Is there a thread available for the science and theories of HHO?

[RustyLugNut]

I have not found a concise thread discussing the theories and science of HHO production and its effects on combustion. Have I missed it somewhere?

Thanks,
RustyLugNut

[Roland Jacques]

There many debates... you have to check about every 6 pages someone asks the same questions.
This ones was about 6 pages back along with another
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=5046

[Roland Jacques]

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=4947
another one

[RustyLugNut]

I had already used the "search" function to pick threads on HHO theory on the forums. However, they seemed disjointed and muddy. Opinion seemed just as viable as sound theory and fact.

I may simply be in the wrong forum. I have come from various Science Groups and Forums, but the topic of HHO is either misunderstood there or is hunted down as "witchcraft".

Have group members come to some theories and spent some time devising experiments to prove or disprove them and then restate the theory?

I am looking for a community that is not as rigid as some in academia or as loose as some of the "free energy" Yahoo groups.

On the surface, this group seems to be somewhere between. Am I correct in this assumption?

Your feedback, as well as those of others is welcomed.

Thanks in advance,
Rusty.

[dave5xe]

Hello Rusty, noticed your question so I have just this minute joined this forum to try to assist you in your quest for understanding the crazy world of HHO.

Please understand that the following imformation is from my own tests and is used by you at your own risk!

If you don,t mind I will call It Browns gas as so many claim that HHO is does not exist.

I will not bother to explain how it is done, or how to make one, there are plenty of threads for that so I will try to explain what It does instead.

Most engines waste up to 65% of the fuel that you pay so much money for, as they are not able to burn it all and just dump it as unburned fuel/pollution into the air that we all breath, or they get changed into CO2 in a converter that can make the total polution even worse.

Browns gas added to the engine air intake makes for a much hotter cleaner burn that reduces the unburned gases and makes better use of your fuel. The clean burn reduces the pollutants and is a very green thing to do, but as a trade off it does also make a small increase your CO2 output.
As a bonus, when Browns gas changes back into water/steam it washes the nasty deposits out of your engine and exhaust.

As this system makes better use of your fuel you will detect and instant improvement in the engines torque or push that will allow the use of higher gears without the expected judder. You will also notice a big reduction in the exhaust smoke at high revs and when cold starting. You may even show an improvement in your mpg but only if you are very lucky!

To get an improvement in your mpg you will need to reduce the amount of fuel that your engine is factory set to supply, you can now do this as you are now making better use of the fuel in the first place.
With a recent engine you will need to tweak the oxygen sensor so that it will not pump in extra fuel the minute it detects more oxygen in the exhaust gas, also re-mapping can help.
On older engines, leaning off the mixture or reducing the jet sizes can do the trick.

The trade off, electricity for gas is not as bad as we are told, the generator/alternator is making electric anyway and the amount of extra horse power/fuel that is required is very small.
If I swich on my headlights at tick-over I can hear the engine note change as the engines supplies the extra electricity, the same thing happens with the air conditioner but not with my browns gas generator.

I have been using home made Browns gas systems for a long time now and am content without going after the extra mpg, the extra torque and low pollution alone is a good enough reason me.

As the gas is not stored and is consumed the moment it is made it is a very safe system to use but other safety rules must also be followed.
Distilled water is the only way to avoid making unwanted gases like chlorine and using a safe electrolite like domestic baking powder for the same reasons.
An anti-flashback system is also needed and it should also not be possible for the device to be working when the engine is not running.

I hope that my explanation makes sense to you and I hope that you join the group of people that care more about clean air that they do about saving money.

Saving money by using less fuel is just an extra bonus!

Kind regards, David

[RustyLugNut]

Maybe we need to work in the question and answer format and, after some deliberation, pose theories to be tested. Once tested, the theories can be revisited and revised if needed, then these theories become principles upon which we build upon.

In perusing the threads the last couple of days, it seems the group already has several principles they build upon. By stating these principles and locking them in a sticky that is updated as more info flows in, we can concentrate our efforts more effectively.

I am not sure what the owners and admin of this group think, but the thrust of the group seems to be the practical application of on board hydrogen generation for mobile transport. Some threads for heating and energy storage seem to be somewhat active but the main thrust is transport.

My motivation for being on this forum versus others on the net, is the blend of both savvy gear heads and engineering types with a sprinkling of talented tinkerers gives this group a chance at truly producing an outstanding HHO technology that can be used on a wide array of applications. All that is needed is a focused effort. This forum has more focus than others. Can we step it up and concentrate our resources?

We could, if we were building from the same set of principles. That has to be the first step.

Discussion?

Thanks,
RustyLugNut

[dave5xe]

Er, thanks I think,
Regards David

[Roland Jacques]

I would slightly disagree with David on a point or two. Basically just my opinion on the subject. Maybe just clarifying

Modern Engines ICE dont have 65% unburnt fuel. Closer to 5-10% maybe. But 5- 10 % is more than we want.
I would agree that they are only at best 25-35% efficient, just that most of the energy is wasted in the form of heat. Can modding our fuel help these areas? I think so.

If we speed up the burn to concentrate the heat during an optimal geometry point, that can help also. as mentioned the ablity to lean out the fuel ratios, and minamize unburt fuel ...

I would add that some, (if not most in some cases) of the MPG benefits observed from some HHO boosting is accidentally had from the water vapor. This vapor comes from hot bubblers and hot steam in some generators that is inadvertently provided to the ICE.

[Helz_McFugly]

I would have to agree with the water vapor being the main reason for the gains in MPG's. Ive taken my HHO system off my car and left on the water vapor induction system i have setup. When I took the HHO off I lost about 1.5 to 2 MPGs but im still getting 25MPGs when 19MPGs was my base average.

[Philldpapill]

If you don,t mind I will call It Browns gas as so many claim that HHO is does not exist.


What? "Brown's Gas" and "HHO" are the same thing, just by different names... That's like saying you'd rather call light a nanometer electromagnetic wave, rather than photons because you don't believe photons exist... It's just a name, but understand that HHO and Brown's Gas are the same thing. To deny the existance of one, is to deny the existance of the other...

Anyway, back on topic... I agree with Roland and Helz on some of this. It seems that water vapor DOES indeed have a pretty profound effect on how the combustion energy is converted into mechanical work. I'm sure HHO has an effect as well, but it seems conclusive that water vapor is a large contributor, as well.

[dave5xe]

There is truth in all the above, I also agree that HHO and Browns gas are the same thing but the members on the Wild about Britain forum gave me so much stick about the name HHO that I have tried to avoid that conflict by calling it Browns gas on this forum.
One of the classic Bentleys had a nebuliser that sprayed a mist of water under the bonnet to increase its power output when racing and we all know that cars go faster on a damp day, so water is beyond doubt a benefit.
It has also been shown that the old water in a HHO bubbler jar is still potent without the generator being used, but it is claimed that it has been altered in some way that makes it better than normal water?
Another study has shown that the hotter cleaner burn created when using HHO somehow reduces the engines heat and therefore the energy that is normaly lost by heat?
Anyway, the point is that we all reduce pollutants, enjoy better performance and save money, none of that can be a bad thing,
Kind regards to you all,
David

[Helz_McFugly]

well I did a test the other day and it made me think about the hows and whys and whats. I have an old 83 toyota p/u with a small 2sh liter engine and has 200k miles on it and it runs kinda rough. I pulled it up to my HHO bench gen set and cranked it up to 30 amps and it was making around 2LPM and when I stuck it in the air intake the engine would rev up from 500 to 650 and start running very smoothly, no spuddering or shaking like it normally does. So I then put my finger over the end of the hose for about 10 seconds so it sould build up some pressure, then release it in the intake and it would rev up to almost 800 rpms then back down to 650 and smooth. that pretty much concluded to me that the hydrogen was making a stronger burn in the combustion chamber and had very little to do with water in that test. it was simply replacing the air going in with combustable H2 causing it to rev higher and run smoother. If only I could get an onboard 20LPM HHO system on this truck without to much draw on the engines torque and be able to cut back the fuel and advance the timing a bit closer to TDC.

[dave5xe]

Hello Helz, 2LPM is a pretty amazing output, I have never managed that even on my bench.
I only use around 1/4 to 1/3 LPM at 10 to 15amps in my car and 1/2 to 3/4 LPM at 20 to 25 amps in my van.
Your dramatic increase in revs not only proves that you have a stronger burn, (In my opinion largely due to the Oxygen content and the flash steam in the explosion) but that you also have an alternative fuel in the form of Hydrogen.

I have never tried for the extra MPG, the clean exhaust, extra Torque and around 5% extra miles per gallon that I get from my simple HHO generators have always been good enough for me.
I do keep my engines tuned for economy and I also keep my tyre pressures correct but to be honest Helz I have never believed that HHO as it is now, is an alternative fuel.
I know that I should be burned at the stake for saying that but it is what I believe.

HHO is very green and we all need clean air, extra torque is great at low revs and a small gain on MPG is enough to make me a HHO fan.

Building a complex and expensive, high powered HHO system and then working on all engine and electronic tweaks to gain more MPG can be done but it is not for me at this time.

Maybe Urea development may change all that in the future but as it is now, a low price, simple DIY installation that gives such huge advantages is just great.

I hope that you are not to upset by opinions, I do know from reading your quotes that you are a true expert in this field,
Kind regards,
David

[Helz_McFugly]

no I agree. It is expensive to try and get gains in mileage on these smart cars and even more so if you want to try and replace gasoline with hydrogen. and building a gen set that produces a high volume of gas is not cheap. It really all depends on your intentions. alt fuel = extremely expensive, mileage gains = still pricey, or like yourself, go green and get a small boost in torque and very little if any gains in mileage = affordable. I have given up on trying to get and mileage gains on my 3.5 liter 08 Charger because of how smart that car is but I am going to try it on my small 2.2 liter computerless p/u. Im going more twards water vapor induction on the charger. I may put a HHO gen set back on it after I/we figure out a more efficient way of producing hydrogen.

[dave5xe]

Thank you Helz, It is nice to get a sensible and polite reply to a question posted on a HHO forum.
I wish you luck with your 2.2 liter project, I like your idea of moving nearer to TDC but keep an eye on the engine temperature as it can make it hotter and listen for pinking, the same applys to leaning off the mixture.
Playing around with the drive wheels and tire sizes can also make a huge difference to fuel consumption, a narrow tire offers much less friction and a larger wheel makes the car travel extra distance on each rotation.
My 47 year old Ford pictures are on the following site if you would like a look, I think that there are a couple of pictures with the HHO set-up,
Kind regards,
David www.cardomain.com/ride/3217515/3