 5.7 GM v8 getting over 20 miles per gallon with clean exhaust and lots of power with an EFIE and apx 2.8 lpm in town and better on the highway. Here is a picture of a poor design but shows exactly what happens with over amperage.

[Bhart]

Thank you for your input, I will have to get more plates to do the suggested design. Yes I do generate a lot of heat, hot to the touch. My plates are 14 gage (freebies) and gaskets 1/8" (some compression with plastic sheet). Through my research in this forum there isn't a concencious on thickness of plates or gaskets. some like the thinner ones and some go for the thicker ones.

[myoldyourgold]

Thank you for your input, I will have to get more plates to do the suggested design. Yes I do generate a lot of heat, hot to the touch. My plates are 14 gage (freebies) and gaskets 1/8" (some compression with plastic sheet). Through my research in this forum there isn't a concencious on thickness of plates or gaskets. some like the thinner ones and some go for the thicker ones.

Your welcome Sir, 1/8 inch EPDM is good for your size of reactor. The larger the active surface area and the more stacks the larger the gap has been my experience. Or the more gas you make the larger the gap should be. In a smaller reactor with only 10 square active inches I use 1/16 and make 1 to 1.5 liters per minute, over that I go to 1/8 inch.

[forumsKDC]

Thank you everyone for your information.
I have three questions at the bottom of this post. Your comments will be welcomed.

The past few days I have been studying cell designs and reviewing many forums and you tube videos. At first I was thinking of making my own to save some money, but I decided I just do not have the time to build a cell. I bought a 6x6 21 plate diamond style cell and will restart my testing when it arrives.

I promise I will post results of my testing to this thread. If I get positive result, I will change the thread title from negitive to positive. Keep a look out.

It has been suggested in a previous post that the installation arrangement in my Silverado is not the best. When this new cell arrives, I plan on keeping the arrangement the same so as not to change more than one thing in my next round of testing.

Tid bit of info. On the current HydroClub 9 plate 3 inch O ring, with 2 oz of KOH per quart. I get a temperature of 139 degree F on the exit hose of the cell after about 20 minutes.

I placed the temperature probe on the hose as close to the cells exit nipple and then wrapped a short piece of black tape to hold the probe on. Based on what I have seen, that is way to hot and that is why I have been going from gas to steam.

What will I do when the cell arrives.
1. Do a driveway flow rate and temperature test with the same setup.
2. Add a dryer and do the same test.
3. Reset the Volo Chip and start driving.

It is my understanding that it takes 200 miles or so of driving before the Volo Chip is tuned in.

1. Is the placement of the temperature probe on the exit hose of the cell an valid location?

2. What would be an ideal temperature to stay below?

3. I notice that people are using an Air Compressor Dryer for drying the gas and capturing possible over flow liquids. Does this device work?

[myoldyourgold]

1. Is the placement of the temperature probe on the exit hose of the cell an valid location?

2. What would be an ideal temperature to stay below?

3. I notice that people are using an Air Compressor Dryer for drying the gas and capturing possible over flow liquids. Does this device work?


I think knowing the temperature of the hottest spot on the reactor would be better. By the time the gas temperature goes up the reactor has over heated.

The cooler you can run the more efficient your reactor is. I would try and keep the temperature of the reactor at, or under 110ºF. Mine runs in the 90s except on very hot days.

I use an 18" X 2" clear PVC pipe. The longer your gas travels in the water the cooler and cleaner it is. I also use a nylon material that the gas has to go through as it exists the bubbler. The material is so fine that moisture is restricted from going through but the HHO goes through with no problem. It is like the material used in wind braker's (light nylon jacket). Make sure it has no chemical treatment on one side. You need to service it when you change the water in the bubbler. It is a home made filter. The material is glued to an O ring which fits into the end of the bubbler (wash it). I will post a picture if I have one. I have no experience with an AC dryer so can not help you there.

[Bhart]

MYOLDYOURGOLD, if I may ask you one question. I have access to scrap 316SS so I could make my generator any size I want up to 10"x10" but my thoughts are more of a surface area of 7"x7" and running at 30 amps. Would I than be able to get the 3 liter of HHO necessary for my 5.7 engine
and using the 19 plate set up you suggested. Thank you for all the help.

I also read in the forum that it is not advisable to use the power lead to the fuel pump to energize the solenoid for the HHO generator, I got the information from Fuel Saver-mpg

http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/doc/power_control.html

[myoldyourgold]

MYOLDYOURGOLD, if I may ask you one question. I have access to scrap 316SS so I could make my generator any size I want up to 10"x10" but my thoughts are more of a surface area of 7"x7" and running at 30 amps. Would I than be able to get the 3 liter of HHO necessary for my 5.7 engine
and using the 19 plate set up you suggested. Thank you for all the help.

I also read in the forum that it is not advisable to use the power lead to the fuel pump to energize the solenoid for the HHO generator, I got the information from Fuel Saver-mpg


If you make a reactor that is 7" X 7" and 19 plates it should be able to make 3 lpm but you will have to run it over 30 amps. It will be safe to run that size of plates at close to 50 amps. (That is based on 18 amps per stack and 3 stacks) Depending on how efficient it is will determine at what amperage you will have to run it at. I suspect at 40 amps or a bit more to make 3 lpm. You might not need 3 lpm though. Make sure the plates are prepared properly and cleaned and conditioned to get an efficient performing reactor.

Power lead to the fuel pump is not a good idea. The reason is the fuel pump comes on when you turn on the key. If you do not start the engine right away an excess of HHO will build up in the intake and could cause an explosion when you do start it. Better to connect it to the oil sender unit so it can only come on when the engine is running (when it has oil pressure) and turns off when the engine stops (no oil pressure). It should go through through the key and the oil pressure sending unit. The object is you want it to turn on when there is oil pressure and turn off when there is no oil pressure or the key is off. I hope that makes sense. The oil pressure stays up in most cars for a while after the engine stops so it must go through the key too so when key is turned off the reactor stops no matter if there is oil pressure or not. I use a switch which goes through the key to the solenoid and the solenoid is grounded through the oil pressure sender unit. Do a search and you should find a wiring diagram of all this some where on the forum. I can see where some oil sender units might not be the ground so the wiring would be slightly different. You can never be to safe.

[Bhart]

MYOLDYOURGOLD, finally got my plates, worked all day today to get them assembled. Here are some pictures.
I hope to get everything installed this weekend if nothing interferes with my plans.

[lhazleton]

Bhart,
Looks like a very nice build! My only concern is the gasket material you're using. It looks like freezer curtain material. If it is, be careful with it. I've used it before and found that it will leak easily, and if over-torqued, will deform. Good luck.

[myoldyourgold]

MyOld can you expand on this comment (Your reactor should not be running over 10 amps.( 1/2 amp per squar inch of active surface area) A lot of the amperage over that is going to heat and will damage you plates quite quickly).


Example of .5 amps per square inch:

20 square inches of active surface on one side of one plate.
One stack 10 amps
2 stacks 20 amps
3 stacks 30 amps

1/2 an amp per square inch of active surface area of one side of one plate is a rule of thumb. This is to help prevent over amping and creating large amounts of Cr6 and eating up your plates. It is also possible to over heat even at 1/2 an amp per square inch with a poor setup/reactor and damage your plates. I run my reactor at .42 amps per square inch because that is where I get the best efficiency (most gas per amp and LEAST heat). Remember if you have more than one stack you are dividing the amps. 3 stacks drawing 30 amps would actually be 10 amps per stack. My reactor runs between 90 F and 94 F and then goes up equal to ambient in hot weather(or engine compartment temp.) with a few minute lag. We had some 117 F weather this year and a week later 70 F weather. I did a lot of testing on the effect of ambient temperature and what happens to efficiency. As soon as I sort out the data and do some cold weather testing I will post it. All of this is to get, constant/the best results, in different situations. Hope this helps.

[Stevo]

Example of .5 amps per square inch:

20 square inches of active surface on one side of one plate.
One stack 10 amps
2 stacks 20 amps
3 stacks 30 amps

1/2 an amp per square inch of active surface area of one side of one plate is a rule of thumb. This is to help prevent over amping and creating large amounts of Cr6 and eating up your plates. It is also possible to over heat even at 1/2 an amp per square inch with a poor setup/reactor and damage your plates. I run my reactor at .42 amps per square inch because that is where I get the best efficiency (most gas per amp and LEAST heat). Remember if you have more than one stack you are dividing the amps. 3 stacks drawing 30 amps would actually be 10 amps per stack. My reactor runs between 90 F and 94 F and then goes up equal to ambient in hot weather(or engine compartment temp.) with a few minute lag. We had some 117 F weather this year and a week later 70 F weather. I did a lot of testing on the effect of ambient temperature and what happens to efficiency. As soon as I sort out the data and do some cold weather testing I will post it. All of this is to get, constant/the best results, in different situations. Hope this helps.

I am building a reactor with 5.5" square +nnnnnn- configuration and I bet I can run every bit of 15 amps all day without damaging the plates or heating them up. No holes in the plates at all and no elyte junctions at the bottom of the cell to aid in current leakage like most people's "zero current leakage" cells do. Nope, the distance current must travel from - to + is approximately 24". That would be called a "partial zero current leakage" cell. To date, I have seen a total of 0 *actual* 0 current leakage cells. :D

[Stevo]

Your correct in that even a 24" channel will not block 100% of current leakage ... however I can assure you there has been several zero current leakage cells built. My magnet cell will be one. Larry has built atleast 1.

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So Yes there are zero current leakage cells out there.....

Well good. This will be #1 for me. I'm glad there are others out there with the exact same idea as mine. I don't feel so alone. LOL! My biggest challenge is getting the energy to build the tubes and all the routing for water/gas separator chamber and how to get it to drain efficiently. I am thinking of using one or two of those aquarium manifolds and just opening all ports when I need to drain the cell... though after thinking about it, with a ~2V per gap goal I may not need to drain very often. Thanks for sharing that video. Really this is the cutting edge of reactor designs and exactly why I wanted to use Ni. Hey, let me know when you get any surplus and I'll take it off your hands. I will be posting my reactor up here pretty soon (or when I get time within the next 2 weeks - :o) I don't have much of that these days...

[myoldyourgold]

I am building a reactor with 5.5" square +nnnnnn- configuration and I bet I can run every bit of 15 amps all day without damaging the plates or heating them up. No holes in the plates at all and no elyte junctions at the bottom of the cell to aid in current leakage like most people's "zero current leakage" cells do. Nope, the distance current must travel from - to + is approximately 24". That would be called a "partial zero current leakage" cell. To date, I have seen a total of 0 *actual* 0 current leakage cells.

You are talking about 25 square inches approximately of active surface area. That would be 12.5 amps using the rule of thumb. This is not a fixed rule but a good one to follow. 15 amps would not show any heat or short term wear in a well built reactor with proper flow. I have tested more than one reactor for over 5000 hours and have compared the wear and believe me if you are over the 1/2 amp per square inch is shows up with long term running. A couple hundred hours will not show you much of anything when you are that close. Now the Cr6 is another problem when you exceed the 1/2 inch rule of thumb. That too I have tested and seen a measurable difference, the lower amps being the best. Depending on your design and efficiency things can vary quite a bit. Every reactor has a sweet spot and to get the best results you need to find it. You must remember amperage is not equal over the face of the plates. Bubbles are insulators and the current does not pass through them but on their surface making a hot spot like a ring if you have big bubbles. Those spots is where the over amping takes place. More reason to have small bubbles that do not get hung up on the plates. Your reactor sounds like it will be a good one. I have a design with no holes in any of the Bipolar plates but holes in unipolar plates. This design is the best I believe of them all. It is in the patient process and I will not be able to share it until that process is over. There is some published tests showing that 700 amps per square meter is the ideal amps. This is approximately .45 amps per square inch.

[Stevo]

Wonderful reading. It seems everyone is involved with "zero" voltage leakage (no holes) cell design this days. I've started one several months back but with me traveling a great deal it's on hold for now. My question to everyone is: are you focusing on a specific application? I've been scaling down the size of my cell to install in any vehicle without worrying about space to install it...

I am targeting 1 - 1.5 LPM @ approximately 8-12.5-ish amps. My car is a 2.0L Boxer engine, so hopefully that amount will be sufficient considering it is also turbocharged. I have complete control over my tune whether it be via my Cobb AP or open source, so that's pretty much taken care of. I am focusing solely on application for this size engine with setup mounted in the trunk. I am also seriously considering adding in WVI if possible. I haven't come down to the point where I go experimenting with the turbo inlet hose to find the appropriate venturi fitting (if one exists). Hopefully, I can get the supposedly "impossible" 1L / 10A or less efficiency out of this setup. We'll see. I mean hell the Punch 4.0 *supposedly* produces 1LPM @ ~8-10A. I'd like to see some proof to back that up though as the design seems to leak prone to actually work those numbers. If for some reason this unit actually does do what it claims efficiency wise, it would seem that my build would do a lot better.

Seems like everyone is trying to horde information at times and the painful fact is every design I have seen is simply evolutionary, not revolutionary.

[Stevo]

Now that I got a small portion of the motorcycle community interested in HOD, not for mileage gain (although 25-30% is easily obtained) but for the perfomance. the new focus for me is make the cell as small as posible and still produce 1 lpm for most of the newer V-Twin like my 07 Ultra.

The only thing I find with "no holes" design is, it gets bulky and too many additional material. Just far, my 3" X 5.5" is going to be the standard size, even for the home heater system.

On another note: my 2009 F-150 just hit 22K miles, just my curiosity I took the cells apart to check on the plate condition. Just light brown coloring and surface slime but rubbed off easily. Aside from that noted nothing to concern.

That's very interesting. I bet you have encountered quite a few naysayers in the process too. My neighbor was a naysayer in the beginning. After working with me for a while and doing some tests on his Chevy 305 he changed his tune. :D We are doing an install pretty soon on that truck then another one on my car with the new cell design. Yeh I am using 1/4" spacing on my new design for a couple of reasons so that may be the biggest downfall in terms of space, but... Seeing as how you want to do this on a bike. Couldn't you try something like this?

http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1653&stc=1&d=1288359928

(See attachment)

That way you can split the space required possibly helping fitment? Then just use black wire loom to conceal/protect the silicone gas and water hoses. Just a thought. Oh BTW the arrow going across is a wire that connects the two cells so each gets ~6.5 volts or so.

[jwhhopower1978]

Hello,

I have been working this HHO thing for a long time (7,000 or so miles) and have not had any positive results. I put about 35k miles per year so it does not take long to do my testing.

I have a 2006 Chevy Silverado 5.3L gas with 125,000 miles.
Purchased a single cell generator from HydroClubUSA.
I added a second reservoir between the bubbler and the intake to capture any liquids before they go into the intake.
Purchased my KOH electrolyte from www.essentialdepot.com.
At 1.5 oz of KOH is about 12 amps and produces about 1 liter of gas in 80 seconds. So I know the HHO generator is producing something.
Since I use this truck for work, I have logged every tank of gas, with average speed and miles per gallon. Before I purchased my HHO stuff, the life time average of the truck is 16.23 miles per gallon. Average gas mileage for highway speeds is a around 18.1 MPG. Do a lot of highway driving.

1. Round one of testing.
Gas millage dramatically decreased when using the generator. Used anywhere from 1 oz - 2.5 oz of KOH per quart of distilled water. Did about 3,400 miles of testing.

2. Round two of testing.
Read more about HHO and discovered on new car the computer will compensate for the extra oxygen produced from the HHO Generator and will dump more gasoline. Thus lower millage.
So I purchased the FS2-HHO Performance chip from Volo. Absolutely no difference. Did about 2,800 miles of testing.

3. Round three of testing. Someone mentioned that my spark plugs most likely need to be change and they suggested PulseStar. I bought them turned off the HHO generator to get a new base line MPG. Did about 1,500 miles of testing. Wow! never got 20MPG before on the highway. I think these things really work.

4. Round four of testing.
Cleaned the HHO generator, started with 1.5 oz of KOH per quart of distilled water. Turned it back on, drove about 200 miles to get the generator stable, reset the FS2-HHO chip. 1,000 miles later, still no positive results.


HHO generators seems logical, but does this really work????? I see all kinds of reports of how great this is, but never have seen anyone in person that has a generator. Can not find any on-line information of anyone that has done it on a Chevy/GM with the same year and type of engine.

Any thoughts would greatly be appreciated.

Have a great day!

Hi.

First off, you have a big engine 5.3L so the hhogenerator needs to put out COOL CLEAN MONOTON hhogas at least 3LPM. ITs easy to make hhogas, but is harder to produce quality hhogas. So for this to work and increase milage you need a complete high quality on-demand hho system..

Efficiant hho generator whit multiply series cells large electrode surface to keep the heat down (personally i find 5N to work best) and that put out at least 4.5-5 mmw whitout circulationpump..


And also put in efficiant 1GPM 2-3amp max circulationpump (if your cell is compatible whit one) what will help cool your system down and rise your mmw.

Tank/bubbler (of cource) + Gasdryer system thats cleans up the hhogas from watervapor, electrolyte and brings up the quality of the hhogas. Clean hhogas will show better results.

Its very imporant to have a constant current PWM system, These systems allows you to tune in the exaktly right amount of current were your engine recives the highes increase in MPG, and hold that current amount indepentent of % electrolyt or systems operation temperature. These system also keeps your system more efficitant and cool.

And of cource the importantce of O2 EFIE controlls on oxygen (lambda) sensor type engines, they need to be a fine tune intruments so you can tune in the right values for your engine. I personaly like the digital versions best whit LCD screen so you esay can see your values when you are tuning in your hho system.

So you understand that there are many variables that needs to be right or less you will not se eny good results.

It is important to have the right products to make it work.. Try to find more serius manufactures of quality ondemand hho systems.

If you have more questions let it come.. JW

Sorry for the bad gramma, Swedish guy behind the typo ;)

[lhazleton]

Stevo,
I looked at your attachment; interesting! So what you're doing is running 2 individual 4 cell reactors off 6.5v each, giving 1.65vdc to each cell?
What kind of MMW are you getting from each unit? It must run very cool and the E/lyte must remain clean.:D

[Stevo]

Stevo,
I looked at your attachment; interesting! So what you're doing is running 2 individual 4 cell reactors off 6.5v each, giving 1.65vdc to each cell?
What kind of MMW are you getting from each unit? It must run very cool and the E/lyte must remain clean.:D

No, actually I kind of f***ed up the drawing a bit, but that's what you get on a quick lunch break. It's supposed to show a +nn- x2 setup. 6.5v each / 3 = 2.16 - 2.33 v. Sorry. That would actually fit better lol. Here's a better pic: http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1653&stc=1&d=1288359928

[jwhhopower1978]

Koya1893:

yes you have a point, well bulid cells will work good and in other words its a quality cell.

I think a ondemand hho system needs to be as bolletprof and efficiant as possible so you can use i in any conditions from subzero temps (whit high % KOH or NaHO + a gas dryer system in this case)

to high temp whit good results.. Thats why i rekomend a Consant current whit a durable PWM

(higher efficiency, works in cold temps and in very long drives, and easyer to tune in best results)

Of cource, if you only have summer conditions it will work whitout ,

I guess i have high demands on the systems i build :)

Not all engines whit oxy sensors needs EFIE O2 devices, but best results will be whit one and if you use one you will be sure to see results.

The only thing i want is that all new hho builders learns all the neccesary parameters to build a safe efficiant hho systems. So the HHO ondemand systems becomes accepted in your community!

Just trying to post good information to newbies



sorry for the crapy english guys! JW

[Bhart]

I keep seeing a 28% mixture of KOH to distilled water, is that by weight, 8.345lbs x .28 = 2.336lbs of KOH or by volume 128oz x .28 = 35.84oz of KOH

Where 2 lbs of KOH is approximate to 24 oz by volume.

[myoldyourgold]

28 % By weight. You will need a PWM to run it that rich.

[Bhart]

I tried to use the diffusers from this site:

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategor.../air%20stone/4

I got a lot of bubbles that migrated out of my first bubbler into my second bubbler. I also put a second diffuser in the second bubbler and got more bubblers to migrate through my hose into the throttle body. I have since taken them off and went back to an air muffler for a diffuser in the first bubbler with no diffuser in the second bubbler.