Controversies about Ortho and Para H

[fuelcatalyst]

My first post was about a controversy about chrome +6 (that I didn't realize was such a big deal when I posted), was a sales issue between cell manufacturers using non stainless electrodes and those using stainless.

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=6315

I determined that the issue for a user of HHO was small if care is taken to dispose of used electrolyte.

It is not small (as a sales issue) for some manufactures.

My reseach has turned up a few other matters that I wanted to post about.

I hope some experienced and knowledgeable experimenters/builders will comment.

[fuelcatalyst]

Some of the same manufacturers of HHO generators make claims about the "quality" of the HHO gas.

I have learned that dry cells with stainless 316L seem to function the best, and if properly designed use a fairly weak KOH solution and stay under 140 degrees F regardless of how long they run. They don't seem to need a PWM and produce decent amounts HHO gas if the design is efficient.

The manufactures who don't have very effiecient generators seem to claim a higher quality of gas, (not refering to steam content). They claim they have much more orthohydogen vs parahydrogen from their HHO generators. They claim that they prove this with a louder explosion from generated HHO gas.

Since I have been unable to find evidence of the HHO gas being analyzed via mass spectrometry this appears to be sales hype garbage.

At room temps ortho H is 75% and para H is 25 % and you must get down to -423 F to get nearly all para H.

The non stainless guys say the ferric oxide/ chrome oxide/ nickel traces catalyze the ortho to para fall in energy. That seems hard to believe as well.

[fuelcatalyst]

Some make claims about monatomic H and O instead of diatomic H and O. That also seems unlikely that very much monatomic gas exists either.

George Wisemen claims there is a elevated form of water vapor/gas in the mix as well which seems unlikely.

Has HHO ever been analyzed so the exact breakdowns are known?

[astrocady]

These are very good questions and I await comments from our resident experts.

To throw another component into the mix, I have heard some manufacturers claim their PWMs make better gas that others. And other claim the quality of gas decreases if you drive the cell to hard.

I have only recently started doing some "pop" tests, and I'm not really sure how relivant they are, at least to MPG gains. To keep things as "scientific" as I can, I got a small liquor bottle (like the kind they sell on airlines). It is small enough to be safe, I can hold the neck of the bottle in a pair of vice grips so my hand doesn't muffle the sound, and it small enough to fill quickly so i know it is always full.

I have noticed a difference in sharpness of the retort between a couple of systems, but have not been able yet to determine why. It's an ongoing test that I don't know will go anywhere.

[Roland Jacques]

This is something that interest me also, but i dont have much to add.

I do wonder if it would a "good test" just to measure the heat output from burning the different HHO gases side by side?

Maybe compare 1 LPM (or 100 watts input) from a nickle Plate cell vs a SS plate cell. Or any other configuration you what to compare.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/278523/hydrogen/80845/Ortho-hydrogen-and-para-hydrogen

[plasma]

I read that "Ortho-Hydrogen is much more explosive than Para-Hydrogen" (http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1164793) so I would presume it is more desireable.

[Roland Jacques]

I read that "Ortho-Hydrogen is much more explosive than Para-Hydrogen" (http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1164793) so I would presume it is more desireable.

Great link,
This part was very interesting to me. but im not sure what MHD stands for?

"What makes Hydrogen so special in MHD is the fact that it possesses two distinctive forms; Para-Hydrogen and Ortho-Hydrogen. This occurs when the electron is (spinning or twisting) in the opposite direction as the nucleus is called Para. When the electron is spinning in the same direction as the nucleus is called Ortho. Can you guess how we change from one state to another? You got it, a magnetic field. The research conducted by Ruskin found that the conversion of Hydrogen from Para to Ortho was done by magnetic means."

[Roland Jacques]

fuelcatalyst
Do you have a link to the guys claiming higher quality HHO?

[Drafty-01]

Sounds like smoke & mirrors to me - but following this thread as it sounds kind of interesting.

[Philldpapill]

Drafty - I was just about to post the exact same thing - Smoke and Mirrors.

Para vs. Ortho is the same thing on the macro scale. The only concern anyone should have about it is if you are interested in the quantum effects of it. For our purposes, I'm 99.9999999% sure it means nothing. When you're talking about simple combustion reactions, Hydrogen is Hydrogen is Hydrogen is Hydrogen... Anyone who says otherwise more than likely has a $$$ stake in it one way or another.

[lhazleton]

Some of the same manufacturers of HHO generators make claims about the "quality" of the HHO gas.

This sounds a lot like what Smacktard was saying when he decided to dump his SS reactors and started selling the Titanium ones.

[fuelcatalyst]

fuelcatalyst
Do you have a link to the guys claiming higher quality HHO?

I was a verbal claim. I will look at their web sites and see if they expressed it there as well.

The web sites don't make the claim they made verbally.

Found a claim online, (not the same person, [as far as I know] who made the claim verbally).

http://discoverhydrogen.com/blog/2010/01/titanium-plate-hho-generators-designs.html

"Chromium ions in the HHO gas of Stainless Steel act to accelerate the decay of orthohydrogen to parahydrogen. Orthohydrogen is 4x more reactive than parahydrogen. Titanium cells make no chromium ions or other ions. That is why the HHO gas from a Titanium Cell is more reactive."

Sounds like HORSE POOP to me, (only one functional brain cell)

Here is more potential horse poop: (I wouldn't call it horse poop if it were proven rather then just stated)

http://www.drive60mpg.com/titaniumhho.html

"The gas produced with stainless

steel plates contains chromium

ions in it's gas. That's why this

usual powerful orthohydrogen gas

is less powerful and converted to

the less powerful parahydrogen.

Orthohydrogen is 2-4 times

powerful than parahydrogen.

When used Titaniumplates

(no MMO) there is no chromium

ions or any other ions what would

cause a power loss."


It also looks like B3 (Bob Boyce Boosters), claim to make orthohydrogen with stainless plates, (I didn't see where they bad mouthed other generators as the titanium fellers seem to do to generators using stainless). BTW: their claims may not be horse poop as the breakdown at room temps or higher is 75% Ortho 25% Para.

[fuelcatalyst]

This subject is covered in depth in another forum:

http://www.waterfuelforall.com/forum/index.php?topic=592.0

Hope this doesn't break any rules here.

Bottom line calculations from scientific papers favor 75% Ortho and 25% Para primarily due to the equlibrium based upon temps, then Bob Boyce shows up and makes an unsupported statement about how plates that have chromium oxide CrO3 produce Para H2 at room temps and above and claims "non disclosure" agreements prohibit him from providing a source or documentation proving the disclosure.

Hmmmmm..................

[Roland Jacques]

It seems to me that there are definite differences in explosion sounds between SS and nickle cells.

What does that mean, I'm not sure. One could have more Ortho or O2...

The main reason HHO works for MPG gains is speeding up the flame front. If ortho is faster burning then it seems reasonable that it would be preferred and possibly have better results In a ICE. JMO

[fuelcatalyst]

It seems to me that there are definite differences in explosion sounds between SS and nickle cells.

What does that mean, I'm not sure. One could have more Ortho or O2...

The main reason HHO works for MPG gains is speeding up the flame front. If ortho is faster burning then it seems reasonable that it would be preferred and possibly have better results In a ICE. JMO

There could be a lot of potential reasons for such an observation. BTW that is the main "finding", (different "sounding" explosions), that people who claim a difference in the "quality of HHO gas" actual claims rest. (With the exception of Bob Boyce who refuses to state his basis).

One of the people who made the verbal claim went to the trouble of recording the decibles of the resulting explosions, (another verbal claim).

Potential reasons for the difference

#1 different volumes of gas due to different production rates of the hydrogen generator. (Is the container actually full of the very light H2 gas that dissipates upward very fast)???

#2 if same volume of gas is exploded different amounts of water vapor within said gas???

#3 potential differences in ortho para H2 or far more significant monatomic vs diatomic H???

What is the controls on said experiments to test the sound? Is the gas weighed? How many times duplicated from start up? Temp and pressure of tests???

It seems to me after reading the entire thread on the other forum that temperature is likely the primary consideration for the presence of para and ortho H2.

None of the scientific papers were an exact test of para vs ortha H2 in HHO produced by low voltage electrolysis with various electrodes and electrolytes. That said: the calculations of the stainless camp seemed reasonable until Bob Boyce came along and made a diffinitive unsupported statement, (and Boyce's B3 cell uses segragated cells with stainless electrodes and is claimed to make the high ortho content H2).

BTW Chrome and Nickel (combined with other substances), both are catalysts for para H2 from ortho H2 (at very low temps) and nickel seemed the better of the two from the science papers I read.

The controversey looks like it will remain a controversy.

I hope a titanium plate person (or people) steps up and tries to prove their case, (if they can). :rolleyes:

[astrocady]

Drafty - I was just about to post the exact same thing - Smoke and Mirrors.

Para vs. Ortho is the same thing on the macro scale. The only concern anyone should have about it is if you are interested in the quantum effects of it. For our purposes, I'm 99.9999999% sure it means nothing. When you're talking about simple combustion reactions, Hydrogen is Hydrogen is Hydrogen is Hydrogen... Anyone who says otherwise more than likely has a $$$ stake in it one way or another.

This has always been my stance, too, Phil. But I've been hearing so much about quality of gas, and from people whom I respect, that I'm doing my own testing, albeit rather slowly with no results one way or the other at this time.

[BioFarmer93]

Hey Phil-
I found this, and believe me when I say that I have no financial stake in it-;)

A utility patent was awarded to Simon Ruskin, 3228 868, which relates the means by which hydrogen rocket fuel can be converted from para-hydrogen to ortho-hydrogen through the application of a magnetic field. Note that under U.S.C. 35 section 101, any utility patent must be proven scientifically operable and correct before issuance. Design patents are not subject to the above PTO ruling.

It should be noted that magnets are the prime source of control of the position of electrons. For example, a magnetic coil controls the sweep of our television's electron gun. We frequently use the term electromagnetism because we can't separate the effects one field has on the other. Therefore, it shouldn't be too surprising that chemical reactions which are determined by an element's valence (the surplus or deficiency in the outer orbital shells of the electrons) are affected by a magnetic field.

[Nadasive]

So its been about 3 years.

Has anyone figured it out?

Astrocady, have you had any success with the experiments yet?

I am very interested to hear from you guys.

[Michaeljohn]

hearing so much about quality of gas, and from people whom I respect, that I'm doing my own testing, albeit rather slowly with no results one way or the other at this time.



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