Newbie Dissertation Idea

[Ford Capri]

Hello all!
I'm new here and I am currently doing a Motor-sport Engineering degree at Derby University, UK. I would like to base my final year dissertation on Hydrogen injection and run a series of tests to see if this could be a practical application for a motor-sport vehicle. I plan on doing this by buying an old diesel van (I know, not exactly a motor-sport vehicle but I'm on a student budget!) like a Ford Escort or equivalent, with a 1.8 NA diesel or around that.
I would also like to build my own electrolyser and system and plumb it in myself and run a series of before and after tests to prove/disprove the working of the system.

There is a lot of crap on the internet about it being BS and plenty of companies using this technology as "get rich quick" scams etc and I then found this forum which seems to kind of prove it's not all BS, now my question to you is, how complex, expensive and likely would it to be to get positive results to prove this technology?

Bare in mind that I will be using a 1.8 normally aspirated diesel from around the mid 90's and my budget is that of a student, so not much!

Any info and feedback would be brilliant, I have so many questions to ask but I think I will trawl through your forum to see if there are any threads which may answer them.
Many thanks, Guy

[myoldyourgold]

Build a 6 cell (7 plate) or 7 cell (8 plate) dry cell series reactor with 2 stacks. This is a 6 cell 2 stack reactor +nnnnn-nnnnn+.

Follow these three rules and you will be fine.

1. Not MORE than .5 amps/in² of active surface area on ONE plate.

2. Not MORE than 2.3 volts/cell (gap).

3. Not more than 500 ml/liter of engine size. Some engines require slightly more.

[adam001]

Hey,

Thought I would say hi...I am only a short hop away from you!!

I am at Loughborough University studying Automotive Engineering. I am planning to study hydrogen fumigation in diesel engines for my final year project!

I am building a 2 stack reactor. Using 13 plates with 2.33V across each cell most likely using KOH electrolyte.

Adam

[Ford Capri]

@ Adam, Ha! Odds of that eh?
What car are you planning on building yours on?

@ Myoldyourgold, are there any decent threads on this forum to bring me up to speed on the building and design of these systems? I have only just got the go ahead from my tutor and want to do some more research. But I will abide by your rules and hopefully get a decent result!

Are there any other engine modifications which will need to be done (other than wiring and fitting the unit)? I have read for some people that lambda's are a pain as the increase in oxygen readings means the ECU dumps more fuel in?

Thanks

[myoldyourgold]

Are there any other engine modifications which will need to be done (other than wiring and fitting the unit)? I have read for some people that lambda's are a pain as the increase in oxygen readings means the ECU dumps more fuel in?



I'll call you Ford if that is OK. The rules are a starting point. There are many variables each one possibly require some changes to the rules. It is not possible to come up with rules for every situation. Now if your diesel has an ECU this takes you to the next level. There is a lot to learn there. The best thing is to be able to reprogram the ECU. By this I mean the ability to change the amount of diesel going into the engine and change the time of injection. This is not possible for the average experimenter and so I will not get into that at any depth here. You first start by following the rules and see what happens with the car you are putting it on. At least run two tanks of fuel through it, if the thing is running go enough. It might consume more fuel during this time. These first two tanks should clean out the combustion chamber and injectors a little and help in performance. Next you will have to learn to trick the ECU to put less diesel in. To regurgitate all of this in even 10 posts will take more time than I have at the moment. The basic rule here to remember is that you will get little to no gain unless you somehow put less diesel in and replace it with HHO. Diesels are pretty efficient to begin with so just injecting HHO with out doing anything else might and might not give you a gain with out some adjustment, like an EFIE etc. You need to do a lot of study and when you get stumped come back and I will try and help you where I can.

[adam001]

My testing for my project will not involve any form of unit, I will be using bottled hydrogen and oxygen so it's all bang on.

But my series cell I'm putting on my defender :)

Adam

[Ford Capri]

OK, well without a mappable ECU, the only thing that i gather can be changed is the input sensors i assume, so is this where the EFIE comes into it? To adjust the voltage from the lambda sensor to correct the fuel mixture? And this I assume is adjusted manually until it is running at it's optimum? Sounds like an interesting project! Don't worry I will be doing plenty of research but just another question, roughly how much will this cost? Assuming I need to buy an EFIE of some sort.

Thanks again for the info, you have been very helpful.

[astrocady]

My testing for my project will not involve any form of unit, I will be using bottled hydrogen and oxygen so it's all bang on.

But my series cell I'm putting on my defender :)

Adam

Using bottled hydrogen and oxygen won't make any different, as far as what the O2 sensors reads. With HHO being introduced, the O2 sensors read more O2 present because there is less pollutants in the exhaust -- the HHO allows the fuel (either gas or diesel) to burn more completely leaving less pollutants behind. It wouldn't matter if the HHO came from bottles or from an electrolyzer. In fact, it would matter it you injected HHO or just hydrogen -- the results, as far as the O2 reading, would be the same.

However, I would be surprised if either of your vehicles even have O2 sensors. That needs to be the 1st thing y'all check. If they don't have O2 sensors, then you home free and you don't have to worry about it. On a diesel, you should see about 20% improvement without doing anything other than injecting HHO if the vehicle doesn't have any O2 sensors.

If they do have O2 sensors, then you MAY have to treat if with an effie or chip modifier. It depends on the engine. Carter is right -- run the vehicle for at least 2 tank fulls of fuel and see what happens.

[myoldyourgold]

Adam read my post on your thread for a lot more information. Ford you do the same. You guys should get together so we wont have to post in more than one spot. I answered there because of another post that needed answering.

[Ford Capri]

OK thanks again.

[Not4spd]

My friends father(engineer) proved this technology works. He went from 13mpg to 24mpg in his 97 Suburban. All without the use of O2 spacers, tuning, need for a EFFIE unit, or any cleaning of the product itself. It's very impressive and will change the way people view HHO for practical use. He has no plans to market the product or patent his design for that matter. I hope to change that when I speak with him personally. Lucky for me he will be allowing me access to his design plans etc. This will help speed up the process of me acquiring data on performance gains of HHO use in a supercharged application.

Anyways, I am really excited and cant wait to begin my data.

Good luck with your research and with the knowledge that is here you won't be mislead. Whatever information/results you find I hope it betters the community and helps to reduce the false beliefs people have.

[Ford Capri]

Thanks again, still have that ounce of skepticism, but can only hope the results are there.
People talk of their increase in MPG's, surely there must be increases in torque and power as well? If so can it be tuned to provide more torque and power and less focus on the MPG side of things?

I would like to investigate this as a potential use in motorsport, especially if there can be a torque, power and MPG increase and lower emissions all in one modification.

I want to do 3 dyno tests when it is built,

as standard (no HHO)
with the HHO on,
with the HHO on and EFIE (if needed)

Thanks

[myoldyourgold]

You have barley scratched the surface. By injecting HHO you have changed the thermodynamics of the engine and will need to study the exhaust, cooling, and any pollution control systems just to name a few. I hope you know what you are getting into. I will just start you on your way. Most stock exhaust systems are made to hold heat, increase back pressure all to help burn unburnt fuel by keeping its temperature up so the catalytic converter can do its job. With HHO you have burned the excess unburnt fuel, if things were done right, and this now becomes a problem. Solution is an after market tube type header system and a better flowing exhaust. Most cooling systems are not ideal and need to be worked on even without HHO. On diesel I recommend drilling 1 to 2 1/8" holes in the thermostat to increase the flow, it does very little to change operating temperature, but does increase flow. Most diesels have a higher flow rate to begin with than gas engines but needs more. Since your are doing this for a dissertation it is going to require you do some studying in these two areas and others also. This will also help you understand what is necessary to get every bet of horsepower out of every bit of HHO and fuel. Cam/valve timing and overlap are critical and are a trade off when it comes to HP, fuel economy and torque but with HHO things do not follow the same rules in this area. You might be looking at to broad of a subject and might want to consider narrowing it down because of time and money. Just my opinion.

[Ford Capri]

That response is spot on what I was after, I will merely be doing a study into the possibility of this working for a motorsport vehicle, and proving it by building a test rig on a vehicle (ie a rubbish diesel van) to show that the technology does work, and with extensive research and knowledge (like it takes to build a real motorsport vehicle) this can be acheived with potentially good results. Due to this technology still not fully understood by the masses (and me at the moment :p) I will not be building this motorsport vehicle but merely putting this technology forward to show that it can be used to lower emissions, increase torque and MPG (just think how useful this could be in an endurance race and how much of an edge this could give you if you had a reliable set up.)

I will also be doing all kinds of 'before and after' testing on running temperatures and performance etc. I will do them together by switching the system on and off as some people have reported the vehicle running better after running hydrogen through it and turning it off, hopefully this will also eliminate other variables like atmospheric temp and pressure etc.

Hope this clears it up a bit on what I am trying to acheive, if i achieve any results from my test rig it will validate my hypothesis on this being viable technology for a motorsport application.

Thanks for the advice and information. :D

[myoldyourgold]

Ford Sir, Just one more thing. Depending on the ECU in the diesel you choose, turning it on and off could possibility disrupt its possible adaptive learning capabilities. On the better ECU's they have the capability of learning and do this by being switched on and run for awhile and then ignition turned off and started again. Only after a number of cycles like this does it finally get to some position hopefully one that you want. It could take a few tanks of fuel. You will confuse it if you change things like turning off the reactor or change things before it completes its cycles. You could get it in such a position that is goes to a rich protective table and throws a code. You need to first understand the ECU of the car you are going to use. If it has no O2 sensor then there should not be a problem. You will still need to learn how the ECU works though. Maybe an older diesel Mercedes would be easier because no ECU to worry about, yet that is kind of out dated and might not be practical in your case.

[BioFarmer93]

Hello Ford,
I kept quiet to see which direction this was going to take, so I'll offer a couple of things now that may make your objective a bit less (or more) difficult to achieve. The first would be, Keep It Simple. Use an older non-electronic or ECU managed vehicle. And, to balance the simplicity out, you HAVE to use an on-board electrolyzer. Why, you ask? Well, because to properly evaluate the efficiency, you have to bear in mind that people do not want to drive around with compressed H2 and O2 cylinders in their automobiles (usually). So, you must include in your calculations the the load that is placed on the engine by the alternator, since electrolyzers will in all likelihood be the method by which the gas is provided to other vehicles. Right...?

[myoldyourgold]

Bio and Ford I most apologize I forgot that this was a bottled situation. I agree with Bio 100%. All my comments were related to a reactor being powered by the vehicle. This is really where the controversy is anyway. Showing how it is possible to get a gain using the power of the vehicle is really what you want to do. Doing it with bottled stuff is not much different than nitrous oxide or what ever it is. My mind is a little slow at the moment.

[Ford Capri]

No worries! Probably my fault for not being clear on what I was trying to achieve.
This was my plan, I was hoping a mid 90's diesel van would be the easiest thing to start on as you don't need to worry about ignition timing, relatively low tech to fight with and within my budget. I was going to have an on board water electrolyser and test it to see what effects it has upon the vehicle, rolling roads, emissions, temp tests of exhaust and cooling etc. From this I would compile if it was viable for race use and if so, what would potentially need doing to optimise it for race use.

Plus if you say that switching the HHO system on and off will disrupt the ECU's learning patterns or activate a limp mode or a default setting then I will steer clear of that and do before HHO and with HHO.