How do alternators handle HHO?

[HHOhoper]

I'm curious about any experiences anyone has had with their alternators. A lot of the sceptics I heard from say that your alternator will be fried if you use enough electricity to make an HHO generator actually produce anything. How have your alternators been holding up with adding HHO to their load?

[snapper1d]

They started putting alternaters on cars when I was in mechanics school.Well I guess that tells about how old I am.They put out from 12v to 13.8 at idle.Some a little mor.When they reach a certain rpm they crank out 15v on a perfect one or they are supposed to anyway.I have never seen one that has fried from pulling to many amps.I am not saying they wont.Just I have not seen one or heard of one doing it.They tend to go up to top output and will hold that.The regulators are what regulate the output.From what I have seen the regulators hold them back.I guess if a regulator was to short on an altenater it could fry but they usually quit and you lose output.Mostly they just tend to go out from bearing wear,diode going out or brushes wearing out.There is a guy that comes in my brothers store that has rebuilt altenaters gfor a living for many many years and I will ask him when I see him.

[HYDROTEKPRO]

As electrolyzer is run, it warms up from the electrolysis occurring inside. As it warms up, it draws more current (amperage), and produces more oxyhydrogen gas. The temperature increase improves the conductivity of the electrolyte, and as a result, the electrolyzer draws more amperage, and as a result of that, it produces yet even more HHO. This is the normal cycle inside an electrolyzer. There are ways to limit the temperature, the heat, or the current (amperage draw, not the volts). This can be done with weak electrolyte for example, but you give up some HHO production until your electrolyzer gets warmed up. Pulse Width Modulators (PWM units) are said to regulate the current, but they do some neat little tricks above and beyond that. That's another huge discussion all by itself.

Alternators produce their 13.8 volts DC at whatever amperage is needed by the car and it's accessories, on demand, as needed. This is regulated by the regulator. Most vehicles have alternators with an amperage rating, such as 120amps, for example. This is what the alternator can deliver, and it usually delivers less than that, because it's only delivering what's needed, when needed.

Critics say anything they can dream up, partially true, completely false, whatever, against this new, up and coming technology.

The question of over-taxing an alternator is an excellent one. Exactly WHAT is too much, for any given alternator. Part of this depends on the available amperage from your alternator, vs. the amperage draw of your electrolyzer, and other accessories and components in your vehicle.

Seems to me that if you've got 20, 30, 40 or whatever usually available amps from your alternator, that aren't being used, and now you're using them with the electrolyzer, shouldn't be a problem. But consult a few alternator experts before making your own decision about this. One thing we have noticed during our testing is that in many vehicles, extra draw on an alternator (such as that of an electrolyzer), increases the load on the engine (depending on the amperage draw of that electrolyzer). This is because the alternator goes into a "harder working mode", and the engine changes it's idle tone from a "free idle" to a "idle under load". This is just like when the car is idling nice and easy, and you turn on the air-conditioner. When you turn on the air-conditioner at idle, the engine now has a new load, and the sound of the idle changes, and you can hear that change.

Not to be too long winded here, but intending to be of help to new HHO peoples, consult a few different alternator experts. This is because you want to weed out the opinion of the dishonest guy just looking to make a sale, whether you need a new alternator or not. Some guys will look you straight in the face, and tell you a lie, tell you that you need the bla-de-bla blinker fluid, becuase their business sucks, because they are dishonest. As a result they become desparate for customers. Common knowledge for most here, but good to be aware of for the chicks and newbies. Also good to ask a few different people because some people just don't know, and they SHOULD know, it's their friggin' job ferchrissakes. You don't know how often we talk to somebody about this stainless steel, or that bla-de-bla, after having done a little bit of internet research, and they don't know WTF! What's the melting point of your 316L?? "DUH, well," and they change the subject. Do a quick GOOGLE and look for yourself. Person is selling steel, they should know the melting point, right? Alot of these people (not everybody of course) are just plain stupid, yet they assert this superiority attitude when talking to you, you know? Just pisses me off when I ask a so called "expert" something, and they know less than I do about something which is their damn job. BLA-BLA-BLA, okay, I'm done venting, thanks.

[HHOhoper]

:D Feel better?

I understand completely. I HATE that as well. I would like to know if there's a way to know what your alternator is rated for in terms of amperage and then what kind of draw is on it at a given time. For example, you could have your generator on, the A/C on, the radio on, the headlights on, etc, and see how hard your alternator is working.

Has anyone on this forum actually had first hand experience with an alternator going out prematurely after putting an HHO generator on your car? I know that alternators will go out prematurely on their own sometimes, but I'm curious to know if anyone has themselves, or knows anyone who has had any problems related with HHO draw.

[Smith03Jetta]

You can go to Autozone.com or another similar auto parts store online and look up a replacement alternator for your car. I looked up mine and it is rated for 90 amps. I'm pretty sure I am not pulling nearly that number right now. If I was it would not be long before I ran my battery down or my lights would dim considerably when running 16 amps HHO at night. No problems so far.

I disconnected my Daytime Running lights to save me 5 amps so I'm only netting 11 amps.

To keep my car battery in top condition once a month I plug it into a battery charger overnight to top off the charge.

[HYDROTEKPRO]

So what's the deal? Is this like worrying about blinker fluid?

[porkchop]

Mine is a 90 amp also. I don't know what the Jeep pulls when stuff is running, but I asked the manager at Advance Auto ( he is really good with cars, not just a flunkie from the streets) and he said it should be fine. I'm pulling between 10 -15 amps on the gen.

[HYDROTEKPRO]

So who knows exactly about this?

[Jaxom]

This is my bread and butter. I support my family on automotive repair.

Increasing the load on the electrical system can fry the alternator, but an HHO generator isn't going to do it unless it takes up half your trunk and draws an outrageous amount of current. Alternators are rated for a certain current output, but that rating is the max it can put out AND STILL CHARGE THE BATTERY. Once you break the rated amperage draw, the alternator still puts out, just at a reduced voltage level. The more current you pull, the lower the voltage gets, until it drops below battery voltage. At this time the battery will start to discharge, your lights will get dim, and eventually the car will die.

It's important to keep in mind the fact that at lower RPM's the alternator has a harder time keeping up. Therefore, if you're going to have this type of problem, it's far more likely to occur driving around town in stop-and-go traffic than on the open road doing 70mph.

Snapper is right about alternators. The windings hardly ever cause a problem. 98% of alternator failures are due to bad diodes in the rectifier bridge, or bad shaft bearings. The diodes can be burned out by an overcurrent condition, (they get hotter the more current you pull through them,) but the aluminum alternator case doubles as a heat-sink for the diodes so they can handle a lot.

[HYDROTEKPRO]

This is great, a knowledgeable, qualified answer!

The alternator has to keep the battery charged, make current for the engine, all of the car accessories like the lights, stereo, power windows, power this and that, and still have the capacity to make more current.

So let's say for example, a car has a 100 amp alternator stock. What amperage HHO system would be the max, that you'd put in that car, knowing that the 100 amp alternator could comfortably handle the load without reducing the lifespan of that alternator or it's associated electrical components??

[Painless]

So let's say for example, a car has a 100 amp alternator stock. What amperage HHO system would be the max, that you'd put in that car, knowing that the 100 amp alternator could comfortably handle the load without reducing the lifespan of that alternator or it's associated electrical components??

I have to say that this question has bugged me for a while too, I want to know how much amperage I can use from my pickup or HHO generation *WITHOUT* a) causing undue component wear in my electrical system or b) stopping the battery charging.

I have a sunpro ammeter and I'm thinking of connecting it up to see, over a period of time, how many amps my complete truck is drawing. Coming home from work at night with the full beams on and my stereo running as loud as I like it seems to me to be the best test. With this info, I'm thinking I can then find out the max output of my alternator and do some simple math:

HHO-amps = Alternator-max - Max-draw

With a safety threshold of, say, 10%.

Am I on the right track here? I've already bought a jump start box to carry around when I first install my system, just in case!

[HYDROTEKPRO]

Yeah, this exact question answered honestly and accurately will be a big help to alot of people.

It looks like Jaxom is an expert, and could find this out for everybody!

Hope the safe amp margin is a large % of the alternator amp rating, otherwise the aftermarket, high-output alternator companies will be doing really good business for the next few years!:D

Here's just one company that is supposed to make really good, aftermarket, high-output alternators:
http://www.mean-green.com/

[timetowinarace]

I suppose anyone worried about the amp draw and their alternator could install the ammeter as Painless has suggested. I use mine to monitor the amp draw of the cell. For a few bucks you can know excactly how many amps your whole auto electrical system is drawing at any time.

[HYDROTEKPRO]

You're right, an ammeter is what you use to measure amps. And it's a perfect tool to help perfect an HHO system.

But it doesn't answer the question. What is the safe margin of Ampere draw for an HHO system, vs. the amperage rating of a typical car alternator?

Some cars have 50 amp alternators, some have 120 amp alternators. Therefore, there has to be an approximate percentage of the amperage rating of any given car's alternator. This %, when multiplied by the amperage rating of a car's alternator, would be the ideal maximum amperage draw of an HHO system, for THAT car.

With this found out (Jaxom, where are you?), a person can calculate the appropriate maximum amperage draw for an HHO system, for their own car!

[mario brito]

You're right, an ammeter is what you use to measure amps. And it's a perfect tool to help perfect an HHO system.

But it doesn't answer the question. What is the safe margin of Ampere draw for an HHO system, vs. the amperage rating of a typical car alternator?

Some cars have 50 amp alternators, some have 120 amp alternators. Therefore, there has to be an approximate percentage of the amperage rating of any given car's alternator. This %, when multiplied by the amperage rating of a car's alternator, would be the ideal maximum amperage draw of an HHO system, for THAT car.

With this found out (Jaxom, where are you?), a person can calculate the appropriate maximum amperage draw for an HHO system, for their own car!

the hard way : keep pushing further untill you burn it. :D then try again with 25% less.

the easy way : see what's the alternator Amps rating and use only 75%.

experience tells me that any normal mechanic or electric system can be safely used up to 75% :)

thanks

[HYDROTEKPRO]

LOL!

So a car with a 100 amp alternator, make your HHO system to draw 75 amps? Seems a little too high. But I'd LOVE to be wrong about this one!:D

I'm guessing somewhere between 20% to 50% of the amp rating of a car's alternator. But it's still only a guess. It'd really be nice to know for sure.

Anybody?

[mario brito]

LOL!

So a car with a 100 amp alternator, make your HHO system to draw 75 amps? Seems a little too high. But I'd LOVE to be wrong about this one!:D

I'm guessing somewhere between 20% to 50% of the amp rating of a car's alternator. But it's still only a guess. It'd really be nice to know for sure.

Anybody?

no :) i said that the alternator could most probably handle 75% of its max without burning. and in those 75% you need to include every other component that needs electric power. the 25% margin is a safe value that i use in alot of things. let's just say that it is my "safe" magic percentage :)

i know that i still not answered your question, but i think you answered yourself. either you believe the max rating from the manufacturer or play safe. i prefer to play safe :)

thanks

[HomeGrown]

There's a guy on waterforfuel.com who is rewinding alternators specifically for HHO production, and I think they're designed to be secondary alternators, used exclusively for the cell. He's one of the guys who's building a system to run his truck on water only. He's working with older alternators that have no internal regulator. I looked on my old Camry, and it appears that I actually have enough room to install an additional alternator. Too bad I don't yet have a cell that's worthy of a second alternator.

[timetowinarace]

You're right, an ammeter is what you use to measure amps. And it's a perfect tool to help perfect an HHO system.

But it doesn't answer the question. What is the safe margin of Ampere draw for an HHO system, vs. the amperage rating of a typical car alternator?

Some cars have 50 amp alternators, some have 120 amp alternators. Therefore, there has to be an approximate percentage of the amperage rating of any given car's alternator. This %, when multiplied by the amperage rating of a car's alternator, would be the ideal maximum amperage draw of an HHO system, for THAT car.

With this found out (Jaxom, where are you?), a person can calculate the appropriate maximum amperage draw for an HHO system, for their own car!

Use the automotive ammeter to measure the whole electrical system for the auto. That is what it's made for. So it does answer the question. If your alternator is rated for 100amps don't go over that. Go to 75 as suggested.

[Painless]

I think a cab mounted voltmeter for your battery would be a good safety precaution too, you will see a drop in voltage if battery charge begins to suffer.

[njr905]

I think the problem here is how much heat can the alternator take before one component gives in. And you only need one, believe me.
With enough rpm, the alternator can only give you as much as 100% depending on it's condition, on demand, if and when needed.

You can draw 100% of it's maximum rating and still get the charge but more current you draw the more heat is produced stressing out the diodes, regulator, alternator winding and the bearings. Bearings have a different story.

The fans if front of the alternator might not be enough to cool down specific components. The alternator isn't stressed (bearings not accounted for) in idle since it's really producing a lot less current by turning at a slower pace, you only drain the battery.

I think if somehow you can dissipate the extra heat (fins, heat sinks, water spray or whatever), you can draw out maximum current for a longer period of time.

But here's the catch, I don't care how efficient your cooling method is, the more current you draw, (not only produce extra heat as mentioned above) the more stress you bearings will have to take.

You see, alternators tend to resist the turning power of the engine when charging and resist even more when the load get higher, friction takes place inside the bearings. More friction, more heat, more heat....well, you get the idea right? :D

Heat from the bearing isn't something you can easily dissipate.
Unless you can modify the bearings which might not justify the cost.

[richard_lyew]

just upgrade your alternator like i did. now my alternator can handle 200amps easy http://www.alternatorparts.com/