Separation / Storage of Hydrogen

[22350]

Hey everyone. I am trying to figure out how to incorporate a small baffle into in inlet system. This is so that my regulator can handle rapid changes in requirements.

Many people have said that there is no way to compress HHO in a container. Now I don't mean for storage, but for continuous usage. It is more of a device to even out the pressure to the regulator.

Then I see this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMczuFC42V0&feature=related

This guy is compressing HHO + air, up to 50 psi.

I would like to hear some thoughts on this.

Next, someone suggested separating the H from the HHO and then compressing it into a storage container. The example of Zack West was made.

When you consider Stoichiometric fuel air ratio of 29.6%, you are looking at about 16.5 LPM of hydrogen to idle a 150cc engine.

I have seen 1000cc engines idling on 5 LPM of hydroxy.

What gives?

[Owen_]

any quantity of HHO scares the sh** out of me, i defiantly would not want to have it pressurized, maybe i'm just a wimp, but a flash back to that guys tank would be quite the mess.
Just hydrogen under pressure, different story.

[Owen_]

also air would make a reducing flame, I guess that would keep his copper radiator from turning green, but if it were me, i'd like to keep it near neutral if possible.

Also i didn't really respond to your post, that vid made me so nervous. With out pressure a holding blatter of some sort, like a Mylar balloon might work for you.

that 1000cc engine was likely running lean, lean to the point it would burn out if you kept it running that way.

[Helz_McFugly]

my thoughts on this video? Im glad I dont live anywhere near this moron. that bronze wool isnt fail proof.
http://jkbaker.com/gallery/d/583-1/nuke.gif

[Roland Jacques]

When you consider Stoichiometric fuel air ratio of 29.6%, you are looking at about 16.5 LPM of hydrogen to idle a 150cc engine.

I have seen 1000cc engines idling on 5 LPM of hydroxy.

What gives?


I'm guessing the 5 LPM idling motor was NO AIR, just HHO right?
(I wish i still had that link to that web site they had LP conversions hardware...)

How did you come up with 16.5 LPM for the 150 cc?

[cabrera]

I like the dramatic effect the the sound of little children playing in the same room made on that video!
Sort of like the "Dangers of a Home Meth Lab" effect!

[22350]

I'm guessing the 5 LPM idling motor was NO AIR, just HHO right?
(I wish i still had that link to that web site they had LP conversions hardware...)

How did you come up with 16.5 LPM for the 150 cc?

The best place to get stuff is:

http://www.carbturbo.com/

I messed up the calculations.

At 1500 rpm, you have 750 power strokes.

750 * 150cc is 112500cc of engine volume at idle.

112500cc = 112.5 Liters

Hydrogen is 30% of the air fuel mixture, so that's 33.75 liters of hydrogen per minute.

Hydroxy is 2/3 Hydrogen (this is where i screwed up), so if you separated the hydrogen out, you would need 50.625 Liters per minute of Hydroxy to end up with 33.75 Liters of Hydrogen.

This doesn't seem right to me, so I am looking for where my mistake is.

[Philldpapill]

My favorite part of the video is not even 10 seconds in, and the VERY first thing he says in a comment box is "i will block ass holes". Wow, I, as a total newbie to HHO, sure want to stick around to see what this stuff is about. LOL

[Roland Jacques]

I messed up the calculations.

At 1500 rpm, you have 750 power strokes.

750 * 150cc is 112500cc of engine volume at idle.

112500cc = 112.5 Liters

Hydrogen is 30% of the air fuel mixture, so that's 33.75 liters of hydrogen per minute.

Hydroxy is 2/3 Hydrogen (this is where i screwed up), so if you separated the hydrogen out, you would need 50.625 Liters per minute of Hydroxy to end up with 33.75 Liters of Hydrogen.

This doesn't seem right to me, so I am looking for where my mistake is.

1. I think the 30% number you are refering to is "H2 to O2" (not air).
So air is 21% O2. This will help a little.

2. Do you have a link to the 1000CC engine running on 5lpm? I think you'll find a VE thing going on with that.

[H2OPWR]

1. I think the 30% number you are refering to is "H2 to O2" (not air).
So air is 21% O2. This will help a little.

2. Do you have a link to the 1000CC engine running on 5lpm? I think you'll find a VE thing going on with that.

I can not remember the Youtube users name but there is a video out there where the person was running a Geo Metro (1000 cc). His claim was that he was running it on 5 lpm HHO. He did quite the demonstration and had many beleiving him. It was a total scam. Later he admitted that he had made an error in his calculations because he had HHO pressurized and had not taken that into count. He the went on to run the engine on HHO again. This time I beleive that he claimed around 15 LPM. Both were total scam's. He is selling devices and figured running an engine off one of his devices would sell more.

Just another BS story that makes all look like snake oil salesmen,

Larry

[22350]

1. I think the 30% number you are refering to is "H2 to O2" (not air).
So air is 21% O2. This will help a little.

2. Do you have a link to the 1000CC engine running on 5lpm? I think you'll find a VE thing going on with that.

Actally, the guy is saying that it really took him 15LPM. I didn't see that he was doing something else to get it down to 5LPM.

Regarding the 30%. That is the stoichiometric fuel air mixture for Hydrogen in a internal combustion engine.

I think gas is 14%.

It has nothing to do with HHO. If I split the H off, it would take that much H to be at the correct fuel air mixture.

[22350]

I can not remember the Youtube users name but there is a video out there where the person was running a Geo Metro (1000 cc). His claim was that he was running it on 5 lpm HHO. He did quite the demonstration and had many beleiving him. It was a total scam. Later he admitted that he had made an error in his calculations because he had HHO pressurized and had not taken that into count. He the went on to run the engine on HHO again. This time I beleive that he claimed around 15 LPM. Both were total scam's. He is selling devices and figured running an engine off one of his devices would sell more.

Just another BS story that makes all look like snake oil salesmen,

Larry

Yea, he was running through a gas filled bubbler. I am really trying to wrap my head around how much HHO it will take to run a 150cc engine, up to 6000 rpms.

If you go by the stoichiometric mixture, it is going to take 50 LPM just to idle.

I have a hard time believing that.

[Owen_]

It's a complicated thing figure out. If your just using HHO w/out air then you have a very powerful fuel. Nitrogen fills up most of your engines cylinders when your burning gasoline. If you look at simply the potential energy of H vs. gasoline, I don't know those # off hand, I'd have to look them up, and then figure out what it takes to run the engine in question on as far as gasoline consumption.

[22350]

you have to use a higher ratio of hydrogen, that drives down the possible power output of a internal combustion engine, to 85% power of gas. If you do direct injection, you can actually get more out of a hydrogen engine vs. gas.

I guess I am never going to know how much of this gas it takes, until I plug this engine on to a HHO generator and try to run it.

In the last two years I have not been able to find one person who can actually tell me what it takes to run an ICE.

Bob told me once that he had a 650 two stroke running on 18 LPM. That puts my 150 at just over 4 LPM. But wait! the two stroke has twice as many power strokes.

Who knows? We will be done eliminating our waste spark next week and we have a cell that makes over 3 LPM. We will connect it through a proper LP carb and see once and for all what we need.

[H2OPWR]

Yea, he was running through a gas filled bubbler. I am really trying to wrap my head around how much HHO it will take to run a 150cc engine, up to 6000 rpms.

If you go by the stoichiometric mixture, it is going to take 50 LPM just to idle.

I have a hard time believing that.

I have talked to many folks alot that have run engines off just HHO. The top three that I know of are BruteForceEngineering, D3ADP001, and SmartScarecrow. I have had many many conversations with them. I have an 8KW Genset that is powered by a Subaru 404CC engine. They all say that to idle one it will take about 10 LPM per 100CC of engine size. That number should decrease slightly as the engine size goes up. That is their opinion based on experience. Also you can not run it off pure HHO. You must mix in at least 75 to 80% atmosphere with the HHO.

As soon as it warms up I am going to do some tests boosting the gasoline on mine with HHO. Down the road I want to run it off HHO only. I really want to know just how much additional power it will take to run the Gen Set than the Gen Set will produce. Until now it is all speculation.

To do that I will need to make a 6X6 Nickel cell that has around 60 plates. From my tests so far with my current cell I should be able to push that to around 50 LPM if done correctly maybe more.

Larry

[22350]

I have talked to many folks alot that have run engines off just HHO. The top three that I know of are BruteForceEngineering, D3ADP001, and SmartScarecrow. I have had many many conversations with them. I have an 8KW Genset that is powered by a Subaru 404CC engine. They all say that to idle one it will take about 10 LPM per 100CC of engine size. That number should decrease slightly as the engine size goes up. That is their opinion based on experience. Also you can not run it off pure HHO. You must mix in at least 75 to 80% atmosphere with the HHO.

As soon as it warms up I am going to do some tests boosting the gasoline on mine with HHO. Down the road I want to run it off HHO only. I really want to know just how much additional power it will take to run the Gen Set than the Gen Set will produce. Until now it is all speculation.

To do that I will need to make a 6X6 Nickel cell that has around 60 plates. From my tests so far with my current cell I should be able to push that to around 50 LPM if done correctly maybe more.

Larry


I guess my question is: Have these guys actually used any sort of carburetor?

I was looking at smartscarcrow's generator and he was dumping it in the air-box.

Everyone I see, short of the guy with the geo metro is just dumping into the air-box, without any sort of metering.

[22350]

Another thing to note is that the amount of hydroxy required to run an engine drops dramatically, when you have a hemispherical combustion chamber.

Bob says that it requires 1/3 the amount with the hemispherical head.

[H2OPWR]

I guess my question is: Have these guys actually used any sort of carburetor?

I was looking at smartscarcrow's generator and he was dumping it in the air-box.

Everyone I see, short of the guy with the geo metro is just dumping into the air-box, without any sort of metering.

I agree totally that their method was very crude at best. I have yet to see anyone use an actual vapor carb. The guy with the Geo did but he is scamming everyone by leading them to beleive that 5 LPM would idle that engine. When I am ready to try mine totally on HHO I will use a vapor carb and control the cell with pressure switches in the resevoir.

Larry

[22350]

I agree totally that their method was very crude at best. I have yet to see anyone use an actual vapor carb. The guy with the Geo did but he is scamming everyone by leading them to beleive that 5 LPM would idle that engine. When I am ready to try mine totally on HHO I will use a vapor carb and control the cell with pressure switches in the resevoir.

Larry

I think this is why we never get a solid baseline on how much HHO it takes to operate an engine.

On our first run, we used a venture body, bolted on to the front of the throttle body. Feeding that was a low pressure regulator, with a high pressure regulator feeding that from upstream. In addition, there was an idle feed into the intake manifold.

This worked (badly) for LP. It was incorrect for the application. For hydroxy, I think it would have worked too, except we had a flashback which destroyed the regulators.

We also had a problem with the 4 retail electrolysis units, which didn't make a half a liter between all of them. The unit we had before those was a Paul Zigouras unit. Don't get me started on that.

Now we have our little test unit, which I know will make 3 LPM. We also have a proper LP carburetor, rather than the LP venture ring.

Next week, when the waste spark is gone, I think we might give it another try. Maybe we can get the idle requirements with the 3 LPM unit.

[Roland Jacques]

1. I think the 30% number you are refering to is "H2 to O2" (not air).
So air is 21% O2. This will help a little.


Ooops my mistake, your right with your ratios. Between my disleksia and hurrying = mixing numbers, Sorry :o

[H2OPWR]

I think this is why we never get a solid baseline on how much HHO it takes to operate an engine.

On our first run, we used a venture body, bolted on to the front of the throttle body. Feeding that was a low pressure regulator, with a high pressure regulator feeding that from upstream. In addition, there was an idle feed into the intake manifold.

This worked (badly) for LP. It was incorrect for the application. For hydroxy, I think it would have worked too, except we had a flashback which destroyed the regulators.

We also had a problem with the 4 retail electrolysis units, which didn't make a half a liter between all of them. The unit we had before those was a Paul Zigouras unit. Don't get me started on that.

Now we have our little test unit, which I know will make 3 LPM. We also have a proper LP carburetor, rather than the LP venture ring.

Next week, when the waste spark is gone, I think we might give it another try. Maybe we can get the idle requirements with the 3 LPM unit.

I would love to see that done. If 3 LPM can even idle a 150 CC engine then that would be a huge breakthrough. For my 404 CC engine I am planning on making 40 to 50 LPM. If I could cut that in half then the build would be much less expensive.

Keep us posted.

Larry

[22350]

I am starting to think that I am going to have to separate the gas, so that I can have some sort of a storage tank.

[Helz_McFugly]

making a reactor that makes hydrogen on one side and oxy on the other is very easy. I would love to see some builds that are setup like that. not many make them

[22350]

I am trying to do something more like Zach West. You separate the gas after making it.

That way you can have an efficient cell.

P

[Helz_McFugly]

hmm, thats new to me. ill have to research that.

[Helz_McFugly]

do you ahve a link to how he does it?

[hhonewbie]

do you ahve a link to how he does it?

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/ZachWest.pdf
It may require storing hydrogen at 30psi:eek:
A little to complex. Its easier just to mod MAP/MAF EFIE

[22350]

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/ZachWest.pdf
It may require storing hydrogen at 30psi:eek:
A little to complex. Its easier just to mod MAP/MAF EFIE

I don't know if it is easier. If you are boosting, you don't need to store the gas. Derek Z. doesn't store the gas.

Most boosters won't make that much gas and if you split off the H, it is even less.

[BioFarmer93]

Did either one of you guys bother to take a look at the "isolation cell" I posted about and put a .jpg of the drawing in with a few days ago? I'm up to my ass in dry cell building (the mixed gas kind) and frankly don't want to allocate the bucks to another project before I finish this one. The isolation cell separates the gases and there is no way it can be less efficient than currently available (affordable) designs or finished units for sale. It builds almost exactly like a drycell but uses a double layer of tight weave heavy dacron as an ionic membrane and vents the oxygen to the atmosphere so there can not be any cross contamination of O2 into the hydrogen side, leaving the hydrogen clean enough for catalytic scrubbing and compression. The plate spacing still works out to be around .090". No neutral plates though, since they're bipolar.. each plate has to be pos or neg and vents to its own side of the unit. All the plates are supplied at top and bottom (diagonally) with power to try and minimize the SS resistive loss issues encountered with plates using single point supply. Anyway, the cad files are available if anyone is interested and yes, before anyone accuses me of trying to get someone else to build an as-yet unproven design of mine I say "hell yes, I'm too busy right now and have too much money tied up in other adventures at the moment..." It's here if you want it. If you can't tell what's going on from the drawing and brief description I'll be glad to correspond with anyone that's interested. If you're not interested, don't bust my balls about it and waste time (yours AND mine) writing negative BS back at me. . -later

[hhonewbie]

Yes Bio I have seen it and have no doubts it will work.
Will the cell have any Nuetral plates?
How do you intent to circulate the electrolyte?

I thought of this method before but resources and the cost of Nafion ionic membranes are beyond my means here in New Zealand

[BioFarmer93]

Dacron, not Nafion for membrane, inexpensive. Circulation by thermosiphon or pump, dependent upon how hard the cell is over-driven. No neutrals, plates must be pos or neg not bipolar, as the gas must be specific to each plate for proper separation. You absolutely would have to control the voltage with this type of cell unless you were prepared to build 4 or 5 of them and then connect them in series to control voltage that way.

[22350]

where is this cell that you are talking about

[BioFarmer93]

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=6065

[22350]

that's great, what are the membranes? If it is PEM, we are talking about 1200 dollars to outfit this cell.

Paul

[BioFarmer93]

Each membrane is comprised of two layers of medium-heavy tightly woven Dacron cloth, available in dress shops, cloth stores and sail lofts everywhere.
Note, though; perimeters must be made non-porous in some manner (epoxy or acrylic impregnation?) so that they don't wick electrolyte. Containing the edges of the membranes within the outer perimeter of the gaskets would also be a viable option. As you place a gasket, align the membrane on top of it, trimmed so that there is 1/4" of gasket beyond the edge of membrane all the way around. When the cell is torqued down the gasket should compress enough to capture & encapsulate the membrane edges and seal them. If not, then a narrow bead of pvc cement at the very outermost edge of the gaskets will seal the deal and not work its way into the electrolyte.

[22350]

do you have one of these working?

[BioFarmer93]

Please go back to your post #28 and re-read everything from that point on, once more, slowly.

[22350]

Please go back to your post #28 and re-read everything from that point on, once more, slowly.

Wow, you aren't going to make any friends like that.

Why would you think sail cloth would work as a PEM film?

PEM is too expensive and I wouldn't build a cell like this, on the chance that sail cloth would work.

[Owen_]

Why would you think sail cloth would work as a PEM film?

PEM is too expensive and I wouldn't build a cell like this, on the chance that sail cloth would work.

It seems like it would work, in theory, like most cloth that could hold up. With a large plate gap, and your cell perfectly vertical, anything porous should do the trick.

[22350]

it has to pass protons. can't be an insulator.

[BioFarmer93]

"Wow, you aren't going to make any friends like that."

I was trying to be as polite as possible, it was annoying me that you weren't reading and you were asking every question I had just answered only moments earlier. I was actually beginning to wonder if you were doing it on purpose...

"Why would you think sail cloth would work as a PEM film?"

Simple, in this style cell the O2 is vented to atmosphere, so no pressure builds in oxygen areas but hydrogen areas have slight back pressure from bubbler so no oxygen in the hydrogen. The Dacron I'm referring to is VERY tightly woven, difficult to blow through.. Two layers, impossible. No gas passes. When wet with electrolyte though (handles KOH well) electricity passes fine. It doesn't have to be completely gas impermeable, just impermeable enough at the pressures we require of it.

"PEM is too expensive and I wouldn't build a cell like this, on the chance that sail cloth would work."

I assume you mean "wouldn't work"... Anyway, no problem, no one is twisting your arm. Like I said before, it's here if anyone is interested.
Even though I haven't gotten around to building the cell itself, I have tested the low pressure gas holding ability of a double layer of this Dacron, and researched its chemical resistance properties... It looks pretty good from where I'm standing and when I get the time it will be used as described.

[22350]

I was trying to be as polite as possible, it was annoying me that you weren't reading and you were asking every question I had just answered only moments earlier. I was actually beginning to wonder if you were doing it on purpose...


Well you should try a little harder. Your post #29 was on a previous page, by the time I checked back in on the thread. No one is doing anything on purpose. I am asking the questions, because I posted this thread.



Simple, in this style cell the O2 is vented to atmosphere, so no pressure builds in oxygen areas but hydrogen areas have slight back pressure from bubbler so no oxygen in the hydrogen. The Dacron I'm referring to is VERY tightly woven, difficult to blow through.. Two layers, impossible. No gas passes. When wet with electrolyte though (handles KOH well) electricity passes fine. It doesn't have to be completely gas impermeable, just impermeable enough at the pressures we require of it.


Who knows, it might work. It just seems like the material really needs to pass protons. Dacron might pass some, if wet, but I think it will kill the efficiency of the cell. You now can't have the optimal plate spacing.



I assume you mean "wouldn't work"... Anyway, no problem, no one is twisting your arm. Like I said before, it's here if anyone is interested.
Even though I haven't gotten around to building the cell itself, I have tested the low pressure gas holding ability of a double layer of this Dacron, and researched its chemical resistance properties... It looks pretty good from where I'm standing and when I get the time it will be used as described.

No, I meant "on the chance it would work". Please go back and read once more slowly. (isn't that a crap thing to say to someone?)

I am sure Dacron would hold the gas. The problem is: If you end up with a cell that makes a half a liter of gas a minute, the Dacron isn't doing you any favors.

[Philldpapill]

Wow, sorry if I'm just jumping in here.... But a he isn't using it as a PEM, 22350. A PEM is only to allow hydrogen ions to pass through, and NOTHING else. Who the hell cares if some electrolyte and water pass through as well? This isn't a REAL fuel cell(although some people call an HHO a fuel cell which is totally WRONG). Personally, I like the Dacron idea. I've made a few cell designs that are horribly inefficient, but capture pure hydrogen. The Dacron sounds like the perfect stuff to use in this type of cell.

The slight positive pressure sounds like it would work very well. I think you might need to create some kind of control mechanism that would open/close a valve to vent off the O2. Otherwise, you would begin to build up an H2 pocket on one side of the cell, and electrolyte would bubble out the other side of the cell. How about letting this valve control sense the E-lyte level, and open/close the valve to vent the O2, at certain limits? This way, you would have the back pressure sometimes to flush the Dacron of any O2 that could possibly seep over to the H2 side. Very nice, BioFarmer93! (sorry for taking his side! lol)

[22350]

Wow, sorry if I'm just jumping in here.... But a he isn't using it as a PEM, 22350. A PEM is only to allow hydrogen ions to pass through, and NOTHING else. Who the hell cares if some electrolyte and water pass through as well? This isn't a REAL fuel cell(although some people call an HHO a fuel cell which is totally WRONG). Personally, I like the Dacron idea. I've made a few cell designs that are horribly inefficient, but capture pure hydrogen. The Dacron sounds like the perfect stuff to use in this type of cell.

The slight positive pressure sounds like it would work very well. I think you might need to create some kind of control mechanism that would open/close a valve to vent off the O2. Otherwise, you would begin to build up an H2 pocket on one side of the cell, and electrolyte would bubble out the other side of the cell. How about letting this valve control sense the E-lyte level, and open/close the valve to vent the O2, at certain limits? This way, you would have the back pressure sometimes to flush the Dacron of any O2 that could possibly seep over to the H2 side. Very nice, BioFarmer93! (sorry for taking his side! lol)

my understanding is that the pem can be used for fuel cells, to make electricity. It can also be used during electolysis, to produce separate gas.

I said the dacron might work, but I just think it will interfer with the eficiency of the cell. If anyone wants to build a cell based on this idea, I would love to hear how it turns out.

[Philldpapill]

Actually, I think a PEM wouldn't work at all. If I can remember correctly, it's actually an insulator(internally) and would ONLY let protons(H+ ions) through. Totally useless for this application as the electrons can't migrate via ions or by themself. Remember, PEM is Proton Exchange Membrane... ONLY protons are able to pass and this fact is what makes them work in a real fuel cell.

[BioFarmer93]

@ 22350- I'm old and it was late, past my bedtime. Usually by that time of the evening I'm not even as polite as I was to you but I had my best manners on since I'm fairly new to this board also. Regarding your comment about the plate spacing- What do YOU consider optimal? I use .040" in my dry cells and have seen everything from .1875" to .030" used in different configurations and for varying elyte flow rates. The most common seems to fall between .0625" & .125". The design we are talking about now manages to keep the spacing at about .093", not too awfully bad IMO. Certain trade offs are unavoidable, and you still get to keep a fairly normal looking and normal sized unit.

@ Philldpapill- Thank you for the clarification, with the thread taking such a contentious turn I was rapidly feeling less inclined to continue my explanation. Your idea about a pressure sensor/elyte level controlling valve would work just fine, but adds a level of complexity that begins to approach the edge of my comfort range- you MUST be an engineer! LOL! I had planned on just using water column pressure, essentialy just two different reservoirs since the pos and neg plates are supplied and vented independently. Bear in mind this design was created for a stationary installation though.. I think for an automotive application your pressure controlled valve would pretty much be essential. Have you had occasion to look into catalytic scrubbers for H2? From what I have been able to find out so far the O2 contamination level needs to be <1% and the gas needs to be bone dry. Apparently moisture will ruin the catalyst and too much oxy makes them run hot. I'm thinking maybe swapable pre-plumbed cannisters full of dessicant crystals...

[22350]

Actually, I think a PEM wouldn't work at all. If I can remember correctly, it's actually an insulator(internally) and would ONLY let protons(H+ ions) through. Totally useless for this application as the electrons can't migrate via ions or by themself. Remember, PEM is Proton Exchange Membrane... ONLY protons are able to pass and this fact is what makes them work in a real fuel cell.

I will have to read back on this.


Wait, found it. It isn't a standard configuration, but this is what I was thinking about:

http://www.infinityfuel.com/pemtechnology.htm

thanks

[Philldpapill]

@22350, yep, that looks right. Yeah, you could run a fuel cell in reverse. That's pretty cool, IMO!

@BioFarmer, yeah, I am... I'm cursed with the insatiable hunger for improving a process or design. Sometimes, even in work, it's a bad thing because I end up over complicating something. However, with regards to the pressure sensor/elyte sensor, It might be a pretty good way to go so that you can keep the fluid in check. Nice design!

[22350]

Just got the nickel for my new generator. I can't believe how heavy this stuff is.

[dataman19]

Just a few point about Hydrogen as a motor fuel.
..
My data comes from a project where we built 120 Ford F-150's that ran on anhydrous (pure) Hydrogen.....
..
1 KG of hydrogen equates to 1 gallon of gasoline.
..
Hydrogen will tend to displace all other gases in a combustion chamber and will not allow for natural ingestion of other gasses (ie no air into the combustion chamber).
..
Air has to be force fed (in other words - we cheated and used a super charger).
...
HHO has the advantage of already having the oxygen - so there is less issues with the hydrogen displacing the air or oxygen.
..
The problem with a hydrogen fueled internal combustion engine is the fact that hydrogen will rapidly fill the combustion chamber, literally covering all the available space and leave no room for air.
..
Most hydrogen fired engines fire after top dead center. This is because hydrogen gas will not compress after ignition - it will only expand exponentially. So the engine must fire after top dead center.
...
Hydrogen Injectors are readily available, since gaseous motor fuels are already commonly available. Ever heard of LPG Injectors? Or even better - CNG Injectors?
...
As for compressing Hydrogen with any air - I shutter to think of the hazards. Since Hydrogen is explosive and volatile in mixtures as low as 14% of hydrogen by volume.
..
Still - Hydrogen as a motor fuel goes back to the 1930's - a long time. Now if we can get this on-site production barrier licked we can get on with it...
..
dataman19

[22350]

Just a few point about Hydrogen as a motor fuel.
..
My data comes from a project where we built 120 Ford F-150's that ran on anhydrous (pure) Hydrogen.....
..
1 KG of hydrogen equates to 1 gallon of gasoline.
..
Hydrogen will tend to displace all other gases in a combustion chamber and will not allow for natural ingestion of other gasses (ie no air into the combustion chamber).
..
Air has to be force fed (in other words - we cheated and used a super charger).
...
HHO has the advantage of already having the oxygen - so there is less issues with the hydrogen displacing the air or oxygen.
..
The problem with a hydrogen fueled internal combustion engine is the fact that hydrogen will rapidly fill the combustion chamber, literally covering all the available space and leave no room for air.
..
Most hydrogen fired engines fire after top dead center. This is because hydrogen gas will not compress after ignition - it will only expand exponentially. So the engine must fire after top dead center.
...
Hydrogen Injectors are readily available, since gaseous motor fuels are already commonly available. Ever heard of LPG Injectors? Or even better - CNG Injectors?
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As for compressing Hydrogen with any air - I shutter to think of the hazards. Since Hydrogen is explosive and volatile in mixtures as low as 14% of hydrogen by volume.
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Still - Hydrogen as a motor fuel goes back to the 1930's - a long time. Now if we can get this on-site production barrier licked we can get on with it...
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dataman19

It's funny, we considered a supercharger, but we wanted to use it to compensate for the power loss.

with the injectors, that wouldn't matter, right? You could inject the fuel after the air charge was brought in.

can you give me any leads on where to get these injectors?