Thermodynamics

[CNM DESIGN]

Need to start a thread on HHO use outside the auto.

Please state your area of expertise and comment (everyone has one} and reason.

If link is not blue, please copy and past.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlgDALr1Xew&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivRrPLH02Jk

The fuel in most cases is set as low as possible.

This guy lived in his truck.

I do not personally believe in his philosophy, only his science.

How it is made

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiONwx7x35c&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-9PTaqtMlI&feature=related


Scientifically speaking, I think he has no real goal. He has a DEEP belief in what he is doing and the vids are his only way of expressing or getting out to the world what he is doing.

Every time his road comes to a fork he takes it. These vids simply record his path and it is up to someone with a higher level of education to observe and see if any of the paths he has taken is going some where.

On one vid he said he was homeless, he lives in his camper truck. He stays at missions around Canada and sometimes in Alaska. His R&D is financed by donations. He would go to a scrap yard show them some of his vids and they would donate some pipe.

As far as I can tell, he to, like me is a student at the MacGyver School of Physics. He uses words like (Torsion field anomaly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_field ) but he doesn’t understand why it works. That’s up to the people watching the vids.

Philosophically speaking, he has a DEEP DEEP belief in the All Mighty. He is a conspiratist (not a word). He uses the vids to get out his word incase he is captured by the MAN. He believes not so much in the end of days, but the end of the way we were, and hard times they are a comein.

I feel the goal of each person watching is to observe, annualize, debate and come to a consciences on the science. No more, no less.

What say you?

[Roland Jacques]

??? What am i looking at here? I just spent 15 minutes watching videos and I'm still not sure of the point?
After 2 Looong videos, so far a i gather he has a pipe, he injects high pressure air at one end, and then he put in an unknown amount of fuel (maybe propane) and it get very hot. Is that it?

Maybe i missed it, what is this "Joe Pipe" is suppose to be doing? I'm guessing the point here is, he gets more heat from a giving amount of fuel, by doing this. Is there a test baseline, or a reference point, to say x amount of fuel, normally produces Y amount of heat...

[CNM DESIGN]

He states in one vid that the water in the propane is cracked into HHO and is all so burned.

If this is true, I would think the flame would burn much hotter than just propane by itself.

This in turn would allow you to use even less propane or maybe none.

What do you think?

I’m starting my own research on this system (Joe Pipe). Will try to use more of a scientific point of view.

I’m currently a student at the MacGyver School of Physics.

I watched 30 or 40 of the vids. I think he has something.

The air is just a small 4" fan stepped down to 1.5 and it runs on low.

He said the propane is all so very low.

It's easy to make, I think I will give it a shot.

[myoldyourgold]

Cracking water with heat is called Steam Reforming and is a known science. I have no idea if the temperatures in the Joe Pipe gets hot enough to do this. Do your research on Steam Reforming and you will find what you need. Some people think that this is part of what is happening in the Geet system. I am not sure that there is enough heat in the exhaust to do this but maybe coupled with something else it might.

[Roland Jacques]

Steam reforming was how some zeppelin's, (the Hindenburg) where filled with H2 ( not sure how they separated the gases)

But I personally do beleive that some disassociating of H2O / steam happens at lower temps that is "Suppose" to be required. so If the guy was to take his "RAM-JET" and add some steam, monitor his before and after numbers, and maybe you could conclude something useful.

PS. If you watched 40 of those videos you deserve a award or something.
I tried to watch 5 of them and started to get real mad at you for posting this thread, :mad: But then i looked at the bright side,
I only have to look at 199 more and i might find out if he ever CONCLUEDES ANYTHING AT ALL!!!!

[Roland Jacques]

Cracking water with heat is called Steam Reforming and is a known science. I have no idea if the temperatures in the Joe Pipe gets hot enough to do this. Do your research on Steam Reforming and you will find what you need. Some people think that this is part of what is happening in the Geet system. I am not sure that there is enough heat in the exhaust to do this but maybe coupled with something else it might.

I Think the GEET has one thing for sure going on, that is changing the gasoline vapors into simpler molecule that burn much faster than gas vapor. I'm playing with cracking gasoline vapors in the same kind of manor and it seems to be a fairly simple process. It does not require much more than 300C temperature to do this. They are doing this with a fairly consistent success on motor bikes and cars in the Philippines for a couple of years now. Improved power and MPG's. It seems this is what the PICC Pre Ignition Catalytic Converter was onto. Before they got shut down by THE MAN.

[myoldyourgold]

Roland, you are right about the Geet. In France it has been used for some time and has many good documents confirming its benefits. If it does more than modify the fuel to a better state is still not understood at least by me. Of course that is not say anything at all. I am no authority on the Geet.

I only looked at one of the Joe pipe Videos for less than a minute and that was enough. I feel for you going through more that that. LOL

[CNM DESIGN]

I heat my home with in floor radiant heat. The boiler I have is over 50 yrs old. It still works great, but I’m sure it’s not very efficient. If I can heat my water with even half of the gas I’m using now that would help a lot.

In one vid, he showed the temp at 1,100c, just over 2100f I think. He said once it was about 2500f. I don’t know how hot the flame is in my boiler, so I don’t know what to compare it to. I would set this up outside like one of those outside wood burners that heat water for homes.

[Roland Jacques]

I heat my home with in floor radiant heat. The boiler I have is over 50 yrs old. It still works great, but I’m sure it’s not very efficient. If I can heat my water with even half of the gas I’m using now that would help a lot.

In one vid, he showed the temp at 1,100c, just over 2100f I think. He said once it was about 2500f. I don’t know how hot the flame is in my boiler, so I don’t know what to compare it to. I would set this up outside like one of those outside wood burners that heat water for homes.

He could very well be on the something, but if he cant quantify it, or even try to do so, we don't really know. I will say that propane burning at 2500 seems to me to be VERY HOT and maybe uncharacteristically so.
You would think out of what looks like 203 videos, he could have one that clearly states his goal or at least what he thinks is happening... If you do find one let me know, I am curious.

But the few videos i saw can be summed up as follows.
Boy this Joe pipe is great, it get real real hot, and look at the control handle it only half way. Look at that heat now.

[CNM DESIGN]

Scientifically speaking, I think he has no real goal. He has a DEEP belief in what he is doing and the vids are his only way of expressing or getting out to the world what he is doing.

Every time his road comes to a fork he takes it. These vids simply record his path and it is up to someone with a higher level of education to observe and see if any of the paths he has taken is going some where.

On one vid he said he was homeless, he lives in his camper truck. He stays at missions around Canada and sometimes in Alaska. His R&D is financed by donations. He would go to a scrap yard show them some of his vids and they would donate some pipe.

As far as I can tell, he to, like me is a student at the MacGyver School of Physics. He uses words like (Torsion field anomaly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsion_field ) but he doesn’t understand why it works. That’s up to the people watching the vids.

Philosophically speaking, he has a DEEP DEEP belief in the All Mighty. He is a conspiratist (not a word). He uses the vids to get out his word incase he is captured by the MAN. He believes not so much in the end of days, but the end of the way we were, and hard times they are a comein.

I feel the goal of each person watching is to observe, annualize, debate and come to a consciences on the science. No more, no less.

What say you?

[Roland Jacques]

I'm just a guy with opinions no expertise in this area.





Would a quartz tube work the best? ( boundary layer )

As for a vortex inducer. What do you think would work the best for this application?

Please comment or use PM.

Which flame do you think is hotter?

The flame from a propane hot water heater or the flame from his system?

This i can answer, The flame in the Joe pipe Looks Much hotter than ANY hot water heater Ive even seen. If he could have metered the flow of propane he is using that would be helpful in knowing if something unusual is happening

Which system do you think uses the least amount of propane?

I have no idea, there is not enough info to go on. (that's exactly the point of my frustration with his videos) Hasn't anyone with a flow meter ever checked this? If you have A Joe pipe I can lend you a flow meter so you can check and compare?

He states in one vid that the water in the propane is cracked into HHO and is all so burned. If this is true, I would think the flame would burn much hotter than just propane by itself. This in turn would allow you to use even less propane or none.

Not sure how water moisture in the propane tank would mix with Propane Gases. Like i said He or someone with a Joe pipe should just inject some steam into the mix and measure the results

What do you think?

[CNM DESIGN]

Just saw a vid. He stated that the pipe at that time was only using 3-5oz of propane an hour.

And this is without adding in some HHO.

If that is the case, based on running 12 hrs out of 24 it would only take 120lbs a month to heat a home and hot water.
(I think my math is correct)

Does anyone know how much propane is a Lb? I think around 1$

How many hours out of 24 does your home heating run on avg? If it's less than 12, it could run as little as $600 for 6 months.

1 min into the vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nF3cpSHzTc&feature=related



Any comments?

[Roland Jacques]

If adding HHO is of interest to this process. You may want to try to use the heat of the pipe to disassociate steam. It appears to be hot enough to do that . Make a heat exchanger somewhere on the pipe and pull steam though it, the disassociated HHO and residual steam then goes into the reactor pipe. Just an idea, I'm not sure if it will give you a gain.

[CNM DESIGN]

Yes, that’s his plan all along. He has a place in the pipe just for that.

If you watch, on one vid he has a piece of square pipe welded over the hot part of the pipe where he puts in wood pellets. The pellets gasifie and goes into the pipe to be burned in stead of the propane.

Based on wood moisture content of 15% wet basis
Woods gross heat energy content: 6,600 BTU per lb

After gasification 1lb wood yields 35 cubic feet of gas which has a net heat energy content of 4,725 BTU or 4,900 BTU heat from burning the gas direct

I’m sure wood gas burned in the pipe is much hotter than it would be burned in a Bunsen burner.

[Owen_]

umm... after watching those guys talk about how a steel pipe can be hot on one end and cold on another for 10 min. I doubt anything good will come of this.

[CNM DESIGN]

Nothing personal, but who are you? (in a nice way, not wanting to get into a p*ssing contest)

I will be first to admit, I know nothing about anything. But I do know this is science 101, High School.

Efficiency
Vortex tubes have lower efficiency than traditional air conditioning equipment. They are commonly used for inexpensive spot cooling, when compressed air is available. Commercial models are designed for industrial applications to produce a temperature drop of about
45 °C (80 °F). With no moving parts, no electricity, and no Freon, a vortex tube can produce refrigeration up to 6000 BTU using only filtered compressed air at 100 PSI. A control valve in the hot air exhaust adjusts temperatures, flows and refrigeration over a wide range.

Proposed applications
Dave Williams, of dissigno, has proposed using vortex tubes to make ice in third-world countries. Although the technique is inefficient, Williams expressed hope that vortex tubes could yield helpful results in areas where using electricity to create ice is not an option.
There are industrial applications that result in unused pressurized gases. Using vortex tube energy separation may be a method to recover waste pressure energy from high and low pressure sources.

In this case the compressed gas is propane.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortex_tube
http://www.linux-host.org/energy/svortex.htm

[Owen_]

I've designed and build many burners of similar size (venturi and forced air) for aluminum casting, glass blowing, and forging. For about 6 bucks you can make one of these burners (http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/oliverburner1.html) which will put out a flame that looks about the same (and doesn't use electricity).
As far as a pipe heating up; (unless it's copper or silver) one end can be melty hot wile the other is stone cold.
I don't see what he is trying to do with the cooling effect, if he is getting one.
I first assumed he was using a low pressure propane system, as he is using aquarium hoses for his fuel line, but that wouldn't give much force to form a vortex.
The temp propane burns at is right around the numbers he is stating. This number can be increased if the air to be combusted is of a higher temp, but propane has about 91,500 BTU's per gal, this can not be changed. With this burner some of those BTU's come out the side of the pipe, and some out of the end. I'm not getting why that's a good thing, it's something I try to avoid.
Maybe I misted it but how is he coming up with his fuel consumption numbers? To really know he would have to know the pressure accurately, and know the orifice size and have a chart (or do some timely calculations). But it seems like he just has a pin valve to control it, and no measuring instruments after that.

As far as wood fuel goes; well think about what would happen... heat it up with propane until you get enough wood gas pressure to run it, as it get's hotter you make gas even faster which increasing the pressure, which increases the temp, which increases the pressure, boom!
Unless the wood gas if for use outside of this burner, it would be rather dangerous.

This is a fine burner, but don't see this as anything better than a scaled up blowtorch inside a pipe. I suppose some energy could be used from the pressure of the propane (about 600psi in a full tank) but you would need to run it at a relatively high pressure, which requires fittings that guy is not using. The essay way to use this pressure energy is with a venturi, so you don't have to power a fan.
again, I may have missed something, but where is the cold gas going? If it's just mixing with the hot, then there is not benefit to the vortex.

[Roland Jacques]

CMC, FWIW
You refer to the Joe tube as a vortex tube. There is something called Vortex mathematics or "Rodin" mathematics", you may want to check it out. I don't know if it applies to this Joe pipe subject with the flame and heat, but it might. There are some guys doing other types energy experiments with it, that are waaaay out of the norm. http://www.rense.com/RodinAerodynamics.htm

[CNM DESIGN]

That math is way to outside the box for me. It's all I can do to balance a check book.

What do you think about my post on the $ factor? ( Why HHO Cannot Work #54 )

Do you find it true, more or less?

[Roland Jacques]

That math is way to outside the box for me. It's all I can do to balance a check book.

What do you think about my post on the $ factor? ( Why HHO Cannot Work #54 )

Do you find it true, more or less?
The basics of Rodin math are fascinating to me, but most of the dimensional stuff is over my head, and even scary. To see what some are doing with the 'Rodin Coil' is literally unbelievable for conventional thinking.

Edit, Found this video show How the Rodin Starship coil geting OU over 300% . I've seen them do better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc-NYUHS2UM&feature=channel


Your post 54 looks reasonable.