Questions about performance

[22350]

Hello everyone.

This is my first post, but I have been a member of the Hydroxy Yahoo group for quite a while.

I just recently built a test prototype of a small cell.

It is a special two cell series design, as each cell's electrolyte is completely isolated from the other. There is also a circulation component. The plates are 6" x 6"

Anyway, we just ran it for the first time this weekend. Driven at 4V and 18A, our production was just over .5LPM. With the pump wattage, we are talking about 158 watts per Liter. This is running about 85f.

We then over-drove the cell to 6V and 85A. We got 3 LPM. Not steam. The circulation pumps kept the temp down. With pump wattage, we were doing 172 watts per liter. Running 100f.

This is three 6" plates, mind you. No PWM.

I had some shops saying that they were producing 1 LPM at 140 watts.

Can anyone confirm this?

[H2OPWR]

Hello everyone.

This is my first post, but I have been a member of the Hydroxy Yahoo group for quite a while.

I just recently built a test prototype of a small cell.

It is a special two cell series design, as each cell's electrolyte is completely isolated from the other. There is also a circulation component. The plates are 6" x 6"

Anyway, we just ran it for the first time this weekend. Driven at 4V and 18A, our production was just over .5LPM. With the pump wattage, we are talking about 158 watts per Liter. This is running about 85f.

We then over-drove the cell to 6V and 85A. We got 3 LPM. Not steam. The circulation pumps kept the temp down. With pump wattage, we were doing 172 watts per liter. Running 100f.

This is three 6" plates, mind you. No PWM.

I had some shops saying that they were producing 1 LPM at 140 watts.

Can anyone confirm this?

The numbers you are talking are completely doable with current leakage totally blocked. With my Nickel cell I can consistantly do mid to high 6's as far as MMW with no water vapor. A while back I built a no hole cell I was in the mid 7's but that was with very expensive nano particle coated plates and a very complex high dollar design.

There are lots and lots of claims out there of well over 7 MMW. The thing they all have in common is that they are just using a standard dry cell of some kind. I have built enough cells and ran enough tests that I am quite sure that most of those real high MMW claims are flawed in some way or another. Usually the gas is very hot and contains alot of water vapor. If you can see the gas at all then it is contaminated with water and probablt some KOH. You should be able to hold a kleenex over the end of your discharge tube for a long time and never get it moist.

Larry

[22350]

The numbers you are talking are completely doable with current leakage totally blocked. With my Nickel cell I can consistantly do mid to high 6's as far as MMW with no water vapor. A while back I built a no hole cell I was in the mid 7's but that was with very expensive nano particle coated plates and a very complex high dollar design.

There are lots and lots of claims out there of well over 7 MMW. The thing they all have in common is that they are just using a standard dry cell of some kind. I have built enough cells and ran enough tests that I am quite sure that most of those real high MMW claims are flawed in some way or another. Usually the gas is very hot and contains alot of water vapor. If you can see the gas at all then it is contaminated with water and probablt some KOH. You should be able to hold a kleenex over the end of your discharge tube for a long time and never get it moist.

Larry

Yea, this set up has some nano stuff going on.

I have attached a video. The cell is a mess, but it was just to test circulation / heat / construction materials.

I was getting a couple wisps of smoke out of it, but the plates are so small that we had to drive it pretty hard.

I guess what I am curious about is that some people are claiming to hit 140 watts per liter. The thing is that I haven't had anyone quote power figures that equal that sort of wattage.

Can you point me at any examples?

<object width="480" height="320"><param name="cell2" value="http://www.pauloberman.com/cell2.mov"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.pauloberman.com/cell2.mov" type="type="application/x-quicktime-media-link" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="480" height="320"></embed></object>

[H2OPWR]

[QUOTE=22350;36679]Yea, this set up has some nano stuff going on.

I have attached a video. The cell is a mess, but it was just to test circulation / heat / construction materials.

I was getting a couple wisps of smoke out of it, but the plates are so small that we had to drive it pretty hard.

I guess what I am curious about is that some people are claiming to hit 140 watts per liter. The thing is that I haven't had anyone quote power figures that equal that sort of wattage.

Can you point me at any examples?


1 liter of gas with 140 input watts is 7.14 MMW. That is hard to do. My nano particle cells were capable of that and I have several video's on my youtube channel of them. The acrylic eventually failed because I ran them too hot. I still have the plates and a new build with Teflon instead of Acrylic is in the future. That cell when done correctly in a lab is capable of even more. I could never duplicate Quantum Sphere's results. I suspect that there was alot higher temperatures than the Acrylic would allow mw to run. I am now attempting to get to those type numbers with my Nickel cell. I think it is possible but very hard.

Larry

[22350]

1 liter of gas with 140 input watts is 7.14 MMW. That is hard to do. My nano particle cells were capable of that and I have several video's on my youtube channel of them. The acrylic eventually failed because I ran them too hot. I still have the plates and a new build with Teflon instead of Acrylic is in the future. That cell when done correctly in a lab is capable of even more. I could never duplicate Quantum Sphere's results. I suspect that there was alot higher temperatures than the Acrylic would allow mw to run. I am now attempting to get to those type numbers with my Nickel cell. I think it is possible but very hard.

Larry

Hey Larry, I am using Quantum Sphere's nano also.

I have just calculated the MMW and at optimal power, It is 6.94

When I over drive, it drops to 5.88, but I am making 3 LPM of gas.

I need to get to 3 LPM on 400 watts brute, and if my expanded cell multiplies out, I should be just over that.

Are you using PWM on your cells? Maybe, when I finalize my design, you can help me out with getting my power requirements down. You know, some Hex voodoo?

[22350]

1 liter of gas with 140 input watts is 7.14 MMW. That is hard to do. My nano particle cells were capable of that and I have several video's on my youtube channel of them. The acrylic eventually failed because I ran them too hot. I still have the plates and a new build with Teflon instead of Acrylic is in the future. That cell when done correctly in a lab is capable of even more. I could never duplicate Quantum Sphere's results. I suspect that there was alot higher temperatures than the Acrylic would allow mw to run. I am now attempting to get to those type numbers with my Nickel cell. I think it is possible but very hard.

Larry

Just another note:, I think without some sort of sump circulation, the temp is always going to get too high.

I don't think I broke 100f, even during over driving.

[Roland Jacques]

FWIW, Those types of flow meters have a correction factor of about 30% when being used with HHO. They also have some other issues as far as accuracy goes. An Endometer (bottle type) will give you a more accurate reading.

[22350]

FWIW, Those types of flow meters have a correction factor of about 30% when being used with HHO. They also have some other issues as far as accuracy goes. An Endometer (bottle type) will give you a more accurate reading.

Not in this case Roland.

I had these meters calibrated and manufactured by dwyer. They are set for hydroxy.

[22350]

I just realized that I made a mistake on my posting.

All the production results are based on only a total of 110 square inches.

I did not take into account that I have my spacer shims taking up 8.5 square inches per surface area.

That's kind of cool.

[astrocady]

I'm sorry, but I just have to ask. What is MMW and what is the formula? I've been hoping for some weeks someone else would ask, and even did a couple of google searches, but couldn't fine anything. So, I'll just suck up my pride and ask.

Steve

[Roland Jacques]

I'm sorry, but I just have to ask. What is MMW and what is the formula? I've been hoping for some weeks someone else would ask, and even did a couple of google searches, but couldn't fine anything. So, I'll just suck up my pride and ask.

Steve
Steve,
MMW Milliliter per Minute per Watt. It's a unit of measurement that we use for comparison. Keep in mind that unless all the interments that we use for measurements are accurate (calibrated) some MMWs are just ball park figures.
http://www.hho-generator.de/en/hho-mmw-calculator.htm
http://www.nicksrealm.com/HHO/Calculator.html

[Philldpapill]

Expanding on what Roland said... MMW is essentially a measurement of of efficiency with regard to how much energy it took to create the gas you made. The less energy it takes to make a liter of HHO, the more efficient your design is. There IS an upper limit of this number, but I can't remember what it is right now. It has to do with electrochemistry and just the basic law of conservation of energy. Anyone that claims they are getting a number higher than this upper limit, is either not telling the truth(e.g. certain Jamaican fellows and other people), or their measurements just aren't accurate.

I don't mean to call anyone a lier, but so far, with over 200 years of solid physics to back it up, no one and no thing has ever broken the law of conservation of energy. Maybe someone will someday, but everything so far shows it's a universal law. Sorry if that's a little off topic. :)

[astrocady]

Thanks for the info. I'm sitting at about 2.7mmw, so I've got a ways to go :(

[22350]

what's your spacing?

[Owen_]

Thanks for the info. I'm sitting at about 2.7mmw, so I've got a ways to go :(

Nice to see your getting plausible results, so your testing seems to be good! Plate spacing, thickness of your plates, electrolyte mix,& voltage across each gap would be good for us to know.

[astrocady]

Thanks for the encouragement, guys! My plate are .032 316 stainless and the gasket material between them is 1/8" uncompressed. I running KOH at 28% with a constant current PWM set at 28 amps. I have 2 dry cells, each with a configuration of +nnnnn- and I'm reading 3.2v (sometimes flickering to 3.1) between plates on my digital vom.

This build has been running for one tank full of gas. I haven't checked output during this time (been cold in Florida), but the output at the beginning was a paltry .8 lmp for BOTH cells together. This is lhalf of what I had hoped for. I'm hoping that after burning in for the past 2 weeks that my production has increased. It's supposed to be warm this weekend so I should be able to get my litter bottle and bucket of water out and do some tests.

Any and all help appreciated!
Thanks again,
Steve

[H2OPWR]

Thanks for the encouragement, guys! My plate are .032 316 stainless and the gasket material between them is 1/8" uncompressed. I running KOH at 28% with a constant current PWM set at 28 amps. I have 2 dry cells, each with a configuration of +nnnnn- and I'm reading 3.2v (sometimes flickering to 3.1) between plates on my digital vom.

This build has been running for one tank full of gas. I haven't checked output during this time (been cold in Florida), but the output at the beginning was a paltry .8 lmp for BOTH cells together. This is lhalf of what I had hoped for. I'm hoping that after burning in for the past 2 weeks that my production has increased. It's supposed to be warm this weekend so I should be able to get my litter bottle and bucket of water out and do some tests.

Any and all help appreciated!
Thanks again,
Steve

Something is weird here. If you have 5 N plates at automotive voltage then you should be at 2.3 volts per gap. Not 3.2. The production seems way too low for a normal dry cell at 28 amps. You should be getting between 1.5 and 1.8 LPM. I would double check all the readings.

Good Luck
Larry

[astrocady]

Something is weird here. If you have 5 N plates at automotive voltage then you should be at 2.3 volts per gap. Not 3.2. The production seems way too low for a normal dry cell at 28 amps. You should be getting between 1.5 and 1.8 LPM. I would double check all the readings.
Good Luck
Larry

Sorry, I can't type == my voltage is 2.2 per gap, not 3.2 :eek:

And yes, I expected at least 1.5 lpm but that is not what I am getting -- at least not during the first couple of hours of operation. I'm hoping for some improvement as they have "burnt in". Will be doing some bottle test this weekend and will report any changes.

[astrocady]

Quick update. Just did bottle test and production has increased to 1.13 lpm after about 300 miles of burning in. Still about .4 lpm shy, but gaining on it.

[H2OPWR]

Quick update. Just did bottle test and production has increased to 1.13 lpm after about 300 miles of burning in. Still about .4 lpm shy, but gaining on it.

As most people here know I am a big fan of strong electrolite. I generally use somewhere between 28 and 33% KOH by weight. Making the cell more conductive just make sence. With that said I have noticed over and over. If you have your e-lite too strong and nothing to help block current from jumping and skipping plates your effeciency will actually decrease. Strong KOH does infact make the water more conductive but it does nothing for the plates. You can actually increase current leakage and decrease overall cell effeciency with strong KOH due to this. Just a suggestion. You might want to try a much lower concentration of KOH and work your way up testing the cell along the way. You might find some gains there.

Larry

[astrocady]

Point taken, Larry. However, as it sits now, when I first start the unit, the duty cycle is 100% at 26 amps. After about 15 minutes, the amps rise to 28 and the duty cycle drops to about 90%. So isn't this telling me my KOH concentration is about right???

One of my concerns with this cell design is that it has FOUR 3/8" holes in each corner of the cell for electrolyte flow. I'm thinking this may be causing massive current leekage between the plates. I was told by a cell builder in CA that if they only had 2 holes (one top, one bottom with the top hole being larger) that the cell would perform better.

Does this make sence to you, Larry???

Thanks for the input,
Steve

[Owen_]

It would be worth testing if the performance difference if you plugged up half of the holes. That would be an interesting experiment.

[22350]

Well, after a much time spent away on other projects, we got back on the full size catalytic unit.

There was a lot of trouble with plate coatings, given the size (9" x 17.5"). I ended up doing a set, scrapping them and starting again. We even bought a metal heat treating furnace to get the job done, but didn't end up needing it.

So we built the box and constructed the 3 plate arrangement and put it in.

Filled it up with the KOH and that's when the trouble started. Pumps worked fine, but the box failed miserably. It leaked like a sieve.

At 10v and 180a, the 6 gauge power lugs were overcome by current and started to melt.

With all the trouble, the production read about 6LPM, then climbed to 8LPM. Then the production bounced between 6LPM and 9LPM. I believe this was the leak below the water line.

I find the results to be impressive, because any other unit I have tried, with any sort of leak, had no readable production. This unit was leaking really bad. Liquid pouring out the bottom. Power lugs loose through the top, where they had melted.

I am hoping for 10 LPM out of it, over-driven as it was. That would be about 180.7 watts per liter. Dialing the power down to optimal, I don't know what sort of efficiency I will get.

Not bad for a 2 cell unit.

We flushed the box the next day and tested the pumps. They appear to have quit. Might have to go to a gear pump. Not sure, why the unit isn't circulating.