Advance Timing Controls

[bergs23]

Anyone using timing controls to advance the ignition for better fuel economy?

[lhazleton]

With HHO, you want to RETARD, not advance the timing.
The introduction of Hydroxy results in a much quicker burn rate.

[Roland Jacques]

It seems most anti-knocks sensors handles the retarding.

[bergs23]

With HHO, you want to RETARD, not advance the timing.
The introduction of Hydroxy results in a much quicker burn rate.

My understanding Top Dead Center is the point of full compression before power stroke, and the time it takes for gasoline to burn/combust you need to RETARD the ignition 20 degrees before TDC (set from the factory) so the explosion(force of the gasoline) is on the down stroke. Now when you add HHO it speeds up the burn rate and you then need to ADVANCE the timing toward TDC. (instead of being say 20 degree its now 15, 10 or 5 degrees before TDC, depending on amount of HHO)

[Roland Jacques]

you need to RETARD the ignition 20 degrees before TDC

and you then need to ADVANCE the timing toward TDC.

Yes your thought is correct, but the names you are using are backwards.

Moving timing further before TDC is Advancing. ( from 20 too 30 BTDC)
Moving timing closer to TDC or even after TDC is retarding ( from 20 too 10 BTDC)

[N11634]

Can we all just agree that retarding it will make it fire later and advancing it will make it fire earlier? TDC is only the reference for the degrees it needs to be at.:D It's either before or after TDC.;)

[lhazleton]

Can we all just agree that retarding it will make it fire later and advancing it will make it fire earlier? TDC is only the reference for the degrees it needs to be at.:D It's either before or after TDC.;)

Thank-you. At least someone gets it!:)

[N11634]

I practically grew up in a service station.:D

[bergs23]

LOL I think I've got it now ;) :D Thanks all!

[astrocady]

So how many degrees change is a good starting point?

[richard_lyew]

Anyone using timing controls to advance the ignition for better fuel economy?

just use a AFC. look into it

[bergs23]

just use a AFC. look into it

anyone using an AFC on an ECU??

[bergs23]

Most of the newer cars and trucks the timing is automatically advance according to the data the ECU received from multiple sensors on board.

So according to this, just adding the HHO generator will be enough to gain improvements, yes? Do you need to reset the ECU or anything else?

[lhazleton]

Wrong. Simply adding HHO to your car will do little or nothing as far as MPG's are concerned. First off, for a 2.0L, you'll need to produce 1LPM minimum, which is easy to do. You'll need to fool the O2 sensor by using an O2 EFIE. If you add HHO without one, the increase in the oxygen level of the exhaust will tell the ECU that it's running lean and will dump more fuel.

[RustyLugNut]

Wrong. Simply adding HHO to your car will do little or nothing as far as MPG's are concerned. First off, for a 2.0L, you'll need to produce 1LPM minimum, which is easy to do. You'll need to fool the O2 sensor by using an O2 EFIE. If you add HHO without one, the increase in the oxygen level of the exhaust will tell the ECU that it's running lean and will dump more fuel.

With all due respect, the addition of HHO does little to the fuel balance. I have not seen any indication during my tests or anyone else using wide band sensors, that this is true. The HHO is balanced going in the engine. It is more reactive than the fuel. It combusts to near completion. And exits as pure water. The fuel ratio stays the same.

Timing, extended lean mix, and other variables are what is important. Sometimes, the addition of HHO does result in measurably improved mileage with no added tuning, due to a perfect storm of variables. But, most vehicles will need some work to gain an economy advantage.

[rcflyn]

This is just my observation on ONE Vehicle. So I can't speak for any others than My ONE so far...
With NO Electronics installed, as long as my Check engine light it OFF, I get anywhere from 1-4 MPG increase. BUT, as Soon as the Check Engine Light comes on, It'll go back to it's original 12.5ish mpg. I've got a nice Scanner always hooked up in the van, so I can read any codes as they pop up... 99% of the time, it's a Lean condition with the O2 sensors. Clear the codes, and I get my 1-4mpg back........

HHO will be going into a couple different vehicles soon, then I can base my discoveries on them too.....

[lhazleton]

Brian, WTF's up with the diamond & mighty-mite reactors?
Haven't heard much lately.

[RustyLugNut]

This is just my observation on ONE Vehicle. So I can't speak for any others than My ONE so far...
With NO Electronics installed, as long as my Check engine light it OFF, I get anywhere from 1-4 MPG increase. BUT, as Soon as the Check Engine Light comes on, It'll go back to it's original 12.5ish mpg. I've got a nice Scanner always hooked up in the van, so I can read any codes as they pop up... 99% of the time, it's a Lean condition with the O2 sensors. Clear the codes, and I get my 1-4mpg back........

HHO will be going into a couple different vehicles soon, then I can base my discoveries on them too.....

Information such as your experience is invaluable in deriving the "hows and whys" of HHO use.

I am not intimate with your van's fuel system and your HHO system, but I must caution against jumping to a conclusion that may be erroneous, based on what you have observed, without a bit more digging.

The fact that the addition of HHO leads to the vehicle ECU throwing a "lean condition" error code, may lead many to conclude that the HHO causes a lean condition in the exhaust. But, this is a simplistic conclusion that ignores many unknown variables and operating parameters. It outlines the pitfalls the lay person comes up against when doing "research" on the singularly most advanced piece of machinery most of us own.

Is your van's fuel system based on speed-density or mass-air flow?

How much HHO and steam are you introducing into the engine, and where in the intake are you introducing the product gasses?

What is the exhaust temperature during power production modes?

What is the sensor array inputs to the ECU and what is the ECU logic map for these sensor inputs?

There can be many more.

I cannot exactly say what happened with your engine, but I can give a qualified guess based on my experiences. I always run a combination of a Fluke exhaust pyrometer and Innovate MotorSports wide band O2 sensor in the exhaust for testing. An old, vehicle portable BlackHawk exhaust gas analyzer gives me readings for HC and CO at the tailpipe. Data logging is via what is inherent in the Fluke and IM meters and a co driver with a clipboard and stop watch. The HHO cell array has a current controller to vary output. A scanner is run continuously for vehicles with OBD systems.

This much I have noted in all vehicles that have no electronic additions and see an increase in power and efficiency with HHO addition - the exhaust temperature drops a measurable amount.

This has been noted and discussed by others on this forum who run EGT (exhaust gas temperature) gauges. This is due to the increase in the mean effective pressure occurring during the 180 degree power stroke and the resultant increase in energy extraction. Your mileage efficiency can now increase. However, some systems will drop into limp home mode (LHM) and throw an error code due to the O2 sensor running "cool". LHM usually means a somewhat rich overall mix is set by the ECU to protect the engine. This kills mileage. Even with electrically heated O2 sensors, the ECU can sense the increased time the sensor needs heating and compares it to it's program map and throws an error code when it varies too greatly. The "cool O2 sensor" situation may not occur in all power output modes. It usually occurs during idle and off idle modes, and when it extends past a certain limit, the ECU throws the error code and adjusts running parameters.

I hope this casts some light on your research efforts - not a dark shadow.

[richard_lyew]

Information such as your experience is invaluable in deriving the "hows and whys" of HHO use.

I am not intimate with your van's fuel system and your HHO system, but I must caution against jumping to a conclusion that may be erroneous, based on what you have observed, without a bit more digging.

The fact that the addition of HHO leads to the vehicle ECU throwing a "lean condition" error code, may lead many to conclude that the HHO causes a lean condition in the exhaust. But, this is a simplistic conclusion that ignores many unknown variables and operating parameters. It outlines the pitfalls the lay person comes up against when doing "research" on the singularly most advanced piece of machinery most of us own.

Is your van's fuel system based on speed-density or mass-air flow?

How much HHO and steam are you introducing into the engine, and where in the intake are you introducing the product gasses?

What is the exhaust temperature during power production modes?

What is the sensor array inputs to the ECU and what is the ECU logic map for these sensor inputs?

There can be many more.

I cannot exactly say what happened with your engine, but I can give a qualified guess based on my experiences. I always run a combination of a Fluke exhaust pyrometer and Innovate MotorSports wide band O2 sensor in the exhaust for testing. An old, vehicle portable BlackHawk exhaust gas analyzer gives me readings for HC and CO at the tailpipe. Data logging is via what is inherent in the Fluke and IM meters and a co driver with a clipboard and stop watch. The HHO cell array has a current controller to vary output. A scanner is run continuously for vehicles with OBD systems.

This much I have noted in all vehicles that have no electronic additions and see an increase in power and efficiency with HHO addition - the exhaust temperature drops a measurable amount.

This has been noted and discussed by others on this forum who run EGT (exhaust gas temperature) gauges. This is due to the increase in the mean effective pressure occurring during the 180 degree power stroke and the resultant increase in energy extraction. Your mileage efficiency can now increase. However, some systems will drop into limp home mode (LHM) and throw an error code due to the O2 sensor running "cool". LHM usually means a somewhat rich overall mix is set by the ECU to protect the engine. This kills mileage. Even with electrically heated O2 sensors, the ECU can sense the increased time the sensor needs heating and compares it to it's program map and throws an error code when it varies too greatly. The "cool O2 sensor" situation may not occur in all power output modes. It usually occurs during idle and off idle modes, and when it extends past a certain limit, the ECU throws the error code and adjusts running parameters.

I hope this casts some light on your research efforts - not a dark shadow.

very very good, sounds like ur up to speed. even thou i use a AFC to control what my ECU see i still installed a MAF meter to keep an eye on my MAF sensor because sometimes you might have a air leak and dont know. also please point out that the richest time of operation in an ECU is the cold start when the ECU try to warn the engine. :D

[bergs23]

very very good, sounds like ur up to speed. even thou i use a AFC to control what my ECU see i still installed a MAF meter to keep an eye on my MAF sensor because sometimes you might have a air leak and dont know. also please point out that the richest time of operation in an ECU is the cold start when the ECU try to warn the engine. :D

So why do you use an AFC? the the car put too much gas into the engine? I mean, everyone else says just add HHO+MAF controller and the ECU will make the changes, NO?