Gasket width?

[BeaverRat]

What is a good width of gasket on the cell? is 1/4th inch a good amount to keep the cell from leaking of is 1/2 inch better? Obviously the bigger the gasket, the less reactive surface area you have...

Thanks

[cabrera]

What is a good width of gasket on the cell? is 1/4th inch a good amount to keep the cell from leaking of is 1/2 inch better? Obviously the bigger the gasket, the less reactive surface area you have...

Thanks

I use 1/16 EDPM rubber with absolutely zero leaks

[lhazleton]

Andy, I think he means the width of the gasket.
It all depends on the type of material you're using. On my 6x9, I'm using 1/16th" EDPM cut about 3/4". On my 6x6, I use 1/8" Buna-N rings & these are only 1/8th" wide and seal perfectly without applying much torque at all. The bolts are barely more than finger tight. The softer the compound, the easier to get a good seal.

[viper_1986_1986]

- 1/4" acrylic
- 8 bolts around the plates to hold it in place with 1" washers
- 4.25" x 5" plate size (4.5"x5" for power platea)
- 13 plates
- PVC liner for gaskets - hand cut to around .25"

Holds together JUST fine. I have an issue with power plates flexing due to the fact that my power plates are BIGGER and are not tabbed.....
As long as its an even pressure on all bolts the 1/4" gasket holds just fine.

In a week or so i plan on trying to cut smaller 1/8" gasket size and see how well that works. Its just a pain to handcut them all with box cutters :D

[phantasm48]

Hey HHO People,

I'm tossing around construction materials for my first dry cell design. I've been thinking of using good ole $3/tube RTV silicon. I would make a little rectangle holed die to attach to the end of the tube nozzle and extrude the silicon around the perimeter of each plate, laying down a bead with a 3x4mm cross section. I'd make the rectangular hole in the die about 3mm tall by 4mm wide, thus accounting for about a 1mm compression "give" leaving 2mm between plates and hopefully a good seal. I know silicon's an excellent sealer when compressed against a relatively smooth surface, is highly heat resistant, chemical resistant, and non-conductive. Anyone think this wouldn't work?

[H2OPWR]

Hey HHO People,

I'm tossing around construction materials for my first dry cell design. I've been thinking of using good ole $3/tube RTV silicon. I would make a little rectangle holed die to attach to the end of the tube nozzle and extrude the silicon around the perimeter of each plate, laying down a bead with a 3x4mm cross section. I'd make the rectangular hole in the die about 3mm tall by 4mm wide, thus accounting for about a 1mm compression "give" leaving 2mm between plates and hopefully a good seal. I know silicon's an excellent sealer when compressed against a relatively smooth surface, is highly heat resistant, chemical resistant, and non-conductive. Anyone think this wouldn't work?

Silicone will not hold up to KOH and electrolosis. I am sure that you will experiment but you will find that inside of these devices is a very harsh environment. I still have not found any silicone or glue or epoxy type substance that will hold up if exposed to the plate where electrolosis is taking place and most will not hold up anywhere else. Do yourself a huge favor and do not try any type of sealant as a gasket. Many thinks will work for gaskets. I have found Teflon the best but is cost prohibitive. Nitrile is second and only slightly more expensive than neoprene or PVC.

Larry

[IM2L844]

As far as chemical reistance to Sodium Hydroxide and Potassium Hydroxide goes, Silicone is your worst choice.

E.P.D.M. (http://www.rubbercal.com/epdm.html) has a better better chemical resistance to Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) than Nitrile (http://www.rubbercal.com/Nitrile.html) and a higher temperature rating. It has the same durometer rating as Nitrile (http://www.rubbercal.com/Nitrile.html) but is a little more pliable and would be your most cost effective option. That's just my humble opinion.

Here is a chemical resistance PDF chart:
http://www.rubbercal.com/files/Chemical_Resistant_Chart__Rubber_Cal_.pdf

[H2OPWR]

As far as chemical reistance to Sodium Hydroxide and Potassium Hydroxide goes, Silicone is your worst choice.

E.P.D.M. (http://www.rubbercal.com/epdm.html) has a better better chemical resistance to Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) than Nitrile (http://www.rubbercal.com/Nitrile.html) and a higher temperature rating. It has the same durometer rating as Nitrile (http://www.rubbercal.com/Nitrile.html) but is a little more pliable and would be your most cost effective option. That's just my humble opinion.

Here is a chemical resistance PDF chart:
http://www.rubbercal.com/files/Chemical_Resistant_Chart__Rubber_Cal_.pdf

With EPDM some of it is colored with carbon black. I did find that at least the stuff I bought conducted electricity just a little. I agree it is the best choice for chemical resistance but care must be taken in making sure it will not conduct any electricity. The stuff I had would also turn the water black. Again caused by the carbon content. At our local rubber outlet I could not find any EPDM that was totally electrically resistant. I know there is some because many folks use it with no problem but I do know that some of it will not work. I am unsure how to tell the difference.

Larry

[IM2L844]

At least we agree that Silicone is a poor choice;), but I would like to point something out.

The condutivity of any of these gasket materials is so miniscule that there is no way that 12 to 26 volts of potential is anywhere close to enough to allow a current to overcome their inherent resistance, but even if it were, in order for it to act as a conduit for current leakage the resistance of the gasket material would need to be less than or at least equal to that of the electrolyte between the plates. Otherwise, there is zero chance that any current would follow a path through the gaskets instead of through the electrolyte. It's just not gonna happen.

[BeaverRat]

Just take an ohmeter to it. One with two plates separated by a dry gasket, and another test between two plates of a cell that is full of electrolyte.

[IM2L844]

The testing has already been done at Akron Rubber Development Laboratory, BeaverRat.

I've just finish reading a technical paper where they tested various carbon blacks that are added to EPDM and the worst performer, by leaps and bounds, was N550. Ohms were measured at 975,000 Ohms-cm, but as compared to the other carbon black materials, it was such a poor performer that they couldn't use the standard 500 VDC for testing and had to lower it to 7.55 VDC. At that potential they were able to read a current of 0.000199 amperes. Keep in mind that this is the pure substance before it is mixed in and diluted into the other EPDM materials.

I think it's resonably safe to conclude that after it is mixed in and diluted with the other EPDM materials that an electrical current would easily prefer the path through the electrolyte (with a resistance of 1 or less ohms) as compared to the path through even the lowest quality EPDM gaskets.

[H2OPWR]

The testing has already been done at Akron Rubber Development Laboratory, BeaverRat.

I've just finish reading a technical paper where they tested various carbon blacks that are added to EPDM and the worst performer, by leaps and bounds, was N550. Ohms were measured at 975,000 Ohms-cm, but as compared to the other carbon black materials, it was such a poor performer that they couldn't use the standard 500 VDC for testing and had to lower it to 7.55 VDC. At that potential they were able to read a current of 0.000199 amperes. Keep in mind that this is the pure substance before it is mixed in and diluted into the other EPDM materials.

I think it's resonably safe to conclude that after it is mixed in and diluted with the other EPDM materials that an electrical current would easily prefer the path through the electrolyte (with a resistance of 1 or less ohms) as compared to the path through even the lowest quality EPDM gaskets.


Take a look at this video at around the 1:30 mark. This is the only time I ever used EPDM. The water was very black and only had 2 hours run time on it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSXHQ0VdxUM

There was never antyhing used other than the EPDM that could have caused it. I do not remember the ohm reading when I tested these gaskets for conductivity. I did not test them until I tore it apart but they definately were conductive. In all the testing I have ever done the water never ever turned black. This was the only time I tried EPDM. I tried it because of the chemical resistance chart. I am sure it has worked for you and others but it spooked me away from it after this test.

Larry

[Drafty-01]

Hi Larry,
How big is that set-up? It looks like about 8" x 12". Do you use a circulation pump, or just let the bubbles drag the electrolyte through the system?

Cheers,
Martin.

[IM2L844]

Larry, in both that video and the one you uploaded just a few days before it you refer to the gaskets as being Nitrile gaskets.

It's all good. We research, we test, we share what we've found, and we test each other's findings. That's the right process and exactly the way it should work if we want to correctly advance our understanding.

[H2OPWR]

Larry, in both that video and the one you uploaded just a few days before it you refer to the gaskets as being Nitrile gaskets.

It's all good. We research, we test, we share what we've found, and we test each other's findings. That's the right process and exactly the way it should work if we want to correctly advance our understanding.

If I said Nitrile in that video I mispoke. They were EPDM. I chose it beause the design required a distance for the e-lite to travel over exposed gasket material and chemical resistance was supposed to be better with EPDM. I am positive that I used EPDM there. I first started with Neoprene, Then went to Nitrile, Then for that test used EPDM. For the cell I am building now I am using Nitrile because I can not let it get very hot. Teflon is what I have been using the past few months but due to cost it is overkill unless I am running extreme heat.

Larry

[H2OPWR]

Hi Larry,
How big is that set-up? It looks like about 8" x 12". Do you use a circulation pump, or just let the bubbles drag the electrolyte through the system?

Cheers,
Martin.

Those were 6X6 nano particle coated plates. The device looks larger due to the design of the shims. The e-lite was circulating naturally. I seldom use a pump for anything.

Larry

[H2OPWR]

Larry, in both that video and the one you uploaded just a few days before it you refer to the gaskets as being Nitrile gaskets.

It's all good. We research, we test, we share what we've found, and we test each other's findings. That's the right process and exactly the way it should work if we want to correctly advance our understanding.

It is also possible that I asked for EPDM and actually got something else. I checked the rest of the piece that I still have. It is not marked at all.

Larry

[Drafty-01]

Hi Larry,
Looked a lot bigger that's for sure. What is "Nano coated" exactly? I'm guessing that it's not some kind of carbon paint finish. I've heard of Nano carbon tubes being used and developed in super capacitors, not much else though. Is it worth the extra $$$ to get this done? I guess it depends on how picky you are, and how much $$$ you want to spend on getting it just right.

Cheers,
Martin.

[IM2L844]

It is also possible that I asked for EPDM and actually got something else. I checked the rest of the piece that I still have. It is not marked at all.

LarryIn any event it's good that you brought this everyone's attention. The more people we have checking into these sorts of things, testing different materials and sharing their results and experiences, the better. I know I'll be doing some more testing because of it.

I've been watching your videos and following your progress for a long time. I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for your approach and your contributions. Keep up the great work. It helps all of us.

[H2OPWR]

Hi Larry,
Looked a lot bigger that's for sure. What is "Nano coated" exactly? I'm guessing that it's not some kind of carbon paint finish. I've heard of Nano carbon tubes being used and developed in super capacitors, not much else though. Is it worth the extra $$$ to get this done? I guess it depends on how picky you are, and how much $$$ you want to spend on getting it just right.

Cheers,
Martin.

Nano particle coating is a nickel/iron nano particle mix that is applied to the cathode and the cathode side of the bipolar neutral plates. It increases surface area 1000 times over a standard plate.

It does definately improve effeciency and production. Current density can be much higher and overall effeciency improves. The drawback is the cost. It is a very expensive process to have done. It costs about $45.00 to have just one 6X6 plate coated. If Nickel 200 is coated it is even more effecient than Stainless but even more expensive because you have to buy the Nickel.

Bottom line is that unless someone can find a real use for this technology it really does not matter. No matter how effecient you get the cell there is still a net energy loss.

Unless someone can find out how to make these devices consistantly make fuel economy improvements on any ICE than it is still just a hobby.

I do beleive in this as a viable technology and really enjoy looking for improvements but it has not been proven to consistantly improve fuel economy to my satisfaction. Some folks make very high claims and others say they have found net losses. I ran mine for over a year and did get slight improvements but not enough to pay for the device alone. I had one installed on a 1998 Jeep and recorded very nice improvements but part of that probably was me driving in a manner to improve fuel economy to try and prove this to myself.

For now I build and I test and I search for things that will help improve cell effeciency. I just keep looking at what does not work and eliminate that and try and improve upon what does work. The problem is all the variables.

Larry

[H2OPWR]

In any event it's good that you brought this everyone's attention. The more people we have checking into these sorts of things, testing different materials and sharing their results and experiences, the better. I know I'll be doing some more testing because of it.

I've been watching your videos and following your progress for a long time. I have a great deal of respect and appreciation for your approach and your contributions. Keep up the great work. It helps all of us.

Thanks, You always seem willing to share and help. I am here to share but most of all I hope to learn. There are so many variables here and so much of what is build is just a different version of what is already out there. I am looking for new ways to improve this technology as I am sure most of us are.

Back to the lab with hopes that this new cell will make some improvements. It is just a few hours and some cuts and bruises away from being complete. It is like nothing I have ever seen anyone build and my small tests promise hope but I have been there many times before and came away dissipointed.

Larry

[HHO-2050]

"EPDM" RUBBER material is recomended in chemical resistance chart to use with KOH or NaOH. NEOPRENE rubber material is also recommended to use with NaOH but has less chemical resistance to KOH as compared to "EPDM" RUBBER material. EPDM has temprature range -40 F to 212 F while NEOPRENE has temprature range -20 F to 212 F. Both can be purchased at Grainger Industrial Supply in different sizes. 1/32" is good gasket thinkness in a HHO dry generator.

[myoldyourgold]

1/32 is just fine for very small reactors that do not produce a large volume of HHO. As the volume goes up you need more space for the bubbles or bad things begin to happen. It has been detailed a few times before so do some reading and you will get the details.