scrubber / bubbler

[22350]

I have a question, so.....

Let's move into the land of theoretical.

I am in a magical world, where I have two hydroxy generators.

The first hydroxy generator has two bubblers. Both bubblers have distilled water in them and use aquarium stones to break up the gas, as it passes through the liquid.

The second hydroxy generator has two bubblers. The first bubbler has 28% KOH and an aquarium stone. The second bubbler has clear water and an aquarium stone.

Now the question:

Is there any difference in the amount of water vapor and KOH in the gas, between our two generators?

Now let's go deeper down the rabbit hole.

What if each of our hydroxy generators only had one bubbler? The first generator's bubbler using 28% KOH and the second generator's bubbler using clear water.

Now the second question:

Why would it make any difference if there was KOH in the liquid of not? Wouldn't each of the liquids capture vapor just the same?

Please try not to think about I am asking these questions.

Just stay focused on the questions from the magic world.

thanks

[Roland Jacques]

1. Is there any difference in the amount of water vapor and KOH in the gas, between our two generators?

I'd say no difference in the amount of water vapor.
Id' would say the KOH amount would be different.
Bubblers are used by some to put water into gases, vaporizing the water.

2. Why would it make any difference if there was KOH in the liquid of not? Wouldn't each of the liquids capture vapor just the same?

Same answer, Bubblers are used by some to put water into gases, vaporizing the water.(not very effectivly IMO) So the bubbler with KOH in it is just vaporizing KOH water.



Bubbler don't remove water vapor buy themself. You can use a bubbler water vapor. But that is more due to it lowering the gas temperature and condensating some of the vapor than just bubbles going through water.

[BioFarmer93]

OK, magic magnifier glasses ON.. I'm riding up a distilled water column inside a fat bubble of HHO, wearing my protective suit, swatting giant microdroplets of water/KOH mix out of my way so I can see what's happening when they collide with the bubble wall.. Oh, cool, it's like the bubble wall just absorbs them like they were never there in the first place. Now I'm flying up out of the water along with a few of those microdroplets of KOH/water mix, but as I transitioned from the water to the interior atmosphere of the bubbler, I noticed that the disturbance of my bubble breaking the surface caused the formation of thousands more microdroplets of distilled water mixed with very dilute KOH. AAaarrgghhhh! We're being sucked into a giant tube! The massive vortex at the mouth of the tube causes some of the microdroplets to be flung against the wall and stick, and as I fly through this giant tube I see some of them drawn by the coolness of the wall and condense there with others, eventually melding together to form small pools. I now hear a great roaring sound, and as I look around I see that most of the droplets within my view are comprised of just water, with only the tiniest traces of KOH in them, obviously bubbler water... But here and there I see the occasional microdroplet that made it through the journey intact, to be transformed into something else completely through a torturous maelstrom of petroleum and fire... Man, glad I bailed at the air intake, huh?

But, the same journey undertaken with a KOH bubbler installed would contribute its microdroplets of full strength electrolyte to the gas flow, to be enjoyed by the steel it meets as a preservative, but terrifying any aluminum it encounters as a deadly destroyer..

HELP! Somebody pull me up out of this Rabbit Hole!!

[fastcompacts]

I have to agree with Biofarmer93. I would have to say that the 2 bubblers with water would be your best bet to get most of the KOH out before it gets to the engine. A bubbler filled with 28% KOH is just asking for trouble. I would have nightmares about getting that stuff in my engine. You didnt say where the bubbler was mounted but if it was mounted under your hood or trunk and somehow it spung a leak it would not be a good think at all. It may potential corrode away anything aluminum in got on, and the clean up would just be a royal pain. My question to you is what is the reasoning behind having a bubbler filled with KOH? I cant think of anything positive, but if you can i would like to know the theory behind it.:cool:

[Roland Jacques]

OK, magic magnifier glasses ON.. I'm riding up a distilled water column inside a fat bubble of HHO, wearing my protective suit, swatting giant microdroplets of water/KOH mix out of my way so I can see what's happening when they collide with the bubble wall.. Oh, cool, it's like the bubble wall just absorbs them like they were never there in the first place. Now I'm flying up out of the water along with a few of those microdroplets of KOH/water mix, but as I transitioned from the water to the interior atmosphere of the bubbler, I noticed that the disturbance of my bubble breaking the surface caused the formation of thousands more microdroplets of distilled water mixed with very dilute KOH. AAaarrgghhhh! We're being sucked into a giant tube! The massive vortex at the mouth of the tube causes some of the microdroplets to be flung against the wall and stick, and as I fly through this giant tube I see some of them drawn by the coolness of the wall and condense there with others, eventually melding together to form small pools. I now hear a great roaring sound, and as I look around I see that most of the droplets within my view are comprised of just water, with only the tiniest traces of KOH in them, obviously bubbler water... But here and there I see the occasional microdroplet that made it through the journey intact, to be transformed into something else completely through a torturous maelstrom of petroleum and fire... Man, glad I bailed at the air intake, huh?

But, the same journey undertaken with a KOH bubbler installed would contribute its microdroplets of full strength electrolyte to the gas flow, to be enjoyed by the steel it meets as a preservative, but terrifying any aluminum it encounters as a deadly destroyer..

HELP! Somebody pull me up out of this Rabbit Hole!!

Man i feel dizzy. They need this ride at Six Flags.

[22350]

OK, magic magnifier glasses ON.. I'm riding up a distilled water column inside a fat bubble of HHO, wearing my protective suit, swatting giant microdroplets of water/KOH mix out of my way so I can see what's happening when they collide with the bubble wall.. Oh, cool, it's like the bubble wall just absorbs them like they were never there in the first place. Now I'm flying up out of the water along with a few of those microdroplets of KOH/water mix, but as I transitioned from the water to the interior atmosphere of the bubbler, I noticed that the disturbance of my bubble breaking the surface caused the formation of thousands more microdroplets of distilled water mixed with very dilute KOH. AAaarrgghhhh! We're being sucked into a giant tube! The massive vortex at the mouth of the tube causes some of the microdroplets to be flung against the wall and stick, and as I fly through this giant tube I see some of them drawn by the coolness of the wall and condense there with others, eventually melding together to form small pools. I now hear a great roaring sound, and as I look around I see that most of the droplets within my view are comprised of just water, with only the tiniest traces of KOH in them, obviously bubbler water... But here and there I see the occasional microdroplet that made it through the journey intact, to be transformed into something else completely through a torturous maelstrom of petroleum and fire... Man, glad I bailed at the air intake, huh?

But, the same journey undertaken with a KOH bubbler installed would contribute its microdroplets of full strength electrolyte to the gas flow, to be enjoyed by the steel it meets as a preservative, but terrifying any aluminum it encounters as a deadly destroyer..

HELP! Somebody pull me up out of this Rabbit Hole!!

Thanks for this reply.

So the contention here is the micro-droplets inside the bubble will be absorbed into the bubble wall better with clear distilled water vs. KOH solution?

Why would those droplets get absorbed into your bubble wall differently? Wouldn't that would leave the rest of the process identical?

The only difference I see is that there is KOH vapors in the atmosphere of the first bubbler, but if you consider the first bubbler as the steam remover and the second bubbler as the vapor remover, I am not sure what the difference is.

[BioFarmer93]

"So the contention here is the micro-droplets inside the bubble will be absorbed into the bubble wall better with clear distilled water vs. KOH solution?"

No, that is not the contention at all. As I re-read my post, I can't see that I ever even inferred that.

"What if each of our hydroxy generators only had one bubbler?"

My response was based on this question, utilizing only one bubbler on each of the hypothetical e-lyzers, -one that used water, one that used e-lyte.

"The only difference I see is that there is KOH vapors in the atmosphere of the first bubbler, but if you consider the first bubbler as the steam remover and the second bubbler as the vapor remover, I am not sure what the difference is."

I don't necessarily see the first bubbler as a steam remover, since steam seems to makes it through bubblers all the time, and depending on the operating temp of the entire system, steam would sometimes make it through a second bubbler too. Better to add some interference turbulation for caustic removal. The second bubbler is going to work the same way as the first, possibly a little better because of a greater temp. differential, but this will even out as the system runs. Besides, bubblers add their own water vapor to the gas. There are only a few ways to remove water vapor from gas that are going to be feasible with the space available in a car. (I assume we are talking about an automotive system since I don't actually recall reading otherwise.) The most feasible would be a desicant chamber, which would have to be changed daily with a freshly dried one, or a chiller of some variety to condense the moisture. There are other methods but they depend on high flow rates and pressurizing the gas.
The easiest route would be to simply run two or three well built fresh water bubblers in series and not worry about it. Water vapor doesn't harm your engine.

On a personal note, I don't use aquarium stones. I use a water reservoir for the e-lyzer and two 2" dia. 16" tall PVC bubblers connected in series that have five plastic pot scrubbers evenly spaced along their height. The first one uses about a 5-10% distilled white vinegar solution and the second one uses fresh water.The pot scrubbers break up the bubbles over and over and over, increasing turbulence (scrubbing) and bubble wall (interface) area for any given volume of gas vs. large or small non-turbulated bubbles. Water vapor doesn't worry me, only caustics, so I go to extra lengths (some might feel) to remove as much as practicable.

[22350]

biofarmer,

I do want you to know that I hold no anamosity toward you.

If I ask questions, it's because I am trying to understand what yo are saying.

My understanding of the scrubber is that you want to break the bubbles up. What you say about the plastic scrubbers makes sense. Bob Boyce suggested 1 micron water filters.

regarding the bubbles moving through the liquid. I understood by your statement about water / KOH droplets being absorbed into the bubble walls, to mean that the outside kiquid was absorbing it.

if the goal with my first bubbler is to get rid of any water vapor / steam, I just didn't see why koh solution wouldn't do that.

[BioFarmer93]

22350, thanks, we're cool-

OK, I think I finally see where you are going with this.. The two are going to function identically, removing the same amounts of mist or vapor initially.. BUT, and here is the rub, the KOH bubbler will add back in its microdroplets of your 28% e-lyte in the bubbling process, where the distilled water bubbler would add back in its microdroplets (mist, moisture, vapor) of nice harmless water.

[22350]

22350, thanks, we're cool-

OK, I think I finally see where you are going with this.. The two are going to function identically, removing the same amounts of mist or vapor initially.. BUT, and here is the rub, the KOH bubbler will add back in its microdroplets of your 28% e-lyte in the bubbling process, where the distilled water bubbler would add back in its microdroplets (mist, moisture, vapor) of nice harmless water.

Basically my situation is that I have real estate, within a built in sump. If I can accomplish the first of two scrubbers, within the electrolyser, it saves me a lot of space.

Regardless, I am going to have KOH fumes coming out the electrolyser, but if I can kill any steam I will be ahead of the game.

[dataman19]

The pot scrubbers are an interesting idea...
..
In the Ethanol Reflux Distillation cycle a similar approach was taken.
..
The reason it is called reflux is because as the ethanol vapors rise through the falling water droplets, the ethanol alcohol in the condensing water droplets is effectively scrubbed and is allowed to continue up the chain. This purifies the ethanol alcohol and provides for a near 96% concentration.
..
The same effect is used in plate separators in a petroleum refinery. As the gas bubbles bubble through the liquid saturated plates, the vapors are purified.
..
In your case the scrubbers are the effective plates, and since KOH is a heavier substance than Hydrogen and Oxygen gasses, the KOH would tend to remain with the water droplets, and therefore fall back down the bubbler. In effect, the action of the water dropplets falling and the gas bubbles rising would effectively strip additional KOH residuals from the gas bubbles.
..
If you carried this one step further - you would have a bubbler with only a small lower reservoir, and the scrubbers would be placed above the gas feed tube (with applicable diffuser to properly atomize the vapors). The act of the gas vapors flowing up the layers of scrubbers would essentially cause the water vapor to condense. this would effectively cause the vapors to de-water (to dry out) and effectively lower the humidity of the vapors.
...
So now I have something to ask. You say that a 1micron filter is the recommended mesh for an HHO Bubbler? Why?
..
Just what is the average micron measurement of KOH? KOH in Solution? how about our target gasses: Hydrogen? Oxygen? or even H2O?
..
If we can isolate the micron sizes, could we not separate effectively by employiong varying micron mesh screens to effectively filter down to the smallest micron? Since Hydrogen is 1 on the periodic table - it is most likely the smalles. I would bet that Oxygen would be the next one. KOH and H2O would naturally be larger, so they could be reduced just like a plate separator in a refinery.
...
Nostalgic mind spurt:::: This is exactly how we do it with a PEM Membrane Hydrogen Plant!!!!! Dang, I knew this all sounded familiar. Now if I can just stimulate those 67-year old brain cells and remember the actual design....
...
dataman19

[BioFarmer93]

So I take it that this real estate is the built in KOH bubbler you spoke of earlier. Since I'm not looking at your plans, I will assume that when you said "built in" before that that means possibly an interior shared wall that probably would be about the same temperature as your e-lyte... So, it may be a little difficult to de-steam the gas there. Hard to say without looking at it though. Just be sure to turbulate the following fresh water bubbler as much as feasible. Best of luck.

[BioFarmer93]

Dataman19- Ginko Biloba, Focus Factor, Green Tea- Whatever it takes buddy, we need you!

[22350]

So I take it that this real estate is the built in KOH bubbler you spoke of earlier. Since I'm not looking at your plans, I will assume that when you said "built in" before that that means possibly an interior shared wall that probably would be about the same temperature as your e-lyte... So, it may be a little difficult to de-steam the gas there. Hard to say without looking at it though. Just be sure to turbulate the following fresh water bubbler as much as feasible. Best of luck.

Here is an elevation of the internal bubbler:

http://www.pauloberman.com/elevationweb.jpg

Forget the magnets, that idea is going away.

My goal is to keep as much of the KOH in the sump, and out of the scrubber, as possible.

[BioFarmer93]

22350- Interesting looking design, trying to keep the plumbing internal like that... Was that the reason for that type of design or is there a particular container you wish to use that is driving the design? Per our prior exchange about steam removal, the thermal equalization in your arrangement looks like it will be fairly rapid. Perhaps you might consider simply using that extra volume for increased e-lyte reserve or even more plates? Dataman19 really zeroed in on how the scrubbers actually work and as I read his post again, I see how they can be made to work even better by completely filling the bubbler with the pot scrubbers and only filling it perhaps a fourth or third of the way up with water.

[22350]

that design is actually made from tubes. the cathode is the outside of the container. It is only sandwiched on the top and bottom and sealed with o rings.

The entire cell can be disassembled in about 5 minutes, with no tools. What isn't pictured is a 4 watt liquid pump, which pressurizes the plenum on the bottom.

The goal is no current leakage, by virtue of the fact that there is only one cell.

Also, the cell is the reservoir.

ps, we wont be separating the gas, so the magnets are out.

[BioFarmer93]

22350, sorry it took a while to get back to you. Looking at your cutaway, does the water plenum below supply the elyte with fresh water or pre-mix? Also, it looks as if a narrow channel or perhaps a circular series of holes make the water available to the cell through the space between the double wall configuration and spills over into the active area. Is this the case? I see nothing labeled pos or neg, but see many vertical lines, and if this is drawn to scale and not just a schematic representation then the only place that is sufficiently close enough together to be cathode and anode would be the "double wall" near the exterior. I ask these questions because it looks as if you could actually supply the bubbler core with fresh water since there is room on one side for the downpipe into the bottom for the gas, why couldn't you run a tube on the other side for fresh water? I'm sure there are some subtleties involved in the design that I haven't clued in on yet, but you could actually arrange through plumbing for the fresh bubbler water that's pushed up into a reservoir with the gas to drain back down to the e-lyte area of the cell to continually replenish the e-lyte since the KOH loss is very very slow. That way all of your make up water could first be used fresh in the bubbler, scrubbing your gas cleaner, then move on to be used as e-lyte make up water...

[22350]

sorry for not being clear. here is a plan view

http://www.pauloberman.com/cellplanweb.jpg

the small holes between the plates are for water to be forced up between the plates from the plenum.

the blue square is the pump.

The orange lines are the plates.

the grey lines are the rods that hold the unit together.

p

[BioFarmer93]

22350, in your plan view, are the components scaled/proportioned correctly to one another?

[22350]

22350, in your plan view, are the components scaled/proportioned correctly to one another?

everything is scaled, except the magnet (not using anyway).

the pump size is approximate.

[BioFarmer93]

OK then given that, I would say you are going to have an awful lot of resistance from your plates being spaced so far apart. With as much space as you have to work with in that arrangement, you could have many more pairs and still have room for your pump. Are you experimenting or are you planning to install this unit in a car?

[22350]

they should have .125" spacing, but i think the image has somehow been skewed

[BioFarmer93]

Wow! OK, well see if you can somehow fix it or maybe re-attach, because at this point the only things I see that could be .125" apart are the double lines at the outside perimeter.. I'm pretty sure those aren't the plates though based on your description...

[22350]

no, the lines on the outside perimeter are the plates

[BioFarmer93]

Now that I can actually tell what is going on, I like it a lot. Not exactly your normal garage fabricate-able cell, and I can see some fab-shop expenses in your future unless you decide to go with large diameter SS tube, or already have a source for those neatly nesting shapes with th perfect .125" gap..

[22350]

Now that I can actually tell what is going on, I like it a lot. Not exactly your normal garage fabricate-able cell, and I can see some fab-shop expenses in your future unless you decide to go with large diameter SS tube, or already have a source for those neatly nesting shapes with th perfect .125" gap..

Looked at your jpg. You got it all right. I did have a retaining plate, which was going to hold down the inside plate. I just didn't picture it. The vertical grey lines are threaded rods, which hold the entire thing together. I really like it, because there is no glue and it can be disassembed without tools.

You are right, when you say that it is going to be a big pain to make. Just bending the tubes, without welding them and machining them, is $300. We went with the squared off tubes, because we are using a nano coating and they can't apply it on a round tube.

Unfortunately, after a long talk with a couple of people last night, I think we are going to be putting this design on the back burner for a little while. There are concerns that we won't be able to get the efficiency we need with this design. I am not convinced of that, but I don't have the money to build this one and then another, if this doesn't work out.

It really upsets me, because I have a nagging feeling that this design would do much better than some think.

Anyway, the nickel is now being cut up and we will be making a non-circulating series cell.

That cell will have some really cool stuff though and I will post some pictures of the design, when I have it finished.