Looks Like Maybe This Weekend

[BioFarmer93]

OK, If I can get the backyard and garden finished on Saturday, then This bad boy goes in Sunday... Here are the numbers and pictures so far-

21 plate 14"x5" = 2940sq.in. electrolyzer (x4) = 11,760sq.in. wet plate area.

2.2kW available with electronics to vary A & V.

.1887 W/psi = .755 W/per 4 sq.in.

No neutrals- each electrolyzer is wired in parallel and connected to the next one in series to achieve a nominal voltage of 3.4V per unit.

Control and supply cables, Hydroxy hose to intake are all in place. Extra alternator wired in and connected. Positive side fused at 70A, control box finished, 45% KOH ready to be mixed 2:1 with 5gals. distilled water to obtain a 30% electrolyte solution.
I am goin to try and dial it in over the next two or three weeks, break the plates in in observe temps at different power settings. I'll keep updating this thread as things happen. Hope to have a couple electrical engineers do a 200 mile ride along video showing very clearly and with exposed translucent diesel fuel containers and continuity in video that the thing works like we all know it does. I plan to do a before and after with very accurate measuring of fuel used and as accurate as possible measurement of gas made.
Here are some photos...

[BioFarmer93]

@ Koya- I think your 1999 7.3 is a Turbo'd Powerstroke isn't it? But built before Ford went with the split shot injection routine right? You don't have to deal with any electronics on that year model do you? Just curious, because mine is so old that the most complicated thing on it is the cold start/high idle sensor! I have not yet done an accurate mileage measurement on it, but it seems to get any where between 14-17mpg, depending on my mood:D

I am shooting for at the very least, 8lpm. I anticipate more, though.
The system is going to be mounted in the bed of the truck, because it is too big to go anywhere else.

[IM2L844]

That's an impressive looking setup. It, obviously, took a lot of planning, time and patience to put it together.

I don't quite understand what you mean by this:


No neutrals- each electrolyzer is wired in parallel and connected to the next one in series to achieve a nominal voltage of 3.4V per unit.Each electrolyzer is wired in parallel to the power source and in series with each other at the same time?

Sorry, I'm unable to visualize how this is wired. Maybe a diagram would help.

[BioFarmer93]

IM2L844- here's your diagram...

Koya- Very cool, man. It sounds like we are working on very similar rigs. I have been tossing around the idea of using water/alcohol injection also. Send in some photos so I can see what you are doing!

[IM2L844]

Thank you very much. Very nice diagram! That made it absolutely clear.

[H2OPWR]

OK, If I can get the backyard and garden finished on Saturday, then This bad boy goes in Sunday... Here are the numbers and pictures so far-

21 plate 14"x5" = 2940sq.in. electrolyzer (x4) = 11,760sq.in. wet plate area.

2.2kW available with electronics to vary A & V.

.1887 W/psi = .755 W/per 4 sq.in.

No neutrals- each electrolyzer is wired in parallel and connected to the next one in series to achieve a nominal voltage of 3.4V per unit.

Control and supply cables, Hydroxy hose to intake are all in place. Extra alternator wired in and connected. Positive side fused at 70A, control box finished, 45% KOH ready to be mixed 2:1 with 5gals. distilled water to obtain a 30% electrolyte solution.
I am goin to try and dial it in over the next two or three weeks, break the plates in in observe temps at different power settings. I'll keep updating this thread as things happen. Hope to have a couple electrical engineers do a 200 mile ride along video showing very clearly and with exposed translucent diesel fuel containers and continuity in video that the thing works like we all know it does. I plan to do a before and after with very accurate measuring of fuel used and as accurate as possible measurement of gas made.
Here are some photos...

That os one IMPRESSIVE DEVICE. Outstanding work. What are the tanks you are using.

Larry

[BioFarmer93]

:oLate start, Easter, company, Blah, blah, blah... I know, y'all don't want to hear it but I did get the units set in place and the control box installed. Like I said, I'll keep this thread updated on any progress I make with it.

@ Larry- Not tanks, just painted 2" sch.40 PVC & caps

Photos from this evening--

[H2OPWR]

:oLate start, Easter, company, Blah, blah, blah... I know, y'all don't want to hear it but I did get the units set in place and the control box installed. Like I said, I'll keep this thread updated on any progress I make with it.

@ Larry- Not tanks, just painted 2" sch.40 PVC & caps

Photos from this evening--

My only concern is that your voltage per gap will be too high. With 13.8 volts devided by 4 devices that is over 3 volts per gap. I bet it would make alot of gas.

Larry

[BeaverRat]

My only concern is that your voltage per gap will be too high. With 13.8 volts devided by 4 devices that is over 3 volts per gap. I bet it would make alot of gas.

Larry

Yeah, you gotta make two more to get you at 2.3 volts, otherwise you will get lots and lots of steam.

[BioFarmer93]

Yeah, supposedly with the electronics I have, I can actually dial it down below 12v, but that remains to be seen, along with how much gas it will make.. With .1887 W/psi, or .755 W/per 4 sq.in., I don't know that I have the current density that's probably necessary to make much in the way of steam on this rig, but at the moment it's still speculation. However, please let me say this about steam. I have an iron engine. I don't mean that International builds super engines, I mean that there is no aluminum in it. Anywhere. It will happily ingest any KOH tainted steam (should there actually be any) that makes it past my scrubbing bubblers, and say "thanks pal, you just upped my compression ratio a couple of points."

[IM2L844]

With 68 amps as an example (just because you are limited by your 70 amp fuse), each cell will see ~ 3.4 amps and it looks to me like the total system will produce slightly more than 3 LPM. I hope your AMP/Volt control box works as planned because I think it might to want to draw significantly more amps than that with 3.4 volts per gap.

[BioFarmer93]

IM2L844- Bigger fuses can, and most likely will be purchased. I'm sure the system will be undergoing modifications along the the way, as that is half of the fun! Initially though, I will be working from the standpoint of "easy does it" and constant evaluation...

[Philldpapill]

Sweet marry mother of ***. That is an enormous cell. I'm slightly aroused...

[H2OPWR]

With 68 amps as an example (just because you are limited by your 70 amp fuse), each cell will see ~ 3.4 amps and it looks to me like the total system will produce slightly more than 3 LPM. I hope your AMP/Volt control box works as planned because I think it might to want to draw significantly more amps than that with 3.4 volts per gap.

I do not wat to be argumentative but only the voltage will be split. All cells will use all 68 amps. Amps will never be split only voltage.

Larry

[BioFarmer93]

I do not wat to be argumentative but only the voltage will be split. All cells will use all 68 amps. Amps will never be split only voltage.

Larry

X2:D correct-amundo, Mr.C.... Volts kept dialed down to 3.0 to 3.6 per gap, amperage variable across all four units from about 50 to 150+ (not enough more to say anything beyond what the manuf'r lists). This was the idea from the very earliest conception. As far as "there should be 5 units to split the voltage to 2.76", I'm gonna say, "Yeah, I know, why don't you give me about $350 extra to play with and I'll toss one together so we can ALL be happy... I'm not even allowed to tell friends how much all this costs, just in case it doesn't work... But I think the folks on this board in particular probably ballpark it pretty close.. Yeah.

[IM2L844]

I do not wat to be argumentative but only the voltage will be split. All cells will use all 68 amps. Amps will never be split only voltage.

LarryNor do I, but I think I should clarify. For all practical purposes an ampere represents an amp-second or one coulomb which is equal to a particular defined number of individual electrons (6.24 X 10^18) passing a specific given point in one second. The bottom line is each of those individual electrons can't be in twenty places at the same time.

In circuits with resistors in series the voltage is divided. In circuits with resistors in parallel the amps are divided even when it is a sub-circuit contained within a cuircuit with resistors in series.

[BioFarmer93]

"In circuits with resistors in series the voltage is divided. In circuits with resistors in parallel the amps are divided even when it is a sub-circuit contained within a cuircuit with resistors in series."
...Damn, son. You're smarter than a show dog, ain't ya? So to put this in perspective, you're saying that with 150A available to these four units, that each unit can only receive 37.5A because its plates are in parallel? Hmmmm, well OK then.. So does that mean I wasted my money on a meter that reads up to 150A when I could have got by with a 50A meter? Or, does the combined draw from four electrolyzers in series appear as 150A to the circuit? I ask because I have always thought of each e'lyzer as a single resistor, not a sub-set of parallel resistors wired in series.

[IM2L844]

No, what I'm saying is that if you have 150 amps entering the system, each electrolyzer will see the entire 150 amps as a whole, but the 150 amps will be divided between the 20 cells. Each cell will see 7.5 (150/20) of those 150 amps. Then, they will recombine on their way to the next electrolyzer where they will be re-divided between the cells of the next unit and so on through the system.

If you measure the amps between each unit, you should read the entire 150 amps, but if you measure the amps passing from the positve plate to the negative plate of an individual cell you should read 1/20th of your total amps.

That's just the way it works. I'm not trying to be negative. I'm just trying to be helpful. I believe Phil, the resident electronics engineer, will corroborate what I'm saying if he looks at your diagram.

[BioFarmer93]

Shields down Mr. Worf, I don't believe an attack is emminent... I wasn't doing anything but supplying information, asking questions and watching you and H20PWR spar. I'm one of those strange people that actually like to learn new things and your description of how the current is handled from plate to plate was enlightening, almost sounds like a capacitative function. From a "money already spent" standpoint that's good... Means that I can use that expensive ammeter after all.

As I re-read my post I see that the show dog comment could be taken negatively. Hope it wasn't- where I come from it's a sarcastic form of compliment. It's a southern thang.

[IM2L844]

It's cool. I'm a southern man, myself, and recognized the back handed compliment for what it was right away. I have to say, though, that I'm not trying to spar with H2OPWR. Your approach is unconventional and it took me a few moments of looking at your diagram to realize exactly how it worked electrically.

H2OPWR is a smart guy and I'm sure he will see it too, once he's had a chance to think about it a little longer. It's reasonably common to refer to parallel circuits as a current dividers exactly because of their ability divide the total current into fractional parts.

[Philldpapill]

Yeah, IM2L844 is right about the current divider. The best analogy for this sort of thing is to picture the circuit like a bunch of PVC pipe. Something like this:



IN
|
______|______
| | | |
| | | |
| | | |
|___|___|____|
|
|
OUT


You can see that as the water enters the IN port, it gets split up into 4 seperate paths, and then recombines when it leaves the OUT port. There's a "law" called Kirchoffs Current law, that basically states that the current into a "node", or better an "electrical connection", is equal to the current leaving the node. It's alot like water... If you have a single piece of pipe, then obviously the water entering the pipe is equal to the water leaving the pipe. Just like in the diagram, the water entering the IN port is equal to the water leaving the OUT port. Same thing with current, but it's electrons instead of water molecules.

The same applies to your cell. If you have multiple cells in parallel, then they all "see" the same voltage across them, so they just suck current as if they were the only one exposed to the voltage, however, the TOTAL current through the system is the sum of the currents through EACH cell.

When they are wired in series, then the total current is the current through EACH cell, as it is the same througout.

EDIT: Forum software sucks. The diagram looks fine until I hit post.

[BioFarmer93]

IM2L844- OK, good, glad no toes were stepped on. Phil-There was enough left there for me to see what you meant with the water analogy, thanks, both of you. I honestly have a better understanding of it now.:)

[H2OPWR]

YES, I am bad. I did not look closely at the diagram. The individual devices are wired in parallel and then the devices are wired in series. I should have looked more closer before posting. I was referring to a standard series device.

Larry

[IM2L844]

Whew...I'm glad that all worked out.

When can we expect some initial test results?

[BioFarmer93]

Yes, I am grateful myself..

As for the numbers, it's hard to say... I tend to work on it in bursts, and have too much other stuff going to devote big chunks of time to it. I've had a miserable head cold the past 3 days, but feeling a little better this afternoon so I should be able to at least hook up the control cables, but I don't feel up to wrestling with the mains. Since proper function is my priority, production numbers will get here eventually. I haven't even made a measuring device yet... maybe I can do that this evening too..

[BioFarmer93]

Weekly progress report- system is installed and connected electrically, my daughter (worlds best helper, ever) and I got the wires in the control cable all identified/verified/connected. After she left I trimmed and connected the mains. The dogs (no ****) used two of my PVC threaded plugs that go in the tops of two of the bubbler's for chew toys, so I was unable to fill this evening, but will tomorrow after work.

Hey Phil- would you take a look at the attached schematic and tell me if I can jumper from the Ammeter to the Volt meter like that? Seems like it should be a parallel connection, but looks like it could be series also... It's just a cheap Sunpro Volt meter, but I'd rather not fry it if I don't have to... Thanks

[Philldpapill]

What voltage are you trying to measure? First, it looks like you have a wire across the shunt terminals... That's not right. You should have a wire connecting to one terminal, then the "exit" wire connecting to the other terminal. This way, electrons are forced into the shunt, then exit and go into your cell. To get a current reading, measure the voltage at those terminals.

[BioFarmer93]

Nah, the shunt is wired properly according to installation instructions by the manuf. I may have graphically misrepresented it some how, but functionaly it is correct. My question concerns tapping the ammeter for my voltage reading- is this a viable method and will it give a legiti-- never mind-- I just realized something, I have to tap that at the pos & neg connections at opposite ends of the electroloyzer-- Sorry, had a brain fart, I'll try not to let it happen again...

[BioFarmer93]

OK, granted... I did over-simplify the graphic of the shunt on the schematic. The attached photo shows what it actually looks like. I went out last night after work to wire in the volt meter and got side tracked when I took the dash panel off. I had not yet properly mounted my new driving lights switch and vacuum gauge, so I routed the wires for the H-system's volt meter and made the connections at the e-lyzer. Under truck on back, zip ties, dirty grease, loose crap falling in face... You know. Anyway, got it to the point of incorporating that circuit into the wire loom in the cab and ran out of steam at about ten thirty. Last connection and electrolyte fill this evening, possibly even some preliminary production numbers. Keeping fingers crossed.

[BioFarmer93]

Well, I have gas, Brown's gas that is, Texas's terror, clear gold... Anyway, not a lot of production due to using only distilled water, no KOH. I'm glad I decided to do it that way because I have at least half a dozen leaks, all hose to fitting, not e-lyzer. System only pulled 12A @ maybe 18-20V. Blew out my voltmeter, apparently I need one with a higher range, or I need to unhook it until I start using KOH.