Smith Experiment in HHO [Archive]

Smith03Jetta

06-06-2008, 12:25 PM

FYI,

An O2 extender can be purchased at any auto parts store. It doesn't go by that name and will require a small modification.

Browse the "HELP" shelf and look for a device "That looks just like an O2 Extender" but is made for Spark plugs. It is designed to pull Spark plugs out of a cylinder that is leaking oil. It prevents the spark plug from gumming up. It's called a Oil Burner or Anti-Foul adapter. Just ask the couter person at Autozone, Advance, Oreilly or any other auto parts store in the world. I think it's a HELP! brand Part#42002 or 42009, 18mm.

You will need to make sure you get the right size threads. Spark plugs come in different sizes, you know... The best way to make sure is ask the counter guy to show you an O2 Sensor from the stacks behind the counter. It doesn't matter what kind. They are all the same size threads (To the best of my knowlege) except a few select vehicles. Saturn and some Toyotas, I think. Some trucks have a bolt on type sensor as well. Compare the threads to make sure you buy the right twin-pack of Anti-Foul Spark plug adapters.

It comes in a two pack. You will probably need to drill out "ONE" of the devices so the O2 sensor will fit. Do not drill out both extenders. The drill bit size will depend on the size of your O2 sensor. After that, screw the "drilled out" adapter into the non-drilled out adapter and install as shown in the attached photo. The photo is from a Scion but you get the idea.

I had a bit of trouble with the O2 sensor for my Jetta. It's got a metal shroud that's pretty wide around the actual sensor. I cut it off with a bandsaw so the O2 sensor would fit down in the Extender. The Extender does the same job as the shroud that I cut off. If cutting off the part damages my sensor, then I'm out about $45.00 and shipping.

The main purpose for trying this HHO conversion is to save money. The Ebay Extenders cost about $10.00 plus shipping and you have to wait on shipping. This pack costs about $4.00 and tax. You can install it the same day. You may have extra cost if you don't already have a properly sized drill bit. A 1/2" drill bit should be perfect for most applications.

Mr. Smith

hydro

06-06-2008, 01:39 PM

Looking good. Can’t wait to hear about the results.

I hope to log the building and installation of my cell on the forum as well. Still in the planning phase.

But I wouldn't keep the cell inside the passenger cabin as this is obviously not safe.

Smith03Jetta

06-06-2008, 02:34 PM

I'm aware of the safety issue but I have no room under the hood of my car for the device. I'll have to take some time to remove my windshield washer fluid reservoir and build a generator that will fit in that space. That is, of course if this test improves my gas mileage noticeably.

I have put 47 miles on this tank of gas so far. Some of the time I used my AC. I've noticed that on the Interstate, it's more efficient to roll up the windows and use the AC. If you drive around 70mph with the windows down, it produces enough drag to reduce your mileage. Nothing really to report except as the device runs, it gets warmer. I'm not sure what the temp is...

I noticed that as it gets warmer, the machine makes more bubbles. As it makes more bubbles, they tend to foam slightly. This forces water out the top of the bubbler and into the line. I stopped at Home Depot and purchased at TEE and a valve. I put the tee in to drain off excess water into a reservoir to later pour back into the generator. I also need to figure out why it's getting so hot. The 25 amp fuse did not blow so i'll drop to a 20 amp fuse on my next 30 miles run this afternoon.

It's possible that I used too much baking soda. I'll get another gallon of water this afternoon and reduce the amount of soda. This should help, maybe???

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-06-2008, 03:27 PM

I have a question... What is the lowest voltage that I can run and not have a noticeable drop in HHO production/Gas mileage? I'm thinking that if I run lower voltage, I can run cooler. If I installed a 12 volt to 4 volt transformer for example, will this have any effect? I know that amperage is the main factor but i thought I'd pose the question.

Mr. Smith

Stratous

06-06-2008, 04:20 PM

I have read in other forums that 3 to 5 volts is the best as far as heat and production ratios. I have run 24 volts and had amazing production levels, but heat was a monster.

Smith03Jetta

06-06-2008, 05:17 PM

I just remembered. I purchased a 12 volt variable transformer about 13 years ago. It's somewhere on a shelf in my garage. It is adjustable from 3 to 7.5 volts.

I used it to keep a dirt-devil hand-vac charged in my work vehicle.

Mr. Smith

gidrew

06-06-2008, 10:13 PM

They will get hot. One solution is to mount it where air can hit it and cool it off. Another is when you cant mount it under the grill, (I also cant mount mine behind the grill) is to install a cooling system. I found a 12v dc pump from walmart that has a 3/4 thread for the inlet and a hose connection for the outlet. It is meant for a live well on a boat, for recirulating the water to keep bait alive. I am going to drill and tap a 3/4" thread into the bottom of the 4" cap, and run some tubing to the grill in front of the fan (for airflow when im not moving) and since i am a plumber, I happen to have some 3/8" copper tubing from a job left over, since copper dispurses heat well, it will work great for cooling.

Stratous

06-07-2008, 02:17 PM

I havent tried copper yet, but I used an aluminum radiator. It lasted about 3 days before the eletrolyte ate through it. Most people say using different types of metals in your system is bad as it causes corrosion. Though, it cant hurt to try i guess.

hamcampro

06-07-2008, 02:58 PM

Smith03Jetta have you done anything to modify your sensors? I've been doing some research for my 94 Altima and it has an O2 sensor and a MAF sensor. My generator is feeding in after the MAF sensor so I'm mostly bypassing that but the O2 sensor is in with the exhaust and tells the engine to add more gas when it notices the additional oxygen in the exhaust. With newer cars the generator alone will only slightly increase your mpg at best. To fully enjoy the benefits of the hho generator the fuel to air ratio needs to be adjusted. Either through the MAF (or MAP) sensor, the O2 sensor, or an Electronic Fuel Injection Enhancer (EFIE).

Ronjinsan

06-07-2008, 05:42 PM

Mr Smith

You are truly the first person I have seen who has succesfully answered all his own questions without intervention! You dont happen to be a psychiatrist by profession do you? I really think, that as a starting non-believer come sceptic, you have progressed incredibly. Its all good, and as you learn, so you teach....I'm certain you will be able to help lots of people here soon! I missed 1 day of this thread and I feel ancient! Welcome to the forum...:D

Smith03Jetta

06-08-2008, 12:26 AM

I'm not a shrink. I manage the IT operations for a carpet mill in Georgia.

I did a 100 mile MPG test. I ran exactly 99.8 miles and pulled in to the Kangaroo Station. The 87 octane fuel cost $3.76 a gallon. I calculated the MPG at 31.5. That does not seem significant but during my test, I was on the interstate doing 75 to 80 with the AC running. I normally get about 25 mpg under those driving conditions. I calculated that I achieved a 25% increase in my gas mileage. The Jetta normally gets 31 mpg driving 60 with the AC off in the winter.

I attribute a 10% increase in my fuel mileage to tampering with the O2 sensor. That is supposed to lean out the fuel consumption. The other 15% has got to be the HHO.

I did a volume test this morning and my generator makes 1 liter in 4 minutes. Not the best in the world. I think I'll try something else...

Here's what I did.

I decided to modify my plate array and build a larger generator today. I went to Home Depot. Bought some more PVC pipe, stainless bolts, Wire, etc... I built 4 separate 4-plate thingys and connected their ground plates together on a single stainless ground strap. I bolted the strap through the wall of the PVC. The Positive posts of each 4-plate setup I ran through the PVC as well and allows for individual plug-unplug from the outside of the pipe. I connecte d all 4 in series and tried it out. I got significant output. More than before, running 12 plates on one array with neutral plates. I'm not sure about the volume this time. I did not measure it.

I noticed that the wires I used to run the series were not heavy enough so it started to get really hot too quick. I shut it off. Before I shut it off, however I ran the hose to a bucket of soapy water and made myself some bubbles. I got the kids to come out and look at the bubbles and decided to light the bubbles. There weren't many. A half liter maybe. I lit them with a BBQ lighter and the explosion just about knocked me on my butt. The flash was about the size of a basketball. My ears are still ringing slightly now. It's been an hour and a half since... That was cool. Dangerous but cool. The sound was similar to a high powered rifle. I'm sure I pissed off my neighbors.

I'll post some photos when I get time.

In response to a previous question...

As far as the O2 sensor goes, I pulled the O2 sensor out of the exhaust flow a little to lean up the engine a bit.

Mr. Smith

Stratous

06-08-2008, 01:05 AM

LMAO, that will learn ya!!!! :p
I did something similar in the house last night. Scared the crap out of my wife, I got some seriously dirty looks.:eek:

Smith03Jetta

06-08-2008, 02:56 PM

More Photos. I've got some more photos to post. This first set of photos is from my first attempt. The second set will be of the new generator that I have yet to install in my car.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-08-2008, 03:01 PM

This set of photos is from my latest generator (Third Attempt). It's larger, has 4 separate stacks that I can disconnect individually from outside the chamber without opening the tube. I've got to get some larger wire today before I hook it all up. I'll get back some results when I get done.

As you can see from the photos, It's a little Orange inside. That's because I hooked it up for a test run for a few minutes before disassembling for re-wiring.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-08-2008, 03:04 PM

Photos Continued...

One thing you will notice is that I sealed the fittings with pure silicon sealant. It is waterproof and withstands up to 400 degrees F.

On my first attempts, I had several small dripping leaks. If I move away from baking soda and try Potassium Hydroxide I will definitely not want any leaks.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-08-2008, 03:22 PM

I'm putting a video of my first generator on Youtube. The link is below. You won't see much except the device is hooked up to my car battery with Jumper cables. You will see the bubbler working.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/21ph-UF59Wo"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/21ph-UF59Wo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed> </object>

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-08-2008, 11:03 PM

I'm happy about the output on my latest generator but I'm concerned about overheating on my wires. I'm connecting each side of my device with 14 gauge wire to the switch. It's the 14 gauge that's getting hot. I'm running 4 gauge wire to ground and from the main system fuse to the switch. I'm now producing nearly 1 liter per minute. That's up from 1 liter every 4.5 minutes.

I've hooked up a dual switch so I can power 2 plates at a time or 4 plates.

I don't really have too many things laying around the shop that will hold up to the heat I'm generating on the wires. I'm using an old Harley Davidson Ignition switch.

Mr. Smith

bagrman

06-09-2008, 01:46 AM

Put 5 neutral plates between you positive and negative. 5 plates with give you 2-2.3 volts and that enough to make gas and help control the heat. A PWM will keep the heat down and give you more gas, I'm trying to get some made now. 1/2 tsp per gallon is enough baking soda, a 1/4 cup of vinegar will keep the plates clean.

Latr
Bagrman

Ronjinsan

06-09-2008, 04:24 AM

Will be interesting to see how the heat goes! After much screwing around and testing over the past months I finally decided on the best plate config on Saterday! Built a new cell with 75mm x 120mm x.9 plates 316 SS and used the +nnn-nnn+ config. Drove it to work this morning........stayed really cool. I think I am finally going to stick with this one. It gives nice production with little heat on Sodium Hydroxide without a PWM, which by the way we tried and were not happy with! :D:D

Smith03Jetta

06-09-2008, 09:40 AM

I'm getting plenty of HHO but I've got to make some changes AGAIN...

I think I got overheated because I've got my setup done the following way. I went for high Gas production regardless of Amp draw.

4 arrays of 16 plates total.
pos, neg, neg, pos
pos, neg, neg, pos
pos, neg, neg, pos
pos, neg, neg, pos

No Neutral Plates.

I'll go back and re-configure my plates because I'm really concerned about overheating... I'm not popping fuses... I'm melting them. They literally melt and fall out. I also had some wires get hot enough to melt to each other. This really surprised me because I thought the fuse would blow before the wires melted.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-09-2008, 09:44 AM

... and used the +nnn-nnn+ config...

Question... on your diagram above, does each symbol stand for a single plate? Or are you using Plate pairs separated/connected by washers?

PosPos NeuNeu NeuNeu NegNeg NeuNeu NeuNeu PosPos = 14 plates

Or

Pos Neu Neu Neg Neu Neu Pos = 7 plates

Mr. Smith

Ronjinsan

06-09-2008, 09:52 AM

Kewl go for less plates and add neutrals....at least 3, I had 2 for a long time but eventually got better proudtion with 3. My old config was +NN-NN+ Like yours but it was still pretty warm at times specially on hot days and even with active cooling. Now I run +NNN-NNN+ it works! :D Oh and remember that negatives facing each other dont do anything on that side!

Smith03Jetta

06-09-2008, 09:54 AM

Is this photo indicitative of your plates or do you use 3 single neutral plates in between your pos - neg for a total of 9 pieces of stainless steel plate? AND... are your neutral plates joined by metal or are they not. Do you have a photo?

Mr. Smith

Ronjinsan

06-09-2008, 10:03 AM

Pretty much exactly what you have there! I have a gap of 2mm between the plates! the netral plates are seperate and dont join or touch anything else in the bottle except rubber spacer!

Smith03Jetta

06-09-2008, 11:36 AM

Ronjinsan,

I think I'm following you but I still have my doubts. I'll use Plastic bolts. Which of the following two configurations is the way to go?

Legend...
+ = Positive Plate
N = Neutral Plate
- = Negative Plate
* = Stainless Washer
| = Plastic Washer

Do I use this configuration
+|N|N|N|-|N|N|N|+

or This configuration.

+*+|N*N|N*N|N*N|-*-|N*N|N*N|N*N|+*+

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-09-2008, 12:32 PM

Oh, I forgot to post a tip for all you experimenters... When working with the stainless plates and bolts, put bandaids on the pads of your index finger and thumb of your right hand. Put another bandaid on the second joint of your index finger. I've got numerous paper cuts on my fingers from burrs on the nuts and bolts and accidental slips of the plates etc. Wearing rubber gloves doesn't seem to work very well. All they do is make my hands sweat and get talc powder all over my work.

If you don't put bandaids on your fingers while you are handling the stainless, they you will probably need to do it after you are finished.

I haven't worked with stainless steel before. I've worked for years with regular steel and it will not cut your hands up like stainless does.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-09-2008, 03:08 PM

Ok, I admit that dealing with PVC Pipe is getting old. It's difficult to get the plates in and sealed tightly. I'm curious as to what other kinds of containers are out there that I can use. I've attached some photos of different types of containers. Can anybody comment on them? I especially like the specs of the Pelican cases. They have heat resistance up to 200F. They are water and air tight. Easy open and close with dual clamps.

I've also seen HHO generators made from Water Filters.

Pelican cases
Otterbox cases

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-09-2008, 06:02 PM

The first vehicle road test I performed was at interstate speeds of 75 to 80 mph with the AC running full blast. Some stop and go until I hit the Interstate. It was 95 degrees F outside. I added 300lbs extra weight in addition to my 180 lbs to simulate a full car load of people. I got 31.5 mpg on 100 miles test run.

My car is a 2003 VW Jetta 2.0 liter 5 speed. I expect it to get 25 to 26 mpg under those conditions. This car is EPA rated for 24 mpg around town and 31 on the highway.

The Old EPA Standards for Highway Mileage (prior to 2008).

To calculate In-Town Mileage...
The car or truck is driven for 11 miles and makes 23 stops over the course of 31 minutes, with an average speed of 20 mph and a top speed of 56 mph.

To calculate Highway Mileage...
The vehicle is driven for 10 miles over a period of 12.5 minutes with an average speed of 48 mph and a top speed of 60 mph.

Both fuel economy tests are performed with the vehicle's air conditioning and other accessories turned off. In addition, I used to work for Volkwagen. They have daytime running lights. VW got an exhemption to disable the daytime running lights on their MPG tests so the extra alternator usage would not affect the MPG test results.

By the way, 2008 EPA Standards call for testing at speeds of up to 80 mph. This does bad things to the MPG numbers of ALL cars including Hybrids. It doesn't mean that cars get less MPG. It just mirrors real world expectations. Expect the same engine this year to be rated at 12 or 15 percent less than last year.

I ran my road test with the AC on 100% of the time and at average speeds of 75 mph and top speed of probably 85. Based on the 2008 EPA Standards, I should have gotten the following (without the HHO generator going). I should subtract 12% for the extra speed and 10% for the AC usage. That comes up to 24.18 mpg. Instead I got 31.50 mpg. That's a 30.27% increase in Efficiency.

I intend to use the EPA method for determing fuel mileage on my next test runs... It may be a week or so. I'm ordering some plastic all-thread rod from Fastenal. It won't be in til next monday. I also am looking at a sealable case like the ones listed in the above post.

How 'bout those Apples.

Mr. Smith

Ronjinsan

06-10-2008, 02:39 AM

57 Sorta like this! I would take a picture but its in the car and dark when I leave, also dark when I return so maybe at the weekend, but this is the config anyway. I dont use the plastic bolts I cabletie mine together! Makes it easier to put together and strip! Cheers.

Smith03Jetta

06-10-2008, 09:11 AM

Got to get me some Sodium Hydroxide. I have had my doubts about getting Potassium Hydroxide because of it's poison and highly caustic properties.

Ronjinsan, have you measured your output with this new configuration?

Mr. Smith

Ronjinsan

06-10-2008, 10:32 AM

Very difficult as my system is running under a vacuum which changes the output all the time but I would guess from experience about 1.5ltrs without vacuum. I use sodium Hydroxide in rain water and it stays very clean and healthy looking LOL

Smith03Jetta

06-10-2008, 10:59 AM

It never occurred to me to use Zip-ties as insulators. I've got loads of zip ties.

I did hear back from a gentleman at South-Pak. He does not think his cases will hold up to the temps that the device will be operating in. Does anybody know what the temp is under the hood of a car that has been running for a while? I'm sure the temp rises after the car is shut off... No air moving.

I heard some interesting information today. It seems that the maintenance man where I work told me of a shop in town that is doing HHO conversions. I plan to stop by there at lunch today and check them out. I'll report back what I find out.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-10-2008, 02:19 PM

I'm back from lunch. There is a shop in Calhoun, GA that is installing Water4Gas HHO systems in vehicles. He is using the Glass Jar method but is still getting good MPG results. He was installing a unit while I was there and 3 of his customers were there hanging out watching. He isn't using Flash Arrestors or Bubblers on his installs.

He was using Stainless All-thread for his electrodes. All his wiring was outside the Ball Quart Jar.

He commented that he was getting the best results on PT Cruisers out of all the vehicles he has worked with. He claimed 65 Mpg.

One of his buddies that was there showed me under the hood of his Chevy Pickup. He uses a 14 dollar Water Filter case from Tractor Supply for his HHO tank. He's getting 17to 20 mpg instead of 12mpg (I think that's what he said.) Again no bubbler or arrestor. He's using Heavy Stainless plates for electrodes. I took a photo.

Please, no negative comments about this operation... I plan to visit them some more and share what I learn from my experiences. I don't want to have any problems...

On another note, I stopped by my local gun shop to look at heavy duty cases like I mentioned on another post. Here's a couple photos of what I found... comments welcome. Vanguard makes the case in the photos. It is a Supreme 27F - 11" x 9.88" x 6.75". It costs about $55.00 on Ebay. $69.00 in my local gun store. Even if it won't work for an HHO Generator, it's one heck of a pistol case.

Oh, another note. If you look closely at the 4th photo, you will see that around the interior rim of the case, it's pre-drilled for mounting plates, circuit boards etc. That could come in extremely handy. My gut says buy one of the cases and test it out. If it doesn't work, I've got two pistols that are dying to get it that box and go for a ride in my hybrid jetta.

Mr. Smith

gte

06-10-2008, 04:51 PM

It looks heavy duty?

I admire how you are doing things, I think on the other hand I want to experiment in the garage and see how to get the best hho production, and then worry about cases, so I'll be keenly following this post as I'll need this info later.

Underhood temps easily eclipse coolant temps of 210F, and you are right, when the car rests at a stop after getting up to NOT, it will spike much higher, which is what causes hydralock.

gidrew

06-10-2008, 06:13 PM

I used a 4" pvc pipe and ran a small pump to a cooling line to the front of the truck. I just took a piece of copper tubing and coiled it in front of my electric fan so it will get airflow past it when I'm at a red light. I would post pics but I dont have a camera. If I can borrow my neighbours camera I will show you what I did. I run it in the city almost all the time and check it every few times I get out to see how everything looks. No complaints so far. And it stays cool. On the highway I bet my temp doesn't hit 100-110 F. So the PVC works fine. If you dont want to use pvc, use a grey electrical box. They have a higher heat rating. Normal elec. conduit has a rating of 90'C so it can handle higher temps. I know you get more production from a higher temp water, but I would rather have lower production, and not have stuff melt.

AudiA4_18T

06-10-2008, 11:40 PM

hey pardon my igonorance but what Im putting together here is the dilemma of production vs. heat? When production goes up, heat does also but to the point where your melting fuses?

Is there a way to keep the generator behind the grill to cool it?

Also, is there a diagram of everything you did? Im pretty mechanically inclined but im only getting bits and pieces and its hard for me to see the complete view here

Ronjinsan

06-11-2008, 05:09 AM

I think you summed up the problem of HHO generation in one sentence here! Start fresh and use a sensible gap between your plates ie 1.6 to 2mm. Use fresh water (rain if possible) with NO electrolyte. Study the bubble production.....change the pos and neg around and check again, make sure your negatives are producing most. Next add a tiny bit of electrolyte and mix well. If you have an ampmeter at this point it helps! If not just touch the battery terminal with the bare wire and see what sort of spark you get. Keep adding electrolyte and testing until the spark starts to get a bit too violent ie a flash crackle type. Now its time to try it out. Having measured the amount of electrolyte you used as you added it you will be able to do this again if its too much, next time round less electrolyte. Remember watch the spark its a good indicator of amps! Cheers:D This is the non-tech common sense approach for garage use LOL

Smith03Jetta

06-11-2008, 09:35 AM

Ok, changed plans...

I looked at the plate design Ronjinsan recommended and determined that I could put that plate design in a smaller water jacket and still get the job done. Remember, I'm driving a Volkswagen Jetta with very little room under the hood for add-ons. That's why I was doing my mpg testing with the HHO generator in the passenger floorboard.

I did some measurements and determined that even though the nice plastic cases would be easy to maintain and look cool, I couldn't find room under my hood to put the case short of removing my air filter system. No room under the grille either.

I went to Tractor Supply and purchased a water filter case that is long and slender but will still hold the plates as configured by Ronjinsan. I put the plates together with Zip-ties and used stainless aircraft cable as feeds to the plates. I threaded the plastic lid for the electrode posts. This design was the most simple to build so far and I had it built, installed and working by 1am this morning. Needless to say, i didn't get much sleep.

To get it to fit, I removed the windshield wiper fluid reservoir and cut a hole in the sheet metal below the reservoir so the filter housing would slide down into the hole. I lined the jagged steel with a rubber hose and zip-tied the rubber hose (Grommet) in place so it would protect my water filter housing. I used a sawzall to cut out the sheet metal. Cut up a perfectly good car? Some things you just need to do in the name of $cience. There is approximately 2 cubic feet of empty, unaccessable space below the reservoir. It was neccessary for me to access it.

I messed up my last in-dash switch because of my overheating problem with my last generator. The switch works but the indicator light will not come on that tells me the device is on or not. I will need to purchase a new switch the next time I'm in the auto parts store.

I drove 30 miles to the office this morning. I pulled the in-dash switch out of the dash about half way to the office and felt the wires. They were not warm. After 30 miles, the wires were slightly warm but nothing to worry about. The water filter tank was not hot either. I think I've solved the amperage problem. I'm getting a steady stream of bubbles in my bubbler tube. Definitely not as many as I was getting with my over-amping generator but I think it will do for now until I get some sodium hydroxide and clean and replace the water in my tank.

I have some photos of my latest installation for you to see and comment on. The first photo is not my HHO generator. It's the one I saw yesterday on a Chevrolet pickup truck. As you can see, the wiring is different. I left the red vent button on mine so I can relieve pressure if I want to.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-11-2008, 09:41 AM

One more photo of my fuse box. I'm using an add-a-circuit available at any auto parts store. It allows you to add a new fused circuit inside the fuse box.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-11-2008, 10:03 AM

...change the pos and neg around and check again, make sure your negatives are producing most...

How do you "make sure your negatives are producing most"? You can't switch your wires around and make the negative posts start producing more. When you switch your pos and neg wires around, they keep their polarity. You are just moving the negative to the outside plates instead of the inside plates.

Mr. Smith:confused:

Ronjinsan

06-11-2008, 10:40 AM

Its a habit I have after connecting wrong a couple of times! Now I do a physical check to see that my negs are kicking out the most before I start adding electrolyte! You can see the difference straight off when using neutrals... try it!

Ronjinsan

06-11-2008, 10:48 AM

Really nice container Mr Smith. Why are you still going to the top instead of pulling a vacuum? Whatever my bottle puts out got doubled since I connected to the manifold. I was also sceptical at first but it really works. I even tried a dual output, one to the air intake and one to the manifold with a valve in line, but nothing I have tried beats the direct approach. You need a large bubbler with a one way valve though, otherwise the deceleration process tends to suck the water out of the bubbler. All the best Mr Smith.... I love your dedication! :D You will definately get the results because to you, as it is to me, this is a challenge!:) Oh the other thing was errrr your Positive wire looks a bit thin? I may be wrong! The pictures look different.

gte

06-11-2008, 11:09 AM

I guess I'll post this in here, since it was brought up

Why are the neutral plates needed? Are they there just to act as a resistor? So you can drop the voltage down to 2 or 3 volts?

If this is the case, it would imply that most of the hho production would be in between those plates and the plates that are closer to the outer portion would be much less efficient, is this correct?

Smith03Jetta

06-11-2008, 12:42 PM

Oh, you mean Negs as in (Plates that are supposed to be NEGS according to your diagram).

Oh, I answered a Private Message offline and thought I'd share the tidbit of information.

The only O2 sensor I pulled out on my Jetta was the one closest to the engine. I've run 200+ miles since then and no Check Engine Light.

I decided to leave the one in behind the Catalytic Converter. I gave practically no thought to it (and did not research it) but intuitively figured that the last sensor may need to get an accurate measurement of the final exhaust measurement.

I did get a scare, however... When I first got started with this experiment, my CEL came on. I took it to AutoZone and they scanned my codes for free. He told me (handed me a printout) that it was caused by either a low coolant level or a bad coolant switch. I checked my coolant level. It was fine. I re-seated the connections and it went away. Nothing to do with the engine or O2 sensors or emissions systems.

I'm thinking about having an emmissions test done on my car if this generator works out. I'm curious to see the results. I used to work at the local VW dealership. I'm sure they would do a test for free for me.

So far, i haven't spent very much of my Federal Economic Stimulus Check. I've got all my reciepts. I've spent less than $200.00 total for all 4 of my experiments

First experiment - cost $0.72 (Distilled Water)
Second Attempt - cost $65.00
Third Attempt - cost $100.00
Fourth Attempt - cost $22.00

I probably have $30.00 of unused material laying around my workspace. It's not easy to purchase exact lengths of hose and you will always come out with extra fittings if you plan to do any experimentation. I've got some extra stainless bolts, a lot of plastic washers etc.

I did take each of my old experiments apart and clean the stainless steel plates with Vinegar before re-using them. That saved me some money.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-11-2008, 12:55 PM

The reason why I haven't put it directly into my aluminum intake is because I have not yet had time to find a good checkvalve. As you can see from my photos, I'm using a cheap $4.00 squeeze primer pump from a boat gas container as my checkvalve. It keeps the water from my bubbler from flowing out back into my HHO generator when I let off the gas petal. That was a real problem before I put in the "Checkvalve". I will attempt the intake manifold thing at a later date. I'd like to see what kind of results I get with this type of setup first.

In response to the neutral plate setup... I'm getting much more bubbles off the negative plates than the rest. Yes, I said negative plates (PLURAL) I had trouble setting my 9 plate design up and keeping the negative wire from touching the neutral plates. I turned two negative plates around facing each other and ran my neg wire inside the two neg plates and had plenty room to connect them inside the 7/16" space. I'm using Ronsanjin's neutral design but just added an extra negative plate to my setup out of engineering frustration. I don't have a stainless welder and I dont have wiring tabs off the edge of my plates yet.

I read some interesting thing and downloaded an interesting PDF on the website: http://www.mindstrain.com . This guy is getting some pretty good HHO results in his S10 Chevy truck. He's using a microwave safe tupperware container in the bed of his truck.

Mr. Smith

Ronjinsan

06-11-2008, 02:51 PM

Tip...if I may! Try using SS pop rivets....I use them a lot. Little more expensive but easy peasy to work with! Also 2 Negs in the middle is also OK but I found 1 neg working on both sides was more efficeint! Cheers!

Smith03Jetta

06-12-2008, 09:24 AM

Thanks for the tip on the SS pop rivets. I have about 1000 aluminum pop rivets on my workbench but not a single Stainless one in the shop. I use Aluminum on stuff I normally work on because they are easy to drill out. Will now need to pick up some SS ones.

Here's the information on my car from http://www.fueleconomy.gov

All I have to say is WTF? They've updated all the information to meet 2008 standards and my car is supposed to get an average of 24 mpg. Makes me extremely happy to have scored 31.50 mpg on my first MPG test.

AND I QUOTE

2003 Volkswagen Jetta
Fuel Economy

We have revised the 1985-2007 MPG estimates to make them comparable to the new 2008 MPG estimates!

Fuel Type Regular
MPG (city) 21
MPG (highway) 29
MPG (combined) 24

Fuel Economics
Cost to Drive 25 Miles $3.53
Fuel to Drive 25 Miles 1.04 gal
Annual Fuel Cost $2120

* Based on 15000 annual miles and a fuel price of 3.39 per gallon.
Fill-up cost and the distance you can travel on a tank are calculated based on the combined MPG and the assumption that you will re-fuel when your tank is 10% full.

Climate Change
Annual Greenhouse Gas Emissions* = 7.70 tons

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Size Class Compact Cars
Engine Size (liters) 2
Cylinders 4
Transmission Manual 5-spd
Drive Front-Wheel Drive
Gas Guzzler no
Turbocharger no
Supercharger no
HydrogenHydrogenOxygen Generator no
Passenger Volume 87ft3 (4D)
Luggage Volume 13ft3 (4D)
Additional Engine Characteristics NA

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Annual Fuel Costs and Greenhouse Gas Estimates are based on 45% highway driving, 55% city driving, and 15000 annual miles.

Assumed Fuel Prices:

Regular: 3.39
Premium: 3.61
Diesel: 4.06
CNG: 1.65
Electricity: 0.08 per kilowatt hour
E85: 2.40
LPG: 2.10
GHG-Greenhouse gas emissions expressed in CO2 equivalents. Estimates include the full fuel cycle and exclude vehicle manufacture. (U.S. Department of Energy, GREET Model, Argonne National Laboratory)

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-12-2008, 09:45 AM

My latest generator is working fine. After driving 30 miles to work this morning, I popped the hood and handled the wires and housing. Everything was cool to the touch and bubble production was pretty nice. The engine ran pretty nice.

I did buy some gasoline yesterday after I completed about 300 miles over the last 4 days. I can't say that my MPG is an accurate measurement because the Gen III PVC Pipe Generator that I had in my car was not working very well. It was melting wires and overamping. I did not run it very much. I'll say about half the time... I did get 66 miles of production out of my latest generator on that 300 miles. My MPG calculated at the pump was 31.

Since the latest generator made from a house water filter housing seems to be working fine (almost), I will be able to do an accurate MPG test finally. I've got 48 miles on this tank so far so I'll let you know my latest numbers in a couple hundred miles or so.

I did notice one problem yesterday. I took the canister out to show some of my friends and noticed that the stainless steel cable that I used to feed my electrode plates is not good quality stainless. The portion of the cable that sticks out above the water level has rusted. Some of the rust has settled in the bottom of my water filter canister. I'll need to replace that cable ASAP. I'm now looking for a suitable replacement. I'll probably make some strap from some 14 gauge stainless steel sheet metal that I've got in my shop.

My check engine light came on again this morning but I think it may be the same problem I had last week with my coolant reservoir sensor. I'll get the code checked to make sure it's not my O2 sensor.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-12-2008, 01:03 PM

I just had an idea. If VW, Chevrolet and some other Automobile manufacturers got an exhemption for "Tagfahrlight" (Daytime Running Lights) when the EPA was doing MPG testing, then they must significantly affect MPG. I looked up the numbers and it seems that they reduce the MPG on my car by as much as 1/2 mile per gallon of gas. That also reduces my overall HP based on the amp draw from the lights and the extra demand on the alternator.

Oh well, it only took me 2 minutes to castrate my Tagfahrlights. One snip to a specific wire on my light switch plug. If I ever want to turn them back on, I'll just repair the wire.

I have never liked the fact that my car has daytime running lights and I've just never done anything about it since I purchased the car in 2003. I've always wondered what I would do if I needed to sneak up on somebody at night.

This mod is not for everybody. The laws in some countries and possibly some USA States mandate Daytime Running lights. I suspect that if everybody disconnected the DRLs, however, that we could reduce Emissions by several BILLION tons a year.

An extra .5 mpg with one snip of a wire, how nice.

Oh, and for the skeptics, there's never been any proof that DRLs have helped to reduce the accident rate in cars. Motorcycles, maybe but not cars. I can tell you that Daytime running lights have almost caused me to get into accidents at night because I could see just fine when leaving the house and it wasn't until I was 4 or 5 miles from home that I realized that my instrument panel was not lit up. Neither were my tail lights for that matter. What if somebody running faster than me ran up behind me in the dark and didn't see my tail lights? What If? I've done that at least 20 times.

I took photos of the process for my VW Jetta. Can't help the rest of you guys with different cars. Google "Disconnect DRL (YOUR MODEL CAR)"

The process for my DRL Disable was as follows:

Push in on Light Switch.
Turn to Right.
Pull out on Switch. Entire assembly come out of dash.
Squeeze tabs on both sides, disconnect connector.
Look for TFL tab. "TagFahrLicht"
Snip associated wire coming into wiring harness.
Fold wire back so it does not touch anything.
Plug back up the connector.
Insert back into Dash. Check for DRL with emergency brake off (Emergency Brake temporarily disables DRL for some goofy reason but activates your BRAKE light in the instrument panel.)

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-12-2008, 01:08 PM

The rest of the photos.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-12-2008, 02:25 PM

I had the nice girl at AutoZone test my car to determine the cause of the Check Engine Light. It returned two codes, one was the cooling system that I've still got to get that switch replaced. The other stated that the O2 Sensor detected an abnormal Oxygen level. I half-way expected that to happen because the engine was running a little lean while I had the Over-amping generator turned off.

I'll give the computer 3 days to see if the CEL goes off. If it doesn't, I'll go to Radio Shack, warm up my soldering iron and make the device that will allow me to bypass the O2 Sensors.

Oh, I spent another 4 bucks on my project to replace the in-dash switch that got messed up when my wires melted on experiment 3. I got a blue one this time because they were out of red ones. Red is Volkswagen's standard in-dash light color but blue reminds me of water.....!

Mr. Smith

Jimbo61

06-12-2008, 04:08 PM

I am about to make a similar devise as your first attempt (Quart Mason Jar Setup), and was wondering how the wire coil electrode did for producing HHO. The setup I am going to build, for a trial, will actually have two jars running simulatniously with the gas output hoses combined. Will use distilled water / baking soda as electrolyte. What I guess I am asking was how did the wire coils preform in actual gas prduction?

Smith03Jetta

06-13-2008, 11:55 AM

Jim,

Frankly the steel wire electrode did not do well for me. I was just goofing off with that one anyway. It turns out that the Stainless Steel Aircraft cable rusted once I put it in the Water Baking soda mixture.

"The cable turned out to be galvanized steel cable, not Stainless...."

I tore my canister down last night and rebuilt it.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-13-2008, 12:42 PM

Ok, I'm not happy with the latest MPG test results.

Same exact driving conditions as first test. I got 26 mpg instead of 31.5 on last test. Should have been getting 25 mpg without any car mods.

I'm guessing the problem could have been caused by maybe two things.

The first thing.
The wires feeding my electrodes rusted and rust got in the water. I'm sure that changed the electrolytic properties of the water. I took the hose off the engine and did a liter/minute test and got 1/3 liter per minute. The tank also started running pretty hot. I took the lid off and steam almost burned my arm. The rusting wire actually melted into the acrylic water jacket a little bit. This was not a problem the first day I ran the device and got 31 mpg test results.

Second thing.
I started getting a CEL readout indicating a problem with my O2 sensor. I'm thinking about making an EFIE device to put on the car. I'm wondering if I could find some simplified EFIE instructions. I have downloaded the PDF document from Eagle Research. I'm not an experienced electronics guy and the manual is a little bit difficult to understand. Are there any Youtube videos out there to help?

Mr. Smith

AudiA4_18T

06-15-2008, 10:45 AM

Hey Mr. Smith, thought youd like to know this if you didnt already. The ECU obviously use the 02 sensor to modify the A/F levels in your ECU. The first 02 is the most important, but I believe your lucky because you have a narrowband sensor. This isnt that accurate so moving it out probably worked. The second 02 sensor does nothing really. Its for emissions, basically an on/off switch to tell you if your cat is working. So even if you get a code, these values dont adjust anything in the ECU.

Many people on here get AF controllers to adjust the values to get the best milage and not run rich, but its tough because our ECUs are very advanced. Your 2.0 engine is the most simple of the VW motors Id say tho so your lucky

Smith03Jetta

06-16-2008, 10:04 AM

(Personal Note:) I admit that I'm starting to get physically tired and frustrated with this project. I've got a modern, German Engineered fuel injected car with complicated wiring and hardly no room under the hood. I've stayed up late every night for 2 weeks working on this project. I'm sleep deprived and irritable. I feel like crap and I'm ready for this to be finished. I just want to get this thing right so I can start saving money on gas.

I purchased a FUEL/AIR meter at Autozone. It would not work. It went all the way to Rich and stayed there. My signal wire (Pre-Efie) is putting out 1.2volts. The air fuel guage is looking for a lower signal voltage. I'm pretty sure that something is wrong...

I built an EFIE over the weekend and installed it on my car. I've never built an electronic device in my life. I went to a second-hand book store and bought a decent book on Electronics so I would understand what a Resistor, Capacitor, Potentiomenter, etc. does. I had to practice soldering for a while to get it right.

Parts were hard to find. I went to 4 separate electronics stores to get all the parts. I found a 200k Potentiometer on the shelf of a store in Chattanooga, TN. They gave me two of them for free because they were so old they were not in their computer system. The Pots were made by RCA.

Youtube is like a public university. You can search for instruction on any subject and it's there. Tuition is free. And then you can watch Dancing Girls... Cool.

After building my EFIE, I noticed that it does not tune correctly on the 200k potentiometer. Just to be safe, I built another one and it behaves exactly the same. At least I'm consistant. It gives a definite increase in voltage but I'm unable to tune it the way I want to. Adjusting the potentiometer only changes the voltage slightly. I'm sure I've got something wrong but I'll figure it out sooner or later. Over all it's not bad for a novice.

The engine normally dips at idle. It will idle for about 10 seconds and then dip 100 rpms. Repeat, Repeat, Repeat... I noticed that after installing this device the dipping stopped. I also noticed that if I interrupted the signal from the O2 sensor to the computer completely, that the engine stalled out completely. It's possible that I have had a bad O2 sensor all along. I'm thinking about putting in a new Pre-Catalytic Converter O2 sensor.

The Volkswagen O2 sensor has 6 wires. The black wire (Slightly smaller than the other ones) is the signal wire. I tied into the wire where the wires go through the firewall/plenum near the interior air quality filter on the passenger side of the car.

My analog multimeter is malfunctioning. It's not calibrated correctly. It also does not have a digital readout so I can't really tell what's happening. I'll see if I can get a meter that will show me 100ths of a volt. I have a suspicion that the O2 Signal wire is putting out too many volts. I suspect it is putting out 1.2 volts.

Oh, here's a tip for VW guys. To clear the computer of Engine Codes, disconnect the positive lead from the battery. Either wait 15 minute for all capacitor voltage to discharge or take a jumper wire and connect the positive lead to the negative lead of the battery (POSITIVE TERMINAL DISCONNECED FIRST!!!!!). This will clear the computer's memory. I learned this trick from a VW mechanic a couple years ago.

The engine ran very smooth on the way to work this morning. With the EFIE on the car, I'll do another Mileage test this week and report back.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-16-2008, 11:31 AM

I mentioned to the maintenance guy where I work that my Multimeter was not working correctly. He went out to Ace Hardware and bought me a new one. That was nice!

Mr. Smith

bagrman

06-16-2008, 11:40 AM

What year is your car I have read where some of the newer ones have O2 sensors that have a top read of 1-3.5 volts. Most of the EFIE units I have read about adjust to the older ones from 50-550mv. Go to fuelsaver-mpg.com and look up his instructions for installation, it's pretty complete.

latr

Smith03Jetta

06-16-2008, 12:46 PM

Ok, I have been educated. I talked to my buddy at the VW dealership. He's an excellent Mechanic and knows all about Volkswagens. He informed me that on the 4 and 6 wire O2 sensors they run higher voltage on the signal wire. Instead of .xxx voltages, they return voltages in the single digits. I will have to play around with the EFIE now to get it working right. It wasn't designed to play with higher voltage outputs.

He said that an off-the-shelf Air/Fuel guage will not work on my vehicle. Duh, i figured that out on my own. Voltage range is way too high. In order to get one of those to work, I'd have to get a muffler shop to weld an extra O2 sensor bung and wire in an older O2 sensor with lower voltage output. That would not help me on my EFIE, however because that signal would only be useful for the AF guage.

Ok, now does anybody know the voltage ranges of an O2 Sensor like the one I'm dealing with? What equals Lean? What equals Rich? What equals Just right?

Mr. Smith

gte

06-16-2008, 01:41 PM

Your efie, if working correctly, should only adjust voltage a minute amount.

Almost all cars run a 4 wire or less sensor, and it's a "narrow band sensor" meaning that it outputs from 0v to 1v.

5 wire sensors are wide band sensors or 0v to 5v.

It oscillates between .4 and .6v under normal conditions. The more voltage, the richer the mixture is, the sensor actually functions by measuring the amount of oxygen in the exhaust based on a resistance or drop in voltage reading. Usually the 4 wire sensors have 2 white wires as for the heating element, and then a black wire and another color wire. One of those is going to be the input from the cars electrical system, and one of them will be the less than 1v output to the ecu.

I don't have my brain wrapped around this HHO thing just yet, but cars and electronics, I am a walking encyclopedia about :)

Ok, I have been educated. I talked to my buddy at the VW dealership. He's an excellent Mechanic and knows all about Volkswagens. He informed me that on the 4 and 6 wire O2 sensors they run higher voltage on the signal wire. Instead of .xxx voltages, they return voltages in the single digits. I will have to play around with the EFIE now to get it working right. It wasn't designed to play with higher voltage outputs.

He said that an off-the-shelf Air/Fuel guage will not work on my vehicle. Duh, i figured that out on my own. Voltage range is way too high. In order to get one of those to work, I'd have to get a muffler shop to weld an extra O2 sensor bung and wire in an older O2 sensor with lower voltage output. That would not help me on my EFIE, however because that signal would only be useful for the AF guage.

Ok, now does anybody know the voltage ranges of an O2 Sensor like the one I'm dealing with? What equals Lean? What equals Rich? What equals Just right?

Mr. Smith

grimr27

06-16-2008, 04:37 PM

what happens when you wrap aluminam foil around the sensor. ?? someone told me it would fool the sensor in thinking it was running hotter and then lean the gas out? is this true?

Smith03Jetta

06-16-2008, 06:09 PM

gte

06-16-2008, 06:33 PM

Mr Smith

I would bet the 6 wire is just like your standard 5 wire, where it is a "wide band" sensor, meaning that it as 5 times the theoretical resolution of a 0 to 1v sensor.

He is correct, normal a/f gauges will not, you'd have to get one designed for a wide band voltage range.

As far as getting an EFIE to work, I forsee you having to get the voltage output higher, as with it's original design you adding to a range 1/5th of your sensor.

If you have the kind that has the lm7805 chip in it, I believe that chip is configured to steadily output 5v, and if you use the fuel-saver.org setup, you can stabilize the voltage at 9v. Then you would have to configure your resistors to not remove as much voltage, including your POT, so that instead of adding say .1v to a standard narrow band sensor, the theoretical equivalent that you'd want to add would be .5v, since you have 5 times the resolution. Obviously that is not exact, but it'll get you in the ball park.

I know that VW uses a lot of Bosch parts, so I'm going to assume your car uses a Bosch o2 sensor

I can't find anything online with a wiring diagram, but most likely it'll be like this

a heater + and -

A sensor +

A sensor -

A sensor + return signal to ecu (this is your ~3.5v)

and I'm guessing either a reference wire for ambient o2 percentages in outside air, or a second return signal to the ecu

Mr Encylopedia...

Please give me some information about 6 wire VW O2 Sensors. I'm getting 2.3 volts on the sensor wire, pre-EFIE. 3.5 volts post EFIE. I'm wondering what the Top Voltage the computer accepts so I'm not overrunning my computers expectations.

My VW mechanic tells me that is normal. That's why off-the shelf Fuel/Air guages won't work.

I'm guessing a F/A guage would work if I installed a transformer to get the voltage down enough for the guage to work.

Mr. Smith

TRAVICO60

06-16-2008, 11:35 PM

Smith03, This is Jerry from Louisiana. I have been following your progress and others also. There is a guy on "You Tube" that has several videos of his O2 senser controller. He started off making a simple one, then kept advancing them. I am going to make his simple one first to work on my truck, which is a chevy 2005 V-6. His website is: http://www.freewebs.com/jhines2/index.htm He explains a lot in his videos. Just go to "You Tub" and type in "madscientist67". Start watching his videos. Don't get discouraged. You are on the brink of saving some real money, not having to buy as much gas. I am going to build the "Smackbooster" fuel cell. You can see this cell and what others are doing on another forum. Smack has a website and "You Tube" videos also. The link to the other forum is: http://hydrogengenerator.cc/viewforum.php?f=1 When you get there, just look for the discussion on "Smackbooster building and testing". There are links to his website. On his website is a link to his videos on You Tube.
I hope this helps. I start getting my parts for my fuel cell and O2 controller tomorrow. Later Jerry

gte

06-16-2008, 11:50 PM

I was turned off by the fact that he wanted $14 to ship a 1/4 pound item, so I decided not to deal with him, that is just weird

Smith03Jetta

06-17-2008, 12:45 AM

My last mpg test that I performed resulted in 26 mpg. I was not happy with those results as mentioned in a previous post.

I installed my EFIE so I decided to re-fuel my car today and run a mileage test using my EFIE 100%. At the time I refueled my trip meter showed 140 miles on my car. 33 miles of the 140 I was using my EFIE.

I noticed an increase in fuel mileage of 2.5 mpg on that 140 mile run. I got 28.5 mpg. My next test should show an even better mpg increase since it will be used 100% of the test.

To better compare my mileage to EPA standards, I intend to keep my top speed below 65 and keep my cruise control on 60 mph on the way to work. I can stay off the main highway/expressway if I want to. That will allow me to run 10 to 15 mph slower on my trip to work.

My MPG goal for this test is 33.6 mpg. That's a 40% increase over EPA mileage estimates. It's optimistic but achievable.

Mr. Smith

Stratous

06-17-2008, 12:54 AM

I am sure you will get the gains you want eventually. Hopefully with the addition of another cell into my diesel will give me better gains that what I am currently seeing.

Ronjinsan

06-17-2008, 03:55 AM

Smith03Jetta

06-17-2008, 10:58 AM

Ok, I really need some help. I now realize that adding voltage to the black sensor wire on my wideband o2 sensor is not doing anything to help me. It's possibly hurting my fuel mileage.

I may need to abandon my O2 signal manipulation all together and try another approach such as Map Sensor manipulation, etc...

Here's why.

I called Bosch Inc. and talked to one of the techy guys there. He gave me the link to the following website so I could better understand how a wideband sensor works. He told me that what i was doing with the EFIE would not have the disired effect. I'm illiterate when it comes to electronics so I'm hoping somebody like Mr. Encyclopedia can review the information and educate me now how to manipulate Voltage, Current, whatever... on the wires between the O2 sensor and the computer to get the same end result as people are getting with an EFIE on Narrowband sensors.

http://wbo2.com/lsu/lsuworks.htm

Mr. Smith

Stratous

06-17-2008, 11:06 AM

HI Stratous
How odd, maybe explain this one for me. I ran 2 cells for 2 days last week....very cool, lots of HHO but my consumption got worse! Go figure! I am back to one testing a new container again. Oh by the way, I bought an electrical (polycarbonate) box a bit smaller than yours and built the cells into it, put it on test and when I put it under a vacuum the thing a,most imploded! Surface area too big LOL ...back to the scratching board.:cool:

Its possible that you put too much HHO into your engine. We are still in the experimenting phase and have not figured out all of the effects. I know it is possible to put to much "fuel" into an engine, so I can only guess that its possible to put to much fuel + HHO in as well. The engine I am testing this on is a 5.9L diesel. I dont think adding another booster can hurt. I know most big rigs run about 6 boosters. The container I am using now is not polycarbonate, its just cpvc. Polycarbonate is incredibly strong and is good for temperatures ranging from -128c to 148c and has a tensil strength of 9500psi or 667.916 kilogram-force/square centimeter. Its very strong stuff.

Smith03Jetta

06-17-2008, 05:37 PM

Does anybody have the plans/diagram for a Map/Maf Sensor Enhancer or know where to download it from for free?

It looks like I wasted $20.00 worth of gas and $60.00 in parts on my EFIE that won't even work on my car. I really wish that somebody had written somewhere that it wouldn't work in a car with a Wideband O2 sensor.

Mr. Smith

gte

06-17-2008, 06:08 PM

Mr Smith

If your sensor matches this wiring diagram/explanation

http://wbo2.com/lsu/im/work-5wire.gif

then the following is true

Green wire - resistance based calibration (input signal part of factory calibration)
Red wire - non resistance based calibration/impedance pump
Yellow Wire - voltage sense/impedance pump
Black wire - output signal to ecu
White Wire - heater ground
Grey wire - heater positive

http://wbo2.com/lsu/im/work-NB.gif

Yellow - feed voltage signal
Black - output signal to ecu
White - heater ground
Grey - heater positive

Yellow and black are sometimes combined to make the bean counters happy.

This wideband is a combination of a standard 4 wire narrowband sensor and a pump cell. With the wideband controller, the circuit wants to add and subtract voltage and change current flow to get the exhaust gas that enters into the "diffusion" chamber as this page calls it.

The narrowband portion of it measures the amount of oxygen molecules in the exhaust and generates a voltage off of that resistance.

I was surprised at how complicated the circuitry was for this to be honest! Why did the Bosch rep say that it will not work? What's his name and number?

Ok, I really need some help. I now realize that adding voltage to the black sensor wire on my wideband o2 sensor is not doing anything to help me. It's possibly hurting my fuel mileage.

I may need to abandon my O2 signal manipulation all together and try another approach such as Map Sensor manipulation, etc...

Here's why.

I called Bosch Inc. and talked to one of the techy guys there. He gave me the link to the following website so I could better understand how a wideband sensor works. He told me that what i was doing with the EFIE would not have the disired effect. I'm illiterate when it comes to electronics so I'm hoping somebody like Mr. Encyclopedia can review the information and educate me now how to manipulate Voltage, Current, whatever... on the wires between the O2 sensor and the computer to get the same end result as people are getting with an EFIE on Narrowband sensors.

http://wbo2.com/lsu/lsuworks.htm

Mr. Smith

gte

06-17-2008, 06:27 PM

I found this

http://better-mileage.com/memberadx.html
( parts ordered from http://www.alliedelec.com )

And this, so the lower the voltage is (maybe by using a small resistor) the richer the ecu thinks the car is and will pull fuel accordingly

http://www.plxdevices.com/M-Series-Controllers/WidebandOutputGraph.jpg

Smith03Jetta

06-17-2008, 10:21 PM

That chart sure is interesting. It seems that if I tune my EFIE to take away a small amount of voltage instead of adding voltage it will tell the system that it's rich so it will cut the fuel down a bit to lean out the engine like I want it? No wonder I'm getting crappy mileage with the EFIE turned on... I'm pumping out nearly 5 volts... My last test that I'm really ashamed of I'm getting 28.5 miles per gallon driving like a grandma.

I don't know a lot about MAF sensors but I took a breadboard, a handful of resistors, some jumper wires and multimeter out to my car. I pulled the cover off the MAF sensor wires and identified the only wire that had varied voltage when i hit the throttle. The black wire... I kept adding resistance at 100 ohm intervals until the engine started to stall out at around 1100 ohms. I backed it off to 1K ohms and the engine ran fine. I noticed the voltage dropping slightly as I increased ohms to approach 1K.

I have a theory (because I can't find a MAF sensor enhancer diagram anywhere) that if I wire up a circuit board that has a minimum voltage of 2.5 volts and as the MAF sensor voltage increases because of more air flow (Higher Engine RPMS) I can scale back the voltage slighty to force a lean situation only when the engine is under throttle. See the attached graph for example of what I mean.

The green bars are the modified voltage values based on (Guessing) Ha!

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-17-2008, 11:31 PM

Just because I was curious, I went out and took some voltage measurements with and without the EFIE in place. The numbers don't make sense but Here's what I got anyway...

Without the EFIE turned on...
Idle = 900 rpm = 4.5volts
Throttle = 3500 rpm = 5.5 to 6 volts (Oscilating)

With EFIE turned on...
Idle = 875 = 2.37 volts = slight engine studder.
Throttle = 3500 rpm = 3.25volts

This tells me that the O2 sensor Extender mods that I did actually showed the computer an extremely lean situation instead of a rich situation like we've been told. Well, at least with Wide Band sensors anyway...

This also tells me that something on the EFIE board is causing a voltage drop. It's probably the R5 1k ohm resistor or the R6 200k adjustable Pot potentiometer (that doesn't seem to be making much difference anyway).

This does make sense that the 1k resistor would drop the voltage because it had the same effect on the MAF sensor when I did that test. I bet that if I changed the 1k to a slightly smaller Resistor, it would even out the engine stutter at idle. It seems that the transformer and Bridge Rectifier on the EFIE circuit board are not doing anything at all since the input voltage is actually higher than expected anyway...

Just to test my theory... I disconnect the ignition positive wire from the EFIE and it had no effect. The voltage still drops on the wire to the computer when the EFIE switch is turned on. Oh, this is giving me a headache... In theory this is what I want to happen but how did this accidently happen?

Mr. Smith

gte

06-18-2008, 12:12 PM

Mr Smith

If I read that correctly, maybe you did not build the efie to proper working order? Have you tested it as it would function on a bench, with an a/c to dc converter and a multimeter?

When the efie is turned off, it is supposed to allow the signal to pass through unaltered.

With the wideband, more voltage = lean, with a narrow band, more voltage = rich

Smith03Jetta

06-18-2008, 01:16 PM

I think I built it correctly. The problem is that the EFIE was designed to run in voltage ranges of .0 to .9. My sensor is putting out 0 to 5 volts. Way out of range of any EFIE built by plans or purchased.

Mr. Smith

AudiA4_18T

06-18-2008, 05:15 PM

Mr Encylopedia...

Please give me some information about 6 wire VW O2 Sensors. I'm getting 2.3 volts on the sensor wire, pre-EFIE. 3.5 volts post EFIE. I'm wondering what the Top Voltage the computer accepts so I'm not overrunning my computers expectations.

My VW mechanic tells me that is normal. That's why off-the shelf Fuel/Air guages won't work.

I'm guessing a F/A guage would work if I installed a transformer to get the voltage down enough for the guage to work.

Mr. Smith

Ok, yes your car has a narrowband sensor I believe so the A/F guage wont work.

If you got another bung welded in with a wideband that would give you SUPER accurate readings.

Also, there is a program called Lemmiwinks that is free. You can use it with an Ebay OBD2 cable to adjust feul trims.

That should be able to cover your feuling

gasmakr

06-23-2008, 03:15 PM

here are some pics from the water4gas EFIE setup
90

91

Smith03Jetta

06-23-2008, 04:32 PM

First of all, Thanks for getting the forum back online... I was missing it... Like I miss that $40.00 that I put in my gas tank yesterday. Like I miss a certain blonde from Broken Arrow Oklahoma... Like I miss Crack... Where did that come from???

I built a very similar device this weekend. It's not an EFIE as suggested in your last post but it is a MAF/MAP sensor enhancer. I'm trimming back my MAF sensor signal with it. I have one dial on mine. I use it for when I'm driving. When I'm stopping, I just flip off my switch and it bypasses my Potentiometer and runs the normal voltage with no interruption.

I REALLY, REALLY want to build a device that will maintain a minimum voltage on it's own and as the engine gains RPMs the device will trim out the voltage on it's own. I do want this to be adjustable but I don't want to have to flip switches. I shouldn't have to do that.

I posted a message on a Circutry forum and somebody suggested that this could be done with an OP AMP following circuit. I tried it. The OP AMP reduced my voltage so low that it dropped my output voltage to Zero when I hooked it up. In theory it should have worked. On my test bench it worked. In my car, it dropped voltage to nothing. I'm guessing it was because the AMPS were so low even though the voltage was normal 3 to 6 volts. I don't have a working AMP meter so I can't really tell.

Oh well, I'm doing a mileage test with this new device and I'll report back how well it worked... I've noticed that the voltage is very sensitive. I can reduce up to 1 volt while I'm driving (about 15-20%). After that I can sense an engine lag/power drop. It is possible to accidently cut the engine off if the knob is turned too far.

I did have a wire connector get too hot and short out near my fuse box this morning. I cut out the connector and replaced it with a better quality connector. I hope this doesn't happen again. The system is running fairly nice right now and is not over-amping. I attribute this problem to me using a cheap connector to connect the ADD-A-CIRCUIT to my HHO positive wire.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-24-2008, 10:38 AM

I don't really know how to best explain it but there is a sweet spot on the voltage curve of the MAF Sensor. The switching device that I put together to lower my MAF sensor signal voltage is very sensitive. I can feel a surge in engine power at a certain position on the voltage curve a few hundred millivolts below the standard output.

Here's my interpretation of this surge in power.

My MAF Sensor Signal Enhancer is set up to ONLY reduce voltage from my signal wire.

I believe there is a spot on the voltage curve where I'm effectively reducing the gasoline level enough to begin leaning out the Fuel/Air mixture. This point is where my engine is best set up to take advantage of the HHO boost.

I also believe that if I go much further on the curve I'm cutting neccessary gasoline from the engine so I lose power and start to slow down the engine. Going even further changes my engine timing to try to compensate for the loss of fuel.

When I turn the dial to this specific spot it's sort of like somebody else's foot is pressing on the gas pedal for me. In order for me to maintain the same highway speed, I have to take my foot slightly off the gas pedal.

It has the same effect when I switch my homemade MAF Sensor Signal Enhancer from the "Off" position to the "ON" position. I also notice a drop in power when I turn it back off.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-24-2008, 12:41 PM

wljohns

06-24-2008, 02:30 PM

I saw an utrasonic being used on youtube. His production changed and I think it was from 1lt in 32 sec with ultrasonic too 1ltr in 35-36 sec. Not a lot of gain. But arent some of you out there circulating your water. Does this agitation seem to help any with the release from the metal?

gte

06-24-2008, 02:56 PM

Mr Smith

The water does conduct electricity, so I'm a little confused by what you are stating and asking.

From what I've read, the oxygen is negatively charged and it is drawn to the positive plates and the hydrogen is positively charged and drawn to the negative plates, and that is what creates the dis-bonding of the h2o molecules. If anyone has anything to add or correct, please feel free.

I just had an idea. Maybe just a brain fart.

Let me theorize for just a minute. The electrodes only break apart water into HHO gas when the water is in contact with the surface of the metal. Otherwise it's not conducting electricity. In our conventional generators we are forced to wait until the bubbles rise for water to make contact with the plates again.

Molecular Cohesion is the culprit. Water by nature wants to stick to itself at the surface. That surface cohesion is what makes bubbles possible and water droplets bead up. It is also what causes the bubbles to form on the steel and grow in size before they are finally released and float up to the surface of the water.

First Question:

Is there something that can be added to the water that will reduce the molecular cohesion so more water molecules are touching the surface of the electrodes and will also allow the Hydrogen and Oxygen gas to release more efficiently from the electrodes.

Second Question:

Can the water be vibrated with untrasonic waves so that the bubbles vibrate loose from the steel plates quickly? Will this vibration negatively affect the gas production?

Third Question:

If we manipulate the bubbles in either of the following manners will we increase the amp draw on the HHO generator significantly. I'm guessing since more water is in contact with the plates more electricity is being conducted.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-25-2008, 12:35 PM

GTE,

Ignore my last response attempting to prove that water does conduct electricity. I misread your first sentence.

What I was meaning was this... The pinpoint of stainless steel that is being touched only by an HHO gas bubble is not conducting electricity through the water (Because it isn't touching any water). As soon as the bubble floats to the top, water takes it's place and conductivity resumes on that specific spot on the electrode.

Mr. Smith

spob

06-25-2008, 03:41 PM

If you have a flow of water across the plate, that will move the bubble off. Otherwise I'm not sure what chemical you could use that wouldn't disrupt or interfere with the electrolosis.

gte

06-25-2008, 03:42 PM

Ok, I see what you mean, any spot on the plate that is temporarily bonded to a hydrogen or oxygen molecule is also temporarily a dead spot on the plate?

gte

06-25-2008, 03:43 PM

You could try and oscillate voltage back and forth 30 times a second or so

If you have a flow of water across the plate, that will move the bubble off. Otherwise I'm not sure what chemical you could use that wouldn't disrupt or interfere with the electrolosis.

mneste8718

06-25-2008, 08:37 PM

Smith, I have figured out why your electrolyzer is getting hot and not producing as much as it should (considering how big your unit is)... this is what I posted on another forum:

I built the second model (5th prototype) using stainless steel wall plate covers and everything looks nice assembled but things get hot really quick. I've concluded that it is not the fault of the metal but rather the thickness of the metal. I put in 10 plates +nnnnnnnn- as opposed to the first model that is already in my car that uses only 7 plates +nnnnn-. This would lead to the conclusion that since 14 volts / 10 plates is less than 14 volts / 7 plates, the second model should run cooler at the same amperage. This is definitely not the case and the only difference between the models is the thickness of the plates.

And so I would like to suggest that if you are building a unit for your car, then you should definitely consider going with a thick stainless steel. I still haven't experimented with going really thick(as in thicker than my 7 plate design, I think its 1/8 or 1/16th inches thick) but I am planning on it to see the difference.

I just might use some of the steel left over from the 7 plate design and replace the wall plate covers that get the current, as in the ones on the ends...

Smith03Jetta

06-26-2008, 09:34 AM

Actually, the latest model that I've been running in my car is not getting hot nor is it pulling too many amps. It's actually a pretty stable system. I'm using Stainless Wall Plates in the following configuration. +nnn--nnn+

My case is a water filter housing with a clear acrylic bottom.

I'm using 1/2" wide 18 gauge stainless steel strips for supplying voltage inside the case instead of cable or wire. I'm separating the plates with zip-ties.

I could actually increase my temperature/amp draw even more to get more HHO production and be OK.

The problem that I've been wrestling with now is trying to lean out my fuel mixture. I've built a simple MAF enhancer and I'm using it now. The problem is that my VW computer overrides the MAF enhancer about half the time.

Baseline MPG for my car is 24 - 25 mpg. Latest MPG Results on a 200 miles. 27.801 mpg with normal driving. That's 14% to 15% increase. Half with AC running. Highway speeds of 65 to 70 on average back and forth to office. It seems that my MPG has dropped since I first ran a test using the Smacks Booster Setup. The best MPG to date has been 31.5 mpg using the Smacks Booster. I discontinued that one because of over-amping and boiling water and melting PVC pipe. Good MPG though!??? I was getting 1 liter/minute then. I'm sure I'm not getting that much right now. I'll check today and let you know how much I'm making.

I'm of the opinion that I could build another device using a double-stack of my current model and get good MPG results. I've finally figured out a low-amp, average yield HHO generator. The problem is that it's just not putting out enough liters/minute to make a significant difference.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-26-2008, 01:03 PM

Here's a link to a publicly traded company that is doing HHO on a commercial scale. I did notice that they will not discuss their products with people until they sign a Non-Disclosure Agreement. They also threaten to sue anyone using their technology.

http://www.hydrogenht.com/

Mr. Smith

mneste8718

06-26-2008, 03:10 PM

Smith, my little unit made of 7 plates gives me 35MPG (a 7-8MPG increase based on what I usually get) on the hwy doing 75mph, no a/c.

My car has a 2 liter engine as well. It's even turboed. It's a Subaru WRX. Basically my 300HP car gets the MPG of a sentra or something like that.

My car also has a narrowband O2. I have a wideband installed to check the AFRs as a result. An EGT gauge to keep the exhaust temperature in check. I have open source tuning software to tune my AFRs (which I haven't been able to use yet because my friend still has my ODBII cable). I think that after I tune my car, I'll be able to get up to 38mpg.

This is why I am trying to figure out why ur experiencing such low gains when you really shouldn't...

Smith03Jetta

06-26-2008, 03:41 PM

...My car also has a narrowband O2. I have a wideband installed to check the AFRs as a result. An EGT gauge to keep the exhaust temperature in check... ...This is why I am trying to figure out why ur experiencing such low gains when you really shouldn't...

I think you got the two types of sensors mixed up. Narrowband (0-.9v) is what most cars have and people don't have trouble with them. Wideband (0-5v) is what I have. You probably have Wideband too with Narrowband installed aftermarket to operate your Air/Fuel Guage.. Most AFR guages work just fine with Narrow band sensors. They do not work with Wideband sensors.

I'm thinking I could get a better output if I increased the size of my water container and took one of the neutral plates out. From what I can see, the water is instantly getting cloudy with bubbles inside my container when I turn it on. I can see the water actually making it's own current (Water Current) not (Electrical Current). The problem may be that I don't have enough water in my container for it to work effectively. When I turn on the generator, I can instantly see most of the foaming coming off the negative plates.

I'll try to get some photos/video of my gen in action so you can see what I'm talking about.

Mr. Smith

mneste8718

06-26-2008, 04:56 PM

I think you got the two types of sensors mixed up. Narrowband (0-.9v) is what most cars have and people don't have trouble with them. Wideband (0-5v) is what I have. You probably have Wideband too with Narrowband installed aftermarket to operate your Air/Fuel Guage.. Most AFR guages work just fine with Narrow band sensors. They do not work with Wideband sensors.

I'm thinking I could get a better output if I increased the size of my water container and took one of the neutral plates out. From what I can see, the water is instantly getting cloudy with bubbles inside my container when I turn it on. I can see the water actually making it's own current (Water Current) not (Electrical Current). The problem may be that I don't have enough water in my container for it to work effectively. When I turn on the generator, I can instantly see most of the foaming coming off the negative plates.

I'll try to get some photos/video of my gen in action so you can see what I'm talking about.

Mr. Smith

Actually, a narrowband only shows somewhere between 14:1 to 16:1 AFRs and I definitely do not have that hooked up to my gauge. My car in fact has a narrowband. The 'narrow' part implies that it does not show the full spectrum and that is the reason why I had to get a 'wide'band so that I can see the full spectrum of AFRs. Otherwise my gauge would be completely pointless because it would just start flying all over giving me false data.

And so you have things completely opposite and I know this for a fact cause i have tried it all. Only a wideband will work with AFR gauges and a narrowband will just make the gauge go crazy because most are not calibrated for it.

Now with your trying to remove neutral plates, I'll just say that it is a really bad idea unless you are supplying between 1.24 and 2 volts to each plate which I doubt is the case. Anything over 1.24volts just heats up the plates and does not increase the amount of gas produced. This literally puts a bigger load on your alternator and as a result makes your HHO production less efficient leading to less MPG...

mneste8718

06-26-2008, 05:41 PM

The reason you are seeing extra bubbles when you remove the neutral plates is that you are supplying current to all plates instead of just 2. This is at the expense of a lot of heat production and wasted energy.

tbhavsar

06-26-2008, 10:26 PM

this doc is talking about putting multiple cell in series to reduce heat and wated energy; please check this document; read from page 4 onwards.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/pdf.files/D9.pdf

Smith03Jetta

06-27-2008, 09:45 AM

I bought $25.00 worth of brass fittings yesterday and made a fuel line heater. I installed it last night. I basically cut the fuel line leading into the fuel injection rail, spliced in a couple extra feet of fuel hose and attached the brass fittings to the radiator hose with Zip Ties. I think that if I wrap the fittings and radiator hose with tape, I will get better heating. I don't know if this will make any difference or not but I tried it none-the-less.

Comments?

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-27-2008, 03:05 PM

I've got some more photos and a video for you. They will show you my current setup. If anybody would like to comment, Pros/Cons on my design, I welcome all criticism. Anything I can to to make this better will be helpful. Keep in mind that I'm considering building a case that's larger. I've also taken a couple photos of the fuel heater. I also wrapped the fuel heater in Heat Tape to help fuel reach a higher temp.

Here's the Video. Photos are attached separately.

http://www.youtube.com/v/PCDnz_vrX8I

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-27-2008, 03:07 PM

Two more photos.

Mr. Smith

Johnh

06-28-2008, 05:00 AM

Hi Mr Smith

Dont think I like the zip ties running horizontally between the plates it means the bubbles will have to run along the tie and out the side which will shield a fair part of the plate.
I am trying just a small flexible PVC dot glued on with silicone with just one tie around the whole bundle.
I am also not too sure about this whole method although I am using it. I have read in technical reports that a lot of current bypasses the nuetral plates straight from - to + heating that fluid. I have seen recommended sealing all the edges to minimise this. Of course this has problems with getting the electrolyte in between the plates and the gas out. I will see if I can find these references. I don't know how much was empirical testing and how much just the feelings of the experimenter.
Best of luck
Regards
John

Smith03Jetta

06-28-2008, 03:25 PM

Ok, I think I figured out what's wrong. I'm getting .25 liters of gas per minute. Not nearly what I need to make a difference in my fuel mileage. Back to the drawing board. I'm headed out to scour the racks at my local salvage and hardware stores.

Mr. Smith

mneste8718

06-28-2008, 04:25 PM

If you can, try plates that are bigger, I'd imagine if you double the surface area of your setup, then it will double its performance (hopefully)...

If not, try same size plates but thicker and put more electrolyte in it and see if you get stable temperatures at the higher amperage

Smith03Jetta

06-30-2008, 01:33 PM

Ok, here's the latest. I doubled the size of my water container. I put in two 10-plate arrays. I put in a new brass check valve. I switched to a glass container. Pulled the bumper off my car to reveal a decent hiding place for a large container in front of my passenger wheel well.

+nnn--nnn+
+nnn--nnn+

I'm still getting .25 liters per minute and pulling more amps. Water is clear but it's foamy on top like a good head of Guinness. I am still using Baking Soda. I have some Sodiom Hydroxide on my shelf.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

06-30-2008, 01:34 PM

more photos

Mr. Smith

airdude

06-30-2008, 11:28 PM

I just had an idea. Maybe just a brain fart.

Let me theorize for just a minute. The electrodes only break apart water into HHO gas when the water is in contact with the surface of the metal. Otherwise it's not conducting electricity. In our conventional generators we are forced to wait until the bubbles rise for water to make contact with the plates again.

Molecular Cohesion is the culprit. Water by nature wants to stick to itself at the surface. That surface cohesion is what makes bubbles possible and water droplets bead up. It is also what causes the bubbles to form on the steel and grow in size before they are finally released and float up to the surface of the water.

First Question:

Is there something that can be added to the water that will reduce the molecular cohesion so more water molecules are touching the surface of the electrodes and will also allow the Hydrogen and Oxygen gas to release more efficiently from the electrodes.

Second Question:

Can the water be vibrated with untrasonic waves so that the bubbles vibrate loose from the steel plates quickly? Will this vibration negatively affect the gas production?

Third Question:

If we manipulate the bubbles in either of the following manners will we increase the amp draw on the HHO generator significantly. I'm guessing since more water is in contact with the plates more electricity is being conducted.

Mr. Smith

It took a while to get to the end of this thread. But did not want to be redundant. I have been reading and watching everything I can to prepare for my first HHO gen. I had the same thoughts as you regarding the mechanical properties of the water molecule. reducing surface tension to allow fast release seems important to me. I was wondering about using a water wetting agent, like Jet Dry for the dishwasher. Don't know if that would hinder bubble production but I may try it.
I also plan to have a second bottle with a small electric pump to transfer a stream onto the plates. Don't know if thats practical or not.
What about spraying a coating of RAIN X on the plates. I do not think it is oil based and water sure does not want to stick to it. These are crazy out of the box ideas I know. But I am new so please make all comments with that in mind.
Thanks

Ronjinsan

07-01-2008, 02:40 AM

Hey airdude...its all about experimenting and sharing, Try things out and if they work, talk about it so others can try it too! I have found the best way to clear bubbles is by using a vacuum on the pot.....works for me but you dont have to use it if you want to try other things. Basically we all want the same result ie better fuel economy!

Smith03Jetta

07-01-2008, 11:13 AM

Ok, here's the latest. I have not modified my latest setup. I turned it on and ran it in my car instead. I have noticed that my engine wants to idle high in the 1750 to 1850 range when I'm slowing down from Highway speeds. That tells me that more fuel (Of Some Kind) is keeping my engine running at higher RPMS. I adjusted my MAF Sensor Enhancer to bring my RPMs down to normal levels when driving slow or at a stop.

I've heard that it sometimes helps to drive the car 50 or so miles to let the new water/plates level out on production. I'll check the production levels when I get home today. I didn't do any testing yesterday afternoon. I got a virus and I got sick on my way home yesterday and purged Top and Bottom from 6pm to 11:30 last night. I will post photos and videos of me hugging the toilet if anybody wants them...

Mr. Smith

howtomakeitwork

07-01-2008, 12:44 PM

thank you for such a detailed follow through of everything mr.smith

nice looking car too!

spob

07-01-2008, 01:26 PM

Airdude,

Make sure you know the chemicals involved with the wetting agents you want to try. Using electrolosis to form hydrogen and oxygen is what we want. We don't want the hydrogen chemically react and make some nasty byproduct.

mneste8718

07-01-2008, 04:23 PM

Smith03Jetta

07-02-2008, 03:10 PM

The High Amp Draw hypothesis could be correct. I'm running the following configuration.

+nnn--nnn+
+nnn--nnn+

SS Electric Cover Plates are about 2 - 2.5 mm apart. I used Silicon dots to separate the plates. I layed the plates out on a table and put silicon dots approximately the size of chocolate chips on each corner as shown in the photo on an earlier post. I then put plastic zip-ties around the assembly to hold it together.

They are hooked up Parallel.

<<<<<<<NEW PLAN>>>>>>>

I stopped by a local sheet metal shop earlier today. I gave them some dimensions. I ordered some plates so I could build the following setup to run in Series.

+nn-nn+
+nn-nn+

The positive and negative plates are 3.5" x 6.5"

The neutral plates are 3.5" x 6"

The extra .5" length on the pos and neg plates will allow for mounting tabs for my power cables.

My plan for this setup is to separate the plates 1/8" or 3 - 3.5 mm.

The Sheet Metal shop just called to tell me they had my order finished. That was FAST..... 1 hour turn around time. I guess with today's economy they are hurting for business and every small order helps... Total for all 14 plates should be under $30.00

Mr. Smith

Stratous

07-02-2008, 03:34 PM

Wow thats cheap. I called the local sheetmetal shop here and they wanted $29 per 3" x 7" piece of 304ss. I about choked on my coffee.

Ronjinsan

07-02-2008, 03:41 PM

The inside faceing side of your 2 middle plates is doing nothing! 8-) Oh by the way ......petrol went up here yesterday again to R10.70 (South african Rands) to a litre. Thank heavens I have 3 motor bikes too! LOL

Smith03Jetta

07-02-2008, 05:23 PM

I know that the inside facing negative plates has no action happening between them. The only reason I did this is because using wall outlet covers proved difficult to mount the negative wire, not having a mounting tab... I rivetted the negative wire in between the two negative plates so it would not touch the neutral plates. With this new sheet metal, that won't be a problem.

Ok, Here's my proof. I went to the sheetmetal shop and walked out with the steel in the photos. You can see that it's plainly marked 316 - 18 gauge. For you metric people, the plates are 1.25 mm thick. 8 plates thickness equals 1 cm.

Total out the door was $33.00 USD for all 14 plates.

I'll have fun putting this together. All I have to do is drill some holes for my wire connectors. I'll use GoJo Pumice Hand Cleaner to clean the Oil off the plates. This will also help me "Surface" the metal and take the shine off... I've got sandpaper and scotchbrite pads too.

I've also attached a couple pics of proposed setup. Which one will give me lowest Amp Draw?

I'll be using a glass container so I can use Sodium Hydroxide this time instead of Baking Soda.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

07-02-2008, 05:40 PM

One additional Photo. Shows plate configuration, without spacers.

Mr. Smith

s_barrett

07-03-2008, 01:04 AM

it is the current draw that is causing the heat in the cell, and i think it's due to the baking soda being added to the water. from what i understand, Stan M.'s cell was using high voltage spikes but drawing very little current. note that pure distilled water is highly resistive (10Meg ohm) per linear centimeter, but this will resistance will drop as ions from the electrodes go into the solution.
I'm experimenting with an oscillator that switches a transistor off/on , the current flow in the transistor goes through a coil, and when this flow is interupted by the oscillator signal switching from high to low thus turning off the xistor, high voltage spikes are produced. similar to how the starter motor induces the voltage needed to jump the spark gap in your sparc plug.
using a flip-flop circuit for the oscilator now, as i kept blowing out my 555 chips with these high voltage spikes , mitigated it somewhat with a snubber but the flip-flop ocsillator(made with smaller transistors) seems more robust. The frequency doesn't seem that critical, as long as its >= 20kHZ.
i will post a picture of the circuit after i'm back from vacation. the only thing out of the ordinary within same is a bi-filar coil which i wound myself onto a carriage bolt, using magnet wire from radio shlack, took about 15 min. to make it.

s_barrett

07-03-2008, 01:14 AM

watch out for sodium hydroxide, it can burn the crap out of you and blind you. i think it's best to get these things working with tap water, as it's the most convenient. minute amounts of flourine with come off the neg electrode though and could, after a long period of time, corrode your cylinders; baking soda (in the bubbler only) will act as a chemical scrubber and will relieve this problem.

ELECTR0N3RD

07-03-2008, 06:48 AM

wow, sir you sure are great at writing reports, where do you work?, lol, you sound to me like an undercover government agent trying to "disprove" this system, lol j/k nice work though, i would try not to use pvc and use abs. keep up the good work

ELECTR0N3RD

07-03-2008, 07:04 AM

Question... on your diagram above, does each symbol stand for a single plate? Or are you using Plate pairs separated/connected by washers?

PosPos NeuNeu NeuNeu NegNeg NeuNeu NeuNeu PosPos = 14 plates

Or

Pos Neu Neu Neg Neu Neu Pos = 7 plates

Mr. Smith
for this configuration are you using a total of 9 plates?, also are the neutrals connected to one another?

ELECTR0N3RD

07-03-2008, 07:06 AM

wouldnt the Neutral plates act as a capacitor of somesort and hold a charge?, is that how neutrals work?

Smith03Jetta

07-03-2008, 11:46 AM

Well with the screen name "Mr. Smith" you may suspect that I'm a government agent out to discredit something. I must assure you that if I was out to prove this stuff wrong and had govt backing, I would have a larger budget than my $2100 stimulus check and I wouldn't be wasting my time on a forum talking to you guys.

Oh well, Enough fun. My last name is really "Smith". I'm an IT professional working in the flooring industry in North Georgia, USA. I drive a 2003 VW Jetta 2.0 5 speed and a 2004 VW Touareg V6. I have a couple motorcycles. One of which I built with my own hands from raw steel.

Oh, I forgot to say that I have a 152 IQ. Not as impressive as some but impressive enough to make me notice the lack of intelligence in most people.

The first HHO system that I built had spiral wire. The second and third had plate pairs. The 4th system had single plates. This 5th generation model will have single sheets of 316 18 guage stainess steel. Each symbol = 1 piece of steel.

UPDATE:

I've ordered an Onboard Diagnostic Cable - OBD-II to allow me to hook my laptop computer up to my car's ECM. With that setup, I should be able to change my Fuel/Air Ratio the way I want it. It should arrive in a week or so. I'm really stuck until then. I'll use that time to build my new plate array.

I've also got the entire mechanic crew at the local VW dealership following my progress. I used to work there part time in sales and I've kept a good relationship with the mechanics there since I left. The factory diagnostic computer that they have will not allow updates to the ECM fuel Air setting so I have to get my own system.

The neutral plates are not touching each other or they would be 1 plate in electrical terms. Make sense? I don't think the plates do not hold a charge like a capacitor. They only operate as conductors of electricity between the positive and negative plates with the help of the electrolyte solution.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

07-03-2008, 04:55 PM

Update:

I've downloaded two free software applications to go along with my OBD-II cable that's on order. The first one is Lemmiwinks. It works on Serial Port Computers. It can be downloaded for free from the following link.
http://www.vwfixx.com/lemmiwinks.exe

The second one is just like Lemmiwinks but it works on USB computers that do not have Serial Ports. My Laptop does not have a serial port. It's called UNISETTINGS

http://www.unitronic.ca/uni/content/view/148/58/

Along with in interface cable this software will allow you do SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR CAR if you don't know what the heck you are doing.....

I'm going to do baby step adjustments to my settings until I make sure everything is fine. I'm thinking about putting my car on a dyno after I'm done just to check everything out. The local dyno guy charges $100 for 3 runs. The Revo guys frequent his shop on Saturdays. It would be nice to chat them up.

The settings that this software will adjust in the car's ECM are listed below.

Ch01 : Idle Speed Offset
Adjust idle RPM level
- Higher number: increase idle rpm
- Lower number: decrease idle rpm

This channel allows one to adjust the engine idle speed in steps of 10
rev/min.

Maximum possible control range : -1280 rev/min to +1270 rev/min

Ch02 : Fuel Tweak (Accel Pump); Increasing Loads
-This channel adjusts a fuel enrichment under load
-Modulates Throttle Response

This channel adjusts a fuel enrichment term that is proportional to load
rate of change and that acts to enrich full when the engine load is
increasing. This is equivalent to an accelerator pump function

Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Ch03 : Fuel Tweak (Accel Pump); Decreasing Loads
-This channel adjusts a fuel enrichment term coming off the gas or decelerating.

This is very similar in function to channel 2 but adjusts a term
that works to decrease fuel when engine load is decreasing.

Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Ch04 : Start Up Fuel Enrich
Amount of fuel on any start ups?
- Higher number: enrich the mix
- Lower number: lean out the mix

This adjusts the startup fuel enrichment term.

Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Ch05 : Warm Up fuel Enrich
Amount of fuel on start ups E.G. on the first start in the morning?
- Higher number: enrich the mix
- Lower number: lean out the mix

This adjusts the warmup fuel enrichment term.

Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Ch06 : Lambda Regulation
Controls how fast ECU adapts:
- Higher number: faster adaptation
- Lower number: slower adaptation

This tweaks a lambda regulation system's narrowband oxygen sensor
cycle time in steps of 10 milliseconds.

Maximum possible control range : -1280 ms to + 1270 ms

Ch07 : Additive Offset To Speed Limiter
Controls speed limiter in increments ok 1km/hr

This is allows one to adjust the speed limiter in steps of 1 kmh.

Maximum possible control range : -128 kmh to + 127 kmh

Ch08 : Secondary Fuel Tweak
Controls fueling at idle, ussually alters additive fuel trims
- Higher number enrich the mix
- Lower number lean out the mix

This adjusts the main fuel term.

Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Ch09 : Ignition Timing Offset
Controls timing in steps of 0.75 degrees, all RPM range is altered
- Higher number advances timing
- Lower number retards timing

Allows one to shift the ignition timing angle up or down in steps of
0.75 degrees.

Maximum possible control range : -96 Degrees to +95.25 Degrees

Ch10 : Primary Fuel Tweak
Controls fueling on run, ussually change multiplicative fuel trims
- Higher number enrich the mix
- Lower number lean out the mix

This adjust the main fuel term.

Maximum possible control range : -25% to +24.8%

Ch11: Unused

Maximum possible control range : -128 to +127

Ch12 : SEL Scaling (Turbo Cars Only)
Adjust boost
- Higher numbers increase boost pressure
- Lower numbers decrease boost pressure

This factor allows one to scale the specified engine load. The default
value comes set at the maximum value, so specified engine loads can only
be reduced with this adaptation channel.

Maximum possible control range : 0% to 100%

Ch13: Control Bits

Unused. These control bits affect engine idle control.

Maximum possible control range : 8 different control bits can be set
or cleared

Ch14 : Idle Torque Additive Offset

This channel allows one to raise the minimum torque maintained at idle.

Maximum possible control range : 0 to 255 (arbitrary units)

My car has 115 horsepower and 125 fp torque. This software can help me adjust my horsepower to 125 and torque to 145 with no engine mods. That's not neccessarily my intention but I just might take advantage of it while I'm doing my fuel mods.

Mr. Smith

rmptr

07-03-2008, 06:19 PM

Mr. Smith,
I've enjoyed your presentation immensely.
...and thank you for the most recent links.
Ability to tamper with current ECM's will be critical in HHO HOD implementation.

Never-the-less, I fear you may be slipping.;)

Current settings found within the ECM are undoubtedly a balance, determined by the manufacturer, of 'driveability' and economy.

Power is the result of burned fuel.

If you increase power, reliability will decrease.

Adoption of HHO HOD would be of no point if we needed to replace engines on a regular basis.

Skeptics are quick to point out that improved economy can, in fact, be delivered from any number of means including cautious driving technique.

Look forward to more info on your project.

Thank you.

ELECTR0N3RD

07-03-2008, 09:02 PM

I just tried the neutral plates thing and for some reason i can not for the life of me get it to work, I have tried many different set ups the most recent +NNN-NNN+ the neutral do not generate anything, am i spacing them too far apart possibly? they are about a quarter inch apart.

Smith03Jetta

07-04-2008, 01:31 PM

Interesting headline...

Biofuels are the cause of food prices rising.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080704/ts_afp/climateenvironmentbiofuelsworldbankusbritain

Mr. Smith

rmptr

07-04-2008, 02:03 PM

Yes, they have...

With govt incentives to grow corn for bio-fuel, harvest has not been sold into the food commodity marketplace, so price at the market of ALL our foods go up... Chicken, eggs, pork, cereal flakes, etc.

They had 'tortilla riots' in Mexico. It's still a problem.

Now the US flooding has taken a further percentage of land out of production.

It SHALL get worse.

Best

justaguy

07-05-2008, 09:33 PM

Electron3rd, from everything I have read 1/4 is a lot too far apart. Most say 3mm, that is just under 1/8. I think this is supposed to be a lot better if you are running neutrals. I,m just learning too but this is what about everyone on another forum says.

Smith03Jetta

07-07-2008, 01:12 PM

An observation in Miles per Gallon. I drove 500 miles this weekend in my VW Touareg SUV. It does not have HHO installed... Yet! On past trips, I've averaged 19 mpg. This has been very consistant. I've been happy to get that in an all-wheel drive vehicle that has a Gross Vehicle weight of 6000 lbs.

EPA estimates are 13 mpg in town and 19 on the highway.

I tried an experiment on this trip to see if I could get better gas mileage by modifying my driving habits. The vehicle has a MPG readout that gives instantaneous MPG as well as an average over 15 miles or so.

I removed the roof-top luggage rack/spoiler. That should reduce wind resistance a bit. Some estimate 1 to 2 percent.

I also dropped my highway speed to 65 mpg. I noticed that driving 65 gave me an average of 22.4 to 22.5 mpg.

I lowered my speed (Cruise control) to 64 mpg and my mpg increased to 23.1 to 23.2 mpg.

I didn't have the guts to drive any slower because I was getting passed constantly by cars driving 75 and 80 mph.

I concluded that if we drive a bit slower on the highway we can save a lot of gas.

I also didn't have to worry about getting pulled over by the cops on a holiday weekend for speeding. That saved me money too...

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

07-07-2008, 01:15 PM

One note. I put my new HHO plate arrays together last friday. I had to shorten them a bit to make them fit in my glass jar. I will report on photos and HHO results soon. Immediately after starting the gen up, I was getting about .333 liter a minute. That's better than .25 liters with my old design. I still hope to get better than that.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

07-07-2008, 01:56 PM

I have a question... I've got two plate arrays inside one glass container. I'm set up to run in Series.

When setting up a series, do you put both the negative and positive in series or is it best to put the negative plates parallel?

Mr. Smith

ranger2.3

07-07-2008, 02:08 PM

Thats a good question.

Smith03Jetta

07-07-2008, 02:09 PM

Photos of my newest generator.

You will notice that I did something funky with tie straps to get perfectly uniform spacing. I used only tie straps to get my spacing. I tried sliding tie strap connectors onto the main tie strap to separate the plates but it pushed the plates too far apart. I cut those off and used a tie strap loop to get my spacing instead. I used small straps.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

07-07-2008, 02:13 PM

More photos.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

07-07-2008, 02:18 PM

More photos.

I put some angle steel around the sides of my top compression lid because I had some leaks without it. The plastic was warping. I've had the plastic for years. It's part of an old salad bar that I picked up years ago to make cutting boards for my kitchen.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

07-07-2008, 04:05 PM

H-Power:

"Listen to Professionals?" Professionals tell me that HHO doesn't work. If I listen to "Professionals" I should sell my car and go buy a Gay Blue Toyota Prius.

I have a unique situation here, I drive a German designed car. Nothing works the way it's supposed to. Everything is controlled by the car's computers. It has sensors that monitor sensors that monitor sensors... To get the car to run leaner, I MUST change the settings in the car's computer. I can't put some resistors and stuff on signal wires and expect to get any results.

I don't care if I Freakin' melt my ECU. I have the money to buy another one. If you read previous posts, you will notice that an EFIE will not work on my car. Wrong type O2 Sensor. EFIEs were not designed to work on cars with Lambda Sensors.

I have already talked to the local VW Dealership mechanics Cory, Jorge, and others. They know what I'm working on and have already seen my HHO device in use. Not only are they willing to help me re-program my car's computer once my OBD-II cable arrives but they want me to help them set their private cars up on HHO if we can get it to work on mine.

Mr. Smith

Stratous

07-07-2008, 04:14 PM

Sweet Mr. Smith. You do what needs to be done to prove the dern skeptics that HHO will and does work. I post on alot of forums, I tell them that I recieved a 30% increase in MPG from 17 to 24 MPG on my truck. Thats the only thing I claim, that it worked for me. They inturn tell me I am lying or that its the "Placebo" effect. That I dont know how to calculate MPG. If very frustrating to say the least, when all we are trying to do here is provide information to help everyone.

Smith03Jetta

07-08-2008, 12:20 PM

I noticed something interesting. My plate configuration has a piece of stainless cable connecting my two negative plates underwater. There's a significant stream of bubbles coming off the cable shown in the attached photograph. It's sort of like an upside down waterfall of bubbles.

Mr. Smith

Smith03Jetta

07-09-2008, 09:28 AM

PlumbrBob came up with a design. He asked people to duplicate it to see if we get the same results. I obliged. I purchased a 6"x6"x4" electrical box at Home Depot for $11.00. I had most everything else at home to build the setup except for a fitting for the lid and a new box of stainless steel rivets.

I changed my pos and neg bolt locations for convenience purposes but the plate design is identical. I will purchase some Sodium Hydroxide today and test it tonight. I was in Tractor Supply yesterday and decided not to buy some Sodium Hydroxide. I thought the Drano I had at home would work. It said Sodium Hydroxide on the bottle but when I opened it I saw some metal shavings. I'm not sure if they were magnesium, sodium, aluminum or whatever. I did not test it, i just put the lid back on and put it in my cleaner cabinet.

I had a bunch of SS light cover switches laying around unused so I hammered them flat, stacked them together and cut a groove in them with my bandsaw. I then used some sheet metal pliers to bend each piece as shown. I connected the plates with Stainless Steel Rivets and Zip-ties. I used pieces from a rubber inner tube to seal the bolt holes in the electrical box. I reinforced the lid with a piece of salad bar plastic. Here are my photos.

Smith03Jetta

07-09-2008, 09:29 AM

More Photos.

Smith03Jetta

07-09-2008, 10:02 AM

Another Photo. I also attached a photo of something interesting that somebody on this forum may have some ideas for.

I was driving down the street one day and my vehicle almost ran over something in the middle of the street. I pulled over and got out to see what it was. I found 52 of these things in the street and in the grass beside the highway. They are stainless sleeves. The steel is 1/2" thick. They are 3.5" wide, machined to 2.5" inside, bevelled on the machined edge. They are 2+ inches long. I have not really found a good use for them yet other than really good desktop cupholders. I'm sure they are expensive bushings, spacers, sleeves or something from a job site but they are just taking up room in my garage right now.

Considering that we are experimenting with stainless electrodes on this project, somebody might be able to think of some use for them. They look like large heavy duty shackles used in medieval handcuffs. I did a spark test on a damaged one last night and the sparks indicate stainless or at least a very low manganese level and a high chromium level. They are also impervious to liquids. I have one damaged one because I was cutting it with my bandsaw and the blade went sideways while cutting it. It takes nearly 20 minutes to cut through one using a bandsaw and cutting oil.

Smith03Jetta

07-09-2008, 12:24 PM

This drawing is for Stratous but I'll put it here for everybody to see. I sketched this little drawing based on the stainless bushing photo in my previous post. It is just an idea. I'm not sure how THICK steel will behave.

I would probably be surprised to know how much these bushings/sleeves are worth. I wonder who to ask. Anybody on here care to venture a guess?

I think it would be interesting for somebody to put one of these in a lathe and machine some ribs on it to create more surface area.

dennis13030

07-09-2008, 12:43 PM

From the photos of these bushings, they look expensive. As for an electrolyzer use, they seem impractical.

lou

07-09-2008, 01:42 PM

Nice work Mr. Smith, One question what are you using to connect the negative and positive plates to the neutrals? I was unable to tell from your pics I really like this pic of your project.

http://i219.photobucket.com/albums/cc51/stickey_02/PIC-0094.jpg

Must be a nylon washer and bolt? My first thought.

Smith03Jetta

07-09-2008, 02:20 PM

I'm using two small plastic zip ties at each connection point. I take one small zip tie and connect it to itself making a loop. I then take another one and run it through the drilled holes in the plate and back around. I will draw you a picture of how to connect them. I think that a drawing will help. After they are connected I pull both zip ties real tight.

I hope this helps...

BTW, I picked up a bottle of Sodium Hydroxide a few minutes ago. I've attached a couple photos. It's hard to make out the second photos but the top line says 100% Sodium Hydroxide. I purchased this at Tractor Supply for $9.00.

Smith03Jetta

07-09-2008, 03:41 PM

Question for PlumbrBob.

What solution of Sodium Hydroxide should i use to get the same results as you. I read several posts but I've not actually got an exact number. From your thread, I'm guessing somewhere around 1 tsp to 1.5 tsp for the volume of water in your 6x6x4 container. That volume of water seems to be somewhere around 1.3 to 1.5 liters. Am I close?

Smith03Jetta

07-09-2008, 08:19 PM

I got to do a small test this afternoon before a thunderstorm cut my testing short. I filled my container with distilled water just to get the volume. 1.5 liters covers the electrodes 1 cm.

I poured the water back out and added 1.5 tsp of 100% NaOH. I mixed the solution until all NaOH disolved and returned the solution to the container with a plastic funnel.

I took the container out to my driveway where I have a workbench set up for testing. I hooked up jumper cables from my car's battery to the pos and neg posts. Based on the design of this device it does not really matter which is which. The plate array is symmetrical with pos on one side, neg on other with other plates in between.

I attached the jumper cables to my HHO device. I affixed a hose and readied my stopwatch and 2 liter gas measurement container. I submerged the 2 liter container in water, inserted the hose coming from my HHO device, hooked up my jumper cables to the car's battery and hit start on my stop watch once the bubbles started coming out of the hose.

I was not really happy. I didn't really get much more than I'm used to getting. .25 liters per minute. I also did not see sparks when I connected the jumper cable to the pos post on the battery. I figured that I was not pulling enough amps to do the job. That could be my problem all along. I pulled the hose off the container and looked inside with a flashlight. I was definitely not making a braggable amount of bubbles.

I decided to take the lid off the box so I could see what was happening. I added .5 tsp more sodium hydroxide to a small amount of distilled water, mixed it up really good and added it to my container.

I reconnected the power and the bubbles really started getting busy. I did a spark test at the pos battery terminal. I could see a red spark now every time I hooked up the cable. I noticed that a very low number of bubbles are generated on the positive plate. Hardly discernible at all. All the other plates are making bubbles like crazy. I added another .25 tsp of NaOH to the mixture and stirred it up. Total of 2.25 tsp of non-ground up NaOH. Round white beads...

I put the container lid back on and hooked back up my hose. I'm now getting .5 liters per minute. I'm also still getting a small red spark when I hook up the electricity. The alternator kicks in and the engine drops RPMs when I hook up the generator.

I then had to quickly disconnect everything and run for the cover of my home. Thunder, lightning and rain. Oh well, maybe I'll get the test completed tonight. At least I'm now getting a half liter of gas. That's the best I've had in a while.

Smith03Jetta

07-10-2008, 01:51 AM

The storm finally blew over. I went back to test some more. I added a little more NaOH. The water boils like I've never seen it before. Output never rose much above .50 liters per minute. Case temp never got warm. I decided to install in car and run it 60 miles tomorrow. I do not have an amp meter but the wires are not getting hot to the touch. I'll drive 30 miles and check the heat on the wires.

I disconnected the wires from my Glass generator and put them on this new one. I did not have time to remove the glass generator from under my bumper. That will take over an hour to remove the bumper and put it back on.

With this compact space saving design, I can build two cells and run in series.

I'm going to bed.

lou

07-10-2008, 01:58 AM

does the drain cleaner your using provide the percentage of SH is in it? We used SH flake ground it down added 1/8teaspoon to a quart it melted the fuse holder immediately. Any we think we're adding to much.

lou

07-10-2008, 02:14 AM

sorry should have read further down the thread...I see we're using same stuff. :o

rmptr

07-10-2008, 03:13 AM

lou

07-10-2008, 03:44 AM

Great work Smith!

Excellent report and really appreciate the great photos!

You da man!

...I think this design configuration is a Half Smack...

...........

Very cute new baby you got there Lou!

Best
I agree great work Mr. Smith.

And yes sir it a cute baby.....thank you.

Most rewarding is that it's my grandson :):)
He's now 3 :eek: seems just yesterday that pic was of me holding him.
He's 3 days old in the pic.

plumabob

07-10-2008, 06:29 AM

Hi Smitty,

Yup that looks almost exactly like mine. Nice work! As to the amount I am using. I am not exactly sure. I hooked it up to my corolla, then added distilled water. I slowly add 1/2 teaspoon at a time of pure NaOH until I hit about 12 amps cold. The NaOH I use is a very fine powder and mixes into solution quickly. This is while the car is running so I'm drawing about 13.25 volts. Give it a chance to run some, production will increase and get yourself an amp meter. It's a must have to keep an eye on things. You should be up at least 1 LPM.

Bob

Ronjinsan

07-10-2008, 10:24 AM

Why am I still sceptical about this one?

Smith03Jetta

07-10-2008, 10:39 AM

Well my car didn't blow up this morning on the 30 mile drive to work. The wires did not get hot. They didn't even get very warm. The box did not overheat.

I have decided (Based on recommendations) to get an inexpensive amp gauge to install in my car so I can monitor the amperage on the generator. A 30 amp gauge should do just fine if I'm only using it for the HHO System.

Once the amp gauge is installed, I'll adjust the NaOH level to get the amps up to where they need to be.

Other than the Overamping, Wire melting PVC Pipe booster that I built with no neutral plates, this one is putting out the most HHO so far.

plumabob

07-10-2008, 11:11 AM

Hey Rojinsan,

Skeptical????? About what ???? You calling me a liar???? I resent your insinuation. I am posting my honest results. I may be a lot of things but I ain't no liar. You are out of line! If you don't have something to add to the convo then point your finger somewhere else. WOW, You must be an expert in HHO production. Can we all see your degree?........... Guess not!

Have a nice day!

Smith03Jetta

07-10-2008, 11:28 AM

There are a lot of skeptics out there. I'm one. I don't mind mixing it up with somebody if they get on my nerves but let's try to keep it civil on the forum. We are all here for one purpose. Let's get this figured out and get on with things.

So far, I'm the only one (I know of) who's build a device similar to PlumaBob. I haven't got mine tuned in like he has. I will decide if PlumaBob's Design is worth it's Salt or not based on my duplication of his experiment. If anybody else want's to prove or disprove his design, I suggest they build one just like it. Everything needed to build the Plumabob design can be purchased for about $50.00

box $11.00
gas fitting $2.00
electrical plates $15.9
zip ties $6.00
rivets/bolts $6.00
sodium Hydroxide $9.00
Water $0.72

Plumabob, if there's a way you can post a Youtube Video of the gas production, I think it will go a long ways toward your credibility. If I get the gas production to improve over the next day or so to 1 liter per minute, I will video my experiment/measurement and post it for all to see. So far, all I have to show for my efforts is what I've reported.

Smith03Jetta

07-10-2008, 03:04 PM

I purchased a Sunpro amp gauge today. $21.39 including tax. Photo attached. I hooked it up and the gauge immediately bumped up to 12 amps. The light in the in-dash toggle switch uses a little bit of power on this circuit. I'll disconnect the light to get a more accurate amp reading on this circuit. I don't need the light any more to know that the HHO generator is getting power. The amp meter will do that for me. The little toggle switch shines pretty bright (Way too bright while driving at night) and also gets really hot to the touch. I'm sure it's pulling a couple amps all by itself.

Considering the light bulb, I'm probably pulling 10 or 11 amps on my HHO device.

plumabob

07-10-2008, 03:06 PM

:(:(:(I feel very insulted because I have to prove myself, now apparantly to the whole board, according to you, Smitty. Guilty until proven innocent! Is that how it works? I thought this was a nice friendly atmosphere to chat and to learn from each other. I'm not stating anything else then what I observed. Believe me if you want or not, I don't give a damn! My whole purpose was to help others, not to beat my chest. Ronjinsan has no problem everyone believing his 55+ mpg claim but I have to "PROVE IT". Well I won't! And just remember it wasn't me starting all this and pointing the finger and calling someone a liar!

daveczrn

07-10-2008, 03:20 PM

plumabob... please don't take offense of anything anyone says on the internet. You can take a persons questions very wrong because you don't get to see emmotion.

He is simply asking to maybe is if he is not doing something that you are. And that's why he's not getting the results he is expecting. I think your design is very promissing, as well you asked for other people to try out your design so someone is... and your giving him crap for not getting your results and asking you for some more information.

please what we are doing here there isn't a standard for. so everything is trial and error. The better informed we get the more efficent we will build our designs... Please any help you can give please do. If that help is just proving that your design does work then what is the harm for giving the proof.

Smith03Jetta

07-10-2008, 04:12 PM

Plumabob,

I'm sorry you feel that I'm asking you to prove your design. I'm not, I'm just suggesting that would be a really good way of making your case. Same goes for everybody else.

I believed you enough to try to duplicate your results. I'm having difficulty trying to make mine produce like yours but I really think that it will eventually work. It's better than anything I've come up with yet if that makes you feel better.

I really think we have something to prove to the skeptical world. My goal is to prove that this HHO Stuff works or that it doesn't. Other than that, I don't care. If my only goal was to get better gas mileage, I would just quietly scour the internet and forums like this one and take from the best and share my results with no one.

You guys have read my thread, You've read the good, the bad and the ugly of this project. I've omitted nothing. I've shared every detail that I can think of. If somebody asked for something specific, i either wrote the answer as best I could explain, took a photo or drew a picture to help get the idea across.

Right now I'm not satisfied with my MPG increase. I'm still not getting over 30 mpg. I know that there's one more thing that I've REALLY got to do to complete the project. I've got to lean up my fuel/air mixture. Most of you guys can do it by tricking your O2 sensor or your MAF/MAP sensors. I can't. I'm convinced that I've got to take an extra step and reprogram my car's computer to make it happen. I've ordered a cable from overseas just to make this happen. If programming my computer doesn't work, I'll give up on the VW and try it on some other kind of car that doesn't have the complicated electronic system that my car has. If that doesn't work, I'll assume this is all BS and quit.

Lucky for me, I used to work for VW, have some VW mechanic friends, have an IT Programmer background. I understand how one parameter can effect an entire system. I also have a backup plan if I really screw something up.

If somebody asks me to prove myself, I'll be happy to do so. I seriously doubt anybody will ask me to prove myself right now. I think somebody might ask me to prove myself if I start getting over 35 mpg.

I used to be a part of a forum when I was building my first home-built chopper. I received a lot of positive feedback and a lot of help from the other members. I also got some skepticism from PROFESSIONAL builders who didn't think my design would work. I took it with a grain of salt but I kept their skepticism in the back of my mind. I eventually got my bike built, rode it 900 miles to the national rally and showed it off to everybody there who had either supported me or didn't think it would happen. I even broke the cardinal rule of motorcycles. I let anybody ride it who challenged how it handled or how comfortable it was. I made believers of everybody.

The motorcycle made it to the cover of 3 magazines and won several bike shows. Nobody believed that this could happen on a bike that only cost me $5700 to build. In some shows I beat out bikes that cost over $30,000.00.

Anybody can BUY a solution. Not everybody is capable of making the impossible work on a budget.

I've attached a couple photos of my hand-built bike for your viewing pleasure. Maybe these photos will distract you a little and make you feel better all over.

plumabob

07-10-2008, 05:19 PM

Hi Smitty,

I am not here but for one reason and one reason only.......to learn and share..... Thats it. I observe and post. Just like my post on the O2 Extender. Worthless in my car but may be good in others and thats what I wrote. My MPG's keep creeping up and I'm now at 34MPH of about a 50/50 mixed driving. I am still trying to dial in my map enhancer but eventually may also need the O2 enhancer. I am experimenting like you and most of the others here and if I get my feathers ruffeled a bit because of a comment passed then thats my choice. My beef is not with you anyway, you just kinda got caught in the middle. I guess from now on I will just sit on the sidelines and keep my mouth shut. So much for sharing!

Over and out!

Smith03Jetta

07-10-2008, 06:01 PM

daveczrn

07-10-2008, 06:15 PM

Everybody has something to share. Keep on sharing. I would suggest that if Anybody has gripes with another person, they should use the Private Message function on the forum. That will keep the rest of us happy.

Aggreed... Plumabob your design definatly looks the best so far from what i have seen.. The way the N plates are it allows for the best cooling while still making HHO. I thank you Greatly for sharing your design. I have some testing to do before i start sinking money into this project for my own benifits and if things work out for me i will start with your design.

dave

daveczrn

07-10-2008, 06:17 PM

Smith i believe your not happy with your results because you can't tune your computer yet. All you have been doing is adding more fuel wihtout being able to remove gasoline from the equation. Once you do that i believe you will be onyour way.

dave

Smith03Jetta

07-10-2008, 09:23 PM

I did a new volume test this afternoon. I have a video on Youtube so nobody will question my results :)

I had 700 ml at 60 seconds. 1 liter in 1.3 minutes.

I did get an improvement by adding some more NaOH. I also hooked up an ammeter so I could see how many amps I'm pulling. I am pulling about 14 or 15 amps currently (No pun intended). NaOH burns like hell if you get it on you. I got one grain of NaOh on my arm. It took a while to start burning but felt like an insect sting. I immediately put vinegar on my arm (Which I had ready just in case.) No visible burn.

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hOAra5yLnwI"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hOAra5yLnwI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed> </object>

Stratous

07-10-2008, 11:02 PM

Nice, that should don very well on your jetta

HHOWolfen

07-10-2008, 11:46 PM

1/8 teaspoon is recommended for electrolyte in distilled water, upping the 'juice' will up the draw

HHOWolfen

07-10-2008, 11:50 PM

using sodium hydroxide at 1/8 tsp/gallon is good, upping that really ups the draw, melts wires, stuff like that, but really puts out the HHO. I am looking into using a solenoid with heavy cables direct from the battery, with a cooling system from either the smog pump, or a 12v auxiliary, using a wall anchor at the bottom of the plates or wire wrap, I use a double wrap, with cathode outside the anode

rmptr

07-10-2008, 11:54 PM

Why am I still sceptical about this one?

Well, if it's generating off all those neutral plates....

...I think it's a 'half Smack," is what it is...

Somebody explain I'm wrong, if so...

Best

HHOWolfen

07-10-2008, 11:57 PM

do we by any chance have a glossary of terms here? what is a half smack, or full smack for that matter?

dennis13030

07-10-2008, 11:59 PM

do we by any chance have a glossary of terms here? what is a half smack, or full smack for that matter?

I support this idea too. A glossary of terms would be nice to help talk the same lingo.

Smith03Jetta

07-11-2008, 11:23 AM

Well, guys, I'm definitely using more than 1/8 tsp of NaOH per gallon of water.

I'm using 1.5 liters of water and about 4 tsp of beaded NaOH. I didn't take time to grind it up first. I just make sure it dissolves completely. I'm getting .7 liters per minute and pulling 14 amps on a 12 volt system with the car's engine running.

I was a little confused reading my Ammeter so I called the manufacturer this morning. The tech support person says that 1 tic mark on the ammeter = 15 amps. The reason why I was confused is because on the SunPro gauge, the 30 and 60 numbers are offset quite a bit. Refer to photo. Mine is reading slightly less than the first tic mark.

Adding more electrolyte yesterday increased my output 200 ml per minute but did not increase my amp draw any noticeable amount. I think if I add a little more electrolyte, I will be able to get to the 1 liter per minute mark.

I think I have a reasonable explanation as to why I'm not getting quite the output as PlumaBob. I've got two reasons to be exact.

1. PlumaBob connected his neutral plates with SS bolts and nuts. I used SS rivets. The surface area on the bolts is a lot larger than the surface area on my SS rivets. Every little bit of surface area helps when it comes to gas production.

2. I also recycled some of my SS plates from a prior experiment for use on this one. I used silicon sealant to make spacer dots on one of my older designs. Some of the silicon got on my plates and even after I removed the dots, I'm sure that the silicon residue that remains on the plates is limiting the HHO production a noticeable amount. I'm not sure why I didn't think of this before... I'm planning on taking my glass jar design apart and using the really nice 18 guage steel plates to re-build the PlumaBob design.

If this ECU computer reprogramming thing works the way I think it will, I'll invest in one of the expensive watertight pistol cases I mentioned in one of my previous posts as a permanent housing for my HHO generator. I would really like more air space between the water and gas fitting. Also, since I will eventually be storing the HHO case under my bumper in front of the wheel well, I will want something that's strong, weatherproof, waterproof, shockproof, etc. I'm thinking $50 to $70 dollars is not too much to protect my investment.

cougar gt-e

07-11-2008, 12:06 PM

This is very interesting. What sort of gains are you currently booking?

Packer Fan

Smith03Jetta

07-11-2008, 12:17 PM

Gains??? I'm guessing you are asking about MPG increases.

I'm getting 29 mpg regardless of driving style, driving speed, Air Conditioner use, HHO Output or whatever. It's consistent. That doesn't really make sense to me. I'm guessing my car's ECU has just given up trying to adjust my fuel based on readings from my O2 Sensor and MAF Sensor. It has just set it at a certain rate of fuel delivery and said, "Screw it!" Basically my engine is running rich.

The car's default ratios are what I aim to reprogram as soon as my OBD-II cable arrives. I will be able to change the idle fuel ratio, the acceleration fuel ration, the deceleration fuel ratio, timing advance, idle rpm and some other values that may or may not affect gas mileage.

cougar gt-e

07-11-2008, 01:01 PM

Oh.... I was under the impression that most everyone had gains in fuel economy.

Packer Fan

Smith03Jetta

07-11-2008, 02:03 PM

I waited a few days to post this information. I wanted to see what would happen. The Water4Gas business in the town where I work has shut down. He has not opened his doors in 2 weeks or so. I'm not sure why he closed down. His signs are still up on the building but the "Closed" sign has not moved from it's askew position on the front roll-up garage door in a couple weeks.

Smith03Jetta

07-11-2008, 02:07 PM

"MOST" is the key word. MOST cars can and will benefit from HHO and a couple other simple tweaks. I won't go through it all over again but my car requires special attention to get any real benefit. When my car's computer started sensing the HHO, it freaks out and defaults back to a less fuel efficient fuel/air ratio. This symptom, for most people is an indication that their O2 Sensor has gone out. That's it in a nutshell.

Smith03Jetta

07-11-2008, 02:24 PM

I mentioned earlier that Sodium Bicarbonate contains Carbon. I read the following information on another forum. I thought I would share it.

# IF you are just starting to experiment, use baking soda as your electrolyte in a well ventilated area. Baking soda is a little safer to use when producing smaller quantities of hydroxy gas, but it also creates carbon monoxide as 1/3 of the gas created.
#
# That said, baking soda will eventually turn into caustic NaOH. It can also damage your electrodes so it is not to be used on anything large scale (By large scale I mean .3 LPM or more.

I wonder if anyone testing with Sodium Bicarbonate is using a carbon monoxide detector.

Any Comments?

Smith03Jetta

07-13-2008, 01:36 PM

Good news. after installing my latest PlomaBob generator I refueled and calculated over 33 mpg. That's a 5 mpg increase over my last test. That's a 37.5% increase without having my my computer modded yet.

Smith03Jetta

07-13-2008, 03:29 PM

On last leg of trip today mileage gain started to drop off. Amps started to fall to zero. Box cracked open on bottom. leaked all water and NaOH out in engine compartment. Part not stressed so could have been engine compartment heat while I was parked for lunch. Do not recommend the case now. Otherwise design is good. Will swap to a new style case and try again with same plate design.

dlw

07-13-2008, 07:11 PM

Hi Mr. Smith,

I am really glad I have read your full thread took me a few days to get through though.
I only found out about hho a few days ago and it interested me alot.
I am in the UK and am running a Mitsi L200 2.5di, I get 30(UK)mpg (4.55L).
I have looked in to adding LPG to do the same thing has I have read what you are doing here and was told by the installer that it was not worth doing (£1500 install cost)

I think I am going to experiment with hho asap but just a few question, what output will I need for a diesel?
I read in part of the thread about agitation, do you have flying cars with inertial dampers I heard they where all the rage nowadays :) engine vibration must be a thing of the past :eek:?
How much have most people spent so far on 'testing'? I have found this site (http://stores.homestead.com/hydrogengarage/Categories.bok?category=Hydrogen-Boost+Kits) seems a bit expensive for the final product :)

Also from what I have read and seen it seems like batteries are being made but with reverse results. Just like when I charge a battery I have to open the tops to stop it exploding from the gases produced, now the gas can be used.
I think I will take some ideas from the picture below also.

keep up the good work

dlw

http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/Eurobat.jpg

mario brito

07-13-2008, 08:39 PM

I have looked in to adding LPG to do the same thing

I think I am going to experiment with hho asap but just a few question, what output will I need for a diesel?

I read in part of the thread about agitation, do you have flying cars with inertial dampers

Also from what I have read and seen it seems like batteries are being made but with reverse results. Just like when I charge a battery I have to open the tops to stop it exploding from the gases produced, now the gas can be used.

Welcome

Take no offense on my comment, but i believe that you are not fully understanding this system :)

"I have looked in to adding LPG to do the same thing"

this has nothing to do with LPG :) with LPG you were going to substitute your normal fuel with another one, but in the form of a gas ( in a pressurized container ). with this system you are adding H+O to your normal fuel/air mixture, to help your engine burn the UNUSED fuel, therefore obtaining more MPG.

i know that some people claim that all they use is HHO on their engines, which is our ultimate goal, and i believe that's possible, but we are still not there :)

"I think I am going to experiment with hho asap but just a few question, what output will I need for a diesel?"

that depends on many factors, but to run a 2.5L engine only on HHO you would need ALOT !

"I read in part of the thread about agitation, do you have flying cars with inertial dampers"

you lost me here :)

Also from what I have read and seen it seems like batteries are being made but with reverse results. Just like when I charge a battery I have to open the tops to stop it exploding from the gases produced, now the gas can be used.

this system has nothing to do with a battery. we are using the car's battery electrical power to separate water's molecule on hydrogen and oxygen, adding the resulting gas to the engine's fuel.

using a car battery's case is a very good choise !

thanks

Smith03Jetta

07-13-2008, 10:37 PM

FOR ALL THE READERS OF MY THREAD. THIS IS THE POST THAT I CONSIDER TO BE THE STARTING POINT FOR ANY SUCCESS I'VE HAD. ANYTHING PRIOR TO THIS POST IS BASED ON PLATE DESIGNS OR CASES THAT WILL NOT HOLD UP. PLEASE DO NOT DUPLICATE ANYTHING PRIOR TO THIS POST...

ALSO, PURCHASE A .01 MICRON INLINE PAINT GUN FILTER FROM AN AUTO PAINT SUPPLY HOUSE. THEY ARE A COUPLE INCHES LONG, ROUND AND ORANGE... PUT IT ON YOUR HHO LINE TO KEEP ELECTROLYTE FROM DAMAGING YOUR THROTTLE BODY OR CARBURETOR. INFORMATION CAN BE FOUND ABOUT THESE FILTERS ON THE FOLLOWING THREAD

http://www.hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=14047&postcount=426

One quick note about intertial dampers. My car does not fly but it does have inertial dampers. They help cut down on engine vibration.

I did see a car fly today. It was an orange Lamborghini Gallardo. I'm sure my car got better gas mileage. It didn't fly far though. A trooper pulled him over and I"m sure they both had a big laugh.

My FRUSTRATION with the cracked Home Depot Electrical Box prompted me to go to Bass Pro Shops in Atlanta. I happened to be driving through town today. I purchased a Yellow Pelican Case in the boating department. I will re-build my Plumabob generator in this more sturdy case. I dare this $49.00 case to break, melt or otherwise fail.

daveczrn

07-14-2008, 12:16 AM

nice case. I'll have to look into this a bit.

dlw

07-14-2008, 03:47 AM

I just had an idea. Maybe just a brain fart.

Let me theorize for just a minute. The electrodes only break apart water into HHO gas when the water is in contact with the surface of the metal. Otherwise it's not conducting electricity. In our conventional generators we are forced to wait until the bubbles rise for water to make contact with the plates again.

Molecular Cohesion is the culprit. Water by nature wants to stick to itself at the surface. That surface cohesion is what makes bubbles possible and water droplets bead up. It is also what causes the bubbles to form on the steel and grow in size before they are finally released and float up to the surface of the water.

First Question:

Is there something that can be added to the water that will reduce the molecular cohesion so more water molecules are touching the surface of the electrodes and will also allow the Hydrogen and Oxygen gas to release more efficiently from the electrodes.

Second Question:

Can the water be vibrated with untrasonic waves so that the bubbles vibrate loose from the steel plates quickly? Will this vibration negatively affect the gas production?

Third Question:

If we manipulate the bubbles in either of the following manners will we increase the amp draw on the HHO generator significantly. I'm guessing since more water is in contact with the plates more electricity is being conducted.

Mr. Smith

The flying/inertial damper bit (told you I read it all.)

Mario,

"I have looked in to adding LPG to do the same thing"

this has nothing to do with LPG with LPG you were going to substitute your normal fuel with another one, but in the form of a gas ( in a pressurized container ). with this system you are adding H+O to your normal fuel/air mixture, to help your engine burn the UNUSED fuel, therefore obtaining more MPG.

I meant save me fuel & money which i guess the aim of hho is, It is not possible to run a diesel purely on lpg so I am guessing it won't be able to on hho unless somebody tell me different!!

Also from what I have read and seen it seems like batteries are being made but with reverse results. Just like when I charge a battery I have to open the tops to stop it exploding from the gases produced, now the gas can be used.

this system has nothing to do with a battery. we are using the car's battery electrical power to separate water's molecule on hydrogen and oxygen, adding the resulting gas to the engine's fuel.

using a car battery's case is a very good choice !

The theory is similar just reversed slightly, even though when you put power back into a battery gas comes out hence my quote above.

A empty battery case would be ideal I guess :)

dlw

Smith03Jetta

07-14-2008, 12:56 PM

I completed my new H2 O2 Device last night. I tested it and installed it in my car. The case will leak if pressure builds up inside but I was able to correct that with a mounting bracket that also presses on the lid a little bit. The case holds a lot more water that I expected. I ran out of water while I was filling it up. I need to pick up some more water today so I can finish filling it up and set the NaOH level.

I used the PlumaBob design on this model but I switched from SS electrical outlet covers to 18 gauge 316 stainless steel plates. I cut the plates I purchased a couple weeks ago and bent them to duplicate the setup I had in the Home Depot electrical box. I did make a slight change. I turned the plates upside down so the Stainless Rivets that hold the neutral plates are on the bottom of the case.

I took high resolution photos of the entire build including the mounting bracket in my car. I will post the photos tonight or tomorrow.

I hope I can get the same results with this new case as I did with the last one. The plates are slightly larger but the spacing is the same. The case is larger so I'll need to use more NaOH and H2O.

I really like the yellow case. I hope it holds up to heavy use. I installed it in the same compartment I previously installed the large glass jar setup. It is mounted under the bumper in front of the passenger wheel well. It was a really tight fit. You have no idea how difficult it was to find a suitable place to mount the case.

Smith03Jetta

07-14-2008, 05:59 PM

I just read something interesting on About.com. I think this is right but I don't know if it's exact.

Did you know that for every 10 amps of electricity you use on an average car it reduces the gas mileage by .4 mpg. All we have to do to get over that hump is to get more than .4 mpg increase for every 10 amps of electricity we use.

Let's say we use 20 amps. If you can increase your gas mileage by more than .8 miles per gallon, then you are a winner. Now that doesn't seem too difficult now does it.

Also what about this Doug Pelmear from Napoleon Ohio that modified his old 87 mustang to get 400 horsepower, 110 mpg, 500 fp torque running on E85? His car will do zero to 60 in 3.5 seconds.

Stratous

07-14-2008, 06:03 PM

I wanna know how he did it!!!!!!, I want more money so I can develope a better electrolyzer too..

Smith03Jetta

07-14-2008, 11:30 PM

Here are the photos I promised. I hope these photos are clear enough so you can duplicate the design if you wish. Exact measurements are not important but you get the idea. The plate spacing (Where Zip Ties are...) seems to be the most important thing. Water space between the plate pairs seems to be a good thing. There seems to be less voltage loss through the water. I'm not sure where Plumabob came up with this idea but I like it.

Smith03Jetta

07-14-2008, 11:31 PM

Some More...

Smith03Jetta

07-14-2008, 11:34 PM

Some More Photos...

Smith03Jetta

07-14-2008, 11:37 PM

And Here are the rest of the photos...

This one also shows the crack in the Home Depot Electrical Box. That sucks but it was only $11.00.

plumabob

07-15-2008, 06:40 AM

Looks Great Smitty! Looks like a nice bulletproof install. I'm thinking the reason your gray case cracked is because you mounted it on those small tabs. There is a lot of weight while it's holding all that water and SS plates, remember it was only meant to hold some wiring not to support excessive weight. I built a cradle that mine was sitting in so weight didn't matter. However I did notice I was developing some cracking aroung the 4 screw holes that attaches the lid. So I also changed. I had a clear case built for me some time ago out of 1/4 inch acrylic to house a metal detector control box. I forgot I had the darn thing. So I to converted last night. And it fits exactly where my former box was. Good to be lucky I guess. Pretty cool to watch the thing running now and seeing all the larger bubbles move up through the plates. I'll take a few pics and post later.

Bob

Smith03Jetta

07-15-2008, 09:29 AM

I did not use the mounting tabs for the install. I padded the area where I installed the electrical box with 3/4 inches of soft foam and did not even strap the box down. It was a pretty snug fit. It's possible that the crack was caused by the really hot Air Conditioner High pressure line. I'll have to investigate further.

I will have to say that something may be wrong with my current steel plates. They are not producing gas like the Stainless steel light switch covers, even with more electrolyte. I'm also stuck at 13 amps. I can't get the box to pull more than 13 amps. My goal is 16 or 17 amps. I tested it this morning and they are only putting out about 500 ml/minute compared to the measured 700ml that I showed on the youtube video using the light switch covers. I'm thinking about putting the light switch cover array in the yellow box and trying it to see what happens. The Light Switch cover array is just sitting on a shelf right now.

Even though it is only putting out 500 ml/minute, It seems to still be giving me some mileage gains. I can't measure how much because I put 220 miles on this tank of gas with the broken/leaking device turned off. I've put 115 miles on the yellow box so far. No overheating or leaks so far.

I should only be able to get 304 miles on my gas tank before hitting "Reserve" (Gas Light). I'm already at 335 and I still have over 1/8 tank of gas left before the gas light comes on. I used 2H 2O for only 1/3 of this tank of gas but still have noticeable results.

Smith03Jetta

07-15-2008, 10:38 AM

dennis13030

07-15-2008, 11:04 AM

Ok, I have some questions...

As you may have read on my last post, I'm using thicker plates on my latest generator. 18 gauge 316 stainles plates. The edges are wider than the 304 stainless light switch covers. The steel plates I'm using right now have a smoother surface than the light switch covers too. I'm getting lower gas production and I'm having trouble getting my amps to rise higher than 13 amps.

My questions are:

1. Can anybody explain to me why and if thicker plates can reduce my gas production?

2. Is the mythical voltage loss on the edge of the wider plates real?

3. Is there a difference in production using smooth surface steel plates vs sanded or rough surface steel plates. (In know that rough surface = more surface area... I've probably answered this question on my own)

What other theories can anybody come up with as to why I'm having these problems using the really nice 316 steel sheet metal?

To increase your amps, you could either remove 1 neutral plate(if you use them) or add a bit more chemical to the water.

Plate thickness does not effect production.

mythical voltage loss? It's possible you may be getting a little current leakage with uneven plate edges, but I do not think it would be significant.

Hmmm....surface finishing? The basic physics of the electrolyzer has nothing to do with surface finish. More likely, the more active surface area the better. Sanding, sand blasting or whatever does not change the surface area much. What does count more is that the surfaces are exposed and clean.

Smith03Jetta

07-15-2008, 12:41 PM

I went back to my plates and looked them over a lot. I made an "Improvement" on my latest model. I put my spacers on the corners instead of in the center of the plates. This spaces the plates more uniformly. The old setup that I created allows some of the plates to get closer together particularly on the edges. I think this is where the higher amp draw came from. The new uniformly spaced design looks better and is more consistent but it may have the unexpected result of lowering my overall production. I've decided to go back and use a different, thinner spacer to put my plates closer together. This will definitely increase my amp draw and gas output. I'll let you know the results.

One observation on the older array vs the newer array. I would get amperage spikes (3 to 5 amps occasionally on the older setup. I did not get any amperage spikes on the newer plates. I'm thinking I got amperage spikes on the older plates because vibration would allow the plates to get closer together on occasion. More movement was allowed as the water sloshed around when I hit bumps in the road.

I've got another question. What's the best way to clean the NaOH off the plates? Vinegar? I've got to take my stack apart and put in thinner spacers. I don't want to get the caustic junk all over me when I'm working on it.

In other news, Volkswagen has decided to build their North American Assembly plant in Chattanooga about 30 miles from where I live. That will provide a huge economic boom for this area. I'm excited...

spob

07-15-2008, 01:23 PM

Smith,

Roughly sand the plates. I have noticed a difference in between smooth and rough surfaces. The bubbles will form better at edges than on a smooth surface. Look where the current flows, it will always find the path of least resistance. Just like lightning rods allow for a place where the charge can "leap up" into the sky in smaller quantities instead of buiding into a lightning strike, you need to look at your array and figure out what you can do to force the current through the surface area of the plates.

Seal up the edges of you plates with silicone, leaving the top and bottom open for water flow. Rough up the conducting surfaces of the plates.

Last night I got done sealing up a couple of plate arrays I'm going to try out in a 4" ABS pipe. One array is exactly like the "smacks" design. The other has one other set of neutral plates and is a little more condensed. Both are sealed up with silicone except for the top and bottom gaps for water flow. Here is a picture. The sizes are rough. I'll try to get pictures later on.

Smith03Jetta

07-15-2008, 04:33 PM

There are some people out there who are still having difficulty understanding the current flow in this or any other cell. I will attempt to clarify once and for all how the current flows in this specific cell structure. This explanation can be adapted for other types of cells. This description can also be used to describe the current flow in the Smack Booster setup. It's almost identical, the only difference is that the Smack Booster current flows from 1 neutral to 2 positives.

I hope the following is a complete clarification of how the Plumabob style cell works.

The positive plate does not touch any other plates.

The negative plate does not touch any other plates

Every other neutral plate touches.

Go back and look at my latest high resolution photos. If you look you will understand. Electrical connections only occur where I have bent tabs on my plates. Otherwise the plates are not touching.

Here's the path of the current as simply as I can put it.

The electrical current enters the cell on the NEGATIVE plate (1). (Yes, I said Negative) Explanation at bottom of message...

The current jumps through the water from plate(1) to the first neutral plate(2).

Plate(2) and plate(3) are connected, allowing the current to flow from plate (2) to plate (3) with no resistance.

The current jumps through the water from plate(3) to the next neutral plate(4).

Plate(4) and plate(5) are connected, allowing the current to flow from plate(4) to plate(5) with no resistance.

The current jumps through the water from plate(5) to the next neutral plate(6).

Plate(6) and plate(7) are connected, allowing the current to flow from plate(6) to plate(7) with no resistance.

The current jumps through the water from plate(7) to the next neutral plate(8).

Plate(8) and plate(9) are connected, allowing the current to flow from plate(8) to plate(9) with no resistance.

The current jumps through the water from plate(9) to the POSITIVE plate(10). The current then exits the cell and makes its way back to Positive Post of the Battery or electrical supply.

END OF EXPLANATION...

Now for the electrical purists, electricity (Electrons in an excited state) does not actually travel from Positive polarity to Negative polarity. Electricity actually travels through a wire from Negative to Positive. This can be witnessed by watching a lightning storm. You can see electrical feelers rise from trees and other things on the ground. The feeler that reaches the highest makes contact with the positively charged air. The electrical circuit is then complete and the secondary lightning strike occurs. It appears to be coming down out of the sky but it's actually arcing up into the sky.

When a metal wire is connected across the two terminals of a DC voltage source such as a battery, the source places an electric field across the conductor. The moment contact is made, the free electrons of the conductor are forced to drift toward the positive terminal under the influence of this field. The free electrons are therefore the current carrier in a typical solid conductor. For an electric current of 1 ampere, 1 coulomb of electric charge (which consists of about 6.242 × 10 "to the 18th power" electrons) drifts every second through any imaginary plane toward the positive post.

Now for an understanding of Conventional Current:

Conventional current was defined early in the history of electrical science as a flow of positive charge. In solid metals, like wires, the positive charge carriers are immobile, and only the negatively charged electrons flow. Because the electron carries negative charge, the electron current is in the direction opposite to that of conventional (or electric) current.

In other conductive materials, the electric current is due to the flow of charged particles in both directions at the same time. Electric currents in electrolytes are flows of electrically charged atoms (ions), which exist in both positive and negative varieties. For example, an electrochemical cell may be constructed with Sodium Chloride or another electrolyte on one side of a membrane and pure water on the other. The membrane lets the positive sodium ions pass, but not the negative chlorine ions, so a net current results. Electric currents in plasma are flows of electrons as well as positive and negative ions. In ice and in certain solid electrolytes, flowing protons constitute the electric current. To simplify this situation, the original definition of conventional current still stands.

The previous paragraph also explains why positively charged Hydrogen atoms (+ions) are attracted to the negative plate and negatively charged Oxygen atoms (-ions) are attracted to positive plate in our cells. I also hope to ultimately answers the question as to whether the bubbles are making the movement in the water as they float to the top or whether the hydrogen and oxygen atoms are making the water move as they travel to their respective plates.

The answer is: ALL OF THE ABOVE... The Hydrogen ions cause a water current flowing to the Negative plate. The Oxygen ions cause a water current flowing to the positive plate. The bubbles cause an upward current as they are eventually forced to float to the surface because of the displacement pressure of the water. This is witnessed because more bubbles are seen in top of the cell vs bottom of the cell. Bubbles tend to always float toward the surface.

I are smart?:cool:

Smith03Jetta

07-15-2008, 11:49 PM

I have rebuilt the generator using narrower spaces between the plates. I got the results I was wanting. I was able to raise the current to 16 amps and production "Cold" was 800 ml/minute. Hot production after it's broke in should be 1 liter or more per minute. I've attached a couple videos to Youtube for your viewing pleasure and I have some photos as well. This thing really works.... I filled up with gas this evening. I will let you know my MPG results next time I purchase gas. I hope to get 400 miles on this tank of gas. 35 MPG would be real nice. Just a goal, who knows?

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Photo 1: This photo was taken immediately after I removed the case from the car. No damage
Photo 2: This photo was taken after I cut the Zip ties off the case lock holes.
Photo 3: This photo was taken after I opened the case to look inside.
Photo 4: This photo was taken after I changed up the spacing on the plates to narrow the gap on the plates.
Photo 5: This photo was taken to show up-close detail of how I modified the plate connectors to get the narrow gap.

I have started using my Sony Cybershot camera to take better photos. The earlier photos that I was taking was with my Samsung Blackjack camera phone. Sorry about the clarity on some of my earlier photos. Those designs didn't work well anyway. This is the design to emulate if you want to make something that really works and is easy to build. The low form factor of the case can potentially benefit some of you with limited space as well.

Smith03Jetta

07-15-2008, 11:51 PM

Some more photos of this latest generator.

Photo 1: Shows spacing of the plates compared to the thickness of an 9 inch zip tie.
Photo 2: Shows the Waterproof fitting used to vent the Hydrogen/Oxygen gas. After 2 days of use, no problems with the painted surface.
Photo 3: Shows the plates sitting in pure distilled water with the electricity turned on. No amp draw on ammeter.
Photo 4: Shows the plates sitting in distilled water with a mixture of 2 teaspoons of NaOH (Sodium Hydroxide) Amp Draw of 7 amps.
Photo 4: Shows the plates sitting in distilled water with a mixture of 5 teaspoons of NaOH (Sodium Hydroxide) Amp Draw of 14 amps.

After closing the lid and adding the rest of the needed water, I added a couple more teaspoons of NaOH to the mix. The amp draw rose to 16 amps (My goal) and HHO production hit acceptable levels of over 800 ml/minute.

hho_underground

07-16-2008, 11:10 AM

Hey Smith,

Thanks again for you dedication to this project as well as all your postings on this site. You thread has been very educational.

Did you ever find out why that garage was closed?

Smith03Jetta

07-16-2008, 11:16 AM

Update: I drove the car 30 miles to work this morning. Consistent amp draw of 16 amps. No fluctuation on the ammeter. After the half hour drive I popped the hood to inspect. The case was cool to the touch and the positive wire was not even warm. There was a bit of condensation in the tube going to the intake. I'm thinking about putting in a water separator chamber with a drain valve. There's not much condensation but I overfilled the container with water once during testing and a little bit of water got pushed into my engine. The engine did not quit running but it did stutter a bit and the check engine light flashed repeatedly for a couple seconds until all the water got out of the system.

Painless

07-16-2008, 12:40 PM

Been following your thread with a lot of interest, just one question though. From your second video in the post above it looks like you're not using any kind of bubbler or one way valve? Is this correct?

Smith03Jetta

07-16-2008, 12:46 PM

mneste8718

07-16-2008, 12:57 PM

Hey, where did you get your water tight fitting? Can I get it locally? That's like the most pain in the ass problem I am having with sealing things water tight...

Stratous

07-16-2008, 12:59 PM

Smith03Jetta

07-16-2008, 01:41 PM

I got the watertight fitting at Home Depot. Its a 1/2" fitting. Should be on the same aisle as the Plastic watertight boxes (That I no longer recommend).

I also believe that alternating the polarity will not have a beneficial effect. The Ions that are swimming toward their respective plates will get stuck in a suspended state and will not be attracted to either plate. They will eventually float to the surface but the surface of the water will be foamy instead of bubbly because the bubbles are exponentially smaller. It takes foam longer to break apart than bubbles. The alternating polarity could cause some big problems in my opinion.

You mentioned the Electromagnet concept. We know that Hydrogen ions are attracted to Negative charge and Oxygen is attracted to Positive, can this be used to separate the Hydrogen Gas from the Oxygen after the gas exits the electrolyte solution? Does the gaseous Hydrogen and Oxygen outside of the charged electrolyte solution still hold an ionic charge? Another use would possibly be to line the OUTSIDE of the chamber with rare earth magnets or an electromagnet to help pull the bubbles off the plates and onto the walls of the chamber instead. This would hypothetically keep the plates free of bubbles so you can get more electric current running through the water.

timetowinarace

07-16-2008, 01:48 PM

I have a theory about Hydrogen being produced on the Negative plate and Oxygen being produced on the Positive plate.

My theory is based on the fundamentals of electrical current and how Ions flow in an electrolyte solution.

I don't think the plates are actually producing the gasses at all. My theory is that the current running through the water is breaking the water molecules into their charged atomic parts (Ions) wherever it finds a suitable donor water molecule. This is an instantaneous reaction in the open ocean (Tiny gap actually) between the plates.

The positively charged Hydrogen ion is then swimming over to the negative plate where it is forced by the water's molecular cohesion properties to combine with all it's Hydrogen friends to make a bubble.

The negatively charged Oxygen ion is then swimming over to the Positive plate where it is forced by the water's molecular cohesion properties to combining with all it's Oxygen friends to make a bubble.

These bubbles grow until they can't hang on to the plate anymore and then they let go. Whee, I'm free at last!

The benefit to having a narrow gap between the plates is that the positive and negative ions do not have so far to swim. Swimming burns up electrical energy in the form of heat. Narrow plate gaps should not be a problem if you are careful in their construction. You defintely need good quality flat sheet metal. You can build one of these from outlet covers but you need to fasten the plates at the corners instead of using the pre-drilled center holes. The Narrow plate gaps will allow for you to increase the levels of electrolyte even higher and to increase your amp draw without producing more heat.

Another benefit to a narrow plate gap is that the Oxygen is building up on one plate and the Hydrogen is building up on the other. The bubbles on the two plates will push against each other or combine with each other to help release the bubbles from the plate steel quicker.

Fascinating? Yes, but these are my observations from testing my different designs.

I don't have too many original ideas but I do research allot. A number of 'inventors' have allready tackled the plate gap issue many times. 3mm has been found to be the optimum distance between plates. I have little reason to dispute their findings. The exception to this is an open bath design. Why? Because Plate gaps less than 3mm reduce current loss/leakage around the plates.

A referance source here:http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapt10.html

An excerpt from the document:

"The electrolyser shown here produces six times as much gas for exactly the same input power. This is a serious gain in efficiency. As all of the cells of this electrolyser are identical, each has approximately 2 volts across it when a 12 volt battery is used. The amount of gas produced depends directly on the amount of current passing through the cells. As they are “in series” (connected in a chain), the same current passes through all of them. For any given battery voltage and electrode spacing, the current is controlled by the amount of catalyst added to the water. The liquid in the electrolyser cells is called the ‘electrolyte’. In practice, there is a distinct advantage in having a large surface area for each electrode, and a small spacing between the electrodes of about 3 mm or 1/8”.

There is a strong tendency for bubbles of gas to remain on the surface of the electrodes and impede the electrolysis process. If there were enough bubbles on an electrode, it would not actually touch the electrolyte and electrolysis would stop altogether. Many methods have been used to minimise this problem. The electrode plates are normally made from 16 gauge 316L-grade stainless steel and it is recommended that there be between 2 and 4 square inches of plate area on every face of every electrode for each amp of current passing through the cell. Some people place an ultrasonic transducer underneath the plates to vibrate the bubbles off the plate surfaces. Archie Blue and Charles Garrett made the engine suck its input air through the electrolyser and relied on the air drawn through the electrolyte to dislodge the bubbles. Some people use piezo electric crystals attached to the plates to vibrate the plates and shake the bubbles free, others use magnetic fields, usually from permanent magnets. The best method is to treat the electrode plates with cross-hatch scouring, an extensive cleansing process and an extensive conditioning process. After that treatment, bubbles no longer stick to the electrodes but break away immediately without the need for any form of additional help. The electrolyser shown here produces six times as much gas for exactly the same input power. This is a serious gain in efficiency. As all of the cells of this electrolyser are identical, each has approximately 2 volts across it when a 12 volt battery is used. The amount of gas produced depends directly on the amount of current passing through the cells. As they are “in series” (connected in a chain), the same current passes through all of them. For any given battery voltage and electrode spacing, the current is controlled by the amount of catalyst added to the water. The liquid in the electrolyser cells is called the ‘electrolyte’. In practice, there is a distinct advantage in having a large surface area for each electrode, and a small spacing between the electrodes of about 3 mm or 1/8”.

There is a strong tendency for bubbles of gas to remain on the surface of the electrodes and impede the electrolysis process. If there were enough bubbles on an electrode, it would not actually touch the electrolyte and electrolysis would stop altogether. Many methods have been used to minimise this problem. The electrode plates are normally made from 16 gauge 316L-grade stainless steel and it is recommended that there be between 2 and 4 square inches of plate area on every face of every electrode for each amp of current passing through the cell. Some people place an ultrasonic transducer underneath the plates to vibrate the bubbles off the plate surfaces. Archie Blue and Charles Garrett made the engine suck its input air through the electrolyser and relied on the air drawn through the electrolyte to dislodge the bubbles. Some people use piezo electric crystals attached to the plates to vibrate the plates and shake the bubbles free, others use magnetic fields, usually from permanent magnets. The best method is to treat the electrode plates with cross-hatch scouring, an extensive cleansing process and an extensive conditioning process. After that treatment, bubbles no longer stick to the electrodes but break away immediately without the need for any form of additional help."

and:

"Here, you have just the electrical Plus linked to the electrical Minus by a set of four pairs of plates in a daisy chain (the technical term is: connected "in series" or "series-connected"). Easily the most electrically efficient way for doing this is to exclude all possible current flow paths through the electrolyte by closing off around the edges of all the plates and forcing the current to flow through the plates and only through the plates, but this is not possible in an open-bath design like this.

So, a compromise is reached where the current flow not minimised but iinstead is combatted by strategic spacing of the plates:

This diagram shows the way that the plates are connected. The red lines show paths of unwanted current flow which do not produce much gas. This wasted current flow is opposed by the useful current flow across gap "A" in the diagram.

To favour the flow across the 1.6 mm gap "A", an attempt is made to make the waste flows as long as possible by comparison. This is done by the gap "B" being made as large as possible.

The voltage applied to the cell (13.8 volts when the engine is running) divides equally across the four plate pairs, so there will be one quarter of that voltage (3.45 volts) across each plate pair.

If you look again at the original diagram, you will see that there are two of these sets of four plate pairs, positioned back-to-back in the container. Each of these acts separately, except for the fact that there are additional current leakage paths through the electrolyte between the plates of one set and the plates of the second set.

There is a steady voltage drop progressively across the array of plates. Remember that they are connected in pairs in the middle due to the metal-to-metal connection created by the steel nuts between the plates: "

Click the link to see the diagrams. They are at the bottom of the smack booster section.

We can waste allot of time discovering what has allready been discovered.

daveczrn

07-16-2008, 02:26 PM

any idea what tempature you were up to with your electrical box that broke?

countryboy18

07-16-2008, 02:32 PM

so then you dont use neutral plates in you cell configuration. can you make a diagram of what cell configuration would be the best. "-+-+ -+-+ -+-+" something like that. thanks

Stratous

07-16-2008, 02:45 PM

I started messing with electromagnets the other day, but have yet to apply it to a cell. Heat is an issue with the magnets as well as additional power consumption.

Smith03Jetta

07-16-2008, 03:29 PM

With the recent developments on my Hydrogen system, I have had several question that I've overlooked and haven't answered. I will attempt to answer them all with this one post.

HHO Underground: I never found out why the Water4Gas shop closed down in Calhoun GA.

PAINLESS: I am not currently running a check-valve or a bubbler. My bubbler was leaking all my fluid out so I removed it until I come up with a better design. The check-valve was of no use without the bubbler installed so I removed it temporarily as well. I'm not concerned about the engine backfiring. It's a fuel injected engine that's running in top condition. It has never backfired before so I'm really not concerned. Not everybody runs a bubbler. I think, however before I do any programming on my car's computer, I'll have a bubbler and check-valve in place. Adjusting the engine's timing could result in a backfire.

DAVECZRN: I think the temperature on the electrical box was about 140 or 150. I think that's the max temp for that box. I don't really think that the electrolyte heat is what cracked the box though. The engine compartment can get up to 200 degrees. I also have air conditioning lines running in close proximity to where I had the case installed. It's possible that the High Pressure line (Hot one) caused the crack.

CountryBoy18: I'm using what many people call Neutral Plates. I'm using 8 of them. Any plate that is not connected to either the Positive plate or the Negative plate is a neutral plate. Please go back and read my recent post number 206 from yesterday, 7/16/08 at 3:33 pm. Instead of reading it 1 time, read it several times. I've read it about 10 times to make sure I was clear enough. I tried to explain it as simply as I could. If you still can't figure it out, I will build you a device for $400.00 and save you the headache.:D

My plate configuration would be as follows:
+ N2 N2 N2 N2 -
I have extremely good photos and a plain English explanation that explains it all in detail.

Stratous: Have you considered rare earth magnets instead of Electromagnets? An electromagnet is only used when you need to turn the magnet on and off. I can't think of a reason why you would want to turn the magnetism off unless you want to pulse release the bubbles that are attracted to the magnetized case walls.

daveczrn

07-16-2008, 04:12 PM

i was wondering if in any test you did where you could see the sides of the plates to see if the center N plates were making as much HHO as the outer N's and +and- plates as well. was there any noticable production rate between teh plates i guess is what i'm asking.

countryboy18

07-16-2008, 04:19 PM

is this the same as yours i am working on the computer to try to make the perfict cell i am good with pictures but text is a problem. i read what you posted and then i made this so i hope to understand it better.

Smith03Jetta

07-16-2008, 05:00 PM

DAVECZRN: in response to your question. If you look at my plate design, you will notice some plates are really close together. Some are about an inch apart. The gas is being produced between the plates that are really close together. There is absolutely no gas being produced in the 1 inch gap. The side of the plate that is facing the one inch gap is not collecting bubbles. That gap is important to eliminate current loss between the working sets of plates.

The plate pair on the negative wire side of the box was making the most bubbles. The next highest producing pair was the pair on the positive wire side of the box. The center pairs were making a bunch of bubbles but were producing noticeably less than the outer pairs. I've re-attached the photo for you to see. You should also view the Youtube video that I posted.

Countryboy18: I looked at your design. It is the same as mine except I only have one end of my neutral plates connected. You have SS nuts connecting on top and bottom. I also have a larger gap between the connected neutral plates. I think that gap is important for voltage reduction and cooling. I understand that you are probably trying to build this to fit inside a 4 inch tube but I would strongly suggest that you space your plates like mine and Plumabob's. That would require that you get a wider container. I would also suggest that you lay your plates down so that they are longer than they are high. Laying the plates down longways (not parallel to the ground) should help you vent off the bubbles better.

Smith03Jetta

07-16-2008, 05:00 PM

Photo for DaveCZ

countryboy18

07-16-2008, 05:07 PM

correct i was planing on useing the same plastic eletrical box but then when ur's cracked then i went to the 4" pvc pipe idea. that case u have is to much money for me to spend on a great box that will have a holes drilled into it.

Smith03Jetta

07-16-2008, 05:24 PM

Countryboy18:

You are a fireman right? Do you buy your fire suit in a costume store? They both look the same, right? They both make you look like a fireman, right?

The reason why I shelled out the extra dough on a $50.00 box was to make an honest attempt at building something sturdy enough to last me a long time.

If I had purchased the yellow box the first time, I would have saved myself some money. I'm sure I've spent over a hundred dollars on PVC pipe, fittings, glue, Electrical boxes, water filter housings and other things that I've thrown away or given away to other people already.

Don't worry, I'm sure there are some guys who are laughing at my yellow box. They are wondering why I didn't build a clear polycarbonate box or something out of stainless. I guess each person has his own idea of what he deems acceptable.

Smith03Jetta

07-16-2008, 05:28 PM

More different designs.

hhosoonerorlater

07-16-2008, 09:55 PM

I just found this thread in the past week and have spent a couple evenings getting through it. I would just like to say you guys are all doing great work, and you can't beat Smith's dedication!

Stratous

07-16-2008, 11:06 PM

No, for some reason I didnt think they would be strong enough. You think they will?

Smith03Jetta

07-16-2008, 11:12 PM

Stratous:

Are you talking about the Pelican case not being strong enough? I certainly hope it is strong enough. It's definitely stronger than the brittle electrical box. It's rated for higher temperature too. I only wish I could fit a larger pelican case in my car. Some of the larger ones have latches on all sides. This case only has two latches on the front opening so I have to clamp the lid more securely as shown in my photos.

I got my On Board Diagnostic cable in the mail today. I couldn't wait to get my bubbler built to try some changes to my car's computer. I made the following adjustments as shown in the attached photos on the next post.

Stratous

07-16-2008, 11:14 PM

Smith03Jetta

07-16-2008, 11:24 PM

ECU modifications:My cables came in from overseas today so I made some mild modifications to my ECU this evening. I did one at a time in small increments to see what kinds of changes it would make to my engine. The most significant was the advanced timing setting. By advancing my timing a little (5.25 degrees), it retards the spark timing. I experienced a pretty good power lift. I also changed my idle speed a few RPMs that really helped with the engine loping at idle.

I leaned out my primary fuel 11.5 %.
I leaned out my acceleration fuel only slightly. When I leaned it out too much I lost some of my acceleration power. I didn't like that.
I leaned out my deceleration fuel a little more. I'll never miss it.
I increased the secondary fuel tweak a little bit to make the engine run smoother when transitioning between idle, acceleration, cruise and deceleration.

countryboy18

07-16-2008, 11:58 PM

does the program run on a laptop and plugs into your car computer and thats how you adjust ur stuff? what was the cost of that cool program and all of the goodys that came with it?

cougar gt-e

07-17-2008, 12:47 AM

I leaned out my primary fuel 11.5 %..

The other changes are fairly care free, but the primary down by 11.5% is potentially asking for burnt valves.

Since you have access to some buddies at a well equipped shop, you REALLY need to verify that with some tail pipe testing that you are not so lean you are damaging the engine. It can happen quick. Do you know how to inspect plugs for aluminum flecks from lean detonation? There are some decent online tutorials on plug inspection, but you need virgin plugs and a place to do a full power run.

Or....

Since you stated you have some money stashed in case of oops's, go to the link and get either a dash mounted A/F meter or a hand held one and you will be able to intelligently make changes and see the results without doing damage.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products.php

countryboy18

07-17-2008, 01:34 AM

o dont worry about that case. we have that exact same case on all of our rescue trucks they take a beating. i have never had a problem with a pelican case. i have scene how they are made. the best case ever made in my mind. they are know to be the case to beat!!! check out there web site.
http://www.pelican-case.com/?gclid=CNre05K9xowCFQGPWAodpioXaA

timetowinarace

07-17-2008, 01:50 AM

Watch your coolant temp. The engine will run hot if it's too lean. If your going to play with hho output/air fuel mixture much, I recomend a pyro(exhaust temp) gauge. It's an easy install and should be worth the money. That way you'll have a good idea if your too lean before it's too late. Judging by the 24 pages of this thread, I'll assume you'll be making adjustments often. ;)

Looking at the spark plugs works, but how often do you want to pull them out?

Smith03Jetta

07-17-2008, 02:31 AM

Ok, just cause you guys care, I'll rich up my fuel mixture some until I can safely monitor it. I know that there are some VW guys running a 20.0 to 1 fuel air ratio. Not my goal by no means... I would like to bump it up one digit, however... I've also trimmed back my ignition timing a couple degrees.

Smith03Jetta

07-17-2008, 09:37 AM

I would like to make an observation and get everybody's response.

The number one goal of Hydrogen experimentation is to create enough Hydrogen to increase the gas mileage of your automobile. The introduction of Hydrogen into the fuel mixture changes the burn properties of gasoline. It allows people to lean out their fuel mixture because of the effects of Hydrogen on the Gasoline.

Most people are several methods of accomplishing the task of leaning up the fuel mixture. Some people modify the signal coming from the O2 sensor to trick the car into leaning up the fuel mixture. Some people adjust the MAF sensor signal or the MAP signal.

In order to lean up the fuel mixture with any of the above methods, people are attaching a little electronic device of one design or another to their signal wire and then they turn a knob to reduce voltage on the wire until they are satisfied that the engine is running lean enough.

A select few people like myself own cars with complicated electrical systems that do not respond well to this type of manual signal manipulation. Software and interface cables have been designed that will allow us to download the settings from our car's computer and look at them on the screen of our laptop. The software will then allow us to incrementally adjust the stored values in the car's memory in a storage location other than the ECU itself.

Instead of twisting a knob and adjusting the fuel delivery an unknown amount, we can see exact numbers as to how far we are adjusting the mix. I do believe this type of "Leaning Up" the fuel mixture is a lot safer than what others is doing.

The changes that are made with our software will not even show up on the factory diagnostic software if we take it into the dealership. If we decide to set everything back to the factory's default settings we do not have to remove electronic devices. It takes about 2 minutes to hook the laptop up to the car's diagnostic port and hit the "Default Settings" button to reset all the changes. Even if we decide not to modify our performance settings, when the car is hooked up to the factory diagnostic software our changes do not even show up at all. The changes are stored in a memory location other than the ECU.

I have received lots of messages and posts from people are concerned that I will destroy my car's computer or engine by adjusting the settings in the ECU. I believe that with the degree of accuracy to which I can make setting changes, I am a lot less able to make dangerous setting changes than everybody else.

WHAT I DON'T KNOW is exactly how much to lean out the fuel mixture to take advantage of 1 liter per minute of HHO in a 2.0 liter engine running 87 octane gasoline. How much does an EFIE or MAF/MAP sensor enhancer lean our the fuel mixture? Percentage?

Please comment:

I also have an update on why the Water4Gas store in my town is closed. There's a sign on the door this morning that says, "Closed because of Parts Back order." I didn't know there was such a demand for Quart Mason Jars. I guess this sudden boom in Hydrogen On Demand Systems has put a serious dent in the glass jar supply chain.

Painless

07-17-2008, 11:09 AM

I thought I would throw a few thoughts in here that have appeared in my head whilst reading:

1) I definitely think that working with the ECU's values is the way to go, when it comes time to do this on my truck I know that it scares the hell out of me that maybe I will take things too far and cause damage, also, as smith03jetta pointed out, it's a lot easier to plug in a computer and make adjustments than to reverse cable splicing etc.

2) I've been thinking about monitoring the mixture through the vehicles exhaust, as far as I remember this is achieved by monitoring various gas levels coming out of the tailpipe. Seeing as our HHO induction is causing drastically lowered emissions, would this not totally upset these traditional mixture analyzing devices?

3) In the case of smith03jetta's issue, where he cannot mod the o2 sensor and has to let it do it's evil deed of encouraging the ECU to richen the mixture, the best approach would be to find out (from your VW mechanic friends?) how much of a shift towards richness the o2 sensors input is going to cause and make that exact adjustment to the baseline mixture. I'm sure that in conjunction with your diagnostic port software and their access to VW technical knowhow you could make these adjustments mathematically and get back to correct mixture settings.

daveczrn

07-17-2008, 12:10 PM

WoW i'm so envious of that computer software. I wish i could get it for my truck.

I have asked the questions as well about what a/f ratio's are ok... No one either knows or isn't talking, atleast to me their not.

good luck smith. let us know how you make out.

cougar gt-e

07-17-2008, 12:10 PM

Mr. Smith,

I surely don't have all the answers, but have diddled around with cars (mostly carburated) for 35 years. The Link I gave you to Inovate is a real good one for a person that wants to twiddle with fuel maps. You may or may not need to add an additional O2 sensor, my gut impression is that you can splice into yours and have that feed the monitor. You can get a dash gage and also store electronically things like rpm, throttle postion, temperatures, etc with the various inovate products. They have an extensive forum with no editing from the company. There are raw complaints there so you get both sides. Most people are happy with the product.

Personally, I wouldn't twiddle much with the fuel maps without a way to monitor the results. It's sort of like hunting while blindfolded at night, then looking for dead bodies in the morning. Chances are you won't get what you want! As far as the dealer knowing or not knowing - does it matter? I trust you are honorable and wouldn't claim warranty for damage caused by twiddling! As we say in the drag race world, if you wanna play, ya gotta pay.

I really admire you for your approach to this. Very logical and open to input and dicussion. Can't wait until you can report back with results from the newest version installed.

Packer Fan
(Come on Brett, shut up and play)

timetowinarace

07-17-2008, 12:19 PM

First, I agree with Painless. You really should just be trying to return the Jetta to pre-hho a/f ratio. Counter act richening of the fuel.

Anyone modifying their vehicle for performance or fuel benifits should accept the responsability that something may break. If someone is concerned with warrenty issues they should not mess with their vehicle. If you do mess with it, don't expect the dealer to pay to fix it should something break.

I don't know about the software your using but 99.9% of the time ECU changes can be discovered by the dealer. Maybe VW does not expect anyone to modify the performance of their vehicles and don't look or haven't built in ways to combat it, but all performance programmers I am aware of are detectable. The manufacturers of this type of equipement go to great pains to make them undetectable as there is a huge market for them if they can. Auto makers go through great lenths to detect them so they don't foot the bill for someones playing.

daveczrn

07-17-2008, 12:28 PM

I don't get this people. the goal is to get better gas milage. Everyone will be adjusting their A/F ratio at one point weather it be with a MAF calibrator, EFIE setup or even putting on an O2 extender. You are adjusting the A/F ratio. Smith has the best way of doing it here.

please re read this post as it's right on the money.

I would like to make an observation and get everybody's response.

The number one goal of Hydrogen experimentation is to create enough Hydrogen to increase the gas mileage of your automobile. The introduction of Hydrogen into the fuel mixture changes the burn properties of gasoline. It allows people to lean out their fuel mixture because of the effects of Hydrogen on the Gasoline.

Most people are several methods of accomplishing the task of leaning up the fuel mixture. Some people modify the signal coming from the O2 sensor to trick the car into leaning up the fuel mixture. Some people adjust the MAF sensor signal or the MAP signal.

In order to lean up the fuel mixture with any of the above methods, people are attaching a little electronic device of one design or another to their signal wire and then they turn a knob to reduce voltage on the wire until they are satisfied that the engine is running lean enough.

A select few people like myself own cars with complicated electrical systems that do not respond well to this type of manual signal manipulation. Software and interface cables have been designed that will allow us to download the settings from our car's computer and look at them on the screen of our laptop. The software will then allow us to incrementally adjust the stored values in the car's memory in a storage location other than the ECU itself.

Instead of twisting a knob and adjusting the fuel delivery an unknown amount, we can see exact numbers as to how far we are adjusting the mix. I do believe this type of "Leaning Up" the fuel mixture is a lot safer than what others is doing.

The changes that are made with our software will not even show up on the factory diagnostic software if we take it into the dealership. If we decide to set everything back to the factory's default settings we do not have to remove electronic devices. It takes about 2 minutes to hook the laptop up to the car's diagnostic port and hit the "Default Settings" button to reset all the changes. Even if we decide not to modify our performance settings, when the car is hooked up to the factory diagnostic software our changes do not even show up at all. The changes are stored in a memory location other than the ECU.

I have received lots of messages and posts from people are concerned that I will destroy my car's computer or engine by adjusting the settings in the ECU. I believe that with the degree of accuracy to which I can make setting changes, I am a lot less able to make dangerous setting changes than everybody else.

WHAT I DON'T KNOW is exactly how much to lean out the fuel mixture to take advantage of 1 liter per minute of HHO in a 2.0 liter engine running 87 octane gasoline. How much does an EFIE or MAF/MAP sensor enhancer lean our the fuel mixture? Percentage?

Please comment:

I also have an update on why the Water4Gas store in my town is closed. There's a sign on the door this morning that says, "Closed because of Parts Back order." I didn't know there was such a demand for Quart Mason Jars. I guess this sudden boom in Hydrogen On Demand Systems has put a serious dent in the glass jar supply chain.