Dry Cell, Shim Cell... Isolation Cell?

[BioFarmer93]

Oh well,
That's what I'm going to call it anyway. It sounds like something from the medical wing of a prison, but the idea is to isolate the two gasses from one another yet try to keep the efficiency as high as possible from the stand point of plate spacing. Before it hits the fan, let me say that this particular unit is NOT for a vehicle, but for making clean storable H2 for the farmstead and intended to be powered by a dedicated array of solar panels.
With the accidental discovery by H2OPWR of the insulative properties and durability of Weldon-16, the final hurdle for the "Isolation Cell" has been overcome. The gasket shape does the bulk of the work, but problem had been the plate thickness that was exposed to electrolyte at the inlet and outlet holes.
When I read a post this morning about a "no hole dry cell" I started wondering exactly how that was meant, then I saw the "Shim Cell" and realized that roughly the same thing was trying to be accomplished through a similar architecture though there was no attempt to separate the gasses.
I attached a .jpg of my design for evaluation. Constructive criticism only please... -Gus

[CNC MASTER]

I see how you are trying to seperate the gasses but, You are trying to store the H2????

Can't you just make one cell ( +nnnnn..Et Cetra? and the other -nnnnnn..Et Cetra?

[astrocady]

Gus,

My only comment is to ditch the bayanet/spade connectors! I know how nice and easy they are, but I've had NOTHING but bad luck with them. After time, they loosen then start getting hot. Eventually they melt away. And it doesn't take that much current, either. The last "commercial" cell I got was a 19 plate, 3 stack cell with spade connectors. I was running it at only 20 amps. And remember, as a 3 stack cell, the power lead to the cell is split into 4 wires (2 positive and 2 negative) so that really only 5 amps average per connecter. One connector failed at about 150 hours. I replaced the conncetors, used some copper grease and returned to service. At 434 hours it failed again. I removed the cell and replaced it with a larger 13 plate cell that used 1/4" ring connectors to attach the leads.

PS -- the connectors I use are good ones -- the higher grade heat shrink ones that McMaster-Carr cells.

[BioFarmer93]

I see how you are trying to seperate the gasses but, You are trying to store the H2????

Can't you just make one cell ( +nnnnn..Et Cetra? and the other -nnnnnn..Et Cetra?

CNC MASTER- Storage, yes, hydrogen only- no oxygen, perfectly safe... Think about your second question for a moment... Those neutral plates are making HHO, not just H or just O, so no, I couldn't make it work that way. Besides, this electrolyzer design is very much like a typical dry cell design, with just an extra gasket and two gas seperator membranes between each plate- this allows the plate spacing to still be in the "normal" range and keep the efficiency high.

[BioFarmer93]

Steve,
You're gonna freak when I tell you this, but I accidentally found a way to make them work much better. The problem was plate spacing (gasket thickness) and the fact that I went with no neutral plates this first go 'round. Plate thickness is .05", gaskets are .04", and the out to out on those bayonet receivers is about .055 or .056". You can see my dilemma... So I thought, "Hhmmm, I can gain a few thousandths if I put these things in the vise while on a plates tab." So I tried it, it worked perfectly, it also gave me about twice the contact area per connector due to the fact that the little spring curl on the backside of them was now flattened and more than just the edge (material) thickness was in contact with the back side of the tab now. Oh, and I also use use a dab of NOALOX in every single connector (female/receiver). That stuff is amazing, I use it on ALL of the electrical connections on my truck that I have ever had apart for maintenance or upgrades, it actually got me back a solid two volts of charging capacity through decreased resistance. BUT- let me say this, since I learned about copper plating stainless over in Nick's Realm, from now on the tabs get plated then the conductors get soldered directly to them... All is fair in the battle against resistance!

[myoldyourgold]

Gus, I can understand you wanting to store the H and thus the necessity to separate the O from the H and your design is excellent. My question is has anybody tested the efficiency of a zero current leakage reactor system to prove that the extra work (expense) is really worth it, compared to just insulating the holes? Insulating just the holes does not result in zero leakage. I also see the isolation design as a step in solving the heating problem in the frozen north. I have a zero leakage design, but doubt that the zero leakage design would make a significant difference over the insulated holes. If it does it would go well over Faraday in my case which is a problem the way I see it. :D Carter

[CNC MASTER]

BioFarmer93...

Isn't the original voltage meter exactly that? You know from Volta himself? Anode in one container and Cathode in opposite side...Anyhow..Thanks for. Thanks for any suggestions..

[CNC MASTER]

BioFarmer93...

Isn't the original voltage meter exactly that? You know from Volta himself? Anode in one container and Cathode in opposite side? Anyhow.. Thanks for any suggestions..

1591

[BioFarmer93]

Carter, first of all, thank you. Now, hmmm... Well, if anyone has made that particular evaluation- " My question is has anybody tested the efficiency of a zero current leakage reactor system to prove that the extra work (expense) is really worth it, compared to just insulating the holes?" I am not aware of it, doesn't mean someone out there hasn't done it, just that I personally don't know. But what I can say with confidence is, it's not really all that much extra work. Did you see my short video about cutting 5 or 6 gaskets at a time with a router? Since I made that video I have figured out two important things about doing that... First is that the "keeper" side of the cut always has to be approached from the same direction, even more important on sheet PVC than wood. Second, the face plate of the router has to bear on a thin sheet of luan or aluminum or something that wont buckle or bunch under side loading. Applying the Weldon to the area of the holes on the plates only takes slightly less than a minute a plate.. The tight weave dacron for the ionic membranes would most likely be made most easily and quickly by laying two layers of the cloth between hinged or pin registered aluminum templates, weighted somewhat and then hot wire cut about their perimeter. Their holes could be plunge cut on the same template with a heated piece of coat hanger or music wire. Actually, I see it moving along rather smartly with a bit of set-up.

Insulating just the holes does not result in zero leakage. I know that the drawing I submitted still leaves a bit to the imagination, and if I was one of those super motivated people with better time management skills than I actually possess, I would do the 3-D Sketchup of it with labels and clearer overlays, so folks could get a better idea how the gaskets work in conjunction with the Weldon around and in the plates gas holes. If the Weldon truly passes no current, as I have been assured it doesn't, then there really isn't any gas production in the duct area. I can't say there might not be a small amount of current leakage, but remember to bear in mind when visualizing this particular electrolyzer -there are no neutral plates, there cannot be, as it would contaminate the output.

[BioFarmer93]

Mr. Taylors Physical Science, 7th. grade. He had one of those "H" style cells with a 6V lantern battery hooked up to it. Then he explained what was happening and why it was happening... Nothing has ever been the same since then!
Anyway, yes.. The Isolation Cell is just a streamlined, modern day, multi-celled version of that. I honestly shouldn't call it the isolation "cell" as it actually has 20 cells.. But, "Isolated Gas Electrolyzer" is such a mouthful. -How was this used as a voltmeter? I didn't see that part:confused: -Gus

[CNC MASTER]

Hello again!

Sorry but the VoltaMeter was used for total electricity, or quantity of electricity not just volts...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltameter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hofmann_voltameter


CNC MASTER- Storage, yes, hydrogen only- no oxygen, perfectly safe... Think about your second question for a moment... Those neutral plates are making HHO, not just H or just O, so no, I couldn't make it work that way. Besides, this electrolyzer design is very much like a typical dry cell design, with just an extra gasket and two gas seperator membranes between each plate- this allows the plate spacing to still be in the "normal" range and keep the efficiency high.

It turns out we we're both miss spoken when it came to the basics, kinda scary when we get the simple stuff wrong...=0

Anywho, let me read what you wrote again so I can further ask away....

[myoldyourgold]

Gus I got exactly what your setup does and I am sure it does it well. The bottom line is that there will still be leakage because the electrolyte is a conductor and unless it is totally isolated between each cell there will be some leakage. You would need separate reservoirs etc. I admit that it is small and that is why I asked the question. I insulated my holes two years ago but not with Weldon. I use a dental acrylic. I make a larger hole than is required and then I fill the whole hole and about a 1/16" more than the hole with the material. After it has dried, I drill the size of hole that is required, which is smaller than the original hole. This leaves an acrylic grommet. You have to grind this stuff off if you want to get it off. (It is hard like a tooth) As long as the surface is very clean it just will not come off. Not cheap though. Of course the electrolyte dose not touch it. I also insulate a spot opposite the hole on the next plate and a number of other things to make the current go where it should. There is current leakage but very very little. I can in my design totally isolate but am not sure there will be a significant difference in performance. I guess I am going to have to do it and find out what the real difference is. No one seams to have actually compared them and published any data. Keep up the good work. Carter

[BioFarmer93]

Carter, good morning..
Went and re-read my response to you- wasn't disagreeing in the least with you about the current leakage or insisting on the superior function of the design. Hell, it hasn’t even been built yet!
It seems your success with the acrylic and another forum member's success with the Weldon mirror each other for the same reason- the acrylic itself. The Weldon-13 (16?- been a while) is a slightly thickened solvent type adhesive for acrylics and polycarbonates, and obtains its body from dissolved acrylic. So, we are talking about very similar products from a chemical standpoint. It's wonderful that such serendipitous verification of techniques and results can occur here.
Occasionally topics can become contentious due to a typo, sometimes because of a quick mis-read, or easily bruised ego. Usually though, it’s because of “keyboard economy.” I probably hate typing more than most as I am not a touch typist, but I will take the time to flesh out an idea or explanation in text because if too much is left to the reader to interpret, oftentimes erroneous conclusions are arrived at concerning the author’s intent or frame of mind. On the other hand, if an explanation is too long or involved, it occasionally gives the reader the impression that the author was being too insistent about a point, even if he was only trying to be clear.
Since my last two ex-wives got what was left of my ego in the divorce settlements, that ego thing is hardly ever the case with me.

Ever since I found out about current leakage, there has been a slowly forming design floating around in the back of my mind.. It is more trouble to build than anything currently familiar to the HHO community and involves separate and cell specific reservoirs and ducts for electrolyte and gas. Would the output gains be enough to justify the added construction time/costs? Doubtful, especially in a motor vehicle application where normal vibration & wear and tear would challenge its higher fragility. In a stationary application though, who’s to say? Especially if Nickel200 was used rather than 316L ss.
-Gus

[BioFarmer93]

OK CNC, that was a little sneaky there bud... It seems I'm guilty of the very thing I was just telling Carter about- The "quick read" scenario. I saw the "A" in Voltameter and ASSumed it was a typo on your part. I COMPLETELY forgot (been 39 years since 7th. grade) that is what it was called. -Gus

[myoldyourgold]

Gus, I LIKE the design, and think it is great!! I wish I had your computer skills and the software to do what you are doing. This old dog finds it a lot harder to learn new tricks. I still learn, it just takes a hell of a lot longer!! Separation of the O and H2 in my tests has significant advantages mainly when you want to store it, not such an advantage in an IC engine. There is a lot of debate on the latter but usually people are not comparing apples to apples. I am interested in a heating system that uses solar, wind, H2 / O and diesel. I have a design that I would like to work on some day. Your design would work well in this case. You can store HHO even under pressure if you add enough air to it before it is stored under pressure. I think I would rather separate it, just less things to go wrong. With the proper safety devices it is as safe as a propane cylinder or 300 gallon tank of diesel siting in your basement. I will be interested in you test results when you get it built. I'll keep watching.

[kutuluh]

Hi, i know its been a long time since this post, but i was wondering, did this cell ever got built?
:)

[BioFarmer93]

No, it hasn't been built yet- however I have refined the design a bit to use the extra plates I have of a slightly different shape. The H output is going to be combined and stored with the Methane output of my digester. I'm still going to have to vent the O at atmospheric pressure to avoid contamination, but it's a small price to pay for the safety.