Why HHO Cannot Work

[braddubya]

A cars engine converts fuel into kinetic energy. Some of that kinetic energy goes into driving the wheels and some of it goes into driving the other components of the engine including the vehicles alternator.

The alternator spins and creates an electric field which charges that battery and powers all of the electrical components of the vehicle. This electric field varies in strength dependent on the load (amount of energy) required to power the all of the components. The higher the load the more the electric field will create resistance to the alternator spinning.

The energy needed to split 1 molecule of H2O is equal to the energy released when the hydrogen and oxygen molecules are ignited and recombined into H2O. This means that in a perfect world with a 100% efficient HHO generator 1 joule of energy applied to water will release 1 joule worth of HHO gas potential energy.

In order to apply this 1 joule of energy to the water your alternator has to generate it while being driven by your car’s engine. This increases the load and magnetic field which increases the alternators resistance to spinning.

Again in a perfect world to compensate for the increased resistance your engine will have to supply the alternator with 1 extra joule of energy thus reducing the amount available to drive the wheels.

After all of this your HHO generator has generated 1 joule of potential energy in the form of HHO gas. This gas travels into the intake then into the cylinder where it is ignited and releases 1 joule of energy driving the piston downward and powering the engine.

To put the entire process in simple terms you have taken 1 joule of energy in the form of fossil fuel and converted into 1 joule of kinetic (running engine) then 1 joule of electric (alternator) then 1 joule of potential (HHO gas) then finally back into 1 joule of kinetic (HHO ignition).

The key concept to understand is that nowhere in this process was excess energy produced as it is only converted. Fossil fuels on the other hand enter the vehicle already in the form of potential energy when combined with the oxygen in the air. This means that energy is produced and can drive the wheels of the car.
The only way HHO could work is to generate it off of a different power source and then load it on the vehicle in gas form. However this would require large tanks of pressurized explosive gas/oxygen mixture. You would be driving a bomb.

Finally one great analogy to put the last nail in the coffin for HHO. In a perfect world you could power a light using a solar panel that is producing energy from the light itself. X joules in X joules out. BUT you cannot tap into the system to draw out extra energy as no excess is being created.


Now HHO is a very cool mixture of gasses for other reasons such as cutting and welding steal but for increasing gas mileage it just doesnt add up.

Im not trying to start a fight but would love some discussion.



Note: I edited out the last part where I made some offensive comments. My apologies.

[BioFarmer93]

I think I might know who you are, and If I'm right, then I resent the hell out of you following me over here and being a troll. If you are not who I think you are and are just a random troll, I still resent the hell out of you. No one here feels like wasting keyboard strokes and time arguing with you for the sake of "discussion". It's been re-hashed so any times that unless you are willing to build a unit and see for yourself, I seriously doubt that anyone else on this board except another noob will respond to you. Your first post is so obviously designed to incite that it is laughably pathetic. Please feel free to read the testamonials before you are banned.


**Note To Admin** User braddubya is a TROLL **Please Ban**

[hhoconnection]

Here we go again! Yes, it is all just smoke and mirrors and not a single person has seen actual mileage gains using HHO. We are all just a bunch of retards wasting our time and money. Dude, we have heard this argument soooo many times. I'm sure that you are very qualified and you are welcome to your opinion but please, just let us have our fun.

[myoldyourgold]

If it did work there would be real research by real scientists and technicians on it. There is no way that joe schmo is doubling his gas mileage in a mason jar in his garage and still no car company IN THE WORLD has picked up on this and integrated it into their cars. If it worked they would revolutionize the automobile. You really think you know something they dont?


Oh now here we go again.

If discussion is what you want I would suggest that you first do some research which is easy to do. You should first start with the search feature on this forum and if not satisfied then go to other forms, Google etc. The problem is you have addressed the problem in a negative way and with some truth mixed in with half truths. If discussion is what you want, you would come at this with a totally different approach showing that you know what you are talking about not just half truths.

I am not going to waste my time going over stuff that has been hashed over many times before but I will address one thing. Who are you to say, what you said in the above quoted part of your post. Are you a scientist of renowned status? If you are that is even worse because it shows that you on your first post have not done any research which is against all good scientific principles. Further more there has been more Joe Schmo's who have come up with brilliant ideas and become leaders in many fields. They at least got there hands dirty and found what worked and what didn't and why. I would be very careful who you call Joe Schmo. Now the Mason jar is one part of the truth in your statement. I feel you at least owe us the courtesy of doing the research and if you still have some questions come back, show your ignorance, and I am sure one of Schmo's here will be able to set you straight. There is volumes of scientific work that proves there can be some benefit.

[lhazleton]

Duh.....umm....gee golly wiz, guyz! Duz yooz think the smart man is onto us???? I hope the world doesn't figure out that we're all a bunch of friggin' WINDOW-LICKERS in here! Guess I bought my degree from E-Bay, and all of the money I've spent in research was for naught. I feel really stupid now, as I just bought a whole case of 'Mason Jars' so I can triple my fuel economy!
Trolls are such a$$holes!:mad:

[Owen_]

Oh good, now I can save my time and money. Thanks, I'm sure glad you posted this helpful information, after all no one here as pasted the eighth grade, and we don't understand the conservation of energy. I really though HHO was making energy from nothing. But what if I get my crystals balanced, will it work then?

Your not going to get a "real discussion" with a post like that, just a lot of sarcasm (from me). If your really interested try posting something like "why does HHO work, there is a clear total energy loss, so where is the gain" and you will get some theories and some discussion.

[Autowrench]

Yeah, guess I should go right out and take my HHO generator right off, and throw it away, because an Oil Company shill says it doesn't work? Guess I shouldn't have voided my warranty by altering the wiring to the ECM either?
Let me clue you in, friend, these little backyard units are going to break BIG OIL, oh yes, count on it! There will come a day when Exxon/BP/Shell will come to us on their knees, begging us to buy gas from them.

[rcflyn]

friggin' WINDOW-LICKERS in here!
Trolls are such a$$holes!:mad:

And I've got my Open Face Motorcycle Helmet on, so I don't bump my Head when the CHOOL Buz swerves.... Maybe we should start wearing the YEDDOW Wain Slickers too?????

[braddubya]

Ok let me first apologize for the last few comments of my first post. I realize that they came off very rude. The first section however I would like to focus on as I spent some time trying to put that together in the most logical way I know how.

How do you explain input x output x+ ?

I really would like to have a discussion and I would gladly edit the first post to remove the last part. I dont think the rest of it should be offensive in anyway.

Also to the first poster: I have no idea who you are and certainly did not follow you here from anywhere else.

[BioFarmer93]

Good, go away anyway.

[braddubya]

No one wants to defend this technology? I will not make any offensive comments.

[BioFarmer93]

OK Brad, I'll try to be civil to you just one time so you'll know that I'm capable of it. No one here feels the need to defend this tech because we're all using it and it's working for all of us (well, most of us- some of us are still fighting with our vehicles' ECU's.) Anyway, for those of us that have won the ECU battle, and especially we dieselheads, the results speak for themselves. As I stated in the first reponse to you, read the testimonials. Positive results are all over the 'net, and we are hardly the only BB out there where these results can be found. You are only going to catch a lot of flak here because of your stance on the tech. Buy or build your own unit, install it, measure before and after mileage, then come back. Until that time no one here is going to give you the time of day, especially to debate the theory of a tech that we have put into practice with positive results.

[braddubya]

Im just hoping to find someone on this forum who is interested in the scientific method who can explain the mechanism that allows these increases in MPG.

Testimonials mean nothing as there are many "Junk Sciences" (not claiming this is necessarily one of them) out there that provide testimonials as well. Look at astrology, psychics, faith healers, etc. They all are backed solely by testimonials.

EDIT: One other quick note. I like HHO I have built a generator before and its very fun. I am even interested in learning how to build better generators and possibly building a torch for welding. I am only trying to oppose the use of these in vehicles because logically it does not work, unless someone can show me otherwise.

[myoldyourgold]

I will have to admit there are some parts, but not all, of the technology which is not yet explainable in scientific or mathematical formula. That does not mean there isn't any scientific explanation. Some of us are working on a daily bases to find the answers and back it up with known science and scientific testing. If a new discovery is made you will surely hear about it. The fact that it works is proven without a doubt. This does not include the snake oil sellers trying to rob people, and there are many. I believe you need to start with proving to yourself that it works physically. If you have trouble in your testing come back and I am sure you will find lots of help. That is what mentors do here as a rule. You need to read my signature below and understand what it really means and then couple that with your understanding on what you have learned.

[FuzzyTomCat]

I think I might know who you are, and If I'm right, then I resent the hell out of you following me over here and being a troll. If you are not who I think you are and are just a random troll, I still resent the hell out of you. No one here feels like wasting keyboard strokes and time arguing with you for the sake of "discussion". It's been re-hashed so any times that unless you are willing to build a unit and see for yourself, I seriously doubt that anyone else on this board except another noob will respond to you. Your first post is so obviously designed to incite that it is laughably pathetic. Please feel free to read the testamonials before you are banned.


**Note To Admin** User braddubya is a TROLL **Please Ban**

Hi BioFarmer,

I totally understand your concerns ... but maybe ... or possibly we have a "Automotive Engineering Technology Student at MNSU" or even a graduate here. Just remember that all students are taught by academics that go strictly by older "MAINSTREAM" beliefs and very few teach cutting edge technologies such as privately owned laboratories or experimentalists doing "HANDS ON" work.

There are ground breaking discoveries happening right now with a "New" water-splitting catalyst that's been found http://www.physorg.com/news193055742.html it's just a matter of time now.

Regards,
FuzzyTomCat
:)

[braddubya]

if your attempt is build one for torch, then you are half way there for vehicle application. If you can produce that flame from the result of your generator what makes you think it cannot do the ICE any good. I am not one to explain to you the logic how this works, I can only share what evey car and truck gas or diesel is doing with a system I build for them.

I dont doubt for a second that your units are producing HHO and that that HHO is being burned by the car. I doubt that the unit violates the laws of physics specifically the conservation of energy which it would have to to work. Unless there is some other reason which would need to be explained.



You said you build one. tells us the configuration? size plates, how many bipolar, what kind of output? If you have data to those question, then you have what it takes to apply it to your car.

I built a very small one out of household odds and ends. I want to build a larger dry cell to run a torch.



One of the demo I do when someone in a parking lot questions the process specially when the person questioning it, their car runs rough. I simply ask them if they would like a demo and then I park my 2009 F-150 next to theirs have them pop the hood as I do disconnect the supply hose from my unit and then feed their car with 2.5 lpm HHO.


This is not a valid demonstration as the HHO unit is being powered by your vehicle but pumping into another. In this case the car receiving the HHO is gaining energy but the car running the system is losing energy.



Get to know this process sleep thinking of a better way to make HHO for less amp, get up and build what you dreamed of then test it on your 45K truck. then come back and share with us your findings and we will help you fine tune it for gain.

you second is up.

The burden of proof is not on the skeptic. The default position is always disbelief until evidence is provided.


I like the attitude of this movement - trying to help with the oil crisis. I just dont think it works. If anyone can describe how it does im all ears and willing to admit my mistake.

[braddubya]

If these devices actually work then you have made the worlds first over unity device. In order for them to work you must be getting more output then input.

You could in fact then build a perpetual motion device. Have a engine running on HHO producing HHO that it feeds itself. :eek:

Thats where my disbelief comes from.

[astrocady]

The simple explanation of why HHO works...

The hydrogen gas burns very hot and very fast. When it is mixed with the intake air, hydrogen molecules are distributed through the combustion chamber. When ignition occurs, all the hydrogen burns instantaneously, which in turns ignites the gasoline. It's like having a thousand tiny spark plugs in the chamber, igniting all the gasoline at the same time.

The increase in performance comes from burning the gasoline that normally passes through the exhaust unburnt -- not from the power derived from burning the hydrogen.

[myoldyourgold]

The burden of proof is not on the skeptic. The default position is always disbelief until evidence is provided.


I like the attitude of this movement - trying to help with the oil crisis. I just don't think it works. If anyone can describe how it does im all ears and willing to admit my mistake.

Some people are blinded by there strong belief in what seems to be quite straight forward to them. 1 + 1 = 2. But others see it as 11 (eleven). There is no over unity here at least not known to me. There is a lot of science that is not totally understood in reference to electrolysis, for instance the fact that electrolyte is non ohmic thus causing a some what incalculable component in the process. This causes a big problem in the explanation of what is happening. There are many many more things with very complex and changing characteristics involved. I suggest you continue your research and understand what is really going on beside the power in and power out are equal or less. There is much more than that involved. You have made it only a foot off home plate. At the rate you are going you will never see a home run. Your skepticism is only demonstrating more and more your lack of knowledge on the subject. This I can see is going to be a waste of time and no body will want to feed someone who shows such lack of ability and want to learn. For this reason I will not make any further commit on this subject.

[Owen_]

Astrocady's comment is right on, but there is more to it.

First off if you were to add a little propane (or other flammable gas) to the intake you would get better fuel economy, even when you factor in the BTU's of the propane. Injectors are not perfect, and small droplets are formed, these don't completely burn in time to give all of the energy they have. This is an inefficiency that we are trying to improve. Hydrogen is much better at this than propane, as it burns much faster. Oxygen makes it even better.

Second supplemental hydrogen allows for a leaner burn, with out damaging the engine, or causing higher levels of NOx in the exhaust.

The biggest problem facing the HHO people; is the HHO snake oil salesmen. There are people out there saying a cell makes energy, which is obviously BS. People saying they have a 300% improvement in FE is BS. There is obviously a loss in energy from the alternator, so there really is a ideal size for an HHO cell. This needs more testing to determent the exact amount of HHO to maximize improvements, but this is different for every type of engine.

It is clear that a really efficient HHO cell is best, and big gains are not guaranteed.

[braddubya]

The simple explanation of why HHO works...

The hydrogen gas burns very hot and very fast. When it is mixed with the intake air, hydrogen molecules are distributed through the combustion chamber. When ignition occurs, all the hydrogen burns instantaneously, which in turns ignites the gasoline. It's like having a thousand tiny spark plugs in the chamber, igniting all the gasoline at the same time.

The increase in performance comes from burning the gasoline that normally passes through the exhaust unburnt -- not from the power derived from burning the hydrogen.

I like this. You have provided something that is logical and can be tested. If this is true than I would have to admit to being wrong. I dont know of a way personally to verify this but I dont see any reason to think it could not be true.

[braddubya]

There is much more than that involved. You have made it only a foot off home plate. At the rate you are going you will never see a home run. Your skepticism is only demonstrating more and more your lack of knowledge on the subject. This I can see is going to be a waste of time and no body will want to feed someone who shows such lack of ability and want to learn. For this reason I will not make any further commit on this subject.

Im skeptical because up until the most recent comments no one including your self had seemed to have any logical idea why it might work. I would not say it demonstrates my lack of knowledge on the subject but perhaps your own as you could not provide an answer. And how you decided I "shows such lack of ability and want to learn" is beyond me. As i have been asking for an explanation of how it works.

[lhazleton]

If these devices actually work then you have made the worlds first over unity device. In order for them to work you must be getting more output then input.

You could in fact then build a perpetual motion device. Have a engine running on HHO producing HHO that it feeds itself. :eek:

Thats where my disbelief comes from.

Nobody is 'running' an ICE on HHO. Anyone claiming to is full of $hit.
All I'm going to say is that hydroxy gas acts as a catalyst in the combustion chamber. All injected gasoline is burned as long as the ignition timing is retarded (like all of us) to match the increased flame-front speed.
As long as the reactor is properly built with quality parts (not friggin' household crapola), and it's output equals 1/2 the ICE's displacement, and the ECU it tricked to shorten the pulse time, it works beautifully.
Try building a reactor the right way, build an EFIE, and see what happens.

[myoldyourgold]

Im skeptical because up until the most recent comments no one including your self had seemed to have any logical idea why it might work. I would not say it demonstrates my lack of knowledge on the subject but perhaps your own as you could not provide an answer. And how you decided I "shows such lack of ability and want to learn" is beyond me. As i have been asking for an explanation of how it works.

I am sorry that I might have offended you, sense It seems I have, I am forced to answer you. I guess I have to explain to you what I thought, was quite obvious. As you can see I am a Beginner and I thought that if I was able to find the information with my feeble mind without asking any broad questions, then some one with any intelligence at all should be able to do the same. I must have been mistaken on your ability to do the research. I tried to prompt you by telling you that almost all the information has already been posted at least once and now it is getting posted all over again. Did you use the search feature? Have you used Google or other search engines yet? You said you had studied this extensively in order to come up with your skepticism. I still do not believe that. I have been wrong before and if I am I make apologies in advance. Now does that explain why I thought you lacked the ability to learn. It has been so long I have almost forgotten how my 3 year old kept asking WHY for everything but this brings back those memories. I had to bite my tongue then and I guess I will do the same in your case but for different reasons.

[BioFarmer93]

Hey Lee...
Ol' Brad here pi$$ed me off enough to think the whole thing through again, and you know what? I think I just thought of another reason why it works- chew on this and see what you think, or maybe it's just time for my medicine... Anyway, HHO makes super fast flame front for highly efficient fuel burn with higher specific impulse, HHO consumed first, its exhaust product (water) is available as a non compressible but phase changeable product. Steam. Steam expands about 1800x the size of the amount of water that made it. Thanks to Helz we already know that the water vapor injection works to add power and extend mileage. My water injection efforts on the diesel seem to be working quite well and and brought my mileage up from 13.5 to 16.7 on a recent 300 mile trip. Perhaps this is the other side of the HHO coin...

[lhazleton]

Thanks. I was just going to relax and you just HAD TO POST! Now, I'll be thinking about this all night. Thanks sooooo much!!!!!:D
Check out the other recent posts in this forum. You're in for a 'treat' LOL. You'll find the one I'm talking about.

[lhazleton]

Shane,
You know what I meant. I'm talking about driving around with nothing but HHO.:rolleyes:
Damn grOup idIOt! LOL

[myoldyourgold]

braddubya, here is some home work. Now these are used by even the snake oil vendors but are still worth reading and should have been part of you study. Geder ON

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11/hydrogenenhance.html

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/facts-research/research-technology/report/Guidelines-H2-Fuel-in-CMVs-Nov2007.pdf

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19770016170_1977016170.pdf

[braddubya]

I tried to prompt you by telling you that almost all the information has already been posted at least once and now it is getting posted all over again. Did you use the search feature? Have you used Google or other search engines yet?

Im not sure if you have seen the inerwebs lately (kidding) but if you search HHO there is nothing but gobs and gobs of BS. so far one man has shown different colors then the rest. FYI this man was not you. If you want to see for yourself reread this thread and google HHO for yourself. Gobs and gobs of bull ****. Maybe if you google astrocady you will find something worth investigating but not much else.


You said you had studied this extensively in order to come up with your skepticism.

Please show me where I said this because in the hand full of posts I have made I cannot find any statement close to this. I attacked the concept logically. No one but astrocady came close to providing a logical counter argument.


I am sorry that I might have offended you, sense It seems I have, I am forced to answer you. I guess I have to explain to you what I thought, was quite obvious. As you can see I am a Beginner and I thought that if I was able to find the information with my feeble mind without asking any broad questions, then some one with any intelligence at all should be able to do the same. I must have been mistaken on your ability to do the research.

It has been so long I have almost forgotten how my 3 year old kept asking WHY for everything but this brings back those memories. I had to bite my tongue then and I guess I will do the same in your case but for different reasons.

I already apologized for my misconduct in offending the people of this forum. I will not make the same mistake again by retaliating to your disrespect. I also somehow doubt your 3 year old asked about the fuel burning efficiency of a gasoline engine that is being supplemented with browns gas. If he/she has I would appreciate if you allowed me to talk to him/her so he/she could explain how this works better than yourself.

ok maybe that was a low blow...but i dont think it was unwarranted.

Honestly the previous informational posts have shown me a logical concept which I had not thought of or found previously. I will admit that I was looking at the problem much too simplified and that there are more variables to take into account. Thank you forum members who were able to put my foot in my mouth with simple logical information. There is something to learned from your approach.

Until I find a flaw in the concept or find evidence for...im out...unless someone has something more to say.

[BioFarmer93]

Brad, everyone likes Mr. Spock, no one likes a smartass wannabe Mr. Spock, and personally I think we have entertained you long enough. You don't know enough to have a flippin' opinion about anything, and as far as learning enough here to have an opinion, I suggest you do so respectfully, without being a smartass. Being a smartass is a privilege reserved for mentors and those with something positive to contribute. As yet, you are neither.

[Roland Jacques]

Hi Brad,

1. HHO boosting, done right, minimizes wasted energy. (mainly heat) That's all. It does not make extra energy, It simply just Minimizes wasted energy.

2. Yes, it uses energy to minimize wasted energy and that may be difficult to understand.
There are other components of the modern ICE that do the same thing. Yes they also use extra energy to minimize wasted energy.
(A.) Compared to the old carburetor ICE, the Electronic Fuel Injectors use energy to minimize wasted energy.
(B) Compared to inferior older Ignition systems, high energy ignition systems use more energy to minimize wasted energy.

If you really want to understand how HHO boosting can work. You first need to understand all the types of energy transfers that take place in a ICE. When you understand all the different types of energy transferring going on, you can easily see where minimizing some of that waste can take place. Yes, it can be done by altering the fuel at the expense of some energy.

Id ask you to think of 5 types of energy transfers and put them in order of which ones you think waste the most energy in the ICE. Then we can go from there. If you want to. :)

[astrocady]

I like this. You have provided something that is logical and can be tested. If this is true than I would have to admit to being wrong. I dont know of a way personally to verify this but I dont see any reason to think it could not be true.

Go to http://h2tek.com/dyno-test.html and check out what happens to the exhaust emissions when HHO is introduced. The only explanation for these reductions is that the fuel (in this case diesel) is being burned more completely, thus reducing the emissions. Also note that these readings were taken by a California State certified emissions testing firm. When the State wants to check to see if a company's engines meed their standards (and if they can therefore issue them an expensive ticket) they send this firm into the field to conduct the test.

[IM2L844]

Brad,

A few years ago I was just as skeptical as you are. I remained skeptical until I built my own electrochemical reactor, installed in on my own vehicle and performed hundreds of miles worth of testing with positive results. Back then, there was far less information available than you have access to today.

I suspect that the reason nobody offered the simple explanation that Astrocady gave is because it is so widely disseminated and accepted as common knowledge within the HHO research community and you gave the impression that you had already spent some time investigating and searching for a logical explanation, so everyone assumed, as I did, that you had already come across that argument and dismissed it out of hand.

I would like to add one thing to Astro's explanation because, if you continue your research, you will eventually come across the counter argument against it which is that it requires at least a 4% concentration by volume of pure hydrogen in air at standard T&P before it will ignite and when you do the math the average system doesn't put out nearly enough HHO to provide that ratio in an ICE at cruising speeds (RPM's).

What the naysayers continually overlook is the fact that we are not talking about pure hydrogen in air at standard T&P. We are talking about HHO (a much more volatile gas) in an already combustible mixture of gasoline vapors and air compressed to more than 150 psi and raised to a pre-ignition temperature of nearly 200 degrees F. I'm not aware of any definitive testing that has been done in this area, but I suspect that the minimum concentration of HHO required for ignition by volume in this environment is far less than 1% which means that very little HHO can produce the effect Astrocady described.

[myoldyourgold]

Brad I again have to apologize. It was my mistake to have read to much between the lines. I took it, by the statements you made that the only way you could have acquired this knowledge was by research. I assumed you were not born with it(maybe I was wrong) and must have done some extensive research. It was not directly stated by you, but this kind of information had to come from some where. The only way I got the same information you posted is by researching the subject. Now I hope the information already posted answers your question. If not narrow it down to what part you have a problem with and we will help out if possible. :)

[braddubya]

All of this new information I find very interesting.

I did not research *extensively* was what I was getting at. I looked into what it was and what the claims were and then saw the logical flaw with MOST peoples claims and descriptions of how it worked.

I originally discovered HHO when a guy was telling me about how he was going to build a vehicle that ran only on HHO that it was producing. I knew this was not possible.


I am still skeptical but this other theory is plausible.

I still dont understand why if it works no auto manufacturer in the world has picked up on it as its sounds that it could be incorporated into a vehicle line with very little effort.

[myoldyourgold]

Brad it is like Shane says soon. This is very close to going main stream. There are a number of agreements already in place. Sit back and watch.

[Philldpapill]

Braddubya,
I'm an electrical engineer, and I was VERY skeptical at first - for the same reasons as you. However, in designing a bunch of electrical stuff, I've often come across things that SHOULD by all accounts work, but they don't. I've also come across things that should NEVER work, yet they do. In both of these types, there's always some little "oh yeah.... duh..." bug that wasn't ever considered. HHO, I think, is in the latter group.

My laptop battery is about to die, so I'm gonna make this short. The theory is that HHO allows the EXISTING energy to be converted to MECHANICAL energy more EFFICIENTLY. The mechanism of action isn't very well understood, but you will see very little, if any, talk about over unity or X joules in = X + Y joules out... We're, for the most part, pretty level headed people over here searching for WHY HHO works... And battery death in 3...2....1..........

[astrocady]

I still dont understand why if it works no auto manufacturer in the world has picked up on it as its sounds that it could be incorporated into a vehicle line with very little effort.

The reason is that 99% of new car buyers want their car to be tinker free. Hardly anyone even checks their oil anymore. Many automatic transmissions don't even dipsticks. HHO systems require tinkering. You need to add water, make sure the electrolyte concentration remains within limits, change the bubbler water, etc, etc. For some, the gains are worth the hassle -- but for most it just wouldn't fly.

[IM2L844]

I agree with astro. A cost effective, tinker free system for the average layperson would be nearly impossible to design...with "cost effective" being the operative term. I know a tinker free system could be built, but I don't believe the fuel savings would be able to offset the cost of such a system over the life of the vehicle. Even if it could, it would still require, at the least, intermittent servicing by a qualified professional.

The averge person won't even get their oil changed every time they are supposed to, but neglecting service to this system could be catastrophically dangerous and a huge legal liability to the manufacturers.

[cabrera]

It's impossible.
HHO doesn't work.
The increase in my trucks mileage is a "MIRACLE"

The miracle of our Lord & Savior ...Stan Meyers!
The father of hydroxy
To fight the evil Satan of petroleum....
"CAN I GET AN AMEN!"
"I SAID, CAN I GET AN AMEN BROTHERS!"

It's a matter of FAITH... & LOVE of the GAS (gotta love the gas)
You gotta believe, & the TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE!!!


Hallelujah & PRAISE the LORD!!

http://amessageinthestorm.com/images/preacher.gif

[Roland Jacques]

Braddubya,
I'm an electrical engineer, and I was VERY skeptical at first - for the same reasons as you. However, in designing a bunch of electrical stuff, I've often come across things that SHOULD by all accounts work, but they don't. I've also come across things that should NEVER work, yet they do. In both of these types, there's always some little "oh yeah.... duh..." bug that wasn't ever considered. HHO, I think, is in the latter group.

My laptop battery is about to die, so I'm gonna make this short. The theory is that HHO allows the EXISTING energy to be converted to MECHANICAL energy more EFFICIENTLY. The mechanism of action isn't very well understood,..

I would like to second the "not being well understood" part. Never the less the results prove that in fact it does in many cases/done right convert the energy of the gasoline into more usable crankshaft energy.

[cabrera]

As for the maintenance.... how hard is it to add water??

just my opinion.... :D

Shane

Shane
That's Hard Work!

http://images.travelpod.com/users/johnmyers2/1.1206129540.just-add-water.jpg
Scientifically speaking...
Why does water pour? :p

[lhazleton]

Smack looks different with a cowboy hat on. That must be special water he uses for his TI reactors.:rolleyes:

[Philldpapill]

lhazleton... L-M-F-A-O

[lhazleton]

Thanks, Phil. At least someone (unlike Larry) appreciates my humor.:p

[H2OPWR]

Thanks, Phil. At least someone (unlike Larry) appreciates my humor.:p

OK Lee, It was funny:) You happy now?

Larry

[lhazleton]

Thank-you, Larry. You know how sensitive we retards are.............:o

[CNM DESIGN]

Braddubya

Ok let me first apologize for the last few comments of my first post. I realize that they came off very rude. The first section however I would like to focus on as I spent some time trying to put that together in the most logical way I know how.

How do you explain input x output x+ ?

I really would like to have a discussion and I would gladly edit the first post to remove the last part. I dont think the rest of it should be offensive in anyway.

Also to the first poster: I have no idea who you are and certainly did not follow you here from anywhere else.


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Energy in x= Energy out x, yes.

Put from all of the post I have read, all the nay sayers have left out the most important equation in the formula and that’s $.

2009 driver Joe drives 64 miles a day to work and back.
64 x 5 = 320 miles a week x 52 = 16,640 miles a year.
Car before HHO gets 15mpg. 16,640 divided by 15 = 1,109 gal of gas.
1,109 gal of gas at an avg. cost of $2.75 = $3,049.75 per year in gas money.

2010 driver Joe has his new HHO maker in his car.
64 x 5 = 320 miles a week x 52 = 16,640 miles a year.
Car with HHO now gets 19mpg. 16,640 divided by 19 = 876 gal of gas.
876 gal of gas at an avg. cost of $2.75 = $2,409.00 per year in gas money.

$3,049.75 - $2,409.00 = a total savings of $640.75

2012 driver Joe with his HHO maker in his car.
64 x 5 = 320 miles a week x 52 = 16,640 miles a year.
Car with HHO still gets 19mpg. 16,640 divided by 19 = 876 gal of gas.
876 gal of gas at an avg. cost of $4.00 = $3,504.00 per year in gas money.

2009 car with out HHO and gas at $2.75 a gal= $3.049.75
2012 car with out HHO and gas at $4.00 a gal= $4,436.00
2012 car with HHO and gas at $4.00 a gal= $3,504.00

$4,436.00 - $3,504.00 = a total savings of $932.00

Now maybe you don’t need an extra K a year to live on. If so, then your only here to p*ss every one off.

As for me, and maybe most of the rest on this forum, we could use the money.

No one here is trying to get Energy in x = Energy out x +.
They are trying to get Energy in x = Energy out x+$

It’s simple, if you don’t get Energy in x = Energy out x+$ then your wasting your time.

*Hope my math is right. If not, you know what I mean.

[phantasm48]

The simple explanation of why HHO works...

The hydrogen gas burns very hot and very fast. When it is mixed with the intake air, hydrogen molecules are distributed through the combustion chamber. When ignition occurs, all the hydrogen burns instantaneously, which in turns ignites the gasoline. It's like having a thousand tiny spark plugs in the chamber, igniting all the gasoline at the same time.

The increase in performance comes from burning the gasoline that normally passes through the exhaust unburnt -- not from the power derived from burning the hydrogen.

That has got to be the best explanation on this entire forum! I'm with dubya on the impossibility of a perpetual motion machine, but your explanation above is exactly it. We're just making the whole ICE process more efficient, ironically by combining it with another, somewhat inefficient process that complements it, chemically.

[waterbugs]

I read this info somewhere b4. There's people that are saving on the mpg. So your theory about adding resistance to the alternator is equal to the kinetic energy giving back is equal is wrong . Have you ever have on put into you car yet. When you talk you got to have the material in front of you to prove or disprove it just like all of us in here. We got the material to prove it not just any theory. Theory is just a theory until its the fact when you have something to play with and show it, even than it's still can have many mistake. I guess you don't know what a close control experiment means if you're so smart.

[joshua]

how about super and turbo chargers? they take power to run as well, but produce a positive gain in the end. I plan on trying it before trying to disprove its effectiveness

[kcarring]

"The only way HHO could work is to generate it off of a different power source and then load it on the vehicle in gas form. However this would require large tanks of pressurized explosive gas/oxygen mixture. You would be driving a bomb."

By Joe, he's done it! Disproved finally, with some grade 10 math! Yeesh why didn't anyone think of this?!?!? BRILLIANT - now lets all turn our dry cells into coffee coasters.

Hey, on that note, I also hate how my diesel loses 20% fuel economy when my headlights go on... what is with this alternator bull$#@! anyway, perhaps my available torque cannot handle it? And also, what is with this fuel, diesel... it must provide 100% explosive efficiency during combustion, I can't possibly get anything more out of it. hmm

F%$! HHO, I'm cutting holes in the floorboards like Fred Flinstone did for my boost.

Narrow minds haha

If I can fill the back of my truck with 1000lbs and experience no perceivable difference in fuel economy, (my personal test was done over 4 test 2000km total - I burnt the same loaded as i did empty.) My diesel has available torque. It has available amps. Its injection at top dead center loves a little kick. You notice it on hills. You notice it at the cash register. I think my alternator can handle an additional load of 17a dude. Just like i think if i tied a naysayer and dragged him down the road, my fuel economy likely wouldn't change.

[waterbugs]

dude if you got the wrong set up or some crapy little generator , than you deserves it. Show some picture of your stuff some we all can see hows your set up ,so that we can agree or disagree .

[BioFarmer93]

My God, is this thread still alive?!? --MODERATOR!! Oh wait, I see it was last stirred on the 21st... Whew! what a relief...

[waterbugs]

So when producing hho , engine burn more gas because alternator has higher resistance. That means no gain in mpg because resistance is now equal to opposite force to kenitic energy from burnnig hho, right? This means that the toyotas and hondas hybrid would not work because when the hybrid is running on gas it should be burning more gas to recharge the batteries, than when it time to switch back to battery , its just using the energy store in the battery that it needs to burn more gas to recharge anyway right. I guess we are a bunch of idiots buying hybid that give out 50mpg. What are you gonna say now Stein?

[waterbugs]

I'll be waiting for an answer for a long time because this dude got this info from somewhere, he's not smart enough to figure out that theory himself. I've read about it somewhere before too. So if you came up with the theory about the resistance on the alternator then you must be smart enough to come up with another explaining about how hybrids works or don't work, Hey everybody that's reading this just look at the date and time of the message and see how long this genius is gonna take to respond. Go ahead and do your research because you are speechless now. I'll have an answer for what your about come with when you come up with it and it's gonna come from my brain not someone else. I'm ready when you are.

[Roland Jacques]

I must be missing something here. Who is still arguing that HHO boosting does not work???

I think they got the point, or did i miss something?

[lhazleton]

Amen, Roland.........this thread's been dead for months now!

[Stevo]

Thanks to Helz we already know that the water vapor injection works to add power and extend mileage.

Thank you very much since I was the one to show him how to set his system up. lol

[Farrahday]

The simple explanation of why HHO works...

The hydrogen gas burns very hot and very fast. When it is mixed with the intake air, hydrogen molecules are distributed through the combustion chamber. When ignition occurs, all the hydrogen burns instantaneously, which in turns ignites the gasoline. It's like having a thousand tiny spark plugs in the chamber, igniting all the gasoline at the same time.

The increase in performance comes from burning the gasoline that normally passes through the exhaust unburnt -- not from the power derived from burning the hydrogen.

Very well put! I've just read through this thread and the above statement just about covers it. And, this is where most people tend to misunderstand the principle.

Basically then a standard electrolyser simply adds hydroxy which increases the burn efficiency of the fuel we are using, and as such gives us less unburnt or wasted by-products. However, from this we can see that any increase in fuel economy will be extremely limited, as there is only so much unburnt fuel.

So, if we assume (as science tends to dictate) that we get no more energy out of the hydroxy than it took to make it, then the only gain in fuel efficiency comes from our existing fuel burning better.

However, even for this to work, you need to have a well-designed and well-built electrolyser. An electrolyser that is very inefficient to start with will never be able to make up the energy losses and will ultimately decrease fuel efficiency, and thereby increase fuel consumption. And this is where many people fall down and why so many people fail miserably when attempting to make a hydrobooster.

With a standard brute force electrolyser, you will never achieve the theoretical maximum Faraday gas output, so you are always on your back foot to start with. But bodge together an ill-conceived, poorly designed and built electrolyser, and you are simply wasting your time altogether.

There are however, other types of electrolysers that can surpass Faraday's maximum theoretical gas output for any given power input, not by breaking Faraday's Laws of Electrolysis, but by incorporating additional mechanisims to break down water into its component gases.