Hexavalent Chromium

[fuelcatalyst]

Hi folks.

I'm new here and I'm trying to learn from all of you.

This site is a great resource for people like me, (newbies), who are learning about the potential benifits and aspects of Brown's gas.

Please forgive my foolish question, but I live in a very Liberal mind everybody's business left coast city up the road from Hinkley, CA, (Seattle).

Erin Brockovich made aqueous solutions of this form of chrome famous. It seems a far greater risk to humans if an inhalable dust in plating operations is present that workers breathe, (to an uninformed idiot: as me). That said: the huge 1996 or some such award against P G & E and Hollywierd made this particular form of chrome an issue for the used electrolyte I will soon begin to produce.

In my (early stage) research it seems that electrodes made of Stainless Steel 316L and an electrolyte of KOH (Potassium Hydroxide) are components of the (so far) most effective and efficient 12 volt generators of HHO gas to catalyze combustion in transportation equipment.

I have no doubt that this old technology HHO catalyst can produce measurable gains in efficiency and has a great deal of merit, and one day could become a significant way for all of us to import less oil and save money.

That all said, (and I hope you folks don't choose to debate the above premis(s) of this question), WHAT DOES EVERYONE DO WITH THEIR USED ELECTROLYTE?????

Here in Seattle it is problematic that the "house hold" hazmat clerk will allow a person, (who gives the full and truthful disclosure), to dump the stuff into the county/city's hazmat facility. If a person accumulates a 55 gallon plastic drum it can be hauled off by private hazmat companies for $400 to $500 per 55 gal barrel.

Any solutions found by the rest of you, (until better electrodes then stainless 316L are found)?

Thanks in advance for your replys.

[fuelcatalyst]

Sorry to post to my own thread but I wanted a one stop location for helpful info.

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=6028&highlight=hexavalent+Chromium

[fuelcatalyst]

Post #6

This is the video that caused my concern.

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=5893&highlight=hexavalent+Chromium

[fuelcatalyst]

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/duncan/17578/


Sorry for the posting to my own thread. I wanted to collect helpful stuff about this touchie subject.

[fuelcatalyst]

http://www.hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=2611&postcount=19

http://www.nmfrc.org/bluebook/sec622.htm


Another consideration.

http://www.finishing.com/122/15.shtml

[abe58]

Good work,you don't play around do you.I thank it safe to say working with SS is not worth the chance you take.I like to get better gas millage but I don't want cancer.I think working with titanium is a lot safer.I would like to see post of other people who are working with it.It has different characteristic but I like the way the water stays clear.
Keep up the good work Abe

[H2OPWR]

Good work,you don't play around do you.I thank it safe to say working with SS is not worth the chance you take.I like to get better gas millage but I don't want cancer.I think working with titanium is a lot safer.I would like to see post of other people who are working with it.It has different characteristic but I like the way the water stays clear.
Keep up the good work Abe

Forget Titanium. It sucks. Yes it is very resistant to corrosion but it is a very ineffecient metal. If you want to get away from Stainless then buy Nickel 200 It will outperform stainless and WAY outperform Titanium. It just is somewhat more expensive.

Larry

[abe58]

yea, I could just lay a few nickles on the tracks and how they work. Ha HA Ha Just kidding

[abe58]

OK here is what I have found out so far. titanium does not make a good + plate (anode) unless it is coated first.But does make a good - plate (cathode).Crome 6 comes from the -plates not the + plates.So I'm working on a cell with titanium - plates and SS + plates.Still working on spaceing.Not haveing coated titanium for + plates save money.Haven't work with nickel yet.(Cost to much) Abe

[fuelcatalyst]

Good work,you don't play around do you.

Dunno that I did any work. Just read what the experimenters posted here and learned from their work as is the objective of this forum as I understand it.


I thank it safe to say working with SS is not worth the chance you take.I like to get better gas millage but I don't want cancer.

If the risks are acknowledged by those generating the waste and controlled disposal happens I don't see much risk of cancer. If the +6 Chrome was in powder form it would be a real dangerous issue, in liquid not such a risk if producers of used electrolyte solution are careful as small amounts of liquid can be properly disposed of.

KOH is not such nice stuff either. Wouldn't want it on my corn flakes.

The unspecified stainless plates* with caustic non KOH electrolyte, (NaOH and NaHCO3*) don't seem to get above .4 -.6 (.5 mg per Liter*), (*the video showing the test doesn't identify the particular stainless plates used and the electrolyte is not KOH). Lower grade stainless maybe more of an issue as 316L, (L means low carbon, doesn't rust as much as lower grades of stainless).

I will need to test this myself once I have some well used KOH electrolyte from 316L, (16-18% Chromium content), and KOH. Unless someone else can do it and post reliable results.

I have noticed in searching the web that most youtube videos regarding Chrome+6 regarding HHO generators have been removed, (either by the author or by youtube). The titamium plate guys seem to want to hype the issue to futher their sales I assume.

Proper disposal of the small amounts of liquid involved should not create issues, IMHO.

Sugar to change the Chrome from +6 to +3 needs to be investigated, (as I intend to), as that would greatly lessen the issue as 93-94% of .5ppm becomes a very small amount of +6 Chrome indeed.


I think working with titanium is a lot safer.I would like to see post of other people who are working with it.It has different characteristic but I like the way the water stays clear.
Keep up the good work Abe

The KOH solution stays "clear" with the 316L as well.

[fuelcatalyst]

Info on Chrome +6.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/hexchrom/

http://www.epa.gov/safewater/contaminants/basicinformation/chromium.html#four

http://www.clu-in.org/contaminantfocus/default.focus/sec/chromium_VI/cat/Policy_and_Guidance/

http://www.epa.gov/nrmrl/pubs/625r00005/625r00005.pdf

That will make yer head spin. Each body of water has different standards.

http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/methods/method/files/1636.pdf

[abe58]

OK: If your water is clear you haven't run it long. The water will turn yellow that is the Crome 6 comeing from the plate.
To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Good Luck.

[fuelcatalyst]

Test kit.

http://www.hach.com/hc/search.product.details.invoker/PackagingCode=1252700/NewLinkLabel=Chromium+Test+Kit,+Color+Cube,+0.2-1.0+mg&frasl%3BL,+50+tests

[fuelcatalyst]

Helpful thread.

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=2235&highlight=fructose

[abe58]

Their is an old saying, "You can drag a horse to water but you can't make him drink" My last warning is, I have had a friend with the EPA test my Electrolyte after running for two months.He advised me if I had poured that water on the ground and it leaked into the water table I could have poisoned every neighbor that drank from that water.That good enough for me.

[fuelcatalyst]

ENVR 100
Cr(VI) reduction using fructose, glucose and sucrose
Program Selection: Division of Environmental Chemistry
Topic Selection: Remediation Technologies for Chromium
Lead Presenter's Email: bbilyeu@xula.edu

Bryan Bilyeu1, Patricia Balderas-Hernández2, Gabriela Roa-Morales2, and Carlos Barrera-DÃ*az2. (1) Department of Physics and Engineering, Xavier University of Louisiana, 1 Drexel Drive, New Orleans, LA 70125, bbilyeu@xula.edu, (2) Facultdad de QuÃ*mica (Chemistry), Universidad Autónoma del Estado de México

Abstract

Plating, mining and leather industries produce large amounts of chromium wastes. However, Cr(III) is a thousand times less toxic than Cr(VI) so there is interest in new economical ways to reduce Cr(VI). Cr(VI) can be chemically reduced at low pH. However, a large excess of acid is required to achieve the Cr(VI) reduction to meet environmental standards. Another disadvantage is the large amount of sludge generated, which requires expensive (up to 50% of operational cost) disposal. In this study, fructose, sucrose and glucose at different concentrations (3.84, 28.57 or 50 mg mL-1) were evaluated as reducing agents with a 5 mg L-1 Cr(VI) solution at pH 2.2 and temperatures 20, 35 and 70 °C. Optimum conditions for Cr(VI) reduction were 70 °C with a sugar concentration of 28.57 mg mL-1. Figure 1 shows that fructose was most effective at 94.28% removal, followed by sucrose at 93% and glucose only 32%.




Researcher Provided Non-Technical Summary

Briefly explain in lay language what you have done, why it is significant and what are its implications (particularly to the general public)
Chromium compounds are used in industrial metal plating and leather tanning, but are very toxic carcinogens. They exist in two principle forms: hexavalent [Cr(VI)] and trivalent [Cr(III)], with the trivalent being a thousand times less toxic than the hexavalent. Although state, federal and international agencies strictly regulate chromium levels in industrial wastewater, it still gets into aquatic environments. Treating large environmental systems like lakes and rivers without causing more damage to the ecosystem is a challenge. We have found some natural sugars, like fructose from honey and sucrose from sugar cane can convert highly toxic hexavalent chromium into the less toxic trivalent form.

How new is this work and how does it differ from that of others who may be doing similar research?
Converting hexavalent chromium to the less toxic trivalent form has been done with strong acids and other aggressive treatments, but our method is quite different in that it is quite environmentally friendly and can be done in an active ecosystem with little disruption.

Bryan Bilyeu
Department of Physics and Engineering
Xavier University of Louisiana
1 Drexel Drive
New Orleans, LA 70125

http://acswebcontent.acs.org/communications/chicago07/sustainability.html

(third article from the bottom, chart wouldn't copy and paste)

[fuelcatalyst]

Looks like optimum reduction occurs @ 70 degrees C (158 F)

pH of 2.2!!!!


Question if KOH has a pH North of 12 what is the best way to get a solution of KOH to 2.2. Some sort of acid, would the acid create a Cr(VI) laden salt? Which acid would work the best to get to a pH of 2.2 with the least negative effect?

Question: What is 28.57 mg mL-1 is that 28.57 milligarms per milliliter or Liter what?

Sorry I'm sooooo dense.

BTW Abe I get it: Cr(VI) is not good for a person's corn flakes that is why I'm doing this homework. :eek:

[Philldpapill]

OK: If your water is clear you haven't run it long. The water will turn yellow that is the Crome 6 comeing from the plate.
To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Good Luck.

Excuse me? I thought it was iron oxide................

Besides, Cr(VI) is typically a redish/purple color. I don't think the "yellow" in the water is from Cr(VI). If it were, that's an insane amount of it.

Yellow water is NOT an indication of Cr(VI) in your water... It happens with straight iron plates, too. It's harmless. This whole Chromium stuff is just more alarmism. Yes, Cr(VI) is dangerous in sufficient quantities. However, there is NO evidence whatsoever that it's even produced in low voltage electrolysis. The energy levels just aren't high enough to produce it. Nonsense!

[Philldpapill]

OK here is what I have found out so far. titanium does not make a good + plate (anode) unless it is coated first.But does make a good - plate (cathode).Crome 6 comes from the -plates not the + plates.So I'm working on a cell with titanium - plates and SS + plates.Still working on spaceing.Not haveing coated titanium for + plates save money.Haven't work with nickel yet.(Cost to much) Abe


Cr(VI) doesn't come from either plate! PERIOD!

However, to back up why you say that... WHY does it form at the negative plate? What chemical reactions are you citing??? Because the ion is positively charged? I don't mean to be such a butthole, but I don't like seeing people making claims without citing where they got that info from. That's how a LOT of misinformation and rumors start.

[fuelcatalyst]

"The acid and base react during neutralization, forming water and a salt. If the acid and base are both very strong (such as concentrated hydrochloric acid or sodium hydroxide), a violent reaction will occur. That’s why most neutralizers are very weak: to slow the reaction. Even with neutralization products, heat and gas will often evolve. Take proper precautions as recommended by the neutralizer’s manufacturer."


http://www.labmanager.com/stips.asp?ID=56

Likely not gonna be easy to get a pH of 2.2 without a whole lotta dilution ta tame the reaction.

Wonder if fructose works in pH of 12? :confused:

[fuelcatalyst]

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Uk/uk.rec.models.engineering/2007-12/msg00058.html

BTW: This is not from a cell for HHO production, (so the recomendation not to use a stainless anode is for a different process where other suitable anode material may be available). I put this here to confirm that the SS anode does appear to produce Cr+6.

"I spoke to my chemist friends and they say they would not use
stainless as an anode - in industry hexavalent chromium is called "chrome 6".....

......I rather doubt much of the small amount of Cr in the anode would even form Cr(VI) compounds; Mark reports a greenish colour, which is typical of Cr(III) salts in solution (and, incidentally, also characteristic of Fe salts, and Fe is present here in much higher amounts) whereas Cr(VI) salts are yellow or orange/red. Cr(III) salts are not especially dangerous - and are even essential to support life (RDA is I think 25ug/day).

Even if there were small amounts of Cr(VI) in the solution, it is unlikely to get into the hobbyist unless he drinks it, or boils it and breathes the vapour - and the studies show that it is mainly breathing it into the lungs which is dangerous.''


Preliminary conclusions from these unverified snippets from the internet: Cr(VI) is produced by the stainless anode, (which makes sense). Cr(VI) salts are in fact yellow or orange/red. Risk is low unless Cr(VI) laden electrolyte boils in an unveltilated area.

[IM2L844]

fuelcatalyst, you seem to have allowed an obsessive/compulsive disorder to attach itself to this topic.

[fuelcatalyst]

I Think I now have learned enough to draw some preliminary conclusions.

#1 316L Stainless seems the best material, (most cost effective as pure nickel would likely be better), for cell plates at this point in HHO generator development.

#2 Some Cr+6 is generated by the SS anode, (very little from 316L, [likely more Cr+6 from lower grades of SS]).

#3 KOH seems like the best electrolyte, (at this point in the state of current development) for HHO production; solution has a very high pH (likely over 12), which cannnot be neutralized safely without significant dilution or a significant and dangerous acid - base reaction leading to much more, (VOLUME OF LIQUID), hazardous liquid to dispose of due to the needed dilution of the KOH prior to neutralization.

#4 Cr+6 is a "telltale" yellow or orange/red, 316L plates (if properly prepared and if proper limits on amperage and corresponding internal cell heat levels are observed), do not deteriorate rapidly or cause significant Cr+6 laden sludge or high levels of Cr+6 in the electrolyte.

#5 The test kit for Cr+6 is very inexpensive!!!!!!!!!!!!! So there is no excuse to ignore the "elephant standing in the living room"!!!!!!

#6 Small quanties of KOH, (or other electrolyte solutions can be properly disposed of), at haz mat sites!!!! PLEASE DO THIS!

#6 Some industrial states with groundwater contamination of Cr+6, (like New Jersey for one), are considering much lower future threasholds for Cr+6 contamination.

[fuelcatalyst]

fuelcatalyst, you seem to have allowed an obsessive/compulsive disorder to attach itself to this topic.


You maybe right.

Sorry I put you folks through this, but I felt the need to check it out, since I'm going to use this fuel saving technology myself, (and my life's experinece is the devil is always in the details: especially if one ignores them).

Hopefully some new to HHO generation to catalyze IC engines, (as I am), will gain helpfull insights that the rest of you Big Guns already likely knew, and I had to find out in my own anal way.

Ignore is not a good plan, (IMHO), since this issue is not likely to go away with the HUGE growth of Gubment now obviously underway at all levels. :mad:

A good cell design that stays relatively cool and uses 316L is clearly not much of a problem if gloves are worn when handling the electrolyte, and proper disposal proceedures are followed.

Again sorry I publically tackled a touchie subject. I could have done this privately and kept my findings private.

I chose not to, and have no regrets as I think there is value in knowledge.

[Philldpapill]

No, no, no... You're right to post this. This thread is a fairly concise resource for the topic. Some threads drag on and on for over 80 pages, and nothing useful is ever pulled out of the poster. I'm not going to name names, but usually these kinds of threads originate from the caribbean...

There is a pretty good amount of info in this thread, so if someone is concerned with Cr(VI), they can read this, and make a decision of their own.

Good work!

[fuelcatalyst]

No, no, no... You're right to post this. This thread is a fairly concise resource for the topic. Some threads drag on and on for over 80 pages, and nothing useful is ever pulled out of the poster. I'm not going to name names, but usually these kinds of threads originate from the caribbean...

There is a pretty good amount of info in this thread, so if someone is concerned with Cr(VI), they can read this, and make a decision of their own.

Good work!

Thank you, that is exactly what I intended.

[IM2L844]

Nevermind me. I was just joking around, but I know, because my wife constantly reminds me, I'm not nearly as funny as I think I am.

All joking aside, I really think you've provided a lot of good and useful information.

[fuelcatalyst]

Nevermind me. I was just joking around, but I know, because my wife constantly reminds me, I'm not nearly as funny as I think I am.

All joking aside, I really think you've provided a lot of good and useful information.

Thanks.

I have confirmed my initial instincts with this preliminary research (that I will continue) and now need to carefully produce some used KOH electrolyte after some run time with 316L plates in a commercial dry cell I will purchase and test myself.

That is the only way to know for sure at this stage of HHO generator development due to the interests in this controversy that stack up on both sides and restrict the impartial information I have searched for.

I hope someone who already has some used KOH electrolyte from 316L plates could purchase the inexpensive test kit and do some testing and post their results. That said: I would encourage them to take steps to islotate their disclosure from their screen name (or real name) they now use as they will likely be attacked by the polarized interests in this matter, (as I have clearly observed in my preliminary research).

This issue is a big one due to the "perfect storm" toxic mixture of ingredients: ever present and growing environmentalist pressure and their endless desire to control all of us; Hollywierd exposure; and capitalist competition. What a nasty combination!!!! :eek::eek:

Like politics in this politically charged world we now live in, the available public domain information is both skewed and unreliable. ;)

Non controversial (preliminary) facts I have significant confidence in: 316L stainless does have 16-18% Chromium content, and eloctrolysis most likely produces some Chrome+6, (as electrons are clearly taken from the stainless anode with some sacrifice of material into the KOH solution to form some of this particular state of Chrome), that is clearly dangerous to ground water.

HHO end users, (as I intend to be), are exposed much less then those who build the HHO generators with stainless plates and test the limits of their generators.

Airborn Chrome+6 is by far the most dangerous form as it is taken into the lungs, and the stainless plates need to be prepared to become plates in a HHO cell. I hope all of you take great care to keep airborne particles from the stainless at a minimum in your personal environment.

If all end users are careful not to over heat the electrolyte, and dispose of it very carefully so it doesn't enter the water table this dosen't seem to be a huge issue due to the small amounts of liquid and small amounts of Cr(VI) in the solution.

[astrocady]

Thanks.

I hope someone who already has some used KOH electrolyte from 316L plates could purchase the inexpensive test kit and do some testing and post their results.

I thought I read in a post on this forum, some time ago, that those inexpensive test didn't work with a KOH solution. That to get valid results with our electrolyte you had to send it off to a laboratory, which is not inexpensive.

[fuelcatalyst]

I thought I read in a post on this forum, some time ago, that those inexpensive test didn't work with a KOH solution. That to get valid results with our electrolyte you had to send it off to a laboratory, which is not inexpensive.

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=2235&highlight=fructose

#18 02-02-2009, 04:20 PM
Shnerdly
Guest Posts: n/a



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Q-Hack!
There are small test kits you can buy for $21 that test for Cr(VI) http://www.hach.com/hc/search.produc...%3BL,+50+tests These are well within the realm of affordability for the average garage experimenter. While it wont test the gases coming out of the tail pipe, you could easily collect the water dripping from it to test.

I called the company in the above link and spoke to one of their "Technical People" named Kevin. He assured me that this kit will test specifically for CR+6. He said it will NOT detect other kinds of Chromium, only hexavalent.

I placed the order and should receive it in a couple of days.

The cost was 21.09 + 9.95 shipping and 1.42 tax. It does 50 tests. Thats only $0.65 per test. Definitely affordable.

I'll post again when the kit gets here.





Shnerdly is no longer a member here, so he didn't return to post results.

If you wish to test your electrolyte, you could call and confirm what the above post says about the test (prior to purchase) which seems prudent.

If the above post is accurate; the test, (less then $35.00 with shipping), can test 50 different times so it works out to less then $1.00 per test.

If you use KOH with a 316L anode, (I see that you do use this when I looked at your signature), you should not have very much chrome+6 in solution (unless you have overstressed the plates with a lot of amps), but you will likely have some trace amounts due to the anode putting some of the 16% to 18% Cr into the KOH solution, (with 6 too few electrons).

I'm not sure what reaction, (gas), you would get from sugar into a high pH electrolyte, (so use a very VERY small amount of the solution with caustic chemical resistent gloves, protective eyeware and clothing and plenty of ventalation and a breathing mask/filter if you chose to experiment with sugar reduction).

The paper I found from the Chicago conference in March 2007 talks about fructose from honey, (but that may have been to create a touchie feely paper for the environmentalists). Fructose from corn syrup should be a similar molecular structure. Sucrose from cane sugar was almost as effective.

I hope ya decide to follow through. Good luck!

It will take some time for me to preform this same test as I don't own the system you have (yet).

Ignoring this elephant will eventualy be a big problem.

Hach Company info:

http://www.hach.com/hc/static.template/templateName=HcContactUs.HcContactUs.htm/SESSIONID%7CBE1qY3lNekEwTXpJeU1EWTNKbWQxWlhOMFZGcF JXUT09QkVReA==%7C

Hach Company
P.O. Box 389
Loveland, Colorado
80539-0389
Phone: 800-227-4224
Fax: 970-669-2932

Product/Sales Support
For general information, customer assistance with product or ordering questions, or technical support, call 800-227-4224.

TO ORDER TEST KIT:

http://www.hach.com/hc/search.product.details.invoker/PackagingCode=1252700/NewLinkLabel=Chromium+Test+Kit,+Color+Cube,+0.2-1.0+mg&frasl%3BL,+50+tests

[fuelcatalyst]

Found a thread on another forum tonight that ads significant information to this puzzle.

It would seem the home test kit for Cr+6 mentioned in this thread, (youtube video), is not effective for a seriously alkaline electrolyte solution.

The test mentioned was from break in periods on brand new HHO generators where the chrome was concentrated.

http://nicksrealm.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=69

"Hi Guys and (Gals?)
I received the results on Friday from the testing agency.

They conducted two tests using the standard for testing CRVI BRL SOP-00106 EPA 7199
One sample was from my wet-cell running a low concentration of NaOH and about 10 amps.
The second sample was from my dry-cell at a higher concentration of NaOH and about 30 amps.

The results came back positive for both sample

The Dry-cell has 41 milligrams per litre (41000 Ug/ltr) of CRVI
The Wet-cell has 7 milligrams per litre (7000 Ug/ltr) of CRVI
So I have to assume from the numbers, the higher the chemical concentration and the higher the current, the more CRVI there is present.

This has been a real kick in the nuts for me. I have had a hard time coming to grips with the results.
But the facts are the fact, regardless of what We wanted the outcome to be.
their equipment and procedures are far more sophisticated then what Rao and I used.

Here is the results document:
http://nicksrealm.com/Photos/albums/use ... 1_R006.pdf

Oh well

Glen"

"That works out to 410 parts per million and 70 parts per million."

linc in post doesn't work

[astrocady]

This is pretty much accepted. The nagging question is -- after the cell is fully conditioned, and conditioned properly, what are the levels of hex-crome in the electrolyte that the end user will be exposed to?

[fuelcatalyst]

This is pretty much accepted. The nagging question is -- after the cell is fully conditioned, and conditioned properly, what are the levels of hex-crome in the electrolyte that the end user will be exposed to?

Agreed.

I was under the impression the inexpensive Cr+6 test may give some insight into that question.

It seems the high PH causes issues with the test. :(