Alternative vacuum source

[shovel52]

I have been experimenting with vacuum vs. atmospheric cell preferences. Most people agree that a cell operated under a vacuum will produce much more hho than at atmosphere. The problem is where do you input it? You can't input hho from a vacuum cell into the air intake where it belongs. Most people either use the brake booster or the pcv valve for a vacuum cell. I would like to try to use a pump, such as an ac. compressor or a smog control air pump to create the vacuum, then you could direct you hho into the air intake. I am up for ideas here, would the smog control air pump pull a deep enough vacuum and would this be safe? I am up for any input on this.

[stickittoopec]

I don't know about making more hydrogen but with the higher under hood temperatures you will boil the water. A vacuum over the water will cause it to boil at a lower temperature.

[countryboy18]

is that a problem if the water is boiling. you will have less water in the cell so then you have a higher amount of what ever chemical in the water remaining. but the water vapor from the boiling water would be stopped at the blubber and not go into the engine.

[BoyntonStu]

"Most people agree that a cell operated under a vacuum will produce much more hho than at atmosphere."

I disagree. There is no basis of fact for this.

A vacuum will produce low temperature steam that LOOKS like Hydroxy bubbles and often fools experimenters.

BoyntonStu

[countryboy18]

but only the H gas will pass through the blubber and be measured in lpm the steam "water vapor" will be mixed with the water in the blubber and not go into the lpm measuring bottle. i could be wrong?

[shovel52]

I don't have any kind of boiling problem since my cell sits in the back of the truck. I am using 4 gallons of water, and the cell never gets over luke warm. I do have an out gassing problem using that much water, out gassing starts the second vacuum is applied and is visible in the bubbler. This is another issue that has to be addressed. However I am making app 1
lpm at atmospheric pressure and the only way to see if the cell produces more under vacuum " cant measure it" would be to direct the output into the butterfly of the carb where it belongs and test mpgs. The pump to supply the vacuum, in my opinion is a great idea and would answer the question "or one of them" as to which route is the best way to go, vacuum or at atmosphere.

[EltonBrandd]

I don't have any kind of boiling problem since my cell sits in the back of the truck. I am using 4 gallons of water, and the cell never gets over luke warm. I do have an out gassing problem using that much water, out gassing starts the second vacuum is applied and is visible in the bubbler. This is another issue that has to be addressed. However I am making app 1
lpm at atmospheric pressure and the only way to see if the cell produces more under vacuum " cant measure it" would be to direct the output into the butterfly of the carb where it belongs and test mpgs. The pump to supply the vacuum, in my opinion is a great idea and would answer the question "or one of them" as to which route is the best way to go, vacuum or at atmosphere.

If you apply vacuum to the cell with something other than the engine then all your output will go in to that source. If you use engine vacuum then you can count on the cell loosing water due to engine vacuum. And there is no evidence that you get more gas under vacuum.

[Smith03Jetta]

I do not think anybody on this forum has the equipment necessary to test the Hydrogen/Oxygen/Water-Vapor parts per million. The second best way to tell if the vacuum helps or hurts or has no effect on production is to hook it up to your car and see how it affects your gas mileage. Regardless of what is coming out of your electrolyzer, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Water Vapor or Zinc Oxide, if it helps your fuel economy and your engine's performance a measurable amount then it's a good thing. I personally am not working with vacuum because I don't want to implode my pretty yellow case.

[Omega]

I've done it both ways. My advice? Forget about the vacuum line input. Too many problems, too much risk. Questionable benefit.

YMMV

[shovel52]

Hook it up where? that was the point of this post. The proper place to hook it up is just above the butterfly valve, however that cant be done if it is under a vacuum. Hooking to the booster is very questionable, motors
were not made for inputting gas to the rear of the manifold. and hooking to the pcv valve would give exactly the opposite effect that you're looking for.

Everyone is too quick to dismiss the vacuum cell concept, and hooking it to your booster to test mpgs and then quitting there is not going to get it.
I propose to feed the input to the air flow. It's too simple to dismiss now since I have not found anyone who has even attempted it. So I will post results.

[ridelong]

I was of the opinion that the HHO should be introduced upstream of the butterfly. Got 37.5% increase there.

Then I installed HHO on my friends honda. He wanted to try it on the intake manifold. Got 53% increase using the same HHO gen. as mine.

I now have my HHO gen. on the intake manifold. Will report at fillup.

[shovel52]

Thats wild, I drove around one afternoon with gauges on all ports of the manifold. apon acceleration vacuum drops to almost nothing. I dont see how you can gain mileage if vacuum is acting the opposite of what your foot is doing on the pedal. Also I would like to know how you did your mpg tests, to do it correctly, You need to spend an afternoon driving on flat surface, at the same speed and introduce a quart of gas at a time and run your tank dry. You need to do this several times so there is no error. I went through all of this when i started testing, its the only way to do it right, and I did report false information to people because I reported wrong. i'm not saying your info is incorrect but it is a big difference from my gains, and I have no oxygen sensor , map sensor , or any thing else . just a 4 cylinder toyota. And I am introducing app. 1 lpm from the generator. The butterfly valve is the only way I showed any gains at all.

I would also like to respond to a statement by Elton brandd, I don't underestand your comment. If you use a vacuum pump to sustain a vacuum on the cell, the out put will go where ever you direct it to. into the air if you dont have it hooked to some kind of recovery system etc. In this case it would be directed to the butterfly valve.

[Farmercal]

Thats wild, I drove around one afternoon with gauges on all ports of the manifold. apon acceleration vacuum drops to almost nothing. I dont see how you can gain mileage if vacuum is acting the opposite of what your foot is doing on the pedal. Also I would like to know how you did your mpg tests, to do it correctly, You need to spend an afternoon driving on flat surface, at the same speed and introduce a quart of gas at a time and run your tank dry. You need to do this several times so there is no error. I went through all of this when i started testing, its the only way to do it right, and I did report false information to people because I reported wrong. i'm not saying your info is incorrect but it is a big difference from my gains, and I have no oxygen sensor , map sensor , or any thing else . just a 4 cylinder toyota. And I am introducing app. 1 lpm from the generator. The butterfly valve is the only way I showed any gains at all.

I would also like to respond to a statement by Elton brandd, I don't underestand your comment. If you use a vacuum pump to sustain a vacuum on the cell, the out put will go where ever you direct it to. into the air if you dont have it hooked to some kind of recovery system etc. In this case it would be directed to the butterfly valve.
I would advise folks not to run an automobile with the new fuel pump (which is located inside the fuel tank) dry of gas. If you do, you will burn up the fuel pump. The gas around the fuel pump is the only thing that keeps it cool.

[ridelong]

shovel52,

First, be carefull, somewhere on this site someone tried it and the vacuum pump ignited the HHO----BOOM.

I use my truck pretty much to get to work. I fill up at the same station, same pump each time, let the pump click itself off at full. I do not fill up unless I have less than 1/4 tank, usually 1/8, so variables are minimized. Reset the odometer each time I fill up. Then just miles traveled divided by gallons at fillup. Did 2 baseline runs, and they were almost identical.

I didn't ask my friend how he got his results.

But I will report when I fill up.

When I thought about it, the majority of my driving is with the throttle plate almost closed. Hard acceleration maybe 5%. I dont think my gen. can keep up anyway on hard acceleration. So I generate as much as possible (vacuum) the majority of the time (not hard acceleration).

[Sfair74]

Well I have seen several units that are connected to the vacuum AND to the air intake. With 1 1-way valve on each. Since Vac is highest at idle and vac pressure is highest in the air intake at WOT. That way the source with the highest vacuum will always be in affect on the cell.

What I was thinking was using a funnel system to create amplify the vacuum in the air intake. Use a small funnel shape linking into a Y shaped plumbing valve to try to take the incoming air flow and force it into the funnel and increasing the air speed through a small tube to increase the vacuum in the intake. But I haven't tested this idea so it is pure theory and properly will not work. Another option is to use a funnel and additional filter to create the air speed required but most likely it will not increase the vacuum and will instead try to pressurize the cell. Well one way to find out.

There are several videos on youtube of people applying vacuum to a HHO cell. The affect is that production appears to be boosted but the amps the cell draws is greatly reduced.

[shovel52]

Very good , you are the very first I have run across that has even talked about trying this. I have tried several methods of making the funnel etc. to try and get more vacuum at the carb input but nothing seems to work. I have a funnell shaped tube stuck into the carb right now. It does draw a slight vacuum "seen as bubbles in the bubbler" and more when you accelerate, however no vacuum on a gauge when applied to the cell. You have to have a deep vacuum to get the real benifits. However, you are going to have the outgassing problems at that level also. I still think that any out gassing you would have at deep vacuum wouldn't matter since it would be acting as air flow anyway. But injecting all of these "garbage gasses" along with the hho into the booster or pcv I have found , doesn't work . Well I was just told that someone blew themselves up trying to use an alternative vacuum pump. So this avenue still remains unexplored. This however in my opinion could be a giant step forward if the right technique could come along. Keep thinking along these terms and maybe we can come up with something, and maybe start a new thread on the subject.

[ridelong]

shovel52,

What are the garbage gasses?

[shovel52]

When vacuum is applied "or deep vacuum anyway" you get a degassing of the water, and there are over 45 different gasses in the water that are released. Methane , carbon dioxide, on and on, Thats why a lot of people think that the water is boiling when deep vacuum is applied. It could be boiling if there is a little heat because water does boil at room temperature under vacuum, "in that case you will see water vapor" but if not, it is just different gasses being released. I am not a scientist but I have this problem on my generator . I have tried running under deep vacuum and I use 4 gallons of water. At first I though it was hho in my bubbler "tremendous bubbles" until I read up on the subject. A great part of it might be hho nobody knows, and a lot of people will say there is no more hho than at atmosphere. But only the person who is able to direct it into the top of the carburator and do an mpg test will be the first to know.

[ridelong]

shovel52,

I don't know what water you are using, but I only use distilled water.

The result of the distillation process is H2O, and nothing else.

Using potassium hydroxide, which stays in suspension and does not evaporate, hydrogen, oxygen and water vapor are the only things entering my intake manifold.

[shovel52]

Distilling water does remove a number of things such as metals, viruses, bacteria, chlorene, etc. but it contains a huge number of trapped gasses that is air it'self. I did not mean that this gas is harmful , it is simply air. Distilling does not remove air. Yes you are running pure water in your generator, no contaminates. When you apply vacuum you have no pressure to hold air in and you get air "gasses" out as bubbles. As soon as the degassing stops, the bubbles should dissappear. the next step would be as you said, water vapor if any heat is applied. I am running lots of water and as a result I get a lot of unwanted bubbles "that don't stop" along with my hho. Sorry if I mislead you.