Smith Experiment in HHO

[cougar gt-e]

Lots of numbers on this one. Please multiply RPM X 100. I reduced that number to make the chart better. at about 23 seconds I floored the throttle. You can see a sharp spike in the throttle angle. That's when I heard the faint valve knocking.

I like seeing data. I don't like not being smart enough to understand it! Do'H!

The O2 sensor data looks odd to me. It's not a lambda value as 1.00 is stoiciometric and the range is normally .75 to 1.1-ish. You seem to have negative values and that's a new one on me! Care to learn me up some?:confused:

Have you charted engine load vs injection period for the hho on and off? That may tell us something.

Daveczrn - on monitoring -> We may not know what is perfect or even the exact target, but changing primary fueling and not knowing if it is going from 12:1 to 13:1 or from 15:1 to 20:1 is pretty scary. I've seen the guts of an engine that someone twaddled the fuel map around on. He made a change of "only" 15%, but it was already lean and he didn't know it. One full power blast down the street and he melted 3 pistons with 2 having holes clean thru them. The combustion chamber must have turned into a 2-3000F blow torch for 10 seconds in the cylinders that were already dangerously lean. Oddly enough the other 5 cylinders didn't look bad at all. It still cost him a set of pistons, rings, bearings, gaskets, valve job etc. Parts cost wasn't too bad (about $500 from memory). But, if he had known that he was lean already, he wouldn't have leaned it out more! Knowledge is power, unfortunately it comes at a high cost sometimes.



Why am I so vocal? Purely selfish reasons. I enjoy reading about Mr Smith's trip down this path and want to read more about his successes so I can copy them. (I've already got lots of whoops's in my past to avoid already!!)

[dlw]

Why don't you try this http://www.alamomotorsports.com/apexi/safc.html

I used to use the first one on my Toyota alltrac for tuning purposes, the money is worth the engine rebuild.

Also I know I have mentioned LPG in part of this thread but would it be possible to use some of the parts especially the electronics http://www.aeb.it/products/feedback-systems/leonardo

dlw

[Smith03Jetta]

I don't know the optimal amount of HHO gas but I can share an experience with you guys. I was changing some settings on my car's ECU at lunch today. I was sitting in my car with the ignition switch on but the engine wasn't running. I was there for 5 or 6 minutes before I cranked the car.

I forgot to turn off the HHO Generator. It continued to produce gas even though I did not have the engine cranked. I have an in-dash switch that allows me to turn off the generator at any time.

After 5 or 6 minutes of gas production (To which I was oblivious), I finished changing the ECU settings and cycled the ignition switch for the settings to take effect. I then cranked the engine. The engine started racing up near 3000 rpms for about 2 or 3 seconds before it came back down to earth. That was a direct result of all the extra HHO gas I had been producing and pumping into my intake. I'm guessing I had produced between 5 or 6 liters. It was ALL in my intake.

There were no booms or knocks or other abnormalities. Just a racing engine until it used up the HHO.

[Stratous]

Why don't you try this http://www.alamomotorsports.com/apexi/safc.html

I used to use the first one on my Toyota alltrac for tuning purposes, the money is worth the engine rebuild.

Also I know I have mentioned LPG in part of this thread but would it be possible to use some of the parts especially the electronics http://www.aeb.it/products/feedback-systems/leonardo

dlw


I am sure that would work just fine if the burn properties of propane and Hydrogen were the same. I guess if you could make adjustments it would work fine.

[Smith03Jetta]

Engine load vs Injection period:

I only have tests with HHO. I need to go back and do some more tests without HHO for comparison. I will show you what I have.

[Smith03Jetta]

Here are some more graphs with more data

[daveczrn]

nice... i take it you were only flicking the HHO off for a second or so?

[cougar gt-e]

After 5 or 6 minutes of gas production (To which I was oblivious), I finished changing the ECU settings and cycled the ignition switch for the settings to take effect. I then cranked the engine. The engine started racing up near 3000 rpms for about 2 or 3 seconds before it came back down to earth. That was a direct result of all the extra HHO gas I had been producing and pumping into my intake. I'm guessing I had produced between 5 or 6 liters. It was ALL in my intake.

There were no booms or knocks or other abnormalities. Just a racing engine until it used up the HHO.

No other abnormalities? There would have been a certain smell in the upholstery and a few lumps in my BVD's :eek::eek:!!!

I know a guy that did a similar thing with NOS in a porshe. Blew the intake manifold into scrap! Maybe you can rig a relay up to an oil pressure switch so it is only energized when there is oil pressure?

Packer Fan
(Just say NO! -> to Brett in Purple)


Oh, had a thought. As the hydrogen combustion is aiding the gasoline combustion you may want to also diddle around with the spark timing. Safer to retard at first and see what happens. Thought is that with faster combustion from hydrogen, you won't need so much advance. Ohhh, there are so many knobs to twiddle! Fun fun fun! Too bad carburators don't have such easy controls!:(

[Smith03Jetta]

At a half tank of Gas used up I didn't really notice any improvement in my fuel mileage with the settings I put in the computer. It was actually worse than before. I also noticed a hesitation or a slight stall when I accelerated from a complete stop. I then looked at my Before Top Dead Center (BTDC) timing setting and it seemed too high. It was 15 to 17 degrees at Idle. Running upwards of 33 degrees under load. The factory setting should be between 1 to 12 degrees at idle.

When I made my setting changes the first time, I wasn't sure which way would delay the spark. I think I pushed it the wrong way. This morning I turned the number back the other way. Now the additive offset is -10 degrees instead of +5 degrees. At idle I'm now getting 6 to 8 degrees BTDC. That is well within the VW recommended settings of 1 to 12 degres. The lowest value on my computer showed it dropped to 3 degrees when gearing down under no throttle.

I immediately noticed an increase in power and the car takes off a lot easier now from a complete stop. I'll just have to fill up my car with gas again today and do another mileage test. It's all trial and error. I know I got 33.5 mpg on my trip last weekend and I can do better if I tune the ECU the right way.

I also have my VW mechanics helping me now. They are advising me what the mechanical limits are and what is safe and what will tear up my engine. They also gave me some techniques to use when doing my testing so I would know what to look for when the engine is running lean and such.

[dennis13030]

I immediately noticed an increase in power and the car takes off a lot easier now from a complete stop. I'll just have to fill up my car with gas again today and do another mileage test.

I would love to see the results this round. It looks to me like you are moving in the right direction now.

[cougar gt-e]

It's nice to have knowledgeable friends giving good advice !

[Smith03Jetta]

Here is a test that I did on the way home. Keep in mind that I've made some changes to my ignition timing since then. I will duplicate this test today and show side by side graphs for comparison. I have one road that has a steady 1 degree incline for several miles. Almost a perfectly straight road. I did a test at 55 mph on cruise control without the AC on. The first 20 seconds I was running the HHO. The second 20 seconds I had the HHO turned off. You will be able to see the differences in how the engine reacted in the attached charts. The most noticeable difference that I could see was the O2 levels went down when I turned off the HHO. I can definitely see the benefit of venting off the Oxygen from the mixture before it is introduced to the intake.

For comparison purposes I was running 2650 RPM at 85 km/h. Coolant temp was consistent at 90C.

[Smith03Jetta]

This is the log of a test that I did that got interrupted before I got finished. The driver of the car in front of me slammed on her brakes because she saw a cop. I had planned a 40 second test with HHO first half and no HHO on second half. As you can see by the graph I did not get to finish the test. You will, however notice that the Engine load went up as I turned off the HHO. According to the graph it took 12 to 14 seconds for all the HHO in the system to be used up. As it was used up the load on the engine started to increase from 29% to 36%. I think this is pretty significant because engine load is inversely proportional to gas mileage. As engine load increases gas mileage decreases.

[Stratous]

This is some very valuable data

[Bigtoyota]

So basically what you're saying is that your generator doesn't make enough HHO to keep the engine happy? That after 15 seconds the HHO was used up and no longer a factor?

[daveczrn]

no he physically turned the generator off while driving. After 15 seconds the HHO gas in the system was used up(since the generator was off) and the engine load went up. that he had been driving with the gas turned on for some time with the engine load down.

[Bigtoyota]

Ah, OK. I suppose I need to learn to read :D I'm liking the info from this thread because I have a 2003 Civic that is very similar in displacement to this Jetta, and also has all the newer sensors.

I think Smith is on the right track here. The ECU really needs to be reprogrammed with new timing and fuel maps to take full advantage of HHO in these newer EFI vehicles. Although, if your HHO gen shuts down or stops producing with a reprogrammed ECU, the results could be bad for your engine. Ideally, you'd have two fuel and timing curves stored in the ECU, and should the HHO stop, it could revert back to a plain gas fuel and timing map.

[Smith03Jetta]

I will keep adjusting my car's computer until I get the MPG where it needs to be. I will then run some comparison tests with and without HHO. I will do one test with the HHO and ECU adjustments. I will do another test with no HHO and No ECU adjustments. I will record the engine's data for analysis. I will then make the spreadsheets available to anybody that wants them.

The engine data I gather should be enough to convince any skeptic of the benefits or negative effects of using HHO in their car. I have two goals here. I would like to get better MPG but I would also like to have quantitative data to prove one way or the other if this is doing what we say it does.

Below is a small screenshot of my spreadsheet data. I've got several other data channels that I can pull into the spreadsheet.

[cougar gt-e]

Q: In the graphs, what is "engine load"? I have a general idea, but want to know what is being measured in the SW. Is it really throttle position? %fuel injector cycle? or?

I doubt you were towing an engine dyno behind you, so it has to be one or more monitored parameters that are combined to represent load, but I sure don't know which ones. It may be a reference for us carburated types...

Packer Fan

on edit, Your side by side compairson sounds good. But, you may need to add a 3rd where the hho is off, but the other changes are still there. Otherwise it may look like the improvement is from the ecm changes alone. I gotta learn to think faster. Maybe even a 4th run (whew!) with the ecm changes out and the hho on. Sure, you got lots of time.....sorry to be a pest!

[Smith03Jetta]

Cougar GTE: Good ideas, I will do just that. More control tests with and without certain items. I wish I could get a real-time fuel consumption readout but that's not possible yet.

Your question about engine load. Engine load is how hard the engine is having to work. It can be calculated by comparing the throttle position to the air flow. If you have to hit your throttle more and somehow factoring in the air flow, they you have a bigger load on your engine.

As you can see from this graph, when I turned off the HHO, both the air flow and throttle position increased. The air flow increased at a higher rate than the throttle position but they both went up noticeably.

In simpler terms, engine load increases when accelerate, you are pulling a heaver payload or driving up a hill. Engine load decreases when you slow down, coast down a hill or drop some weight from the vehicle.

From the engine data you can see that I was not changing vehicle speed or RPMS. That means I did not go up a hill or speed up or slow down. The only factor that changed was that I flipped the HHO switch off at 20 seconds into this test. I had the HHO running for several minutes prior to beginning the test.

[greuvin]

Absolutely the best way to either prove or disprove HHO. Than you Mr. Smith!

My O2 sensor was "desensitized" and I ran the HHO for 3 weeks. Couldn't get any positive results. Then decided to get serious and try a long distance haul.

I disconnected my system after doing a 400 mile highway only test with cruise control on between Houston and San Antonio. Used the HHO in one direction and no HHO in the other. My mileage was 3mpg higher without it.

I'd like to believe this works or I did something wrong. Perhaps I will give it another try if the data bears out the fact that it works to increase mpg.

[Smith03Jetta]

I did some math and it looks like if you add the air flow% to the Throttle angle% you get real close to the engine load%.

I couldn't help myself... At lunch I went out to the "Free Dyno" and did a 0-60 run and recorded the data. My car did a zero to 60 in 7.3 seconds. It's a stock 2.0 liter 5 speed with 115 horsepower. That's pretty cool because a VW GTI, All wheel drive with 1.8 turbo engine 180 horsepower does a zero to 60 in 7.4 seconds.

I did some research and that car/engine/transmission combo should be doing a 10 second 0-60.

[midnight1957]

Mr. Smith, you have mail.

Thanks and have a Blessed day,
Wade

[Smith03Jetta]

How about this test. The graph should be self explanatory. I ran this test on the same road as yesterday. I live in a naturally hilly area but this happens to be the flattest road within driving distance. It has a 1 degree incline for several miles. I ran a 3 minute run to be able to provide more data. At 60 seconds I turned off the MAF sensor which I turned back on for this test. At 120 seconds I turned off the HHO. The test ended at 3 minutes. I used a stopwatch to turn off each item.

You will notice that about 12 seconds after turning the HHO off the load on the engine went way up. Just like before when I cut the HHO off the HHO residual effect lasted between 12 and 15 seconds.

[hhosoonerorlater]

Hey smith is there anyway you could post the link to the software you are using on your laptop again? I know you have posted it before, but I can't seem to find it. I just got my first generator built and I have a friend that has a lot of experience tweaking with ECUs that is going to give some pointers when I get my cable in and have that software. Thanks!

[Smith03Jetta]

Unless you have a VW, AUDI, or Skoda car this software will not work for your car. It was designed especially for these cars.

By the way, download lemmiwinks at
http://www.ecodetuning.com/revo/Lemmiwinks.exe

I did have to purchase an OBD-II cable from ebay. I had to change one setting on the USB - serial port. The value for Latency Timer must be set to 1 for lemmiwinks to work. If you need help, just ask... This is the solution for the problem that everybody is posting on the internet about this problem...

[midnight1957]

Mr. Smith, I have followed yours and PlumbBob's post on here and tried to hang on every word, you guys are great.
I do have a few questions for the both of you if you both would be so kind to answer them.

1.Did you choose the size Pellcan case because it would fit your car or because the plates you had made would fit into it without any trouble.

2. When your Pellcan case is full (before the lid is shut) does the electrolyte cover the plates completely of do you have to add more? How do you plan to keep check on the level of electrolyte in it?

3. Is the reason you used the size plates that you did because you already had them or is that the max you would have used anyway. If you had a larger or deeper case would you make plates as large as would fit the case?

4. It looks like you have enough room in your Pellcan case to have larger plates, I have always heard that size matters (did I say that ?!!!!!) can you make more hydrogen by putting larger plates in your case of do you need to leave that much room for electrolyte?

5. If you don't want to put larger plates in your Pellcan case can you make more hydrogen by putting more plates in and if so would all of the new ones all be neutral?

6 There are several thoughts on spacing of plates. If I remember you are leaving 1/16 inch between the plates and 1 inch between the pair of plates, is this correct and if so is it critical?

7. On the positive and negative plates what did you use to connect the bolt that goes through the case to the strap and also the strap to the plate, did you weld them on? What method of sealing did you use where the bolts go through the case to prevent leaks?

8. Why did you rivet your neutral plates together rather than bolt them?

9. Do you agree that the ends of the plates need to be closed up with something (maybe silicon) to make the electrolyte go through the plates?

10. Lastly, you have given data on your computer reading but what kind of increase in mileage do you have NOW versus when you began. One more thing, I will give you credit for perserverance, I followed you from the beginning and you stuck with it and now you are reaping the results of your long and sometimes flustrating work.

Thanks and have a Blessed day,
Wade

[Smith03Jetta]

My last measured gas mileage test (220 miles) last Sunday gave me 33.5 miles per gallon. My HHO box got cracked at sometime toward the end of the test and leaked my water out. On the trip home I only got 27.5 mpg.

I then built my new yellow container and made some incorrect mods to my ECU. I made a few fixes to my ECU today and went to fill up with gas to start my MPG test all over again. I knew that I probably didn't get much gain on that 8 gallons of gas because I had my timing advance tuned in the wrong direction. I calculated it just to see and I got 29.5 mpg. It was a little better than I thought it would be and it was 2 mpg better than when I was running without HHO at all.

With the ECU modded and the HHO pumping out gas at 16 amps I drove 18 miles home from the gas station. My wife then asked me to go to Hooters to get some Chicken wings. I didn't want to let her down so I got back in my car and drove nearly 30 miles to Chattanooga TN. I was almost in Chattanooga before the gas needle moved from the full position. Normally the gas needle starts moving at about 17 to 25 miles. It waited until 40 or so miles to start moving this time. The tic marks on my fuel gauge are normally in 50 mile increments. I can pretty much look at my fuel gauge to see how many miles I've driven. At exactly 200 miles, it's at the half tank mark (4 tics) on the gauge. Two tics = 100 miles and so on.

I said all that to say this. I put 78 miles on my gas tank this afternoon. Most of the time I was driving 60 to 65 with the AC on. The fuel gauge is sitting on the spot it normally is when I've driven 48 or 49 miles. It's just a hair short of the normal 50 mile mark or 1/8th tank.

I know that it is premature to say that I've seriously increased my MPG but I saw this same phenomenon when I was doing my gas mileage test last Sunday only using my HHO and MAF enhancer. It just seems that I'm getting a lot better results this time compared to last time. It could just be my imagination or a placebo effect but I don't think so.

When I calculated my gas mileage today I was hitting 29.5 mpg with my ECU configured wrong. This is exactly what I've been getting with most of my HHO test runs. I think the fact that I had my timing adjusted in the wrong direction, it was counteracting the effects of leaning up my fuel. +5 plus -5 equals 0 results. This time, I've leaned my fuel out and I've corrected the timing problem. I really hope I've hit on the formula this time.

I would like to comment on another phenomenon that some skeptics say is happening. Some say we are getting better gas mileage because we are paying closer attention to our driving habits etc. I agree with that statement to some extent. Hypermilers do it all the time. We are watching our fuel gauges like hawks watch mice. I would like to say that before I started testing the HHO I drove like a "bat out of hell". Driving like that gave me about 25 miles per gallon with the AC on. With the AC off during the winter I got closer to 29 to 30 mpg. I would occasionally get 30 to 30.5 on long highway trips. Most are in the winter, going home for Christmas and such. No AC use... Since I've started testing HHO, my driving habits have changed. I've been easier on my engine and transmission. My driving has calmed down considerably. I never even drive 70 on the interstate any more. I stay at about 65. I've been driving this same sensible way now for over a month. This type of driving has increased my gas mileage from 25 mpg to around 27 mpg. Regardless of me driving like a grandma for a month, I have not been able to break the 29 mpg mark except for a couple times. The first time was with a Smack type booster. I got 31.5 mpg with that one. I got 33.5 with the Exact duplicate of the Plumabob design. The rest of my tests running low volumes of HHO (.25 to .33 liters/minute) got me no gain or very little gain, 27.5 to 29.5 mpg.

I can say that my driving habits have changed but not enough to effect my gas mileage very much. I give some credence to the Hyper-vigilant driver theory but I can safely say that it is not the cause of my successful tests. I attribute those successful tests to HHO outputs of over 700 ml of gas per minute in my 2.0 liter engine.

[Smith03Jetta]

Mr. Smith, I have followed yours and PlumbBob's post on here and tried to hang on every word, you guys are great.
I do have a few questions for the both of you if you both would be so kind to answer them.

1.Did you choose the size Pellcan case because it would fit your car or because the plates you had made would fit into it without any trouble.

2. When your Pellcan case is full (before the lid is shut) does the electrolyte cover the plates completely of do you have to add more? How do you plan to keep check on the level of electrolyte in it?

3. Is the reason you used the size plates that you did because you already had them or is that the max you would have used anyway. If you had a larger or deeper case would you make plates as large as would fit the case?

4. It looks like you have enough room in your Pellcan case to have larger plates, I have always heard that size matters (did I say that ?!!!!!) can you make more hydrogen by putting larger plates in your case of do you need to leave that much room for electrolyte?

5. If you don't want to put larger plates in your Pellcan case can you make more hydrogen by putting more plates in and if so would all of the new ones all be neutral?

6 There are several thoughts on spacing of plates. If I remember you are leaving 1/16 inch between the plates and 1 inch between the pair of plates, is this correct and if so is it critical?

7. On the positive and negative plates what did you use to connect the bolt that goes through the case to the strap and also the strap to the plate, did you weld them on? What method of sealing did you use where the bolts go through the case to prevent leaks?

8. Why did you rivet your neutral plates together rather than bolt them?

9. Do you agree that the ends of the plates need to be closed up with something (maybe silicon) to make the electrolyte go through the plates?

10. Lastly, you have given data on your computer reading but what kind of increase in mileage do you have NOW versus when you began. One more thing, I will give you credit for perserverance, I followed you from the beginning and you stuck with it and now you are reaping the results of your long and sometimes flustrating work.

Thanks and have a Blessed day,
Wade

I had my eye on the Pelican case prior to purchasing the steel plates or even seeing Plumabob's design. The plates were roughly the right size so I just decided to buy the Pelican case as a sturdier replacement for the Home Depot container. I did have to make sure I got a case that would fit in my car, though. I guess the ultimate decision was to purchase a case that would fit my car and build a design that works for the case.

I have to close and clamp the lid prior to adding the rest of the electrolyte solution. I set the amp draw prior to closing the lid, then add some more fluid of the same ratio of water to NaOH. That case holds 1 gallon. I have been trying to come up with a good way of looking at my water level. I will probably put in a plug that is easily removed for inspecting and adding fluid.

I already had the plates before I bought the case so I used what I had. I have more room in the box so I could put in bigger plates I guess...

I could probably produce more gas if I had larger plates. I do like the extra water, however because I think it helps keep my temp down. I seem to be making an adequate amount of HHO so I'm satisfied for now.

If I added more plates, they would be neutral plates. I don't think I'll add more plates though because the 1 inch space between the plate pairs helps to reduce the current traveling through the water. That helps with amp draw and temperature.

I think my plate spacing is just about right. No more, no less.

The strap is actually part of the plate. I just cut a strip and folded it back to make a strip. No need to weld anything. I drilled a hole in the end of the "Strap" and run my SS bolt through it and out the hole in the box. I use an old inner tube to cut some gaskets to seal inside and outside the container. I use lockwashers when I put the nuts on from the outside of the box.

I rivetted the plates together because I already had some SS rivets that I purchased for a prior experiment. I didn't see the need for purchasing SS bolts and nuts. 6 of 1, half dozen of the other. Makes no difference to me.

I don't really have a comment about the use of silicon to seal up the ends of the plates. I have not tried it to have formed an opinion. I can say, however that silicon gets on everything if you are not careful. Any part of a plate that has a film of silicon on it is not conducting an electrical current.

I ranted on my last post about my fuel mileage gains... Since I've got the ECU straightened out (I Hope) I haven't put enough miles on my car to get an accurate MPG measurement. I can't tell much at 78 miles. I don't see the point of just hopping in my car and driving a couple hundred miles just to check my MPG. I will get there eventually and then I'll post a new MPG result. It will probably be sometime next week unless I have to do some driving this weekend. I'm hoping to sell one of my motorcycles this weekend so I may have to drive a little bit, who knows.

[Smith03Jetta]

I hear that Dihydrogen Monoxide stuff that we are dealing with can be deadly. Regardless of what you may think, Dihydrogen Monoxide is in our electrolyte bath. I hear that on average, 9 people a day in the United states die from ingesting this terrible stuff. Of all the children who die between the age of 1 and 4, 1/4 die from ingesting this stuff. 19 percent of the deaths from this stuff in public facilities have been incidents where safety personnel have been standing by. A child is 14% more likely to die from ingesting this stuff than by being killed in a car wreck.:eek:

[daveczrn]

wow... thats very supprising.

[Smith03Jetta]

Does anybody on this site have an example of a Hydrogen/Oxygen separator that is working?

[kiwibrick]

I hear that Dihydrogen Monoxide stuff that we are dealing with can be deadly. Regardless of what you may think, Dihydrogen Monoxide is in our electrolyte bath. I hear that on average, 9 people a day in the United states die from ingesting this terrible stuff. Of all the children who die between the age of 1 and 4, 1/4 die from ingesting this stuff. 19 percent of the deaths from this stuff in public facilities have been incidents where safety personnel have been standing by. A child is 14% more likely to die from ingesting this stuff than by being killed in a car wreck.:eek:


Well if people didn't inhale that dihydrogen monoxide they would be fine, drink it don't inhale it..... ;)

[Stratous]

Does anybody on this site have an example of a Hydrogen/Oxygen separator that is working?

Not yet, I plan to attempt the magnetic seperator soon. Just need to order some magnets. Not sure how strong they should be.

[Smith03Jetta]

The graphical data that I'm logging shows clearly when the Oxygen levels increase in my exhaust. It should be very easy to test whether a Hydrogen/Oxygen Separator is working or not. As far as magnets go, I'm guessing the stronger the better and go with very strong Al nickel permanent magnets instead of electromagnets to save the strain on the engine. I'm thinking in the bubbler, put a diffuser on the bubbler tube that's under water to make the bubbles coming out smaller to keep down splashing in the tube, then put positive charge on one vent (Hydrogen) at the top of the bubbler that's going to the engine. The other vent at the top of the bubbler should have a negative charge. Vent that tube (Oxygen) outside the vehicle. There may be a problem with regulation of pressures that could force hydrogen out the oxygen vent but I really don't know... I've read about the motorcycle guy that keeps both vents regulated at 30 psi... I think that's a little high but who knows.

Here are some properties of different magnets.

Neodymium magnets ( The strongest I know of) will lose their magnetic properties if heated above 175° F (80° C).

As far as my latest engine settings are concerned, I've noticed that when my engine is cold it cranks up fine but it really has a significant power loss. I have to wait a few moments before I take off. I'm thinking it's because the timing is retarded and the HHO generator has not hydrogenated the fuel mixture yet. When my engine cranks up it normally runs at 1050 rpm for a few moments until it finally backs down to 860 rpm. I'm sure that during that time the engine is automatically adjusting the timing.

My computer software will allow me to enrich or lean out the start up and warm up fuel ratios. Does anybody know if I should change these two separate value?

[daveczrn]

it sounds like it might be a good idea.. is there a time limit you can adjust as well? there is a problem adjusting this though as it gets colder out the required time will be longer.

[daveczrn]

im really having trouble reading the oxygen sensor levels as well. any chance you can clean up or just make a new one with not as many items graphed? and maybe have some type of explaination about what the numbers mean?

[dennis13030]

Does anybody on this site have an example of a Hydrogen/Oxygen separator that is working?


See image below.....................

[cougar gt-e]

My computer software will allow me to enrich or lean out the start up and warm up fuel ratios. Does anybody know if I should change these two separate value?

If you bought an Innovate Motorsports Air/Fuel gage you would be able to read the number directly....

Does your software output the air fuel ratio from the sensor?

[Smith03Jetta]

The free version of the software I downloaded does not show me the Air Fuel Ratio but if I paid $99.00 for the full license and bought a different cable, I could do more with it.

Also on the oxygen separator, I've seen that design before but it separates the gasses while they are still in the water. I want something that separates the gasses after they leave the electrolyzer.

[midnight1957]

There is a company called United Nuclear that sells some seriously strong magnets. Where would the magnets be placed on the generator, how many and inside or outside?

Thanks and have a Blessed day,
Wade

[justaguy]

I think it would be interesting to see what effect the magnets would have on the inside placed on the + and - side of the plates.

[Smith03Jetta]

I think putting the magnets inside the container would have less effect. If the entire magnet is inside the container, then the entire magnetic field would be inside the box. From what I can figure out, the point is to only put the positive magnetic field on one side and the Negative field on the other. I'm also aware of some certain films that can be put inside the system that will allow electricity conductivity but will allow for separation of ions. I mentioned something about it earlier in my explanation of electrical current. If we could do that, then we could physically separate the ions in the electrolysis chamber using multiple plate designs. I do think the boxes would need to be larger than mine...

[Smith03Jetta]

Ok, My ECU change had a positive effect on my fuel mileage. Last gas fill up had calculated 29.5 mpg. This gas fill up calculated at 32.24 mpg. That's pretty good but I think I've got room for some improvement. The EPA estimate for combined mileage for my car is 24 mpg. I'm getting 34.33% better MPG right now. After some more ECU tweaks, I'll report back. It will probably be Friday or Saturday before I have another calculation unless I have to do some unexpected driving...

[Stratous]

I think putting the magnets inside the container would have less effect. If the entire magnet is inside the container, then the entire magnetic field would be inside the box. From what I can figure out, the point is to only put the positive magnetic field on one side and the Negative field on the other. I'm also aware of some certain films that can be put inside the system that will allow electricity conductivity but will allow for separation of ions. I mentioned something about it earlier in my explanation of electrical current. If we could do that, then we could physically separate the ions in the electrolysis chamber using multiple plate designs. I do think the boxes would need to be larger than mine...

I wish i knew how to draw on the computer...... Perhaps placing one of those rare earth magnets placed on each side with SS divider will keep the magnetic fields from interferring?

[ozboy]

had a thought are you injection engine side of inlet sensor? im not sure but i live in the snowy mountains 3500ft if i inject air cleaner side of sensor ie more oxygen across sensor computor thinks im at sea level and will not inject more fuel for lack of oxygen. i may be wrong correct me if im wrong.

cheers conrad

thunder from down under

[Smith03Jetta]

I do not want to inject my Hydrogen and Oxygen on the filter side of the Mass Air Flow Sensor. My car has a Hot Platinum Plate in its Mass Air Flow Sensor. I do not care to have the Hot Platinum in contact with the Hydrogen Gas. It may be safe but I don't know for sure. The Mass Air flow sensor does not sense Oxygen Levels. It only senses air mass, regardless of the content.

[daveczrn]

i saw a figure the other day saying hydrogen needs to get to over 1000*f for it to ignite. you should be fine.

[Stratous]

i saw a figure the other day saying hydrogen needs to get to over 1000*f for it to ignite. you should be fine.

I believe that is correct for spontainious combustion meaning without spark. Also oxygen with hydrogen burns VERY easy. I blew up my vacuum pump last week becasuse of the spark caused by the DC motor. Oxygen mixed with Hydrogen is very combustable. Thats why its so dangerous to store the two together.

[Smith03Jetta]

Regardless of the hot MAF sensor igniting the Hydrogen or not, what benefit will I get from having the gasses pass the MASS air flow sensor? It does not check the content of the gas for high oxygen levels. It only checks the MASS of the incoming air.

Since I would be introducing more Oxygen/Hydrogen to the incoming air then the air would be more dense. Dense air as sensed by the MAF sensor tells the fuel injectors to supply more fuel to the engine. That's the opposite effect that I want. Am I wrong in my understanding of this process? If there was some way of making the incoming air less dense, that would have the same effect as driving at higher altitues.

More Dense Air = More Engine Power = More Fuel being used = worse gas mileage.

Less Dense Air = Less engine power = Less fuel being used = better gas mileage.

[daveczrn]

yes i agree. I guess just pumping in more air after the MAF sensor would help try and trick the computer.. not the best answer but it might work to a point.

[Smith03Jetta]

I propose an experiment...

I would like to put a bypass on the MAF Sensor. A "U" shaped hose installed on the air intake duct work before and after the MAF sensor with a damper valve on it that can cause a certain amount of air to bypass the MAF sensor. That would definitely cut down on the amount of air being passed across the sensor.

The temperature of the air would stay the same but the volume of air would change.

Other things could be done like putting a small wire or screen or something in front of the sensor to diffuse the airflow. Who knows... Just some thoughts.

I'm guessing that would have a similar effect as a MAF enhancer.

[cougar gt-e]

I propose an experiment...

I would like to put a bypass on the MAF Sensor. A "U" shaped hose installed on the air intake duct work before and after the MAF sensor with a damper valve on it that can cause a certain amount of air to bypass the MAF sensor. That would definitely cut down on the amount of air being passed across the sensor.

The temperature of the air would stay the same but the volume of air would change.

Other things could be done like putting a small wire or screen or something in front of the sensor to diffuse the airflow. Who knows... Just some thoughts.

I'm guessing that would have a similar effect as a MAF enhancer.

Seems like a lot of work and some risk. I know the GM MAF sensors are multi-hundred $$ and easy to break. (I think (?) this is correct, but.... The GM ones are a thin wire that is heated by a specific current. The variable amount of air going past it cools it and that is how they calculate the actual air flow.

Since you have the software, why mess around with moving things around physically>? So much easier to do by changing the data tables.

What you should be doing is driving an extra couple hundred miles a day (before work, over lunch, after work and before bed time) so you can post more updates! ;):D;)

[hhosoonerorlater]

Will bypassing the sensor compensate for the loss you get from the extra oxygen levels in the O2 sensor? I don't know if it would be worth the time/risk. Just a thought!

[Smith03Jetta]

Here is the current status of my car:

I was getting several fault codes on my car until I made my recent ECU adaptation channel changes. Every time I would clear a code it would come back within a couple minutes. With the recent ECU changes that I made, I used my laptop VAG-COM software to clear the codes. I've driven for two days now with no codes showing up. That seems promising.

I have used the O2 Sensor Extender to pull the O2 sensor out of the exhaust stream, I am using a MAF sensor enhancer to lower the voltage on the MAF sensor signal wire slightly (Thinks it's running with less dense air). I can not currently change this value with software changes.

I've also used computer software (Lemmiwinks) to change ignition timing -8% BTDC. While driving it is firing at 13 to 15 degrees BTDC. At idle the timing is from 3 to 11 BTDC. Prior to changes it was firing at 21 or 23 degrees BTDC during driving. I lowered the primary fuel level about 9%. I lowered the acceleration fuel percentage a couple percentage points. I lowered the deceleration fuel percentage about 10%. I notice some bumps when using cruise control going down hill. I may need to raise this percentage). I increased my idle RPM about 20 rpm. I changed my idle torque about 3 points to help with takeoff power.

I also installed a fuel line heater.

I have plenty power, no lean valve noise. No detonation. No backfiring. No increase in engine temperature.

I increased the tire pressure in my tires yesterday a few pounds. This is to test a hypermiling mod that most claim to increase your gas mileage significantly.

Some of the error codes that I was getting before I reprogrammed my ECU was Lean Burn Ratio, Primary and secondary O2 Sensor Wire Ground Fault, Engine Misfire Detected, Intake Air ratio out of range. (Paraphrased)

I'm theorizing that without reprogramming the ECU on modern EFI cars, you are risking some damage to your engine. I think the ECU mods are vital. What are the Specific mods that should be made to YOUR ECU? I don't know that they are the same for each car. It took me this long just to get some good results on my Jetta.

[daveczrn]

You've gone much further than most of us have... I just found out that the only thing i can do to modify my air/fuel ratio correctly will end up costing me $700... I guess i got alot of saving to do


Good luck smith.

[Smith03Jetta]

Daveczrn:

Please describe your car, Year, make, model, Engine size. I've scanned the posts and I don't think you have it listed... I've found several free software packages out there for other cars besides VW. All you would need is the proper On-board diagnostic cable and a PC or Laptop. No need to spend a lot of money for someone's proprietary tuning solution. I spent a grand sum of $33.00 for two cables to be able to tune my car's engine...

[Smith03Jetta]

Ok, guys, i've got a treat for you. I have obtained a circuit diagram for an automatic MAF signal enhancer. It does not have to be switched between highway and city. It does not have to be switched on and off between idle and driving. I have not built the device yet because my electronics skills suck. A seasoned electronics guy put this design together for me and virtually tested it on computer.

Is there anybody out there on this forum who is willing to build this device an put it to use? I would really like to see if this would work. It's a lot more advanced than anything I've seen so far.

I gave the electronics guy the following information and he provided me with the attached diagram.

************************************************** ***

I am attempting to modify the voltage on a Mass Air Flow sensor signal wire. I want to maintain a minimum voltage on the wire but scale back the voltage on the signal wire as the original voltage increases above 3 volts.

How I want my MAF sensor signal voltage to behave.

The MAF sensor maintains a constant voltage at car engine Idle. That voltage instructs the ECU to pump adequate gasoline through the fuel injectors to maintain an idle near 900 rpm.

As the throttle is engaged, the airflow into the engine increases. This increase in airflow causes the MAF sensor wire to cool off. This cooling effect increases the output voltage at a rate proportional to the increased rate of airflow.

My goal is to provide the factory amount of gasoline flow at idle but to lean out the fuel supply as the MAF sensor signal voltage increases. In order to do this, I want to lower the voltage a percentage ranging from 0% reduction at Idle to n% at full throttle. The “n” value should be adjustable to allow fine tuning of the engine.

[Smith03Jetta]

I guess I made a mistake of some kind. I noticed that my fuel gauge was going down too quickly so I stopped for a fill up and checked my mileage. It's the worst gas mileage I've got since I started this HHO Testing. It was 26. That's down from 32.24 on my last test. Something is seriously out of whack. I'm going back to my earlier settings and work my way from there.

That's a net loss in gas mileage. I'm not sure what could do that short of some bad gasoline or a fuel leak. I could have set my ignition timing incorrect. That could definitely cause it.

[daveczrn]

Daveczrn:

Please describe your car, Year, make, model, Engine size. I've scanned the posts and I don't think you have it listed... I've found several free software packages out there for other cars besides VW. All you would need is the proper On-board diagnostic cable and a PC or Laptop. No need to spend a lot of money for someone's proprietary tuning solution. I spent a grand sum of $33.00 for two cables to be able to tune my car's engine...



2009 toyota tacoma 4.0L v6 6spd manual.

i had an older model but i got into an accident and the truck was totaled. As far as the electronics go for the engine i can't see them being any diffrent from the older models (going back to 2005)

[Smith03Jetta]

I've been looking through my McMaster Carr catalog today and I've found a good checkvalve for the stuff we are building.

15 psi, 1 psi cracking pressure - Diaphragm Check Valve: PVDF body with Viton Diaphram. Superior heat and chemical resistance. Up to 250 degrees F.
1/8" - 47245K35 - 12.63
3/16" - 47245K36 - 11.05
1/4" - 47245K37 - 11.05
5/16" - 47245K34 - 20.79

[Smith03Jetta]

I did a volume test yesterday. After a couple weeks my Yellow Box is putting out consistent 920 ml/minute with my engine running. 16 amps on a 12 volt car using 100% Sodium Hydroxide as an electrolyte. I have not checked the voltage at the plates so I can not yet calculate the watts.

I will open the box this weekend to inspect everything. I will take pictures. So far the Pelican box does not get warm to the touch after 30 or 40 minutes of driving time. It's tucked in under the wheel well so it does not get affected so much by the engine compartment heat.

There have also been no amperage fluctuations while driving. I did notice the amperage go down one amp after a week of driving so I added some water. The amps went back up to 16 after the fill up.

After making a couple adjustments to the computer settings I've put about 100 miles on this tank of gas. It seems that my MPG is getting better. I'll know in a few hundred more miles. I guess I pushed the ignition timing a bit too far last time resulting in really bad gas mileage. 26 mpg sucks. I'm aiming for consistent 33 to 35 mpg mixed driving with AC on.

With no real guidance for adjusting these settings I guess it a Crap Shoot. The VW mechanic friends of mine have only told me the operating limits of the engine that will result in engine damage. I'm working well within these limits and trying different things to try to improve my mileage.

One of the mechanics came in a while back holding up a melted exhaust Valve. He was smiling real big and laughing. He then told us the he drilled out the nitrous port too much and was shooting a 400 shot of nitrous on his GTI instead of 200 with no fuel system mods. Man, that was stupid. He had it fixed the next day...

[Smith03Jetta]

I have a very efficient cool-running wide/flat setup holding 1 gallon of water that is putting out 920 ml/minute at 16 amps using Sodium Hydroxide.

My decision to ultimately go with my current design was based on low cost of assembly, practicality, space constraints and ease of assembly.

It took about an hour to build my generator and begin testing.

Parts list:

Suitable container (Pelican Box) - $49.00
Two SS bolts - $1.00
Old rubber inner-tube for gaskets - $FreeBee$
4 SS nuts/washers - $.50
Zip ties - $7.00
SS pop rivets - $5.00
SS plates from a local sheet metal shop - $33.00
Hose Fittings - $8.00
Plastic Hose - $10.00
Distilled Water - $.72 (Gallon) x 3
Roebic Drain Cleaner or Red Devil Lye Drain Cleaner 100% Sodium Hydroxide - $9.00
Wiring Stuff, fuse, toggle switch - $25.00

Total cost for project - $150.00

Tools needed for assembly:

Metal saw - hacksaw or bandsaw (you can have the sheet metal shop cut the single groove for you if you don't want to buy a saw)
Drill and drill bit set.
Pop rivet Gun.
Wire snips.
Misc hand tools such as pliers and wrenches for tightening nuts.

[Smith03Jetta]

I did not get to take my Electrolyzer apart for its inspection this weekend as planned. I cleaned, waxed and sold one of my motorcycles. I also re-modeled my kid's bedroom on Saturday. I fixed some nail holes in the walls, did a two tone paint scheme and put up trim between the two colors. He seems to like it.

I recovered on Sunday.

[Stratous]

nicely done, Red Paint, You trying to bring out the football player in your son....lol. Honestly, I like the semi gloss red. Adds a nice effect.

[Smith03Jetta]

Who wants engine data? I will be posting the engine data in spreadsheet form. The file will be an unedited spreadsheet logged on the way to work this morning. It's about 30 minutes of drive time.

I will put some markers on the spreadsheet to identify what was happening while I was driving, Cruise control, Stops, etc.

[Smith03Jetta]

Here's the zipped engine data file. The spreadsheet is in two parts. This is running HHO 100% of the time. I do not have a comparison without HHO available yet. I'll post it as soon as I get it.

I did a MPG test again today so I could post RESULTS to accompany this spreadsheet. I calculated it at 30.25. MPG. That's an overall increase of 26%.

Some of my tests I've done better, some I've done worse. Best has been 33.5mpg (Interstate driving only, no ECU mods). Worst has been 26mpg (badly configured ECU). With a couple more adjustments I think I can get my MPG up to an acceptable level. 35 mpg would be the magic number that would tell me it's worth the trouble or not. That would be a 40%+ increase in my gas mileage.

[HHOhoper]

Well my car didn't blow up this morning on the 30 mile drive to work. The wires did not get hot. They didn't even get very warm. The box did not overheat.

I have decided (Based on recommendations) to get an inexpensive amp gauge to install in my car so I can monitor the amperage on the generator. A 30 amp gauge should do just fine if I'm only using it for the HHO System.

Once the amp gauge is installed, I'll adjust the NaOH level to get the amps up to where they need to be.

Other than the Overamping, Wire melting PVC Pipe booster that I built with no neutral plates, this one is putting out the most HHO so far.

Mr. Smith, did you get that gauge? Where did you get it and how does it look? I want to put one in my car and it mentioned using a "shunt" and I have NO clue what that is or how to wire it.

[Smith03Jetta]

I did get that ammeter gauge and I have it installed on my dash near the windshield pillar. It gives me peace of mind that my HHO system is working just fine. I used a SunPro ammeter http://sunpro.com/product_detail.php?pid=16301 available online or from an auto parts store like CarQuest or Napa. AutoZone or Advance or Orielly will probably not have it in stock.

I also purchased a new fuse from the car radio section of Walmart this week. I have not installed it yet. It is Quite a bit larger than standard auto fuses. "SCOSCHE Maxi" style fuse I think. It is normally used for car amplifiers. I like the looks and you can fuse large gauge wire with it.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2606832
They also make these fuse boxes with multi-outputs. Those would be nice if somebody needed one.
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=2606831

I'm also working on a filler tube/sight tube for use while filling my case. I also have an idea about using a sensor wire inside my case to alert me when the water level falls to a certain level. It can activate an LED on my dash or something when the water drops low enough to expose the sensor wire. Just a thought... I'll try a bench test this week to see if the concept holds "Water".

[HHOhoper]

Is your ammeter analog or digital?

[Smith03Jetta]

http://sunpro.com/product_detail.php?pid=16301

[HHOhoper]

Not bad, not bad. This is totally off topic, so I apologize.

Why do they have a (-) and (+) for an ammeter? I can't figure that one out.

[Smith03Jetta]

In answer to a previous question about hooking up an ammeter:

Hooking up an ammeter is extremely simple. Just cut your positive cable. Put a couple crimp style connectors on each end of the cut wire. Fasten one wire to each of the posts on the ammeter. That's all there is to it. Turn on your generator. If the amp draw shows negative switch the wires on the back of the ammeter. This will make it show positive amps. Simple, huh? Don't worry about the shunt, that is internal to the ammeter. Don't sweat the technical stuff.

The reason why there's a positive and a negative... an ammeter measures current flow. If you have a device that's drawing, using current it flows one way. If you have a device that's producing current it flows the other way. If your HHO ammeter normally shows 16 amps positive and then starts running negative, call me immediately. You have discovered cold fusion or something cool like that.

I've been thinking about an indicator that will tell me when the water level is getting low.

I can screw a small self-tapping stainless steel screw into the case at the desired water level. I can then fasten a voltmeter lead wire on the head of the screw on the outside of the box. That will keep me from having any kind of sensor on the inside of the box that might corrode. A $10.00 off-the-shelf volt meter is sufficient for this purpose.

I can also add water until my voltmeter registers, then add 4-6 more ounces. This way I will know that I've added enough water.

I know this will work because the water carries voltage that registers on the voltmeter when I dip the test probe in the water.

This will totally eliminate the need for leaky sight tubes, sight glasses, inspection covers etc...

[HHOhoper]

This is very similar to the ammeter I would like to put in my dash:

http://cgi.ebay.com/3-Digital-Blue-LED-DC-0-50A-Amp-Panel-Meter-Shunt_W0QQitemZ380048900509QQcmdZViewItem?hash=ite m380048900509&_trksid=p3286.m14.l1318

The only thing is that it has an external shunt and I'm not sure how those work.

Your idea about the screw to sense the water level is brilliant. That should work just fine!

[Smith03Jetta]

That Ebay ammeter thing should be hooked up the same way. The shunt is the thingy with the screws on it. Just cut your positive wire and put each end of the cut wire in each end of the "Shunt". That's really all there is to it.

JUST MAKE SURE THIS AMMETER WORKS ON 12 VOLT SYSTEMS. VERY IMPORTANT. That's why I chose to purchase mine at an auto parts store. Normally everything there is for 12 volts unless it is made specifically for a 24 or 36 volt diesel setup. Marine Supply stores are also good places to find the kinds of stuff we need.

When you wrote, "Brilliant", I thought about the Guinness commercials on TV.
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=guinness+brilliant+commercial&search_type=&aq=1&oq=guinness+brill

[daveczrn]

how goes the tuning smith.. and it does seem zerofossilfuel has come up with a efie setup that will work with toyota afr sensors.. should be starting to do my own tuning soon.

dave

[Smith03Jetta]

The tuning is coming along pretty good. I'm taking it slow and monitoring engine data after each adjustment. The main thing is I have to run a couple hundred miles of gas out of my car to be able to get an accurate MPG reading in between tweaks. If I had a real-time MPG meter like a scan gauge it would probably be easier for me. I tweaked the wrong way a couple attempts ago and reduced my gas mileage to 26 mpg. That sucked. I've since corrected that problem and brought my gas mileage back up past 30.5. I'm slowly changing the settings to get to 35 mpg. I've also disconnected my MAF enhancer and I'm trying to adjust for its absence with the ECU settings alone.

So far I'm not getting any error codes from my car's ECU other than a slow response message from my O2 Sensor. I tweaked the Lambda response setting yesterday so I'm not sure if I'll get that problem code again. I could make bigger tweaks at each adjustment interval but I'd rather play it safe and see a slow increase in my gas mileage rather than tweak too far and cause detonation in my cylinders from being TOO lean. My ECU will tell me if the mixture is too lean or too rich so that's a good thing...

When I first started tweaking the ECU I got some pinging on my valves under acceleration because I turned the timing the wrong way and set my ECU too lean for that condition. That turned on a LEAN FUEL MIXTURE error code. I fixed that problem and I have not got that error since.

[Dewayne]

Smith03jetta wrote "The shunt is the thingy with the screws on it."

A shunt for an ammeter is nothing more that a resistor. It is placed across the terminals of the meter. The resistor has to be matched to the meter for the correct reading.

[shortstack]

The tuning is coming along pretty good. I'm taking it slow and monitoring engine data after each adjustment. The main thing is I have to run a couple hundred miles of gas out of my car to be able to get an accurate MPG reading in between tweaks. If I had a real-time MPG meter like a scan gauge it would probably be easier for me. I tweaked the wrong way a couple attempts ago and reduced my gas mileage to 26 mpg. That sucked. I've since corrected that problem and brought my gas mileage back up past 30.5. I'm slowly changing the settings to get to 35 mpg. I've also disconnected my MAF enhancer and I'm trying to adjust for its absence with the ECU settings alone.

So far I'm not getting any error codes from my car's ECU other than a slow response message from my O2 Sensor. I tweaked the Lambda response setting yesterday so I'm not sure if I'll get that problem code again. I could make bigger tweaks at each adjustment interval but I'd rather play it safe and see a slow increase in my gas mileage rather than tweak too far and cause detonation in my cylinders from being TOO lean. My ECU will tell me if the mixture is too lean or too rich so that's a good thing...

When I first started tweaking the ECU I got some pinging on my valves under acceleration because I turned the timing the wrong way and set my ECU too lean for that condition. That turned on a LEAN FUEL MIXTURE error code. I fixed that problem and I have not got that error since.

do you have some pics of your current system (hho generator)

[daveczrn]

yes the pictures are in this thread.. he's using the Yellow case currently so look for those pictures.

[Smith03Jetta]

Boy do I ever have some photos. I think I have more photos than anybody else. Just search for "Yellow" or start reading at post # 190.

I took my car apart yesterday evening. The case is doing fine. I took some photos that I will post as soon as I can. After 2 1/2 weeks the Pelican case is holding up great. The Water/NaOH mixture is mostly clear. Any water discoloration is probably from my first attempt at using Sodium Bicarbonate on those same SS plates. I did not clean the plates very well when I switched electrolytes.

I made a few changes to my setup but nothing that affects gas output. I put in a filler tube so I won't have to keep disconnecting my gas tube to add water once a week. I also put in a simple indicator that will tell me when the water level drops too low. It is SIMPLY a stainless steel screw screwed into the top of the box. The SS screw extends down into the box a certain distance. I have a wire running from that screw to a green LED on my dash. The other side of the LED is attached to ground. When the water level drops below the screw the electrical current is interrupted and the green LED goes out. That is my signal to add more water. I just simply tapped into the voltage already in the water. I may add a resistor to the wire because the LED seems to be getting a little warm. I also added a SunPro volt meter and a large fuse (as shown in a previous post) to the system. I relocated the fuse and two gauges to the center of my car's dash and cleaned up my wiring a bit.. I also disconnected the MAF sensor enhancer. I'm solely relying on the adaptation of the ECU to control lean fuel ratios now.

[Smith03Jetta]

Here are the photos I promised of the case inspection and mods after 2 1/2 weeks of running it every day for a minimum of 1.5 hours. Total run time would be estimated at 25 to 30 hours.

the first photo is when I took the box out of the car. I drained half the water into the milk jug in the second photo for re-use. The third photo is the first time opening the box. the 4th photo is a closer look at the water and condition of the plates. The 5th photo is a closeup photo of the plates and plate separators to check on their condition.

[Smith03Jetta]

Here are some more...

1. Closeup of waterproof fitting from Home Depot Electrical aisle.
2. Photo of water filling fitting, 1/8 inch tubing. Kind of small but I don't want to add water too fast.
3. Photo of top of box with water level indicator installed.
4. Closeup of same.
5. Water Level indicator inside the lid. When the Water level goes down the LED on my dash will go out. It is powered from the voltage in the water.

[Smith03Jetta]

More of the same.

1. Photo of inside of box. Filler Tube.
2. Photo of box installed back under my bumper/fender well.

The filler tube is attached to a valve/filler funnel up higher in the car. I don't have photos yet.

[HHOhoper]

Smith, I'm sorry if you have this somewhere else, but I couldn't find it. What is the part number for your yellow box?

[Smith03Jetta]

The part number is on the little black sticker on top of the yellow box. It is a 1200. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I would like to get a deeper box if I could but I'm limited in space. You can go to http://www.pelican.com and browse their collection. You can also use their case calculator to find a case that is the perfect size for your electrolyzer.

I would recommend the model 1300. It is about the same width and height as mine but is 6.12 inches deep instead of 4.12. That would be absolutely perfect for a plate design like I'm using. If you order one request the 1300nf model "nf" means No Foam inside the case so you save a few bucks.

The case comes in Black, Silver, Orange, Yellow, OD Green, Desert Tan.

1300 Case Specifications
Exterior Dimensions (L x W x D)
10.62" x 9.68" x 6.87" (27 x 24.6 x 17.4 cm)

Interior Dimensions (L x W x D)
9.87" x 7.00" x 6.12" (25.1 x 17.8 x 15.5 cm)

Lid Depth Bottom Depth Total Depth
1.18" (3 cm) 4.93" (12.5 cm) 6.11" (15.5 cm)

Weight with Foam Weight without Foam Buoyancy Max.
3.53 lbs. (1.6 kg) 3.09 lbs. (1.4 kg) 12.35 lbs.
(5.6 kg)

Range Temperature
-10 / 210° F
(-23 / 99° C)

I would say that if anybody is serious about experimenting and wants a top-notch box, buy one of these Pelican cases. Don't just buy the first case you find. Measure carefully make a smart decision and then put out a few hard earned dollars on something substantial.

[cougar gt-e]

Mr Smith,

It looks like your plates are all running 12v across the gap, is that correct?

If not, HOW NOT. I've been playing and can't get any bubbling from "N" plates in a system that is non-isolated like yours. The current just goes thru the liquid to the other electrode.

Thanks
Packer Fan

[Smith03Jetta]

I'm not understanding your question, Cougar... The current is supposed to go through the water to the next plate. That's what causes the gas production. The way this system is set up is that the current flow is only through the water at the narrow gaps. There is an insignificant amount of current flow between the large gaps because electrickity will follow the path of least resistance, (AKA the bent tabs that are riveted or bolted together) instead of through the 1 inch water gap.

In short, here is another explanation of how my box works.

I have 10 pieces of 316L stainless inside my yellow box.
Each piece of stainless has 1(Single) cut in it so a tab can be bent out for connections.

(1) is a negative plate
(2) - (9) are used for ;)Neutral;) plates
(10) is a positive plate

The positive plate is not touching any other plates.
The negative plate is not touching any other plates.
The ;)neutral;) plates are attached in connected/non-connected pairs.

They are assembled inside the box in the following configuration

(1)Negative is zip tied to the first (2)Neutral plate. It is not touching it. There is a gap the width of a zip tie between the two plates.

(2)neutral is riveted/bolted to the next (3)neutral plate. These plates are physically touching each other through the bent tab where they are bolted/riveted. There is a gap of 1 inch here.

(3)neutral is zip tied to the next (4)neutral plate. It is not touching it. There is a gap the width of a zip tie between the two plates.

(4)neutral is riveted/bolted to the next (5)neutral plate. These plates are physically touching each other through the bent tab where they are bolted/riveted. There is a gap of 1 inch here.

(5)neutral is zip tied to the next (6)neutral plate. It is not touching it. There is a gap the width of a zip tie between the two plates.

(6)neutral is riveted/bolted to the next (7)neutral plate. These plates are physically touching each other through the bent tab where they are bolted/riveted. There is a gap of 1 inch here.

(7)neutral is zip tied to the next (8)neutral plate. It is not touching it. There is a gap the width of a zip tie between the two plates.

(8)neutral is riveted/bolted to the next (9)neutral plate. These plates are physically touching each other through the bent tab where they are bolted/riveted. There is a gap of 1 inch here.

(9)neutral is zip tied to (10)positive plate. It is not touching it. There is a gap the width of a zip tie between the two plates.

I hook up the case, add water and start adding electrolyte until it is pulling 16 amps. It's that simple. Each and every narrow gap is producing gas. The outer gaps are producing the most gas but as you can see from my photos on post#208 and my Youtube videos the interior gaps are doing just fine on their own.

[spob]

You can order the pelican cases from:

http://www.cases4less.com/

if you can't find them locally. For the case I've been looking at, it is the cheapest I've found.

[HHOhoper]

You can order the pelican cases from:

http://www.cases4less.com/

if you can't find them locally. For the case I've been looking at, it is the cheapest I've found.

Great site!

[spob]

Where can I get that attachment for my truck? I guess that would be better than running under water.

[HHOhoper]

I've found a historical Volkswagen that runs on water.

http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-stuv/VW-Water-Vehicle-Type-166.jpg

I have to disagree. From the look of that picture it looks like it runs IN water. :p

[Smith03Jetta]

I'm driving my Touareg today because I had to pull a trailer. It sucks because I'm not doing any mileage testing today... Withdrawals...:mad::mad::mad:

[cougar gt-e]

Mr SMith,

My smack stack only produces bubbles on the outsides of the outside plates. Poorly at that too. The distance between the plates is about 1/8 inch and the total thickness is about 1.5 inch. The current is happy as a democrat spending tax dollars going around the stack.

Have you measured the voltage between each of your plates? Just curious as to the details of successful units!

Packer Fan

[Smith03Jetta]

Cougar, Do you have some photos of the plates in action? Producing bubbles right after it's turned on like some of my photos a few pages back? I'm guessing that your problem could be caused by several things.

Bubbles are being produced on the outside of the outside plates? That just don't make no sense? Bubbles should only be forming between plates at the narrow gaps.

Your plate gaps should be closer together. 1/8 is too far apart in my opinion.

I'm thinking that you are shorting across your plates. Possibly through the stainless steel plates. Could be the SS nuts are shorting out your plates. Putting together a smack stack can be complicated.

If you are not getting very many bubbles but are pulling high amps, I'm thinking that you have a short in your cell and you don't have enough electrolyte in your water. Both things are quite likely.

The only thing that should be producing gas is the gaps between non-connected plates. The gap between neg-neutral should be producing. The gaps between non-connected neutrals should be producing. The gaps between the pos-neutral should be producing.

I've never had this problem with the smack stack before. The problem that I had when I built one was pulling too many amps using Baking Soda and wires melting, spacer washers melting, rubber insulating grommets melting, PVC pipe melting. You get the idea... I got a ton of gas and good gas mileage while it lasted but the cell burned itself up.

[cougar gt-e]

I'll see about snapping a shot. Raining now.

I've ohmed the stack when dry. more than meg ohm between each plate (I think it's ohming me more than the plates).

I put 1 then 2 cap fulls (about 4 tablespoons total) of 100% pure lye into 1/2 gallon water. Pulls about 4-6 amps and gets HOT overnight about 170F so most of the energy is going into heat not gas.

I have tried to seal up the edges with silicone caulk as had been mentioned here, but that does not seem to help and it's far from sealed.

While not a great result, it does point to series design being better. I'll be making one of them soon. My initial idea isn't as good as my current one...

[Smith03Jetta]

it is really hard to tell what your problem is without seeing your stack. have you posted any photos on this forum already? You should not be registering on the ohm-meter across the plates out of water. They shouldn't be touching...

[Smith03Jetta]

I've put a few new movies on Youtube. I was just out having some fun with my little boy. We decided to video our fun to share with the world.

In the first video I demonstrate what happens when you like just the oxygen bubbles vs the Hydrogen/Oxygen bubbles.

The second video is pure hydrogen being produced without the help of electricity. Using a thick piece of aluminum from a motorcycle submerged in water and Sodium Hydroxide/Potassium Hydroxide mix. Again, No Electricity and no or very little Oxygen. Decent production though...

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nAWztKpOrgE"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nAWztKpOrgE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed> </object>

<object width="425" height="350"> <param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/UHqyu9ADPxk"> </param> <embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/UHqyu9ADPxk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="350"> </embed> </object>

[goatherder]

Hello all and especially Mr. Smith:

I've just sat here for the last three hours reading this post. Hats off. Very interesting. I'm a brand nubian where HHO is concerned and this is the first post I've found that chronicled somebody starting from the beginning and ending up with something workable. Increased my whole understanding of the concept immensely.

Good choice on the case BTW...I use Pelican cases for saddlebags on my dirtbike. I've crashed pretty hard and never ruined a case. Ruined the mounting hardware but not the case itself.

Couple of questions for you or anyone who knows:

1. This drain cleaner that you're adding to the water to create the electrolyte; what happens to that as the water is consumed? Seems like some pretty caustic stuff - is that stuff flashing off and going into your engine? I assume that when you top up the yellow tank that you're adding premixed electrolyte and not just distilled water like you would to a battery?

2. I drive a F350 w/7.3L Diesel. If I wanted to build a generator for this engine how much gas production would I need to have something that would be worth the effort? Is there any rule-of-thumb for LPM vs displacement?

3. If I copied your 10-plate array but used bigger plates would it take more amps to drive the array of bigger plates (assuming the same electrolyte concentration?)

4. If I doubled the example above, and connected two such arrays in parallel, would the amperage required double? Would the gas production (in theory) double?

5. Is this worth doing for a diesel engine?

[Smith03Jetta]

Some of your questions I can't answer because I've never built a bigger plate. Just building a generator twice the size would not instantly double the amp draw. The amp draw is something that increases all by itself as you add more and more electrolyte (NaOH, KOH) to your water. I wanted to get near 1 liter of gas per minute so I kept adding NaOH until my ammeter showed 16 amps. At 16 amps I was putting out over 800 ml/minute. I stopped there and let the plates "condition". After a couple days my case was putting out 920 ml/minute with no additional NaOH. That amount is probably plenty for my car so I stopped there. The best thing I can recommend is build one and see what happens. There is one thing that seems true, however, the more surface area the more gas is produced.

I can recommend that you keep the plate gaps the same as mine. The wide gap is important for cooling and voltage control. The narrow gap is important for good gas production.

The problem that I see with some people's bench tests is that they put a small fixed amount of electrolyte in their water and hook up the electricity. Then they bump up the amps with their electronic equipment to get the amount of gas they want. It just doesn't work exactly that way in real life in cars. Most installed setups in cars don't have an adjustable amp draw just by turning a knob. In real life you hook up the wires and add electrolyte until the amp draw gets to where you want it.

When I top off the water, I'm just adding distilled water. The NaOH is not consumed in the HHO reaction. That's how a catalyst works. It helps a reaction along without being changed itself. As the water level drops the ratio of NaOH to water increases. When you add water the ratio goes back to normal.

You may need to occasionally add some more electrolyte as some settles out or whatever but not every time you need to top off the water.

BTW, it IS worth doing for a Diesel Engine. The better the beginning mileage the better the result.

[goatherder]

I' ll get on it soon. Found a 1430 Pelican for $57 at cases4less thats about 13"W x 5"L x 10.5" deep, a tall skinny case that looks to be the ticket for holding in the water. Maybe I can get two arrays of plates into that at about 4.5" x 9" on the plate size or so. I'll wire it in parallel and hook it all together with stainless strap. Or so I thinks.

I'll also fire up the belt sander and give the plates a nice cross-hatch to rough them up and make it more difficult for those little bubbles to cling to the plates. My truck's suspension should aid in shaking them loose too. It sure does my kidneys...

Hopefully this will work out better than the propane injection did.

Thanks again for the info.

Goatherder

[Smith03Jetta]

You're welcome. I purchased a new 1300 Pelican case yesterday for my Touareg. It like my 1200 but deeper. I plan to build a new generator with a modified design similar to my other one but with no rivets or other metal connectors inside the box. Simplicity will be the key. I have found a sheet of stainless steel I've had laying around my shop and forgot about it. It's 18 gauge 316L. I'll have an update soon.

Instead of 10 short plates with half of the negatives connected, I'll try using 6 plates instead. There will be 2 short plates for the negative/positive plates and I'll create 4 extra long plates for the negatives and bend them around on themselves in a the following configuration.

~-____________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;____________________
&nbsp;/
|
|
|
&nbsp;\ ____________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;____________________
&nbsp;/
|
|
|
&nbsp;\____________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;____________________
&nbsp;/
|
|
|
&nbsp;\____________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;____________________
&nbsp;/
|
|
|
&nbsp;\____________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;____________________
__+


Or this modified design:

~-____________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;____________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;____________________/
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;____________________
&nbsp;/
|
|
|
&nbsp;\____________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;____________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;\
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;|
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;____________________/
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;____________________
&nbsp;/
|
|
|
&nbsp;\____________________
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;____________________
__+



so I won't have to worry about rivets, bolts or anything else inside the case. Zip ties and Steel Plates. Genius? Maybe? I call it efficient cost cutting.

[goatherder]

Yep...makes lots of sense. Know what else you could do?

Make two such arrays, then lay them facing each other open-side to...then shove them together so they are nested with the open sides intermeshed and closed sides opposing and you've got dual-density in just a little more space. (volume)

I know the skinny gaps (between the neutrals) are critical at about 3mm but what about the wide gaps? How much would you have to widen the Neutral U's in order to have enough space between the legs for proper clearance? (for the skinny-gap pair from the opposing array to go between them)

Or would this just muck everything up?

[goatherder]

http://picasaweb.google.com/oh.u8it2/UhMe/photo#5230289443835455010

[Smith03Jetta]

Microthermalturboflux Friggenometer?

I do like the name at least.

[goatherder]

Or would the two arrays cause interference thus negating some of each other's efficiency?

Hey, I had to call it something. When I uploaded the image it asked for a caption.

[daveczrn]

http://picasaweb.google.com/oh.u8it2/UhMe/photo#5230289443835455010



have you tried that design yet? i think the production wouldn't be as great as the plumabob/smith design setup.

the current would have an easier time just jumping to the plates that are closer to the + side coming from the positive side. and easier to continue on to the - plates coming from the negitive side.

I have learned it's better to force the current to go through opposing plates than to give it an easy way out so to speak.

[daveczrn]

wow.... looks really good. keep up the good work

[Smith03Jetta]

Simple, clean, easy to build, Like I said, I'm lazy. Necessity may be the mother of invention but Laziness, next to necessity is the step-mother of invention.

Photos of my latest Plate Build has moved to the Touareg Thread.... See you there...

[EltonBrandd]

Mr. Smith, do you know of any calculations to determine amp draw based on surface area? I heard if you have too much surface area it can be hard to control your amperage? :confused: Just a thought. I really liked the Microthermalturboflux Friggenometer prototype.

[goatherder]

You might just disregard the Friggenometer. It would probably just interfere with itself too much. I might give it a try though...after I get one of Mr Smith's designs working. I need more gas than 1-1.5 LPM for a 7.3L engine anyway...so more than one such array is in the cards for me.

But I can't get started on this for at least another week. I have to get home first. I'm a long way from home.

As I write this, I'm driving a 300ft fishing boat and I'm dragging a trawl net thru the Aleutian Islands, catching deepwater flounder. That's right Sea Shepherd...I'm raping the ocean. Been doing it for 25 years...and there's still LOTS of fish left out here. Go figure.

BUT - I'm going to come home and make me an HHO generator so's I can burn less fossil fuel and do my part to save the planet...because I believe in environmental responsibility.

How do you like them apples?

[goatherder]

The new design looks good Mr Smith. I intend to shamelessly copy it.

Do you think that, in order to generate enough gas to feel my 7.3, I should just supersize your design...or do you think multiple cells would be in order?

I really hope this proves beneficial. Aside from the truck, I've got a 36ft boat with two 454's that gets 1mpg. Even a 20% improvement would be a big help on that thing.

[EltonBrandd]

You might just disregard the Friggenometer. It would probably just interfere with itself too much. I might give it a try though...after I get one of Mr Smith's designs working. I need more gas than 1-1.5 LPM for a 7.3L engine anyway...so more than one such array is in the cards for me.

But I can't get started on this for at least another week. I have to get home first. I'm a long way from home.

As I write this, I'm driving a 300ft fishing boat and I'm dragging a trawl net thru the Aleutian Islands, catching deepwater flounder. That's right Sea Shepherd...I'm raping the ocean. Been doing it for 25 years...and there's still LOTS of fish left out here. Go figure.

BUT - I'm going to come home and make me an HHO generator so's I can burn less fossil fuel and do my part to save the planet...because I believe in environmental responsibility.

How do you like them apples?

Lets respect Mr. Smith's thread and stay on the subject.

[Smith03Jetta]

That's OK. I have spent my share of time behind a cedar steering wheel. I lived in Mobile Alabama and ran shrimp boats out of Bayou La Batre for several years. I've caught my share of Shrimp, Flounder, Blue Crab, Oysters, etc.. The high cost of fuel is really hurting the seafood market in the USA. Hurricane Katrina also damaged the infrastructure for processing caught seafood. Seafood is less expensive caught in other countries like Viet Nam and South American countries.

Copy my design. That's why I posted it. If I had a brain in my head I would hole up in my garage and build something and put out a cheezy "As Seen On TV" website and make 4.53 million dollars. Instead I stick it out on this forum with the hope that I can figure out this and help some "Regular" guys.

I have not hooked electricity up to my latest plate design yet to measure output, amp draw etc. I do believe that there is probably a limit to how big this particular plate design can be and still be efficient. I would think that a couple smaller isolated plate arrays would be able to perform better than with one large array.

I will do some voltage drop measurements with this setup.

I'm building this particular electrolyzer to put it in my VW Touareg V6. This vehicle has in-dash gas mileage readouts. It will show instantaneous MPG and average MPG. It also shows how many miles I have left on this tank of gas. I'm currently getting 18 to 19 mpg around town and on my last 400+ mile trip driving 64 mph on the interstate I was able to get 22 to 23 mpg consistently. I get 15-16 mpg pulling a trailer. These numbers have been consistent for almost 70,000 miles. I'm thinking about starting a new thread for this second vehicle just to be able to keep things straight. I'll be challenged on the Touareg testing. This vehicle is my Wife's primary vehicle. I've got to make this installation user friendly and maintenance free. If the HHO is to help gas mileage it must also be low/maintenance and safe for the average consumer. My wife is a great example of the average consumer. She's afraid to drive the lawn mower. She doesn't like to add Wiper fluid. She can't change a tire. She knows how to put gas in the gas tank. That's about the limit of her mechanical knowledge. She also told me yesterday that she didn't want a bunch of wires and goofy looking gauges stuck on the dash. I would expect that response from the average consumer.

[LinChiek]

hi smith...!

maybe u would like to try this design... very compact and capable of producing more than 1 lpm of Brown's Gas.....

here's zerofossilfuel design.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?p=1F39DF2164DAD6A0&index=0&feature=PlayList&v=QpQHIO2kw58

here's his method to measure the production of HHO / Brown's Gas / H2(g) + O2(g)........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pjvxlUJU6w&feature=PlayList&p=1F39DF2164DAD6A0&index=1

[Smith03Jetta]

I hope the photos with the measuring tape helps you get the approximate dimensions. If you want to duplicate this design I would highly suggest you start by looking at your car and determining the size and shape of your container first. Then purchase a suitable case. Build your plates to fit the container. Keep the basic principles. Exact measurements are not as important. What is important is the gap spacing and surface area.

After building and testing several designs I'm 95% sure that this design is the simplest, least complicated design to make. No moving parts, no nuts, no bolts, no washers, no grommets, very little drilling no wasted space, low heat, decent output, scalable, you get the idea.

[greuvin]

Hi Mr. Smith!
Wondering if you ever completed the mileage testing in your Jetta?

Your design looks great. So happy you are posting your results and the pics.

[Smith03Jetta]

hi smith...!

maybe u would like to try this design... very compact and capable of producing more than 1 lpm of Brown's Gas.....

here's zerofossilfuel design.....
here's his method to measure the production of HHO / Brown's Gas / H2(g) + O2(g)........


Thanks. That is an interesting design but it's over complicated in my opinion. I'm sure because of the close plate spacing it will get really hot and pull lots of amps to get the 1+ liter/minute. I can get 1 liter/minute out of my current design and it runs cooler than my bath water.

SS plates will not last forever and building/replacing a complicated cell like that does not look like a pleasurable endeavor.

How many hours do you think it would take to build one like that from Zero Fossil Fuels. It took me about 3 hours from start to finish to make mine. That's cutting the plates with a band saw, sanding, drilling and assembly.

[goatherder]

I guess you know the score then. In 2000 I was recovering from a motorcycle crash and couldn’t work up here for a while, and was tired of the cold anyway, so I went down to LA and ran a commercial dive boat for a few months. Those guys commercial fishing down there were struggling even then. I can only imagine how bad things are after Katrina and Rita, and then the fuel prices on top of it. Maybe they all need HHO.

Our last fuel bill at Dutch Harbor was $326,000 for just a top-off, about 1/3. We’re now paying $255/ton to ship our product to the Asian markets…so fuel prices are certainly impacting us too. Hasn’t done us in yet though; we’ve sold $20M worth of fish so far this year.

I’m going to copy your design, the simplicity is beautiful. I may supersize it to accommodate the greater needs of my truck, and maybe make more than one cell. I’ll probably mount it in the box behind the cab, and maybe use a bilge blower fan from West Marine (which is made for evacuating explosive fumes, no?) to scavenge the gas and shove it into the intake tube.

On second thought…maybe I should just lash the thing down in the bed until I determine that it’s not a bomb. If that thing were to leak, fill the toolbox with gas and then ignite it might kill everybody in the truck. Ventilation might be prudent.

Some Ford Superduty trucks came with dual alternators (for ambulance use) so that could be an option if the amp draw becomes excessive. I'm not sure that the existing unit will put enough juice to generate the required gas and still be able to run the truck's electricals.

Miscellaneous thoughts.

Ok, back to work for me. I’m towing the net in 365fms of water with 1050fms of mainwire out, and the bottom’s kinda sticky. Time to haul back and see what I got. Last tow was 80 tons for about 2 hrs. There is a bunch of fishing pictures on that same site as that Friggenometer thing, if you’re interested. You have to click “public albums” or something.

Actually, here a link: http://picasaweb.google.com/oh.u8it2

[Smith03Jetta]

Here's what some of you guys have been waiting a LONG time to hear. HHO IS A SCAM. I blew up my engine on the way to work this morning. A connector rod (Piston Rod) went right through one of my pistons. The piston just shattered.

[LinChiek]

Here's what some of you guys have been waiting a LONG time to hear. HHO IS A SCAM. I blew up my engine on the way to work this morning. A connector rod went right through one of my pistons. The piston just shattered.

:eek: u must be joking?! how did the connector rod get to ur piston? :rolleyes:

[Smith03Jetta]

No, that was just a joke...:D

There has been no engine damage whatsoever. I've been waiting a while to post my MPG gains and here they are.

Mixed driving MPG = 32 mpg.

This is an improvement from 24 mpg.

The increase is 33% better gas mileage.

I still have more adjustments that I can make to my car's ECU to improve this number but I will be taking it pretty slow on the Jetta from here on out. I will be focusing more on my Touareg for a few weeks. I will continue to post information on this thread as it becomes available but please follow my other adventure. I'm sure there's a lot more to learn.

Thanks for following this thread. I know it's been long but it's been worth it.

Attached is a graph I made to demonstrate my MPG improvements. The In-town and highway mileage numbers are interpolated (mathematically derived) based on the ratios of before mileage numbers. The in-town and highway mileage numbers are considered accurate to withing 2 mpg.

[greuvin]

Beautiful. I've been waiting for your results to decide whether to continue or not. My first set-up was a failure. I was so disappopinted but now I feel there is hope. Thanks, Mr. Smith.

[LinChiek]

No, that was just a joke...

There has been no engine damage whatsoever. I've been waiting a while to post my MPG gains and here they are.

Mixed driving MPG = 32 mpg.

This is an improvement from 24 mpg.

The increase is 33% better gas mileage.

I still have more adjustments that I can make to my car's ECU to improve this number but I will be taking it pretty slow on the Jetta from here on out. I will be focusing more on my Touareg for a few weeks. I will continue to post information on this thread as it becomes available but please follow my other adventure. I'm sure there's a lot more to learn.

Thanks for following this thread. I know it's been long but it's been worth it.

Attached is a graph I made to demonstrate my MPG improvements. The In-town and highway mileage numbers are interpolated (derived) based on the ratios of before mileage numbers. The in-town and highway mileage numbers are considered accurate to withing 2 mpg.since it's a joke, what ur precaution to prevent the connector from getting to the piston? did u use something to tie it properly? :confused:

[Smith03Jetta]

Some people call the Piston Shaft a Con-Rod (Connector Rod). If the shaft cracks it can easily go through a piston. I've seen it before. The last time I saw it was in a lawn mower engine in a go-cart.

[Painless]

Here's what some of you guys have been waiting a LONG time to hear. HHO IS A SCAM. I blew up my engine on the way to work this morning. A connector rod (Piston Rod) went right through one of my pistons. The piston just shattered.

Thanks for that, I just officially soiled myself upon reading your post. No more baked beans in jalepeno sauce for me.


No, that was just a joke...

There has been no engine damage whatsoever. I've been waiting a while to post my MPG gains and here they are.

Mixed driving MPG = 32 mpg.

This is an improvement from 24 mpg.

The increase is 33% better gas mileage.

Awesome! So glad to be hearing of such great results!

[Smith03Jetta]

I promised some more photos of the Ammeter, fuse and other things. Here they are...

Photos:

1. This is a photo of the hose going into my air plenum.
2. This is a photo of my temporary water trap.
3. This is my filler spout/valve for adding water when it is needed.
4. This is a photo of my general under-hood area.
5. This is a photo of my Odometer for some stupid reason. I can't remember why I took it.

[Smith03Jetta]

Some more photos...

Photos:

1. This is a downward photo showing the fill spout and other tubes.
2. This is my Goofy gauge configuration on my dash. The fuse is right there where I can see it if it blows.
3. This is a closeup of my ammeter and volt-meter with the unit producing gas.
4. This is a closeup of teh 40 amp fuse. I didn't see the point in putting in a smaller fuse. If the unit shorts out it will blow the fuse anyway.
5. This is another view of my tacky setup.

[Smith03Jetta]

A couple more photos.

Photos:

1. This photo shows the LED. This indicates that my Water level is where it should be. If the light goes out that means my water level has dropped and needs refilling.
2. This shows the gauges with the unit turned off.

After I took the photo of the LED, I switched from a LED to a small light bulb. The LED burned out for some reason. I thought it was getting too hot.

[Smith03Jetta]

I have an update. By manipulating the Adaptation channels on the ECU, I have been able to effectively lean out my engine to achieve some gas mileage results. I tried several things but eventually I came back to the following settings.

Idle Speed Offset: I increased it + 40 rpms to offset some undesired low idle experienced after leaning out my fuel.

I changed the Acceleration adaptation channel from 100% to 98.4%.

I changed the Deceleration adaptation channel from 100% to 95.3%.

I changed the Startup Fuel Enrich to 102% from 100%.
I changed the Warmup Fuel Enrich to 102% from 100%
I did these two intentional adustments to richen up the startup fuel mixture and the warmup fuel mixture. This will help keep the engine from starting and warming up in a lean condition until the HHO starts flowing at a decent level. After I changed these settings I noticed that the engine started better in the mornings.

I changed the Secondary Fuel adaptation channel (Additive Fuel) from 100% to 95.3%.

I changed the Primary Fuel adaptation channel (Multiplicative Fuel) from 0 to -19.9% (Negative). If you think about it, the purpose of adding HHO is to allow you to lean out your fuel mixture or in plain English (Use less gas per mile). The max ranges on this adaptation channel are -25 to +25.

I did not really see significant gas mileage savings until I surpassed -15% on my Primary Fuel Adaptation channel. After -15% I started to see my gas mileage go up. My last post was 32 mpg with the AC on, mixed city and highway mileage. Highway speeds about 65 mph average. Hot days, no rain. Tire pressure about 5 psi above recommended inflation.

I also adjusted the Lambda sensor timing to return a signal faster. I also raised the speed limiter to it's max. Most passenger cars have a 115 mph speed limiter. I can now drive 78 mph/127 kph faster than the old factory speed limiter. If I need to outrun somebody, now I can do it. Assuming I have the horsepower. I might want to richen up the mixture if I plan to go fast. I don't want to go into detonation. The Ratio of HHO to gas would be pretty thin at Higher RPMS.

I did not adjust the ignition timing offset. I tried adjusting this in both directions but I either got loss of power, loss of gas mileage, rough running engine, misfire or valve noise.

[HHOhoper]

Mr. Smith,

I have a question for you. In post #338 you said, "The neutral plates are attached in connected/non-connected pairs." Can you explain that for me a little more? I'm not sure what you meant by connected/non-connected.

I'm really getting discouraged with this whole thing. I built my third attempt and went to KOH instead of baking soda and can't for the life of me make anything that will produce more than 100-200 LPM's. :mad: I'm to the point to where I think I just need to find a design that has been proven and then copy it to a T.

[Smith03Jetta]

Every other plate is touching. That's what I mean. Go back and look intently at my photos. Also look at my videos. Everywhere that's making gas is NOT touching. The plates being REALLY close together is what makes gas. The plates that are touching but have a 1 inch gap between them creates a voltage barrier that brings down heat in the cell. If this is too confusing for you then go look at my Touareg Post. It is definitely easier to understand and build. It also makes more gas too. First attempt with only a partial water level produced 1.14 liters per minute. It sounds like bacon frying it's making so much gas. WHO HOO!!!

[Smith03Jetta]

1 month using the Pelican 1200 case with no problems. It is not leaking, melting, cracking or otherwise causing any problems. The plate setup I'm using is not getting hot either. That's pretty cool.

[Smith03Jetta]

I did go TOO lean this weekend with my computer settings. It kicked out a LEAN FUEL mixture error code. At the same time my engine would hardly run at all once when I cranked it. I was at -25% lean. I tuned it back to -21% lean and it seems to be running fine now with no error codes. I think I will not be able to hit the 35% fuel mileage increase I was hoping for. I'm currently hovering at 32% to 33% increase.

[Smith03Jetta]

I ran the car too far lean last time so my ECU coded out on me. When it coded, the fuel defaults took over and my MPG sucked as a result. I got 29 mpg last fill-up.

I'm changing strategy a little bit to see what kind of results I get.

I've set all the fuel settings back to their factory defaults. I'm no longer forcing a lean fuel situation.

I've changed the ignition timing to be 10 degrees closer to top dead center. I'm test driving it right now to determine the difference in MPG. I'll report back soon enough. I've driven it for 2 days with no Error Codes.

This is something that I can also test in my Touareg and get real time MPG numbers. I reported back that the addition of 1.5 liters of HHO instantly reduced my MPG on the Touareg with no ECU Mods.

Another test that I'm considering is to restrict the current on my generators to produce less HHO and see what effect it has.

[HHOhoper]

We just got our 1300 pelican box- VERY nice! Once we get that built I try to post pics and results.

[BoyntonStu]

I ran the car too far lean last time so my ECU coded out on me. When it coded, the fuel defaults took over and my MPG sucked as a result. I got 29 mpg last fill-up.

I'm changing strategy a little bit to see what kind of results I get.

I've set all the fuel settings back to their factory defaults. I'm no longer forcing a lean fuel situation.

I've changed the ignition timing to be 10 degrees closer to top dead center. I'm test driving it right now to determine the difference in MPG. I'll report back soon enough. I've driven it for 2 days with no Error Codes.

This is something that I can also test in my Touareg and get real time MPG numbers. I reported back that the addition of 1.5 liters of HHO instantly reduced my MPG on the Touareg with no ECU Mods.

Another test that I'm considering is to restrict the current on my generators to produce less HHO and see what effect it has.

I C&P this from another experimenter.::::


In my mind the quicker burning of fuel because of the HHO should
require some timing adjustments other wise it seems we just wont be
getting the full advantage of this new fuel we are using.
I'm looking for advice on optimizing timing when using HHO boosters.
This is what I'm thinking could be done to get us in the ball park,
kind of a rule of thumb. I'm an old school mechanic so I could be way
off.

1. Find the recommended timing for your vehicle (say the book
says 12 degrees BTDC )
2. Start your car, and advance the timing until you hear
knocking from Detonation. Note how far advancement it took for this
to happen (say 18 BTDC )
3. subtract the two, this is the number we need ( it took 6
degrees to start knocking)
4. Retard timing to where you think it should be when running
HHO ( say 8 BTDC)
5. Start the HHO generator.
6. Repeat step 2. Advance timing until it starts to knock from
detonation (Just like step 2 but with HHO on. Say it now knocks at 11
BTDC)
7. Now retard the timing the amount that you got from Step 3 (6
degrees so your new timing When running HHO should be 5 degrees BTDC)

Do any mechanic type folks think this makes since or is there a
better way?

I hope that this helps.

BoyntonStu

[mario brito]

One question :

Why do we need to find the first difference ?

Why not just retard the BTDC untill we ear no longer the knocking ?

I'm not a mechanic, so I'm not judging your explanation. I just want to understand the logic behind it :)

Thanks

[BoyntonStu]

One question :

Why do we need to find the first difference ?

Why not just retard the BTDC untill we ear no longer the knocking ?

I'm not a mechanic, so I'm not judging your explanation. I just want to understand the logic behind it :)

Thanks

Mario,

You have to read a little bit more carefully.

It was not my explanation or opinion.

As I stated, I C&P the article.

(Copied and Pasted.)

BoyntonStu

[mario brito]

Mario,

You have to read a little bit more carefully.

It was not my explanation or opinion.

As I stated, I C&P the article.

(Copied and Pasted.)

BoyntonStu

Oh..... Really ? damn...

So.... you too don't know the answer, right ?

Thanks

[HHOhoper]

Smitty, you're a genius!! Pa and I built one just like yours with the 1300 Pelican box and it works like a charm! I made a new thread with pics and details! Thanks for sharing everything!

[Smith03Jetta]

You are welcome.

[Smith03Jetta]

I had a problem with my car today.:eek: I don't think it has anything to do with HHO but a problem none-the-less. I almost wrecked because of it.

I was descending down a curvy mountain road and about half way down my brake booster went out. I barely touched the brake petal and it made a "Swoosh" sucking sound and the petal went to the floor. Being a drive by wire car it scared the heck out of me. I got brake pressure back but only after I took the car out of gear. The reduction in engine vacuum allowed what was left of the brake booster to get me off the mountain safely.

It seriously freaked me out but my quick analytical thinking came up with a solution quickly. I guess I could have used the emergency brake if I had too.

What freaked me out was that I only "Touched" the brake petal and if felt like somebody stomped my brakes to the floor. My brakes were either 100% or nothing.... No in between. The braking locked up my wheels for a split second, sending shudders throughout my car. Felt like somebody in another car ran into me.

New Brake Booster? $110.00. Peace of mind? Priceless!

Oh, by the way, I'm not running my HHO into my Vacuum lines, only my air intake.

[BoyntonStu]

I had a problem with my car today.:eek: I don't think it has anything to do with HHO but a problem none-the-less. I almost wrecked because of it.

I was descending down a curvy mountain road and about half way down my brake booster went out. I barely touched the brake petal and it made a "Swoosh" sucking sound and the petal went to the floor. Being a drive by wire car it scared the heck out of me. I got brake pressure back but only after I took the car out of gear. The reduction in engine vacuum allowed what was left of the brake booster to get me off the mountain safely.

It seriously freaked me out but my quick analytical thinking came up with a solution quickly. I guess I could have used the emergency brake if I had too.

What freaked me out was that I only "Touched" the brake petal and if felt like somebody stomped my brakes to the floor. My brakes were either 100% or nothing.... No in between. The braking locked up my wheels for a split second, sending shudders throughout my car. Felt like somebody in another car ran into me.

New Brake Booster? $110.00. Peace of mind? Priceless!

Oh, by the way, I'm not running my HHO into my Vacuum lines, only my air intake.

Wow! That ride was not for the faint hearted.

Great thinking and quick action made your day.

A friend of mine was riding down a mountain and the steering wheel that he had just installed, came off in his hands. Luckily, he pushed it back on and he made it to tell the tale.

What a nut! (Or lack thereof.)


BoyntonStu

[Smith03Jetta]

Ok, I have something to report. I'll have photos later. As I mentioned, my Brake booster went out this week. I bought a new booster today and I've spent most of the morning taking the old one out and putting a new one in.

To get to the Brake booster I had to remove the entire air filter box, air plenum and lots of other things. I had to disconnect my HHO intake hose, etc.

I immediately noticed a white residue in the bottom of my air plenum. I also noticed where it had pooled up and run into my air filter. It stained my air filter element. I don't like what I'm seeing there. It looks like some of the NaOH is coming out with the HHO gas into my intake plenum and moisture is pooling up inside my plastic air plenum. That condensate is leaking in through the bottom of my air intake valve and back into my filter housing. I don't see any damage right now but I'll give you guys some photos so you can see what it is doing.

Stay tuned.

[Painless]

Are you getting any foaming in your electrolyte? Sounds like you need a bubbler to me.

Check out RadGenH2O's video from about 2:31 onwards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS_4v7M-cp4&feature=user

[Smith03Jetta]

I mentioned in an earlier post that I had to get under my hood to replace my brake booster this weekend. I found another significant problem when I was putting everything back together...

This one was not caused by HHO but it may have been effecting my fuel mileage Big Time...

The vacuum hose connecting my fuel pressure regulator to my Intake Manifold was hanging loose. I think it came loose a while back when I was working on my car. Possibly when I was hooking up my gas line heater. Who knows how long it's been effecting my performance.

It looks like I will need to go back and do another round of tests. A non-functioning fuel pressure regulator can cause a rich fuel mixture, bad idle, and other things. I know that I've been experiencing bad idle and stupid acceleration.

Foaming? I think that the sediment in my air intake is left over from when I was using Baking Soda. I cleaned it out. I will run it longer and see what happens.

[HHOhoper]

Smith, are you currently not using bubblers?

[Stevo]

I hear that Dihydrogen Monoxide stuff that we are dealing with can be deadly. Regardless of what you may think, Dihydrogen Monoxide is in our electrolyte bath. I hear that on average, 9 people a day in the United states die from ingesting this terrible stuff. Of all the children who die between the age of 1 and 4, 1/4 die from ingesting this stuff. 19 percent of the deaths from this stuff in public facilities have been incidents where safety personnel have been standing by. A child is 14% more likely to die from ingesting this stuff than by being killed in a car wreck.:eek:

Sorry, just did a little reading.

http://www.google.com/search?q=Dihydrogen+Monoxide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihydrogen_monoxide_hoax


Well if people didn't inhale that dihydrogen monoxide they would be fine, drink it don't inhale it..... ;)

Must have been the same sort of people who decided to scam people into thinking they can power their cars with water, a pickle jar and some SS wire. LOL! :D

[Smith03Jetta]

I've decided that this DiHydrogen Monoxide stuff is way too dangerous for my kids. I now give them my leftover electrolysis water instead. Again, Way too Dangerous.

Enough Jokes: I found a problem with my car. I had a bad Coolant Temperature Sender (Sensor). This causes bad idle and it also tells the computer that the car is running hotter than normal. The computer responds by sending more gasoline to the cylinders to help cool the cylinders down. Can you spell R-I-C-H?

Now that I've changed the $7.00 part out, I'll run another test. This is not the same sensor that powers the dash gauge. That temp gauge on the dash is perfectly fine. The sensor that went bad only sends a signal straight to the ECU for fuel management. AAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!

[Haywire Haywood]

Just a side note about your sig... the "no ecu mods" line is a little misleading as you are doing with your software and laptop what most do with the EFIE box, that is, leaning out the engine.

Not a dig, just an observation from reading your threads.
Ian

[Smith03Jetta]

Haywire, The TOUAREG has NO ECU mods. That is a very true statement. I tried ECU mods but I got nowhere with it. I set everything back to factory settings and hooked up the HHO only. I'm also not using any O2 Extenders or EFIE or MAF or anything else on that vehicle. Nothing whatsoever...

My Jetta is another story. I've been playing around with the ECU on that car. I have had several setbacks however on that car. I realized only this week that the Vacuum hose had cracked and come off my Fuel Pressure Regulator. I have no idea how long this has been happening. I noticed an error code related to this several months ago but it was vague and intermittent and I had trouble finding it. I also had a bad Coolant Temperature sensor. I started getting an error code on this about 3 or 4 months ago. I noticed that as soon as I got this error code my mileage started sucking. Both of those problems have been making my car run like crap lately. I fixed both of those problems now and my car is running like new. I've not had a chance to go back and do any MPG tests with HHO now that both of those problems have been fixed. I'll report something back at the end of this week for sure.

[Haywire Haywood]

Hmm.. I thought you were leaning it out with the computer settings, driving and changing things on the fly with the laptop connected. Perhaps I misread or misunderstood something.

Ian

[Smith03Jetta]

I'm not capable of changing ECU settings while driving. In order to make ECU changes I must turn my car off, turn the key back on with the engine off. I read the current settings to the software, make any needed changes and then send the changed settings back to a memory location in the car's computer but not in the ECU. The ignition must then be turned off and back on for the ECU to read these new adaptation channel settings. These are the same memory locations that are used to store sensor information.

The true ECU settings have never been touched. The Factory Map is still in place. The ECU settings plus or minus the adaptation channels determines how the timing, fuel, and other adjustments are made.

Any changes must be made with the engine not running but with the key on. The key must then be turned off and back on for them to take effect.

It would be nice if I could adjust the settings while the engine was running but it's not possible with the software that I've got.

Oh, BTW, my car ran really nice on the way to work this morning. I guess I got all the vacuum and sensor problems fixed for now.

[Haywire Haywood]

Oh, BTW, my car ran really nice on the way to work this morning. I guess I got all the vacuum and sensor problems fixed for now.

Good deal, I look forward to seeing the results of the second round of testing.

Ian

[Smith03Jetta]

I guess I spoke too early. I drove to work yesterday with no problems. I went out to lunch yesterday and didn't really notice any problems. I got back in my car 4 hours later to go home and I had problems again. I pulled over to the side of the road, set all my Computer settings back to factory defaults. I turned off the HHO and drove on home. My car did not run very well at all. It only ran ok when I was driving at a constant speed. As soon as I slowed down or accelerated or stopped it spit, sputtered, etc.

The engine RPMs went up and down between 800 and 500 rpms at idle.
I lost power when I pulled away from a stop.
I felt a heavy power surge when I was accelerating like someone was helping me push the gas petal.
The engine would lose power right before shifting gears. Higher RPMs would lose power like the engine quit firing on all cylinders or the exhaust was plugged up or something.

I got home and decided to disconnect the fuel line heater because the problem only appears when the engine is hot. I disconnected the battery cable before messing with the fuel line. I also went over the entire engine with a fine-toothed comb to look for loose vacuum hoses etc.

I found nothing. My internet research tells me that this could be a throttle body that needs cleaning. It could have too much buildup from the oil vapor that recirculates. Some research also points to a bad catalytic converter. Since I couldn't find anything wrong and I was getting no error codes after removing the fuel line heater, I just let the engine cool overnight.

I almost drove my Touareg to work this morning but I decided to try my Jetta again. It cranked up and ran just fine this morning. No problems on the way to work. No ECU mods, No HHO. Just plain gasoline with factory settings. 30 miles to work should have plenty time for everything to heat up.

The only thing different today is that I removed the Fuel Line heater.

Now, is there anybody out there who can help me understand this?

[jjb2888]

I guess I spoke too early. I drove to work yesterday with no problems. I went out to lunch yesterday and didn't really notice any problems. I got back in my car 4 hours later to go home and I had problems again. I pulled over to the side of the road, set all my Computer settings back to factory defaults. I turned off the HHO and drove on home. My car did not run very well at all. It only ran ok when I was driving at a constant speed. As soon as I slowed down or accelerated or stopped it spit, sputtered, etc.

The engine RPMs went up and down between 800 and 500 rpms at idle.
I lost power when I pulled away from a stop.
I felt a heavy power surge when I was accelerating like someone was helping me push the gas petal.
The engine would lose power right before shifting gears. Higher RPMs would lose power like the engine quit firing on all cylinders or the exhaust was plugged up or something.

I got home and decided to disconnect the fuel line heater because the problem only appears when the engine is hot. I disconnected the battery cable before messing with the fuel line. I also went over the entire engine with a fine-toothed comb to look for loose vacuum hoses etc.

I found nothing. My internet research tells me that this could be a throttle body that needs cleaning. It could have too much buildup from the oil vapor that recirculates. Some research also points to a bad catalytic converter. Since I couldn't find anything wrong and I was getting no error codes after removing the fuel line heater, I just let the engine cool overnight.

I almost drove my Touareg to work this morning but I decided to try my Jetta again. It cranked up and ran just fine this morning. No problems on the way to work. No ECU mods, No HHO. Just plain gasoline with factory settings. 30 miles to work should have plenty time for everything to heat up.

The only thing different today is that I removed the Fuel Line heater.

Now, is there anybody out there who can help me understand this?

Check your 02 sensor. Had a VW Eurovan with a 5 cylinder. Due to a crack exhaust manifold I burned up my o2 sensor. When I would stop it would spitter ans stall. Would start right back up, had black exhaust though. Basically I was loading up from the bad o2 sensor and stalling to a flooded condition.

[Smith03Jetta]

Mine is not smoking... Never has. It does use oil though. No leaks.

[jjb2888]

Mine is not smoking... Never has. It does use oil though. No leaks.

After rereading your post I wonder if the fuel heater is causing sort of a vapor lock. Its hard for injected engines to get vapor lock, but I wonder if the fuel heater is heating up the gas to the point of vaporization and they are causing bubbles in the fuel stream.

[cully]

It only ran ok when I was driving at a constant speed.

As soon as I slowed down or accelerated or stopped it spit, sputtered, etc.

The engine RPMs went up and down between 800 and 500 rpms at idle.
I lost power when I pulled away from a stop.


Now, is there anybody out there who can help me understand this?


sounds like the idle control valve is sticking this is located on the throttle body remove the unit and give it a clean with carb cleaner should do the trick

[Jaxom]

A sticky IAC won't affect the way the engine runs under acceleration.

This sounds like a fuel supply issue to me. Normally I'd say the fuel filter is clogged or the fuel pump is failing, but vapor-lock is a distinct possibility. Try it without the fuel heater and see what happens.

A clogged cat is unlikely, since the problem occurs at idle as well as at speed. It is possible that the catalyst matrix could be busted up and the chunks could cause an intermittent restriction...I've seen it before but it's rare and is normally caused by the car backfiring through the exhaust (which I'm sure you would have noticed by now.)

You might also want to check the TPS to make sure it's working.

[Smith03Jetta]

Well I didn't read Cully's response today mentioning my throttle body but I did spend a few minutes reading on VWVORTEX.com. I read that a dirty throttle body could cause exactly what I was experiencing. The tech on that site also stated that because the throttle body sensors would go haywire when the throttle body would get clogged it would mess up the fuel map as well.

Anyway...

I took the throttle body off and cleaned it really good with throttle body cleaner. I put it back together and it ran like a new car.

Now for the bad news...

A clean throttle body should be shiny and smooth. It is not. My throttle body tube is a matte finish. It also has some pitting. There was the normal oil and sludge buildup that should be expected but there was also some mineral deposits. The pitting and marred finish has got me worried. I'm 100% certain that it is caused by Sodium Hydroxide getting into my throttle body. The Sodium Hydroxide is reacting with the aluminum and is slowly destroying it. I'm sure it's doing something similar to my intake manifold as well.

Well, what to do?

For now I'm going to stop running HHO until I figure out a solution. I'm not running a bubbler because of back filling. I think I'll put in a bubbler and put in a series of check valves to keep the water in the bubbler. I'll need one checkvalve between the bubbler and the HHO Gen. I'll need another checkvalve between the bubbler and the outside world. Air should be able to get in but not out of that check valve. As the gen cools from normal use air will be sucked into that stand-alone check valve and not from the bubbler. When the gen is making HHO it will be forced out to the bubbler and not through the stand-alone check valve.

I would encourage everyone to take the plastic hose off your throttle body or Carb and inspect your throttle body really good for pitting or marred finish. Clean it with throttle body cleaner if you have to to make sure it still has a shiny finish. If it is being damaged you could be out some serious cash. The one on my car costs $500 to replace.

Consider this a warning.

[HHOhoper]

We noticed the same thing- when the generator cools, it sucks the bubbler dry. We had some cheap plastic check valves and the KOH disintegrated them in half. I really think a bubbler is a must, but that back filling is a royal pain.
I'm really curious to hear how your idea with the two bubblers works.

[cully]

We noticed the same thing- when the generator cools, it sucks the bubbler dry. I really think a bubbler is a must, but that back filling is a royal pain.



I'm trying a different idea of having a larger bubbler filled with distilled then when the cell cools and sucks back it tops the cell automatically

if your aluminium throttle body is being eroded by your electrolyte what damage is it doing to the aluminium cylinder head ??


what would happen if you ran the hho through a carbon filter like the ones in the fuel vapour systems on the car fuel tank would this scrub out the nasties and leave the HHO clean???

[Painless]

I was thinking about installing another hose barb on the electrolyser and just putting in a check valve which would allow air to be sucked into the unit but restrict flow out. This should hopefully stop the drinking from the bubbler.

I've read that some stainless steel wool will scrub the HHO fairly well, might be worth trying?

[BoyntonStu]

I was thinking about installing another hose barb on the electrolyser and just putting in a check valve which would allow air to be sucked into the unit but restrict flow out. This should hopefully stop the drinking from the bubbler.



I've read that some stainless steel wool will scrub the HHO fairly well, might be worth trying?

Zero installed a solenoid valve to atmosphere between the generator and the bubbler that closes when his generator is active. When the generator is turned off, the valve opens.

Problem solved.

Another idea: Switch to a dry cell and reservoir. ;>)

BoyntonStu

[Smith03Jetta]

if your aluminium throttle body is being eroded by your electrolyte what damage is it doing to the aluminium cylinder head ??


I'm guessing what's happening to my cylinder heads is the same as what's happening to any engine with Aluminum Cylinder heads.

I guess I'm getting a free head job! I'm guessing the NaOH is slowly increasing the CID of my engine.

What I'm really worried about is what's happening around my intake valve seats. Short of tearing into my engine I don't know of a good way to check for damage. I don't have a fiber optic probe.

There's one thing that I can definitely say... the idea that all of the electrolyte stays in the cell is BOGUS. The vapors definitely contain electrolyte. I cleaned out the plastic tube last week and this week I found more... and I found the damage.

[Smith03Jetta]

I'm still driving my car Bone Stock. No problems re-occurring after 3 days. Cleaning the throttle body seems to have fixed my problems. I've been playing around with a design that will filter out the "MIST" from the HHO. I'm thinking about using a plastic fiberous stuff similar to ScotchBrite. I'll put it in a tube or box and put it inline with my gas tube. The vapors will condense in the fibrous material and drip back down into my HHO container.

[Painless]

I think it's ZeroFossilFuel that recommends stainless steel wool for filtering all the moisture and chemical crap out of the HHO. Might be another option.

[Bill Bailey]

I'm still driving my car Bone Stock. No problems re-occurring after 3 days. Cleaning the throttle body seems to have fixed my problems. I've been playing around with a design that will filter out the "MIST" from the HHO. I'm thinking about using a plastic fiberous stuff similar to ScotchBrite. I'll put it in a tube or box and put it inline with my gas tube. The vapors will condense in the fibrous material and drip back down into my HHO container.

Hi I am new to the forum but not to the problem, as I read your posts
it appears that you know the answer to your problem. The bubbler is being emptied by the cell as it cools down and creates a low pressure condition above the fluid. As you saw you will require 1 check valve between the cell and the bubbler and one check valve between the bubbler and the inlet.

There are a slew of them on the market . The Prince of check valves is surely made by Smart Plastics . You can custom order 2 of Thea's as
free samples . You can get them in a complete range of barb sizes and
spring tensions not to mention the range of materials inside the check valve. After you have tested them and you want more they will cost you $6.00 each. OUCH lol .

The next best ( and cheaper ) is a 1/4" barb check valve by US Plastics
which will set you back the princely sum of $1.60 each .

Thea's are the ones I chose to go with , although I do like the other ones best lol.

Next is the bubbler situation..... or lack of ....... which is causing you such concern. Being aware of the potential threat of corrosion from the electrolyte caused me to design / use a bubbler with the gas entering from the base through an air stone ( smaller bubbles - better scrubbing ) and I
fave had no sine of corrosion an any part above the bubbler since.

A bubbler of this design also gives you more water vapour in the gas which is quite beneficial to the performance of the motor.

I would have attached photos, But I haven't worked out how to yet lol
You can tell I am over 60 lol

[Bill Bailey]

Ok I think that has got it. We will see. lol

Looking good so far. The one on the left is the $6.00 check valve from
Smart Plastics, while the one on the right is the $1.60 one from
US Plastics.

The 7 bubbler parts ..... simple but efective ..... assembled, easy to use
and NO LEAKS.

Enjoy

[Haywire Haywood]

A bubbler of this design also gives you more water vapour in the gas which is quite beneficial to the performance of the motor.

Water vapor is what contains the electrolyte that is damaging his engine. it's the problem that running a bubbler solves by condensing the vapor into the bubbler's water. If you are getting vapor off your bubbler, you're just putting what you want to filter out back into your engine.

Ian

[Bill Bailey]

Yes you are perfectly correct in your statement that we are just transferring the caustic from one lot of water to the next.
BUT ..... shorly volume counts for something. If we start with say a
1 % solution in the cell the GAS WILL Carry a minute amount over to the bubbler. Now we have plunged that small amount into fresh water and scrubbed it until there would only be a trace in the parts per million range to measure.

I feel it would be like somebody in Florida going into his back yard and lighting a
smoke ..... and 3 days later somebody in New York contracting lung canser
from passive smoking. Possible but unlikely.

What makes me so sure that there is a change to the gas once it has bean
forced through an air stone is the way the flame changes colour .

If you let the hho wash through the bubbler in a 1/8" or 3/16" tube,
the bubbles are quite big and some times quite extended and the flame it makes is a very intense yellow , bordering on orange. But when you force it through a stone the flame is invisible . Absolutely invisible.
Something is gone..... and I believe it is the pollutants it was caring in the bigger bubbles. I could be quite wrong in this but we all have to make choices on the RISK verses the REWARDS as we do in most things in life.
Hear is a tip ... If you wont to be really safe ....sell the car ...LOL
But be careful where you walk. lol

[Uwee]

After hearing all this talk about lye getting into the motor I am trying to figure out a way to make a two stage bubbler that will sit inline and pretty compact. maybe some pipe and fittings so it can attach to the cell.

I agree that if you have a 1-5% concentration of lye in your cell and run it into a freshwater bubbler. What little bit of lye that would make it in there eventually would probably never reach another 1-5% and if somehow it did just empty the thing out every week :)

I am thinking a two stage bubbler that is easy to empty/fill just to be safe on the engine.

[BoyntonStu]

In your photos the flames appear orange.

Are the flames invisible to the naked eye?

BoyntonStu



Yes you are perfectly correct in your statement that we are just transferring the caustic from one lot of water to the next.
BUT ..... shorly volume counts for something. If we start with say a
1 % solution in the cell the GAS WILL Carry a minute amount over to the bubbler. Now we have plunged that small amount into fresh water and scrubbed it until there would only be a trace in the parts per million range to measure.

I feel it would be like somebody in Florida going into his back yard and lighting a
smoke ..... and 3 days later somebody in New York contracting lung canser
from passive smoking. Possible but unlikely.

What makes me so sure that there is a change to the gas once it has bean
forced through an air stone is the way the flame changes colour .

If you let the hho wash through the bubbler in a 1/8" or 3/16" tube,
the bubbles are quite big and some times quite extended and the flame it makes is a very intense yellow , bordering on orange. But when you force it through a stone the flame is invisible . Absolutely invisible.
Something is gone..... and I believe it is the pollutants it was caring in the bigger bubbles. I could be quite wrong in this but we all have to make choices on the RISK verses the REWARDS as we do in most things in life.
Hear is a tip ... If you wont to be really safe ....sell the car ...LOL
But be careful where you walk. lol

[Smith03Jetta]

Ok, here's what I did tonight.

I pulled my front bumper off. I removed my entire HHO system. Everything except the wires...

I then drained my Pelican case and inspected the inside of the case. It's in perfect condition. The plates are really nice and the plastic case and gasket have not been affected by 3 months of use. I will again have to endorse Pelican Cases for your in-car system.

I replaced the water and NaOH with new stuff and drained the old stuff in a gallon jug for later disposal My drain may need cleaning...

I converted by goofy looking bubbler into a water trap and drain and installed it above my HHO generator. I then adjusted the NaOH level to pull 14 amps. I checked the output line for the telltale white mist. It was there as before. I then put the orange filter on the output line and watched it closely for about 5 minutes. No white mist. Nothing but clear air. The gas output was the same as before when I dipped the hose into a bucket of water.

I then installed the orange .01 micron filter between the water trap and the throttle body.

Now that my car's other problems (Sensors, Vacuum Hoses, Fuel pressure regulator, Throttle Body) have been fixed... I will start testing again. I will run the HHO for two days and pull my air plenum and output components apart and check for white NaOH sediment. It should be as easy to spot as a rainbow bumper sticker in San Francisco.

If I find nothing I'll check again 7 days later. If I still find no sediment after 7 days I will check the output volume and see if the filter element is getting clogged. As long as I'm getting a decent flow of HHO gas and the filter is not producing too much back-pressure it should work fine. This appears to be something I will do weekly checks on when I'm topping off my water.

The filters cost $7.00 so replacing them once every couple months if necessary should not be a problem.

Oh, I also put the bumper back on...

[Mindcrime13]

whats the exact name of the filter? how should i ask for it? did cost 7 dollars or 95?

thanks!

[Smith03Jetta]

It cost $7.00. It can be found on the sales counter at any Auto Refinishing Supply (Car Paint Store). It is a "Gun mounted disposable in-line air filter." The one I purchased was made by Motor Guard Corporation in Manteca Ca. http://www.motorguard.com

They come in singles and in double packs.

The other $95.00 filter I was talking about is much larger and is normally mounted on the wall of a paint booth.

[Mindcrime13]

thanks! im gonna experiment with this filter also.

[Smith03Jetta]

Update, mostly in picture form...

This is my 3 months inspection, retooling of my gas tubes and installation of my .01 micron filter.

1. Case as it appeared when I took it out from under my bumper. The White stuff on the lid is not from a leak. I spilled some electrolyte solution on top of the container several times when I was playing with bubbler designs.

2. After draining out the liquid, I open the lid. This is 3 months running time. BTW, the water contained no brown stuff. This photo is before I rinsed out the case so you can see that very little if any stuff is in the box.

3. Closeup of plate connectors/zip ties and plates.

4. Closeup of gas vent fitting. No corrosion or damage at all.

5. I put the case back in the car after filling the case back up with water and NaOH.

I took some photos of the tube/mist but they didn't catch the visible mist at all. I guess my camera can't focus on the fine mist enough to take a good photo.

[Smith03Jetta]

More of the photos.

1. This is a photo of my filler tube.

2. This is a photo of my test bubbler that did not work. I had changed it in this photo to function as a water trap before the inline filter. I later put a drain fitting on the bottom.

3. This is my inline filter as mentioned in posts as of late. This is the .01 micron filter that totally eliminated the visible mist coming out of the HHO gas line.

4. This is a photo of the filter and where it is installed in relation to the air plenum. I decided not to install the bottom side intake fitting as mentioned in earlier posts until I can verify that no NaOH is settling in my Air plenum / Bypassing the filter.

5. This is a bird's eye view of the HHO lines/fittings under my hood.

[Smith03Jetta]

One more photo...

This is looking down through the engine bay into the fender well to see the Pelican case and the mess of lines and wires...

[Smith03Jetta]

I filled up with gas this evening. Most of the gas stations in the town where I live are out of gasoline entirely. This is stupid... I had to fill up my tank 23 miles from my house. I paid $3.77 for 87 octane. What I don't understand is how the price of gasoline is DECREASING in the area where I live yet the fuel supply is quickly shutting down gas stations right and left...

After fueling up I hooked up my laptop and leaned out my fuel a decent amount and drove the 20+ miles to my home. The car ran really nice with the HHO. This is the first time it has every accelerated smoothly. It's also the first time the Cruise Control didn't buck up and down and give me whiplash when I was going down hill or level.

I'm 100% sure I fixed all the mechanical problems that plagued me during my first round of tests. This sucks that I had those problems but maybe I can look forward to better than 33 mpg in the near future...

[H2OPWR]

Ok, I'm not happy with the latest MPG test results.

Same exact driving conditions as first test. I got 26 mpg instead of 31.5 on last test. Should have been getting 25 mpg without any car mods.

I'm guessing the problem could have been caused by maybe two things.

The first thing.
The wires feeding my electrodes rusted and rust got in the water. I'm sure that changed the electrolytic properties of the water. I took the hose off the engine and did a liter/minute test and got 1/3 liter per minute. The tank also started running pretty hot. I took the lid off and steam almost burned my arm. The rusting wire actually melted into the acrylic water jacket a little bit. This was not a problem the first day I ran the device and got 31 mpg test results.

Second thing.
I started getting a CEL readout indicating a problem with my O2 sensor. I'm thinking about making an EFIE device to put on the car. I'm wondering if I could find some simplified EFIE instructions. I have downloaded the PDF document from Eagle Research. I'm not an experienced electronics guy and the manual is a little bit difficult to understand. Are there any Youtube videos out there to help?

Mr. Smith

I am not sure how long ago you posted this message but I am very well versed in automobiles and have been in the automotive industry for 20+ years. Every time your ecm receives a O2 sensor code the ECM will put your car into limp home mode. That sets the fuel mixture in full rich mode. The ECM is trying to make sure that you are not running too lean and burning holes in your pistons. The result will be very poor fuel economy. For best results you need to put the O2 sensor back into your exaust stream and modify the reading going to your ECM. I am not sure about VW's but your car may have a Air Fuel Ratio sensor and not a normal O2 sensor. If it does the mods are exactly opposite.

[Smith03Jetta]

You should start reading my posts at #190 and skip all the crap before that... That's old news...

[richardb200373]

Mr. Smith, I really like this pelican case idea, only thing I don't like is that it is not clear like lexan, but we have come up with issues on lexan and koh, so looks like that is out, still not sure about acrylic. By the way, are you still using NaOH, just wondering if there was anyone using KOH with "The Pelican"., I like that, kind of a nice ring, lol.. ANYWAY, just had a few questions about The Pelican.
Your output connection for hho on top, you said it was a water proof connection from the electrical isle in home depot or lowes...does it have a rubber seal, or o ring, just want to know what to look for.
What kind of sealant do you use where you have made holes, just silicone or something else better for heat.
I'm sure I have a ton more questions, forgot them all right now.
Any other insight, dos and don'ts on the box would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Richard

[Smith03Jetta]

There are some marine boxes similar to the pelican cases on the market with clear tops. Pelican may even make one. I could care less about looking into the case. I put it in my car and forget about it... That simple.

I'm still using NaOH. Have tried a mix of NaOH and KOH and it didn't really make any difference that I know of. I don't measure my electrolyte when mixing it. I keep adding electrolyte to the water until the amp draw gets to 14 or 15 amps... Don't pour the electrolyte directly into the Pelican case filled with water. The electrolyte produces a lot of heat then it reacts with the water. The Extremely hot particles can pit the plastic or at least stick to the plastic. Put a cup or two of water in a milk jug and pour in a high concentration of NaOH while shaking the jug to get a good mixture. Don't put a lid on it or air pressure can cause it to pop open. That will make a big mess. After the NaOH has disolved in the water pour the water into the case.

The gas output fitting does have an oring that presses against the outside of the box. I use 100% silicon sealant if needed but I make gaskets for my SS bolts using pieces of an old rubber inner tube. Works great. No sealant used..

Keep in mind that the particular model Pelican cases were designed to resist outside pressure, not internal pressure. If the pressure builds up too much on the inside of the case it will leak around the gasket. The secret is to put a strap on the case or clamps on the case to press the lid on a little bit tighter. That's a tip for you...

This time the amp draw leveled of at 15 amps... Putting out a lot of gas... A Lot...

[richardb200373]

Thanks for the info Smith. I think the flat bar and hook you made for the top are good, simple, quick and it does the job. I'm possibly looking into a 1430 pelican, and maybe do 2 or 4 cells in it. Still waiting on my 18ga. 316 to show up, started with 24ga, should have just bought some heavy duty foil instead. Got my shear, drill press, and all the other stuff I need for right now. Will be working on it this week and see what kind of configuration I can come up with. I've spent more money trying to make short cuts on this stuff, should have just bought the right tools and materials from the beginning. I would have had a working cell or two by now. Thanks again for the info.

[Painless]

Mr. Smith, I really like this pelican case idea, only thing I don't like is that it is not clear like lexan, but we have come up with issues on lexan and koh, so looks like that is out, still not sure about acrylic. By the way, are you still using NaOH, just wondering if there was anyone using KOH with "The Pelican"., I like that, kind of a nice ring, lol.. ANYWAY, just had a few questions about The Pelican.
Your output connection for hho on top, you said it was a water proof connection from the electrical isle in home depot or lowes...does it have a rubber seal, or o ring, just want to know what to look for.
What kind of sealant do you use where you have made holes, just silicone or something else better for heat.
I'm sure I have a ton more questions, forgot them all right now.
Any other insight, dos and don'ts on the box would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Richard

Before I switched from open bath to dry cell designs I sucessfully used KOH in portions of up to six tsp per gallon of distilled water and it held up fine. Mine was a pelican 1450.

Excellent cases even if I did spend $85 on something I'm now not going to use.

[Smith03Jetta]

My car ran really nice this morning on the way to work. The engine was really quiet and smooth. The throttle was not bumpy. No abnormal acceleration (Rich or Lean). The cruise control worked perfectly with no bucking. I think this tank of gas, with the help of some ECU leaning, will show some improvement in gas mileage. I will take off the Air Plenum this afternoon and do my two day test for NaOH getting past the filter. I'm also going to start doing weekly HHO volume tests to make sure the Filter is not getting clogged. I really don't know how long the filter will last before it needs to be blown out or replaced.

Oh, BTW, my wife drove my car yesterday. She did not report anything abnormal. She also did not report backing into an oak tree stump near my driveway. At least it didn't damage anything.

[Smith03Jetta]

Painless, You should put the case up for sale on this forum. I'm sure someone will take it off your hands. If not, then you can keep it to store you valuables, pistols or camera stuff.

[redneckgearhead34]

My car ran really nice this morning on the way to work. The engine was really quiet and smooth. The throttle was not bumpy. No abnormal acceleration (Rich or Lean). The cruise control worked perfectly with no bucking. I think this tank of gas, with the help of some ECU leaning, will show some improvement in gas mileage. I will take off the Air Plenum this afternoon and do my two day test for NaOH getting past the filter. I'm also going to start doing weekly HHO volume tests to make sure the Filter is not getting clogged. I really don't know how long the filter will last before it needs to be blown out or replaced.

Oh, BTW, my wife drove my car yesterday. She did not report anything abnormal. She also did not report backing into an oak tree stump near my driveway. At least it didn't damage anything.

HaHa thats funny I backed into a tree stump with my friends truck, but it did damage something. A $500 bumper

[Haywire Haywood]

You guys are obviously not cutting your stumps low enough... LOL. That's partly why I own a Stihl 076 with a 36" bar. 111cc of stump cutting oomph

Ian

[redneckgearhead34]

You guys are obviously not cutting your stumps low enough... LOL. That's partly why I own a Stihl 076 with a 36" bar. 111cc of stump cutting oomph

Ian

Haha I own two Stihl chainsaws with 18" bars(not sure about engine displacement).

But just in my defense it wasnt at my house. We were in the woods, my friends woods. I still feel guilty for damaging his truck consider it was less than 6 months old so I will fix it.

I bet I could beat you in a hot saw competition!!!

[Haywire Haywood]

Maybe... I've got a 372XP that's been worked over by Ed Heard. It's pretty hot for a work saw.

Ian

[Smith03Jetta]

I can lay a east leaning tree west in a northern windstorm blowing south. The reason why I didn't cut that tree stump lower is because it was a split three-trunk stump. Three 100ft oaks growing out of the same stump. I've only got a 18 inch Homelite but my daddy has a 25 inch Stihl and my Grandpa had very large McCollough chainsaw with a bow bar or "Bucking Bar". Photo Attached is not his actual chainsaw. It was red. I think they outlawed that particular chainsaw because they got really dangerous if people removed the guard on the front bottom. They were originally designed for cutting firewood from the bottom up. Those two chainsaws of my Dad's and Grandpa's are what I learned with.

[Boltazar]

You should hear what you guys sound like on this end, what a pissing contest

[Haywire Haywood]

Pissing contest? Obviously you have the distortion turned up on your end. Lay off that Wow pedal.

Ian

[Smith03Jetta]

My electrodes are bigger than your's!

[Painless]

My electrodes are bigger than your's!

That may be... but mine are wider!

[Haywire Haywood]

They were originally designed for cutting firewood from the bottom up.

I will respectfully disagree with you on this. How are you going to start cutting from the bottom?

Ian

[Smith03Jetta]

I may be off a little bit in my description but here's how it works.

A normal chainsaw has to cut a felled log from the top down. Then you have to worry about cutting through the log, pinching your chain or getting the chain in the dirt.

This particular loop type of bar was designed so that you can put the pointy guard under the bottom of the log and saw sort of sideways through the log. It is actually the forward facing side of the bar that does the cutting as the chain runs vertically down the front of the bar toward the guard.

As you cut through the log you have to keep pushing the guard further and further under the log or change your cutting angle downwards. That awkward angle can cause accidents.

[Haywire Haywood]

Ah, ok we're on the same page. The advanage to the hollow "bar" is that the kerf can close without as much chance of pinching the bar. I've only seen them run with the operator standing over the log and pushing in and down from 45 deg.

Ian

This is about as OT as you can get on an HHO forum eh? LOL

[Smith03Jetta]

I've seen it operate that way too...

[HHOhoper]

This tangent is hilarious!!!... :D

[Smith03Jetta]

What else is there to discuss while I drive a week's worth of gasoline out of my Jetta? Puppies? Chainsaws are way more manly!!!

Speaking of Manly... There's a steel supplier in Dalton Georgia called Manly Steel... "Is there any other kind of Steel?"

[Jaxom]

You all have bigger saws than me. :(

My saw is a hand-me-down 18" Poulan that my dad bought while my mom was pregnant with me. That makes the saw 30 years old, and it still runs great (although it's a little hard to start.)

[resago]

sensitive steel.

[Painless]

My saw is a junior hacksaw, but my mother told me that size isn't everything?

[Smith03Jetta]

Ok, I'm a little bit late posting any results from testing the orange filter on my gas line.

The filter seems to have done the job. I found one small speck of sediment in the air intake after a week and a half of running my car. That much could have been trapped in my original fittings. I did replace my gas tubing but I did not replace the fittings.

530 miles and no problems with NaOH getting in my throttle body. The filter is not clogged either. I tapped the filter on a black surface and nothing fell out of the filter. It is not clogged and the system is still putting out nearly 1 liter of gas per minute through the orange filter.

I did notice that the fittings on the filter felt a little loose when I disconnected it. I think the heat in the engine compartment may be affecting the plastic fittings a little bit. I'll find out over time and see if I can find another cheap/Excellent filter that will withstand the engine bay temperature a little better.

Otherwise I can't be more thrilled.

I have photos attached

Gas mileage???

I did a Hydrogen/no tweaks test prior to putting on the filter and adjusting the ECU. I got about 26 mpg. That's up from 24 mpg EPA.

I did an Acetone only test and saw no real change.

I'm slowly tweaking my ECU and testing for results. Right after I installed the filter I bumped my gas mileage back up to 31 mpg on a full tank of gas.

I did some more tweaks and I think I'll move on past 32-34 mpg on this tank. Heck, I'll be happy if I can start averaging 32.4 mpg. That will be a 35% increase. If I can get to 34 mpg that will push me 41.6% increase.

[Smith03Jetta]

Latest MPG results are.... Drum ROLL...... 33+ mpg.

That's 37.5% better than the EPA Estimate. Screenshot from Fueleconomy.gov attached.

[Stevo]

Latest MPG results are.... Drum ROLL...... 33+ mpg.

That's 37.5% better than the EPA Estimate. Screenshot from Fueleconomy.gov attached.

Hey, this guy by the screen name of Scooterdog says you might be a scam artist. What do you have to say to that?

http://www.hhoforums.com/showpost.php?p=16458&postcount=100
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=1533&page=11

[pj91gsx]

not this again. we dont care about scooterdog, he is not going to do the hho experiment so just ignore him.

[Stevo]

Sorry, I (just like everyone else here) hate to see posts by some egotistical ******* basically stating that all of Smith03Jetta's (and everyone else) tests and data is a bunch of bull**** and smoke and mirrors. It infuriates me as I really think Smith has done an excellent job all together. He spent plenty of his time as we all have just to be undermined by this jackoff. Apparently he (Scooterdork) won't be banned either as there seems to be no recourse for his actions.

[sumdude]

Believe he got banned now. lets see for how long though. enjoy the peace of mind while it lasts.


Sorry, I (just like everyone else here) hate to see posts by some egotistical ******* basically stating that all of Smith03Jetta's (and everyone else) tests and data is a bunch of bull**** and smoke and mirrors. It infuriates me as I really think Smith has done an excellent job all together. He spent plenty of his time as we all have just to be undermined by this jackoff. Apparently he (Scooterdork) won't be banned either as there seems to be no recourse for his actions.

[Smith03Jetta]

First thing I have to say is that scams and frauds always involve money transfer. I have nothing for sale. Period. Never have, never will.

Second thing I have to say is that I have not yet read any post where Scooterdog calls me out by name.

People are allowed to **** and moan all they want but their rights end where mine begin. If he or anyone else on this forum attack me directly accusing me of Fraud, Lying, Scamming or anything else without proof I'll make it my mission in life to destroy them completely. That includes personally and professionally. I have the intelligence, training, resources and time to make it happen.

That's all I have to say about that... Other than this was my 666th post.

[resago]

ip->isp->account->address->knock on door.:cool:

[sumdude]

ip->isp->account->address->knock on door.:cool:

LOL don't even need any isp->account->address any more dude. Alot of resources on the net to track down an ip address right from your home computer. Have done it before in other forums where members come on being the ' BIG BAD WOLF ' and i called them out and even showed their house, car, phone number and parents name. Anything is possible when you know how to work technology to the fullest.

[Stevo]

First thing I have to say is that scams and frauds always involve money transfer. I have nothing for sale. Period. Never have, never will.

Second thing I have to say is that I have not yet read any post where Scooterdog calls me out by name.

People are allowed to **** and moan all they want but their rights end where mine begin. If he or anyone else on this forum attack me directly accusing me of Fraud, Lying, Scamming or anything else without proof I'll make it my mission in life to destroy them completely. That includes personally and professionally. I have the intelligence, training, resources and time to make it happen.

That's all I have to say about that.

No, I know you are legit Smith. It shines through very brilliantly. Yeh, I think he ended up getting what he asked for in the end. I don't think he had the nerve to call you out directly.

BTW - That last post was # 666. That's awesome! LOL! :D

[DigitalMocking]

Latest MPG results are.... Drum ROLL...... 33+ mpg.

That's 37.5% better than the EPA Estimate. Screenshot from Fueleconomy.gov attached.

That's awesome smith. I'm building a drycell right now, I've got my vag-com software and cable loaded up, I'm curious with those results exactly what ECU modifications you've made.

I'm asking specifically because my cell is going into my 94 jetta :)

[solo33]

yeabut, how long is he going to have you talking about him.......! :eek:

[Smith03Jetta]

I wasn't talking about him before and I see no reason to start now.

Oh, by the way, I've taken a liking to this STU guy who I was once at odds with. It has been evident on recent posts. He has become a contributor to this forum. It may be true that he's cantankerous among other things but he's actually a smart guy who can contribute much to this topic.

You may not know it but this admirable man is a retired Physicist for the Army now living in the Naples Florida area. He likes to dabble in the stock market when he's not sitting in Barnes and Noble Book Stores doing some reading in the Religious section. Stu, please say Hi to Jan and the boys for me. How's the baby girl?
:)

[Mindcrime13]

do you know if this software also works with american cars or only with european cars?


Update:

I've downloaded two free software applications to go along with my OBD-II cable that's on order. The first one is Lemmiwinks. It works on Serial Port Computers. It can be downloaded for free from the following link.
http://www.vwfixx.com/lemmiwinks.exe

The second one is just like Lemmiwinks but it works on USB computers that do not have Serial Ports. My Laptop does not have a serial port. It's called UNISETTINGS

http://www.unitronic.ca/uni/content/view/148/58/

Along with in interface cable this software will allow you do SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR CAR if you don't know what the heck you are doing.....

I'm going to do baby step adjustments to my settings until I make sure everything is fine. I'm thinking about putting my car on a dyno after I'm done just to check everything out. The local dyno guy charges $100 for 3 runs. The Revo guys frequent his shop on Saturdays. It would be nice to chat them up.

The settings that this software will adjust in the car's ECM are listed below.

Ch01 : Idle Speed Offset
Adjust idle RPM level
- Higher number: increase idle rpm
- Lower number: decrease idle rpm

This channel allows one to adjust the engine idle speed in steps of 10
rev/min.

Maximum possible control range : -1280 rev/min to +1270 rev/min

Ch02 : Fuel Tweak (Accel Pump); Increasing Loads
-This channel adjusts a fuel enrichment under load
-Modulates Throttle Response

This channel adjusts a fuel enrichment term that is proportional to load
rate of change and that acts to enrich full when the engine load is
increasing. This is equivalent to an accelerator pump function

Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Ch03 : Fuel Tweak (Accel Pump); Decreasing Loads
-This channel adjusts a fuel enrichment term coming off the gas or decelerating.

This is very similar in function to channel 2 but adjusts a term
that works to decrease fuel when engine load is decreasing.

Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Ch04 : Start Up Fuel Enrich
Amount of fuel on any start ups?
- Higher number: enrich the mix
- Lower number: lean out the mix

This adjusts the startup fuel enrichment term.

Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Ch05 : Warm Up fuel Enrich
Amount of fuel on start ups E.G. on the first start in the morning?
- Higher number: enrich the mix
- Lower number: lean out the mix

This adjusts the warmup fuel enrichment term.

Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Ch06 : Lambda Regulation
Controls how fast ECU adapts:
- Higher number: faster adaptation
- Lower number: slower adaptation

This tweaks a lambda regulation system's narrowband oxygen sensor
cycle time in steps of 10 milliseconds.

Maximum possible control range : -1280 ms to + 1270 ms

Ch07 : Additive Offset To Speed Limiter
Controls speed limiter in increments ok 1km/hr

This is allows one to adjust the speed limiter in steps of 1 kmh.

Maximum possible control range : -128 kmh to + 127 kmh

Ch08 : Secondary Fuel Tweak
Controls fueling at idle, ussually alters additive fuel trims
- Higher number enrich the mix
- Lower number lean out the mix

This adjusts the main fuel term.

Maximum possible control range : 0% to 200%

Ch09 : Ignition Timing Offset
Controls timing in steps of 0.75 degrees, all RPM range is altered
- Higher number advances timing
- Lower number retards timing

Allows one to shift the ignition timing angle up or down in steps of
0.75 degrees.

Maximum possible control range : -96 Degrees to +95.25 Degrees

Ch10 : Primary Fuel Tweak
Controls fueling on run, ussually change multiplicative fuel trims
- Higher number enrich the mix
- Lower number lean out the mix

This adjust the main fuel term.

Maximum possible control range : -25% to +24.8%

Ch11: Unused

Maximum possible control range : -128 to +127

Ch12 : SEL Scaling (Turbo Cars Only)
Adjust boost
- Higher numbers increase boost pressure
- Lower numbers decrease boost pressure

This factor allows one to scale the specified engine load. The default
value comes set at the maximum value, so specified engine loads can only
be reduced with this adaptation channel.

Maximum possible control range : 0% to 100%

Ch13: Control Bits

Unused. These control bits affect engine idle control.

Maximum possible control range : 8 different control bits can be set
or cleared

Ch14 : Idle Torque Additive Offset

This channel allows one to raise the minimum torque maintained at idle.

Maximum possible control range : 0 to 255 (arbitrary units)

My car has 115 horsepower and 125 fp torque. This software can help me adjust my horsepower to 125 and torque to 145 with no engine mods. That's not neccessarily my intention but I just might take advantage of it while I'm doing my fuel mods.

Mr. Smith

[BoyntonStu]

I wasn't talking about him before and I see no reason to start now.

Oh, by the way, I've taken a liking to this STU guy who I was once at odds with. It has been evident on recent posts. He has become a contributor to this forum. It may be true that he's cantankerous among other things but he's actually a smart guy who can contribute much to this topic.

You may not know it but this admirable man is a retired Physicist for the Army now living in the Naples Florida area. He likes to dabble in the stock market when he's not sitting in Barnes and Noble Book Stores doing some reading in the Religious section. Stu, please say Hi to Jan and the boys for me. How's the baby girl?
:)

Thanks Mr. Smith,

I had better watch out because you seem to be hovering over my shoulder.


Sophie Mayah says Hi!

Stu

[Smith03Jetta]

Keep reading. The Lemmiwinks software is written for VW, Skoda, Seat and Audi cars only. It uses a communication protocol unique to those 4 specific automobile manufacturers. I'm sure there's some software out there for other cars that use OBD-II cables for diagnostics.

[Smith03Jetta]

I have decided to remove the HHO Generator from both my vehicles for the winter. I'm not satisfied that I have a dependable way of keeping the water from freezing. The temperature will drop below freezing for the first time on Monday/Tuesday. I do not want to risk getting NaOH all over the place if my cases freeze and leak.

I've been getting better gas mileage with the HHO devices I've built but I'm going to do some quiet research over the winter months and maybe have something better to offer in the spring.

[resago]

if you don't mind. check your mileage after you take it out and see what the difference is in just running lean and running lean with hho.
also if hho let you run more lean than without.

thanks.
D.

[HHOhoper]

resago, that's a really good point. I'm to the point to where I thinking I'm going to have to do some mods in order to see any benefit out of my Jeep, but I'm curious as to what is actually providing more MPG benefit; the mods or the HHO?
I am VERY jealous of all of you who just pop these things in your cars and see all the fruits without having to brain-wash your engines! :p

[Keith's Garage]

The mods that we are doing to the computer is whats giving us our gains, but, the HHO is what is allowing us to safely lean out the motor without having major motor issues

[Smith03Jetta]

Ok, now that I took out the HHO I got an error message saying I was running Lean. I got that message twice before I changed my Adaptation settings back to default fuel settings.

I'm not getting that lean message anymore but my gas mileage sucks. I've noticed about a 20% - 25% reduction in fuel mileage on my first tank of gas.

I drive the same exact route every day for consistency. I normally get gas on Friday evening on my way home from work. Today is Thursday and my low fuel light turned on on my way to work this morning. When I was running HHO and had my engine leaned out I was always able to fill up way before my fuel light came on on friday evening. I should have been able to get another 60 - 75 miles out of a tank of gas.

I also noticed that my engine makes more noise now that I'm not running HHO. It sounds like a slight bit of valve clatter. I did not notice my engine getting quieter when I started using HHO. I did not hear this noise when I was running HHO. It could have possibly been there before I started HHO but I only noticed it after I turned off the HHO.

[daddymikey1975]

Ok, now that I took out the HHO I got an error message saying I was running Lean. I got that message twice before I changed my Adaptation settings back to default fuel settings.

I'm not getting that lean message anymore but my gas mileage sucks. I've noticed about a 20% - 25% reduction in fuel mileage on my first tank of gas.

I drive the same exact route every day for consistency. I normally get gas on Friday evening on my way home from work. Today is Thursday and my low fuel light turned on on my way to work this morning. When I was running HHO and had my engine leaned out I was always able to fill up way before my fuel light came on on friday evening. I should have been able to get another 60 - 75 miles out of a tank of gas.

I also noticed that my engine makes more noise now that I'm not running HHO. It sounds like a slight bit of valve clatter. I did not notice my engine getting quieter when I started using HHO. I did not hear this noise when I was running HHO. It could have possibly been there before I started HHO but I only noticed it after I turned off the HHO.

the engine noise phenomenon seems a bit puzzling to me.. i wonder if the HHO 'cleaned' your engine too much lol... it's a shame that you didn't pay much attention to it before hand then you'd have a better idea if the HHO contributed or not...

by the way, i woke up early one saturday morning and read this ENTIRE post and i must applaud your persistence.. much appreciated.

mike

[admin]

The mileage was better lean with the HHO?

[daddymikey1975]

yes his mileage was better with the engine running lean while using HHO..

that's the idea.. :)

he removed his HHO system for the winter.

[admin]

was it better mileage than the engine running with no modifications? if so, how much of a difference?

[daddymikey1975]

With HHO the mileage was better than stock (no mods)
With the computer re mapped to run lean only the milege was a little better however there was performance lost. (if i remember right from reading this post)

to get his exact figures, you'd have to go back and read the entire post... I can't remember particulars, but the whole post is a good read to determine how thorough his tests are.

Hope this helps
mike

[triple88a]

My saw is a junior hacksaw, but my mother told me that size isn't everything?

and they say you can cross the Atlantic with a roll boat too..

anyhow i finally got through the 49 pages :cool: Great thread there Mr Smith

[Stealth_NT]

Ok...

I was reading all this thread for a long time (some hours), I just want to say thx to Mr. Smith for sharing all this information, for me was very educational also will help me a lot with my own project.

Btw I have to apologize for me english since english is not my natural language.



Thanks again :D

[lowride]

I have decided to remove the HHO Generator from both my vehicles for the winter. I'm not satisfied that I have a dependable way of keeping the water from freezing. The temperature will drop below freezing for the first time on Monday/Tuesday. I do not want to risk getting NaOH all over the place if my cases freeze and leak.

I've been getting better gas mileage with the HHO devices I've built but I'm going to do some quiet research over the winter months and maybe have something better to offer in the spring.

Hello Mr Smith! I'm from cold Norway and I have a solution for cold weather. I have built a HHO unit from a batterycase and to get any amps through, I need to maximize the amount of lye in the water. That has a bi-effect: It doesn't freeze! Just like the strong sulfuric-acid in a lead-acid battery doesn't freeze when fully charged. I have had a test in our freezer when it's -18 deg C, and it's no sign of crystals. In my bubbler I used washing fluid 50/50 mix.

When that is said, I have tried with my VW Passat 1,9 tdi for over a year without any noticable gains. My last unit produced between 5-600ml/min in 8 amps, and the engine felt better with 2-300ml/min. But no gains...

It is encouraging to read about your effort and success though!

[lowride]

I guess I spoke too early. I drove to work yesterday with no problems. I went out to lunch yesterday and didn't really notice any problems. I got back in my car 4 hours later to go home and I had problems again. I pulled over to the side of the road, set all my Computer settings back to factory defaults. I turned off the HHO and drove on home. My car did not run very well at all. It only ran ok when I was driving at a constant speed. As soon as I slowed down or accelerated or stopped it spit, sputtered, etc.

The engine RPMs went up and down between 800 and 500 rpms at idle.
I lost power when I pulled away from a stop.
I felt a heavy power surge when I was accelerating like someone was helping me push the gas petal.
The engine would lose power right before shifting gears. Higher RPMs would lose power like the engine quit firing on all cylinders or the exhaust was plugged up or something.

I got home and decided to disconnect the fuel line heater because the problem only appears when the engine is hot. I disconnected the battery cable before messing with the fuel line. I also went over the entire engine with a fine-toothed comb to look for loose vacuum hoses etc.

I found nothing. My internet research tells me that this could be a throttle body that needs cleaning. It could have too much buildup from the oil vapor that recirculates. Some research also points to a bad catalytic converter. Since I couldn't find anything wrong and I was getting no error codes after removing the fuel line heater, I just let the engine cool overnight.

I almost drove my Touareg to work this morning but I decided to try my Jetta again. It cranked up and ran just fine this morning. No problems on the way to work. No ECU mods, No HHO. Just plain gasoline with factory settings. 30 miles to work should have plenty time for everything to heat up.

The only thing different today is that I removed the Fuel Line heater.

Now, is there anybody out there who can help me understand this?

I made a fuelpreheater on my tdi that worked too good. When the car got real warm, the engine started to misfire, and then died. I assumed that the fuel was too warm, waited 2 minutes, and then the engine started again. I think that the fuel got too thin for the fuelpump to push it in. I have now only preheating of the fuelpipes between the fuelpump and the engine.

Perhaps a injection gas engine works in a similar way? If there is a fuelpump in the system, I think that that can be the problem.

[lowride]

Ok, now that I took out the HHO I got an error message saying I was running Lean. I got that message twice before I changed my Adaptation settings back to default fuel settings.

I'm not getting that lean message anymore but my gas mileage sucks. I've noticed about a 20% - 25% reduction in fuel mileage on my first tank of gas.

I drive the same exact route every day for consistency. I normally get gas on Friday evening on my way home from work. Today is Thursday and my low fuel light turned on on my way to work this morning. When I was running HHO and had my engine leaned out I was always able to fill up way before my fuel light came on on friday evening. I should have been able to get another 60 - 75 miles out of a tank of gas.

I also noticed that my engine makes more noise now that I'm not running HHO. It sounds like a slight bit of valve clatter. I did not notice my engine getting quieter when I started using HHO. I did not hear this noise when I was running HHO. It could have possibly been there before I started HHO but I only noticed it after I turned off the HHO.

Yes. My TDI went much quieter with HHO than without too. Now I'm driving without, because i let my uncle in Sweden borrow it on an -85 volvo, without results either... It rackles as much as it did before, without HHO.

[lowride]

Is forum dead now??

[gizzy]

Yes. My TDI went much quieter with HHO than without too. Now I'm driving without, because i let my uncle in Sweden borrow it on an -85 volvo, without results either... It rackles as much as it did before, without HHO.

No not at all. There's a lot of information here and questions that were answered. Your talking about the valve chatter before HHO. If you notice: the vapor trail coming from your exhaust is water vapors mixed in your emissions. It' actually picking up your carbon deposits and cleaning it out. From years of muscle cars and so on if carbon build up got caught up in your valves, it's keeping some of your valves to stick and not giving it a chance to close all the way. So the HHO is cleaning your carbon emissions. This is the easiest explanation I can give in my 2 cents. Anyhow. I'm not a muscle-head but I do know a few things. Remember this is cleaning your environment even if at first your not getting excellent fuel mileage. As far as the forum also: It has slowed a bit. I figure because the gas prices really fell to an affordable level, but now as it's going up again you'll see more and more posts.

[M34me]

Where is Mr. Smith? He hasn't posted since November of last year right after he took the units off of his cars. Surely he has re-installed them this year.

[Stevo]

Maybe he had a life event. I had that happen to me about December of last year. New babies can take the place of your hobbies for a while sometimes. I just got back to my HHO studies a couple of weeks ago. It happens. :)

[HHOhoper]

Same here. I got married and started a new job and found it hard to make time just to change the oil! :o I'm sure the drop in gas prices made this less of a priority for a lot of folks as well. Let gas get ridiculous again and you'll see this forum come alive again.
I essentially copied my cell from Mr. Smith's and it's been running none stop for the past year giving me 20% gains when I'm not running the A/C (15% with A/C). Never had a freezing problem over the winter either. :) Hope remains...:D

[M34me]

Same here. I got married and started a new job and found it hard to make time just to change the oil! :o I'm sure the drop in gas prices made this less of a priority for a lot of folks as well. Let gas get ridiculous again and you'll see this forum come alive again.
I essentially copied my cell from Mr. Smith's and it's been running none stop for the past year giving me 20% gains when I'm not running the A/C (15% with A/C). Never had a freezing problem over the winter either. :) Hope remains...:D

Winter is a definite issue for me, more so than you probably. 0 F is not uncommon and I have seen -28 and -10-15 for a week at a time. So what did you do? You should post in the electrolyte section.

I have had thoughts about a 12v heater blanket of sorts powered by a small motorcycle battery or something, that would charge off the alternator but would otherwise be separate from the rest of the cars electrical system.

I have to wonder if this company down in FL that is installing the H2Go sys. for $3500.00 that only uses H2o has something in mind for freezing temps.

And I know about life events. I have been overwhelmed with projects around the house for the last 2 years, much more so than normal, and it's really starting to wear on me. But maybe in regard to the HHO system that's a good thing. I've noticed a lot of improved designs since I started looking a year ago. So I should end up with a better system for that reason.

[lowride]

Nice to see that the forum is not dead :-)

There is also HHOInfo that is quite active. I have experienced that a combination of watervapour and HHO with low amps, 2-5, is working best.

I believe I have a 15-20 increase in mileage on my worn VW tdi with 400.000km on the road. Some have had success with a second cell that they turn on in citydriving.

My oil is actuallt still clear after 1,5 month of driving! Perhaps the water cleanses out the carbon deposits?