New Design Without Stainless Steel [Archive]

BoyntonStu

07-28-2008, 09:15 PM

Check out the video

No stainless, no electrolyte

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56-6_Vxn6nc&eurl=http://hydraficient.com/drupal/index.php?q=content/product-videos

http://www.hydraficient.com/drupal/

The guy misstates reality.

KOH is NOT an acid!

KOH is a base.

KOH Is used in your kitchen drain, never in a battery.

Be warned!

BoyntonStu

Stratous

07-28-2008, 09:17 PM

Many of us have seen these video's and frankly I find them to be borderline BS. If the builder wants me to believe he has some breakthrough technology, then he should be more forthcoming with information. Most of us here are not scientist, but we know enough to make judgments on our own.

stickittoopec

07-28-2008, 09:19 PM

They are talking about it here also.
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=625

justaguy

07-28-2008, 09:31 PM

Yeah, I think his website is trying to recruit distributors and dealers at an expensive up front fee more than anything.

Sorry, I didn't see the other post on this subject.

timetowinarace

07-29-2008, 12:23 PM

I can use tapwater also. But my water contains minerals and thus has a catalyst. I'd like to see what that cell does with distilled water. And so what if the electrodes are not stainless? I've made lots of bubbles with galvanized, aluminum, and others just playing around but we all know what will happen to them over time. The way production is calculated shows the guesswork the design must be using. Wanna mention poor workmanship? The lid didn't have anyway to seal. It was just a slipover cap with a hose connection. If you sealed the lid there is no way to get back inside to add water or clean.

Omega

07-29-2008, 04:33 PM

Smith03Jetta

07-29-2008, 05:02 PM

I know what 1 liter/minute looks like. That's not 1 liter/minute. Not even close. How do you measure a bubble to determine that it is 1 ml in volume? Then calculate 4 to 6 liter's minute based on the number of bubbles you get? I'm skeptical. I would, however like to know what his electrodes are made of... Even if he isn't getting high volumes, maybe it's something that we could work with. Graphite???

justaguy

07-29-2008, 09:06 PM

He sells the electrodes for 35.00. Said the last 3 to 4 months, so if he only uses water , what happens to them?

wljohns

07-29-2008, 09:11 PM

Went to the shed took down two carbon arrow shafts. Connected power from battery. Immersed in electrolite consisting of 1teaspoon NaoH in 1 gal distilled water. And BAM got production.
They would NOT arc out of the water and the connections were above water so the shaft HAD to be carrying the power.

Looked on ebay and shafts can be got fairly cheap in smaller sizes.
But how to attach other than clamps??
IDEAS?????

HomeGrown

07-29-2008, 09:40 PM

I know what 1 liter/minute looks like. That's not 1 liter/minute. Not even close.

My thoughts exactly. He was pretty "artistic" in his estimate of 10 bubbles/second. I counted much closer to 5. If he doesn't like the typical (and accepted) method of using a 1L bottle, he should at least utilize a legitimate flowmeter to support his claim.

I can only imagine how he arrived at his 80 MPG claim on in the '94 Camry.

snapper1d

07-29-2008, 10:42 PM

This has me wondering abour carbon welding electrodes.They used to use them to cut metal with an ac arc welder years ago.I dont know if they still have them now.Also the carbon rods in d cell batteries.It would take a bunch of them.

computerclinic

07-30-2008, 07:42 PM

I think that he is over estimating, and if you ask me, I also think that they are scamming folks into something.

Tap water isnt good at all...tried it, been there, done that long ago...Shoot I cant even use it to reliably clean out my genny without leaving some deposit. Then again, I am out here in east Butt Grab Oklahoma with a rural water supply with lots of minerals in the water, not to mention any other stuff like additives.

Im new on the idea of using carbon fiber, but I have a bunch of arrows...Think I might put it to the test, too..

HomeGrown

07-30-2008, 08:18 PM

Does carbon fiber conduct reasonably well? If so, it would probably work well. A nice cylindrical carbon fiber cell housing would be really nice.

hho_underground

07-31-2008, 12:03 PM

:confused: looks like pvc tubes within the unit... that can't be right...

timetowinarace

07-31-2008, 12:39 PM

I read a paper on micrometals and electrolysis. They had experimented with very pourous micrometals and according to the paper there was a substantial gain in effeciency. But the metal was very expensive. The theory was that the pourous metal had a very large surface area.

Carbon rods used for cutting (yes, they are still used commonly) are very pourous but have a thin copper coating because the inner carbon part is a poor conductor. They should be available in any welding supply store. Might be fun to play with them. Just peel the copper coating off.

timetowinarace

07-31-2008, 12:43 PM

:confused: looks like pvc tubes within the unit... that can't be right...

It appears to me that electrodes are within each seperate PVC pipe. The pipe is a insulator to the other electrodes to stop current leakage.

justaguy

07-31-2008, 08:16 PM

It appears to me that electrodes are within each seperate PVC pipe. The pipe is a insulator to the other electrodes to stop current leakage.

Now theres an idea, how about filling pvc pipes with SS ball bearings? Have a SS bolt through a pvc cap in the bottom for your battery connections.

cjdave

07-31-2008, 08:37 PM

Sodium Hyd, is so safe it is used mostly in soap!!

These videos.......I wish they could be made to tell the truth.

hydraficient

07-31-2008, 08:40 PM

Hey all....

I was just told about this forum and thought I should correct some of the misinformation that is present..

(This is a partial repost from one of the other threads but worth seeing)
Gas Production:
Our system is designed to work under vacuum. We use a proprietary electrode design that makes large quantity of really small bubbles. Without the vacuum many get suspended in the water and release slowly. Under vacuum we can really pull out the gases.

With all that in mind, it is pretty much impossible to measure lpm. We have tested it extensively on vehicles. Our resulting action on the engines is equivalent to 2-3 lpm.

Please keep in mind also, the video showed a test unit outside of the vehicle. Our production units vary quite a bit and of course are under vacuum.

Electrode
Our electrode design is very proprietary. We have actually just filed our patents on the design. I will say that there is no graphite involved and no SS Balls inside the tubes. Bottom line is we have a design the breaks water with less power (6 Amps) and much less heat. We operate around 160 degrees typically.

Water
Our system uses plain tap water. Distilled is TOO clean. Any external additives will destory our system within hours. (Not normal stuff in tap water but Baking Soda, Vinegar, etc).

Dealer Distribution Issues
I have heard some complain that until recently we were only offering systems to dealers. This was due to our desire to fill up the dealer channels prior to going direct to the public. It has worked well so far. However, no we are selling directly to the public.

Any other questions, please ask.

Tony
http://www.hydraficient.com

Smith03Jetta

08-01-2008, 04:03 PM

Well he's got secrets he is not willing to share. He could be using Cobalt Metal and Phosphate like the boys at MIT. Some people want to get rich. Some people just want to share the information to make the world a better place.

hho_underground

08-01-2008, 04:23 PM

Whatever it is, it has to be replaced every 3 to 4 months...

Maybe it's a taco from Taco Bell. I know when I eat one, I produce alot of gas...

HomeGrown

08-01-2008, 07:50 PM

He's got incredible claims, but no really credible proof. He claims it's "impossible" to measure LPM output on his unit, yet everyone else in the HHO community can manage to do it, and understands that this is one of the key performance indicators of a cell. His output simply doesn't live up to his claim. He also never responded to my question about his incredible 80 mpg Camry.

Quote from video:

"There's a '94 Camry we tested that got 80 miles per gallon with this unit installed on it."

If you can support a claim like that, people will beat a path to your door. If you can't or won't support the claim, you're just another schmuck.

djerickd

08-07-2008, 08:30 AM

Lets see some output videos!

HomeGrown

08-07-2008, 08:58 AM

Lets see some output videos!

See page 1, post 1. :rolleyes:

Smith03Jetta

08-07-2008, 08:58 AM

He didn't deny the MIT reference. The boys at MIT are using Cobalt/Phosphate mixture to create some oxygen and Platinum to Create the Hydrogen... Separately... The Platinum, however doesn't make sense in this guys design because their electode is used up after 3 or 4 months. Platinum is way too expensive and it doesn't get used up.

He could be electroplating some cheaper metal with platinum. That does seem feasible. Other possibilities are Palladium, Rhodium, Ruthenium, Iridium and Osmium. In the electroplating industry platinum is used to coat the anode for long lasting electrolysis at low voltages/high energy applications.

For the price it sounds like an aluminum/gallium compound. That will be used up like he states. The problem with aluminum/gallium compound is that it will continue to make pure hydrogen gas with no electricity. That doesn't make sense either. Pure hydrogen would give some really good mileage results because there is no oxygen present to mess with the O2 Sensors.

HomeGrown

08-07-2008, 09:10 AM

The problem with aluminum/gallium compound is that it will continue to make pure hydrogen gas with no electricity.

That's a problem? Sounds more like a dream come true. :)

I read awhile back about someone who developed an alloy or material that would produce hydrogen with no electricity, but it was burried (by the oil companys, presumably). Wouldn't be too difficult to design a system that could harness this method of gas production.

djerickd

08-07-2008, 09:41 AM

See page 1, post 1. :rolleyes:

I meant "measured" output videos, like into a bottle underwater...

Smith03Jetta

08-07-2008, 10:04 AM

I think I've found the answer or at least "AN" answer.

http://www.drugstore.com/qxp161248_333181_sespider/clear_care/convenience_pack.htm

This may seem stupid but I think I'm on to something here.

What else would fit inside some small PVC Pipe and make pure hydrogen.

Contact Lens Cleaner Platinum Plated Plastic Stars. Please see photos below. Lots of surface area and as small as a Penny. What do you think? These would not make a large volume as it would be pure hydrogen.

The last photo is of some used up platinum stars that some guy on the internet is trying to remove the metal from.

djerickd

08-07-2008, 10:32 AM

You are onto something for sure, i remember those old bubbling stars to clean contact lenses!!! always wondered how that worked...good work man!

Smith03Jetta

08-07-2008, 10:55 AM

...We use a proprietary electrode design that makes large quantity of really small bubbles... ...Our resulting action on the engines is equivalent to 2-3 lpm.

Tony isn't saying that it is producing 2 to 3 liters of gas a minute because it isn't. He's saying that it has the EQUIVALENT effect of 2 to 3 liters of HHO per minute.

Our electrode design is very proprietary. We have actually just filed our patents on the design. I will say that there is no graphite involved and no SS Balls inside the tubes. Bottom line is we have a design the breaks water with less power (6 Amps) and much less heat. We operate around 160 degrees typically.

The logical electrode material that would produce hydrogen with less power and less heat would be Platinum

Our system uses plain tap water. Distilled is TOO clean. Any external additives will destory our system within hours. (Not normal stuff in tap water but Baking Soda, Vinegar, etc).

The Platinum stars are eventually used up in the contact lens cleaning kits after a few cleanings. No electricity is being used in the contact lens cleaning kits but some chemicals are. What he said in that last statement makes sense. The natural minerals in tap water would have no oxidizing effect on platinum.

We can try this for very little cost. A package of the cleaning solution costs less than $8.00. Is anybody game?

I know that if I'm right this will really piss them off but I had this idea on my own without ever seeing their process or parts. They don't have a patent on anything yet so I say who cares.

stickittoopec

08-07-2008, 12:10 PM

It could be stainless wire on their anode and aluminum wire on the cathode. The wire would just be rapped tight around the PVC. That would make it very lightweight and still make hydrogen. You would have to replace the aluminum wire every so often. Their method of calculating gas flow is a real joke and way over stated. And as far as an earlier post about misinformation. The misinformation was in the video.

bobcampbell

08-07-2008, 12:22 PM

I noticed that there wasn't a seal. He also runs wires into the bottom of the cell. I think that would be a problem over time.

I really would like to know what the electrodes are.

My guess is high frequency EMF.
Watch this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf4gOS8aoFk&feature=PlayList&p=1663AE29007A9A3A&index=32

Bob Campbell

Smith03Jetta

08-07-2008, 12:30 PM

I think you guys are missing the point. I REALLY don't think they are producing HHO.

I think they are producing Hydrogen only. Platinum electrodes would allow this according to MIT's recently released information. Aluminum would not last 3 months. I guarantee it, in fact I've got $100 cash to the first person who can make an aluminum anode that small last 2 months. There's a challenge for you guys.

I completely disolved a Transmission Pulley cover plate off a Harley Davidson Sportster in 3 or 4 days without even using electricity. Water and NaOH only. It dissolved much faster using 6 amps of 12 volt electricity. There's no way he's using aluminum.

Smith03Jetta

08-07-2008, 01:02 PM

Hydraficient's website is down. I wonder why.

Never mind it's back up now... And it's still pretty as ever.

timetowinarace

08-07-2008, 01:05 PM

1. I think this is really being over discussed

2. It is correct that they could not accuratley measure output if vaccum is part of their design. I'd like to see someone here measure the output of their units under vaccum. Because of that, I havn't completely been convinced that vaccum does anything to increase production, though it is quite common to use it anyway.

3. I suppose we could guess for years what they are using for electrodes. It does no good.

4. No catalist in the water isn't revolutionary either. I get the same output at 30A with my tap(well) water as I do at 30A with distilled water and lye.

From the video and the information he gave here, I see nothing that would indicate a breakthrough in hho production or even hydrogen production. For booster applications, a large amount of hho is not neccisarily best. I don't see a need to maximize hho production in most booster applications, especially those concerning computerized engines.

HomeGrown

08-07-2008, 04:32 PM

I think you guys are missing the point. I REALLY don't think they are producing HHO.

I think they are producing Hydrogen only.

According to their website, they are indeed producing HHO, unless they want the masses to believe otherwise.

Produces HHO gas which will increase fuel efficiency by 25-80%.

ridelong

08-07-2008, 04:54 PM

timetowinarace,

I will measure my HHO output under vacuum when my flowmeter comes in tomorrow. It is a Dwyer 2-25 lpm.

Will post results.

BigTruck

08-07-2008, 07:49 PM

He did not burn/pop any bubbles in the video. He is wanting money from investors. There is no phone number on his web site? He is asking for alot of info and only giving an email address. Microsoft Frontpage can put together a web site in a few hours.

I think He's just some geeky egghead looking to rip off someone. Maybe he is a terrorist trying to raise money for Allah. Sorry I forgot... No more conspiracy theories.

ridelong

08-08-2008, 06:43 PM

Tried a Dwyer 2-25 lpm flowmeter on my gen., at 5.25 amps, and the engine at idle, the flowmeter went between 2 and 3 lpm.

The flowmeter ball became wet in 2 to 3 minutes, so I can only get good readings for 30 seconds or so.

The same gen. at normal pressure and 5.25 amps read about 0.25 lpm on a Dwyer 0.1 to 1 lpm flowmeter.

Stratous

08-08-2008, 07:17 PM

Water boils under vacuum, most of your "gas" was water vapor.

Smith03Jetta

08-08-2008, 10:27 PM

Here's why a vacuum applied to an HHO device produces more GAS.

Inches of Mercury - Boiling Point of Water °F

26.45 - 120

27.32 - 110

27.99 - 100

28.50 - 90

28.89 - 80

29.18 - 70

29.40 - 60

29.66 - 50

29.71 - 40

29.76 - 30

29.82 - 20

29.86 - 10

All values are at sea level. Subtract 1 inch for each 1000 ft. above sea level.

If you want to accurately measure how much HHO is being produced at a vacuum then turn off the HHO Electricity and turn on the vacuum pump. Check your flow meter. Write the flow rate down. Then turn on the HHO Electricity. Write the flow rate down. Subtract the first number from the second number and you get the HHO production rate. By subtracting out the first number you are dismissing the rate of flow produced by the vacuum alone. I'm guessing that most people are testing outside at near 70 to 80 degrees. For water to boil at that temperature you must put between 28 and 29 inches of vacuum on the system. Remember to calculate in your elevation. 1000 feet above sea level reduce 1 inch of mercury.

Please do this prior to posting that your system gets better HHO production under a vacuum. If it does, it does. If boiling water vapor is the source of some of the gas, you need to know it. It will affect your automobile's engine.

ridelong

08-10-2008, 02:29 PM

Smith03Jetta,

Took flowmeter measurements with unpowered gen. Readings were about 1 to 1.25 lpm.

Took flowmeter readings with gen powered at 8-9 amps. Readings were about 2.25 to 2.5 lpm.

Looks like I am generating a little over 1 lpm HHO at 8-9 amps.

The flowmeter I am using is really borderline for the flows I am measuring, that is why a range and not a value for lpm.

I think the water vapor also helps mpg, and the truck runs fine.

BTW, I connected a vacuum gauge to the intake. Highest vacuum reading observed was 21 inches, right after reving the engine then quickly closing the throttle plate

Also boiling point of water at 21 inches of mercury = 156.75