What kind of cell is the right one for me?

[zilex]

Hello everybody out there,
I've been conducting info about this hho subject for some time now and I'm really impressed with mpg increases you ppl get.
My question is what kind of cell and design do you guys reccomend for my 1.6 8v, single oxygen sensor engine?
As I can see about 1.5 lpm would be the right one for me,right?

[lhazleton]

1.5LPM is too much for your engine. For a 1.6 liter motor, you'll only need to produce 800 milliliters per minute. You basically want the reactor to produce half of the engine displacement.

[zilex]

Ah, so...
there are many different opinions on web, that's why I joined this comunity to get some staight answers ;)

[lhazleton]

zilex,
You'll be able to get all the help you need, but you must post information about your vehicle first. There are tons of different applications, and we can't even start to help until we know what we're dealing with.

[zilex]

Ok, my vehicle is Opel Astra f 1.6 gasoline engine, 4 cyl, 8 valves, monopoint injection, one oxygen sensor with one wire coming out of it, no maf sensor.
this is the car http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Astra#Astra_F.2FA
this is my engine bay

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/4931/dsc00935e.th.jpg (http://img835.imageshack.us/i/dsc00935e.jpg/)
As you say 0.8 lpm should be enough for this engine, I was looking at this dry cell design http://www.hho2u.com/HHO_DRY_CELL.html it looks rather simple to construct. They say it puts out around 1lpm, only difference is that I was thinking of making my gaskets out of inner car tyre.
Am I pointing in the right direction here??
tnx

[lhazleton]

You're going in the right direction, but the unit on that website uses 4 neutral plates per stack. Not a good idea, as they run hot & produce steam because they run 2.76 vdc per cell (kinda high). 5 neutrals will run 2.3 volts, and 6 neutrals will run at 1.97 volts (this is the best setup in my opinion).

If you're planning on building your own reactor, I would try this setup first: (-NNNNN+). You can always expand.........

[zilex]

Ok, first thing tomorrow I'll go and browse stores in my area for materials. Thanks for your advice, I'll be posting my results...
Regards from Croatia...

[astrocady]

Lee is right about the 1/2 your engine displacement rule of thumb, but depending on your vehicles emission control devices (or lack of them) some engines respond to higher levels of HHO. My car seems to.

Therefore, I recommend building a system that will produce 1 lpm of HHO for every liter of engine displace (1.6 lpm in your case, but when you install in on your car, reduce the current so it only produces 1/2 lpm HHO for every liter of engine displacement (.8 lpm in your case) Run at this setting for a few tank fulls of gasoline to give the HHO time to clean our your engine and for the MPG to stabilize. Once you have a stabilized MPG baseline, start increasing your HHO production a bit at a time to see where your engine actually performs best.

Steve

[zilex]

OK, thanks guys, today I went shopping and all I had to pay for were bolts and nuts. A friend of mine is working in the factory where they use ss, acrylic-plexyglass.. basically all I needed and they are like 2 miles from my home (lucky me).
But as there is always a BUT somewhere in a nice story, mine is that they only have 0.5 mm ss plates, now should I use them normally or should i couple 2 plates up to form one thicker plate??

[lhazleton]

The .5mm should be fine. I use .022", which is almost as thin.
Just be sure that the plates never are able to contact each other.
You're extremely lucky, being able to get your supplies so easily!

[knovos]

Very nice posting because I have exactly the same car and motor. I have already build in a 1 liter-system. The results are not good so far. Without dry-cell the motor takes 1 liter gasoline per 14.6 kilometers. The short first test that I did gave 1 liter gasoline per 10 kilometers. My question is, do I need an EFI or something for this single point injection motor with 1 lambda sensor (1 lead) going out of the motor to the catalyst. Is it possible the sensor 'says' your mixture is to lean because of the high amount of oxygen in the HHO mixture. Is it possible the fuel injection drops to many gasoline? I noticed more power from the engine but for more gasoline it is a waist of time.

[zilex]

knovos, exactly as you said "sensor 'says' your mixture is to lean because of the high amount of oxygen in the HHO mixture", some people have good results even without EFIE. what kind of cell are you using, where do you inject your hho and how accurate is that 1LPM you say you are getting, maybe you have a "steam machine".... Would appreciate some pics of your system to see how you installed it..:)

[knovos]

I have checkt the amount of hho and it is for sure 1 liter and highly explosive. The temperature is at the start 20 degrees Celsius and get never hotter than 60 degrees Celsius. I wil post some pictures this evening so you can see what I have done. I have used two dry-cells to get 1 liter. I am busy to make 1 bigger one for heating in my house but that will take a while.

[zilex]

looking forward to see your setup, it's great to have someone with the same car dealing with this project so we can work together

[knovos]

Here some pics from my crappy experimental hho design in my Opel Astra 1.6i 1992. You probably expect a full design under the hood, but that is not handy for the learning process and to make modifications. When everything is working fine, I'm gonna build it all under the hood. I can simply take this block out and work on it on the bench.

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/hechafzkgpxfndlp.jpg

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/hechggzcqhmxsbse.jpg
All problems are solved during the building of all this. I had some leaking of the tubes, some heating on the wires. I used thicker wires and used glue for the leaking problems.

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/hechhhzqtjnhomep.jpg

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/hecifdzqpcfgsnax.jpg

because of limitations next posting more pictures ----->

[knovos]

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/hechiezdklojmpai.jpg

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/heciaczasfjiaogx.jpg

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/heciagzilofbsldh.jpg

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/hecibiznpqbllkhe.jpg
The white stroke is the hose length and direction in the air intake

Next post more pictures ------->

[knovos]

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/hecicdzjopbbkkhp.jpg

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/hecicezxhtrpioir.jpg

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/heciedzslkdomhgh.jpg

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/hecieizajfeifith.jpg

next posting more pictures -------->

[knovos]

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/hecidxzhtidnaejp.jpg
I make my plates out of old stainless steel diner plates. I buy this plates for 30 to 80 euro cents a piece at recycling shops over here. I don't know what the quality is but I have a small magnet with me to check if it is stainless steel.

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/hecidhzltmlgknmd.jpg
As you can see I have a lot of work to do for my next 21 plate design, for a heating unit for one of the rooms in my house.

Today again bad results from this unit 1 liter gasoline per 12.2 kilometers (EFI needed!!)

Thanx koya1893, we know now for sure we need an EFI. I don't want to buy one ride away. I'm looking for a clear schematic, buy the parts at the local 'walmart' and do some soldering.

Kind regards Leon.

[zilex]

Tnx for your detailed reply...
Where did you get those hose barbs?
So no increase in mpg without EFIE, darn....
2 koya1893, do you think that this EFIE would be the right one for us http://goo.gl/5Pgx or do you reccomend some other??

[knovos]

It was not that simple to order those barbs online with reasonable shipping cost. Finally I found a company nearby called 'wildkamp' where I can pick them up by myself http://www.wildkamp.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/Jarola-Wildkamp_DE-Site/de_DE/-/EUR/ViewApplication-DisplayCachedWelcomePage They are in The Netherlands and in Germany so I think that is no option for you in kroatia. I drilled holes and tapped 3/8 screw thread and also used glue.

I'm also considering if it is possible to make a drycell which separates the oxygen from the hydrogen. I understand you don't need a EFI with such a design.

[zilex]

I just went through some topics on fuel-saver forum and I came across with the thread where you asked the exact same question I have http://goo.gl/3bqi and I guess it would then be best to get that quad digital EFIE as he stated since I don't see that they offer single digital version yet :confused::cool:

[knovos]

I just ordered this EFI http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/store/analog-efie-models/efie-circuit-boards/single-efie-circuit-board Seems like the most simplest version on the market. I could pay with PayPal and the shipping costs are not that high. When I see the instructions it must not be that hard to install it in my astra. No overkill in functionality just what i want.

[zilex]

I don't know but I guess you haven't noticed that I've sent you a pm :D
Great, looking forward to seeing your results with EFIE onboard, please keep us informed :D

[Amazing1]

You're going in the right direction, but the unit on that website uses 4 neutral plates per stack. Not a good idea, as they run hot & produce steam because they run 2.76 vdc per cell (kinda high). 5 neutrals will run 2.3 volts, and 6 neutrals will run at 1.97 volts (this is the best setup in my opinion).

If you're planning on building your own reactor, I would try this setup first: (-NNNNN+). You can always expand.........


MY QUESTION: In building the -NNNN+ plate setup, do you allow each of the Negative plates to ground to one another, or specifically keep them floating, or separate. And if this is a good starting point, does anyone think that a +NN-NN+ or a -NN+NN- configuration would produce more good gas, all other things being equal.

Please chime in...

[rcflyn]

MY QUESTION: In building the -NNNN+ plate setup, do you allow each of the Negative plates to ground to one another, or specifically keep them floating, or separate. And if this is a good starting point, does anyone think that a +NN-NN+ or a -NN+NN- configuration would produce more good gas, all other things being equal.

Please chime in...

In YOUR Example, I'm only Seeing ONE "-" Plate. so how would you ground them together or seperately? there's only ONE "-" plate???... however, if you're talking about making MORE than one stack, then Yes, ground the "-" together...
And, don't bother with 2 "N" Plates... you're wasting Voltage, creating Heat, and getting nowhere... Keep it to 5 "N"s. if not more... the More "N" plates, the less voltage per gap, the less heat, the more efficient, the better off you'll be... I run 6 "N" plates... Some have been experimenting with 7 "N", and even 8 "N"... Do some more reading in here, you'll discover the benifits and drawbacks of "N" plates, too many or not enough...

[knovos]

I received my EFI and installed it in my car like the this

http://www.sumopaint.com/files/images800/hgeiixzifnoiirpe.jpg

I have really no idea what kind of voltage I must set so I will start with 0.28 volt for the output of the EFI and give it a try. I will be back with results.

Opel Astra 1.6i
build 1992
HHO dry cell output 1 lpm
1 wire sensor
output setting EFI 0.28 volt
reading with a standard multimeter between the green and the white wire from the EFI

Leon.

[knovos]

Finally some results after all does weeks of building and testing.
Mileage without hho unit 1 liter 14.3 kilometers
With HHO unit Output EFI 0.28volt 1liter gasoline 17.5 kilometers (47.05MPG)
With HHO unit Output EFI 0.42volt 1liter gasoline 22.1 kilometers (52.27MPG) +35.2%
With HHO unit Output EFI 0.51volt 1liter gasoline 17.5 kilometers (47.05MPG)

Cranking up the voltage output from the EFI will bounce on a limit what I understand out of these numbers. I go back to the 0.42 setting and put a little more to find the max. See what coming out this week when I do my normal 'go to work' trips.

Leon

[zilex]

wow, great to hear that man, finally some results..
Please keep us informed as you progress with your testings..

[Randohr]

I'm running parallel plates; as many as I can fit into a 3" pvc pipe. I mount the tubes horizontally so that the bubbles do not "back up" on the plates and cause etching and heat. My spacing is wider than what I read posted here. I add KOH until the conductivity is minimum, then add some more so I don't have to mess with it for a while. I divide the voltage before the cell so that the voltage applied to the cells is approx. 3-4vdc. Current is generally around 15-20 amps depending on the build. Since it is a series circuit, and current is what produces HHO, the max current is applied to all components by design. I have no over-heating issues or thermal runaway. Actually, I have a lack-o-heat issue. Using an inline rotometer style flow gage(biased for HHO per the supplier), my LPM is approx. .8. My engine tuning/mods are simple: Efie's on all O2 sensors, Diode in series with MAP sensor supply voltage (drop .7 v), toggle switch controlled air and water sensor bias resistors. Toggle eliminated cold starts. I am saving money on gas. Mission accomplished.

[myoldyourgold]

I mount the tubes horizontally so that the bubbles do not "back up" on the plates and cause etching and heat.

Where do you place your gas exit on the 3 inch tube? (center, end, more than one, ??) How long are your plates and tube? Do you know what pressure you are running your system at? Last but not least can you post a picture of your setup? You might want to lower the voltage a tad(2v) so your plates will last longer and you will not be polluting the electrolyte with CR VI. Keep up the good work and it sounds like it is paying you back.

[knovos]

Update 11-okt-2010
I have played with the EFI for a couple of weeks now with my HHO cell. I did many adjustments, had some good results but mostly not good enough or really bad. The large amount of variables make it all not stable enough for me, thats why I'm working on a separation cell which cut out the oxygen. Adding only hydrogen to the air intake makes the lambda sensor"say", "hey, the mixture is to rich lets pump lesser gasoline". The electrical signal from the lambda will be different to the computer or regulator. An EFI is not necessary so adjustment of a cell like this needs to be done by a PWM to control the amount of amps or doing some adjusting by making the electrolyte stronger or weaker. I will post my new project in a new topic. My big HHO succes turns out to be not easy enough for me, but that will not say HHO cells are no good. There are tons of people over here who have good results. I'm going into the "hydrogen-only-world".

regards,

knovos.

[astrocady]

The extra oxygen that the o2 sensor reads with HHO being injected, in NOT from the oxygen being produced by the reactor! That tiny amount of oxygen in insignificant compared to the oxygen being brought in through the air intake.

The increase in the O2 reading is because the burn is no much cleaner because of thehydrogen burn, there are fewer contaminates -- therefore more room for atmospheric oxygen in the exhaust stream. This is exactly what the O2 sensor would see if the fuel air mixture was too lean -- less unburnt fuel making more room for the atmospheric oxygen.

[knovos]

The extra oxygen that the o2 sensor reads with HHO being injected, in NOT from the oxygen being produced by the reactor! That tiny amount of oxygen in insignificant compared to the oxygen being brought in through the air intake.

The increase in the O2 reading is because the burn is no much cleaner because of thehydrogen burn, there are fewer contaminates -- therefore more room for atmospheric oxygen in the exhaust stream. This is exactly what the O2 sensor would see if the fuel air mixture was too lean -- less unburnt fuel making more room for the atmospheric oxygen.

I did not know all that, and you are a master so it must be correct. I have done EFI settings from 0.10 to 0.80 and many steps in between, with a gas output 0.8 to 1 lpm for my 1.6 opel astra 1992 with 1 sensor. The results are bouncing up and down and make no sense. I never had the same results with even settings. Thats why I'm a little sick of all the EFI tuning and try something different. I'm looking at myhydrogencar and vipond50 on youtube.

[zilex]

But what happened to
With HHO unit Output EFI 0.42volt 1liter gasoline 22.1 kilometers (52.27MPG) +35.2%
You couldn't get that increase in a long term or you tried to pull out more?
35% seams more than enough for me?!?

[knovos]

try something old. since you only have one O2, see if installing an extender will yield you some result. also, try to see if you can increase your production to match you engine size. You should be able to produce a 1lpm with 15 amps.

I don't know what an extender is. I have a gas production of 1 lpm at 20 amps.
But never mind I'm focusing on hydrogen only.

[knovos]

But what happened to
With HHO unit Output EFI 0.42volt 1liter gasoline 22.1 kilometers (52.27MPG) +35.2%
You couldn't get that increase in a long term or you tried to pull out more?
35% seams more than enough for me?!?
Ya sure it should be simple to set the EFI to 0.42 but I did not get de 52.27MPG anymore. But BTW where's your setup what did you build in your car?

[zilex]

I'm currently stuck in a moment with my project due to my bussines, my cell at a stage where it just needs to be installed, wire installation in the car is all done...