Confused as to what is happening with my setup

[dg2010]

I have a standard cell layout (-5n+5n-). The inlet is on one side bottom and the outlet top on the opposite side. Both are 3/8". The inlet and outlet go to a resevoir bubbler (bottom entry), then through a second similar tank to act as a scrubber, then on to a final standard bubbler.

The bottom of the first tank is about 10" above the cell. The cell is in front of the radiator and the first tank at the back of the engine bay, so there is a run of 2 to 3 feet. There is a non between the tanks. Thought it might be causing back pressure but is the same when I take the cap off the first one.

When I first switch on the cell pushes out the electrolyte and fills the reservoir. After performing well for about 20 seconds the production falls and I notice that there are small bubbles coming up the inlet hose.

What I think is happening is that the cell is producing more than it can push out of the outlet and so is also pushing out the other way.

I am thinking that if I increase the number of holes through the top of the plates it would help, or maybe even add a second outlet on the other side of the cell, though finding room for this will be problem.

I would welcome any thoughts on thiss and whether any others have had a similar problem.

Thanks

[lhazleton]

David,
Sounds like the gas is backing up for sure. It would be a good idea to mount exhaust hoses on the front and back of the reactor.
What size hose are you running? You may want to increase it's size.

[dg2010]

David,
Sounds like the gas is backing up for sure. It would be a good idea to mount exhaust hoses on the front and back of the reactor.
What size hose are you running? You may want to increase it's size.

Thanks for the reply.

I am running 3/8" id hose on both.

I am thinking that maybe having just one 3/8 hole through the top plates is not enough.

[lhazleton]

It's possible, but many people only have one hole (even smaller) with no problems. I have 3 holes at the top of all my plates and a gas line at the front and rear of the reactor. If it's feasible, I'd try just adding another gas port before drilling more holes in the plates. Besides being a pain in the a$$, why waste precious surface area?

[dg2010]

It's possible, but many people only have one hole (even smaller) with no problems. I have 3 holes at the top of all my plates and a gas line at the front and rear of the reactor. If it's feasible, I'd try just adding another gas port before drilling more holes in the plates. Besides being a pain in the a$$, why waste precious surface area?

Thanks

I suppose that it is mostly gas at the top so you are not actually wasting a productive area.

I think I might try the extra holes first as I don't really have much room to fit another on the back.

[BioFarmer93]

Hey David,
I've read your description four times now, trying to visualize it as best I can.. I have to agree with LHazleton, you need another gas exit on the opposite side. I know you said that there is not much room, so maybe a little shifting of location or a new slightly longer or different bracket might be necessary. I promise you that drilling more holes in your plates will gain you nothing in relation to the particular problem you are having. Photos are VERY helpful, in that others may see possibilities that didn't occur to you and so are able to suggest solutions you may not have thought of. I realize that any rearrangement of components (even slightly) at this stage of the game is a royal PITA, and looked upon with dread, but if that turns out to be the solution, then....

[dg2010]

Hey David,
I've read your description four times now, trying to visualize it as best I can.. I have to agree with LHazleton, you need another gas exit on the opposite side. I know you said that there is not much room, so maybe a little shifting of location or a new slightly longer or different bracket might be necessary. I promise you that drilling more holes in your plates will gain you nothing in relation to the particular problem you are having. Photos are VERY helpful, in that others may see possibilities that didn't occur to you and so are able to suggest solutions you may not have thought of. I realize that any rearrangement of components (even slightly) at this stage of the game is a royal PITA, and looked upon with dread, but if that turns out to be the solution, then....

Thanks

Unfortunately I don't think photos would help - it is bad enough for me to see it freely.

Just to give you some idea, it is sitting on top of the oil cooler, in front of the auto trans oil cooler, and that is along side the fan for the air con, so I just have the space between that and the grille. It is a struggle even to get it mounted there. It is possible that I could move the auto cooler back a bit but that means taking a lot of stuff out even to see if it is feasible. I do agree with you though that that might be the best option.

Just occurred to me that mounting another one on the front might work it I put more holes in the neutrals. I use square gaskets so that won't be a problem.

When we bench tested it, it ran fine though there was something like a 2ft or more head, the relevance of which did not occur to me.

Appreciate the input

[lhazleton]

That's the worst thing about building these; 20/20 hindsight. :rolleyes:

[dg2010]

That's the worst thing about building these; 20/20 hindsight. :rolleyes:

I've got plenty to spare if you want some :)

[lhazleton]

LOL........Thanks David, but I've got 53 years of it as it is....:D

[astrocady]

You might try putting a check valve in your feed line, forcing the gases to exit the other way.

I once hooked up a lot of small cell in parallel by using manafolds made of 1/2 PVC on top and bottom of the cells. I had trouble with cirulation until I added check valves on each cell's input line.

[dg2010]

You might try putting a check valve in your feed line, forcing the gases to exit the other way.

I once hooked up a lot of small cell in parallel by using manafolds made of 1/2 PVC on top and bottom of the cells. I had trouble with cirulation until I added check valves on each cell's input line.

Thanks but have already tried that.

Thinking about it afterwards I realised that it is building up pressure at the back of the cell and putting in a valve is doing nothing to alleviate the problem. Bit like taking an aspirin for a headache when the real cure is to stop hitting your head with a brick :).

I think I have to make it easier for the gas to escape, then hopefully my production will come up.

[dg2010]

I have been examining my layout and found that the top of the cell is about level with the bottom of the reservoir. Thinking that this is my problem I found some space above the sump guard and have managed to lower it by about 7", but unfortunately this has not made any improvement in the output.

I have noticed that when it starts, the level of the reservoir increases - almost doubles the volume, not that it is that big. So I would assume that the cell is only about half full. Is this what happens with other cells?

At the moment the cell is in front of the radiator and the reservoir close to the firewall. So 2 to 3 feet back. Wondering if I should try to mount the reservoir directly over the cell, or should there be some restriction in the outlet to keep more electrolyte in the cell.

As you can see I am totally confused over this and would appreciate some words of wisdom.

[lhazleton]

I've always kept my reservoir about 6" above the reactor. The cells are always flooded up to the gas ports. The electrolyte goes up the gas lines and re-enters the reservoir.

[dg2010]

I've always kept my reservoir about 6" above the reactor. The cells are always flooded up to the gas ports. The electrolyte goes up the gas lines and re-enters the reservoir.

Thanks for confirming that. Is your reservoir directly above or displaced horizontally from it?

[lhazleton]

David,
It's directly above.

[dg2010]

David,
It's directly above.

Thanks. Just can't find a way to do it on mine. If I did squeeze on in it would block the cooling to the oil cooler for the auto box and I daren't risk that.

[myoldyourgold]

It is not unusual for the reservoir to increase in volume when you start up the reactor. The opposite happens when you turn it off. There are two reasons for this. The first is the outlet hose when running, is not full, nor is the reactor, but when the reactor is not running if fills up to the level of the reservoir flooding the reactor and the pipe (s). The second is the pressure in the reactor above the level of the electrolyte in the reactor compared to the pressure below the electrolyte level. Input pressure versus output pressure. The size of the holes in your plates and the height of your reservoir are the determining factors. The right balance here is necessary. To much pressure on the outlet side does not allow the cell to fill up and in some cases the gas will push to much of the electrolyte out the input side. This reduces the active area and gives poor performance. The problem is critical to the proper operation of the reactor. The right size and placement of holes, reservoir height and volume, or a pump are the keys.