Engine internal corrosion?

[350matt]

Wotcha

Having been tinkering with my installation I opened up the intake of my engien and found a lot of white deposit on the inside of the intake pipes.

I'm assuming that this is KOH dropped out of suspension?

I don't run any sort of filter post bubbler tank and I've recently changed the configuration of my cell ( as per Helz's reccommendation) so I'm getting a lot less flow ( was 1.5lpm now 0.3 ish) but hopefully no steam / water vapour now, just HHO.

I gave things a bit of a clean out and I'm considering fitting a simple little paper fuel filter type between the engine and tank to catch any KOH particles should this now be required now I'm not trying to steam clean my engine?

[redrat100]

...I opened up the intake of my engien and found a lot of white deposit on the inside of the intake pipes...

Assuming that this is an aluminum intake: The white deposits you are seeing is aluminum corrosion. KOH is basic and attacks aluminum with a vengence. It will eat aluminum. A filter may help some. You need to neutralize the HHO/water vapor coming out of you electrolyzer by adding some vinegar (acetic acid) to your bubbler. Use litmus paper to measure the ph of the HHO out of the bubbler. It needs to be as close to neutral ph as possible. Too acidic is also bad. Also, the hose going into the bubbler needs to have a plastic aquarium filter stone to break up the bubbles into smaller sizes. Smaller bubbles allow more KOh to be neutralized.

[Helz_McFugly]

totally agree with ya rat. The litmus test will tell you alot. Im guessing the white youre seeing in there is from the e-lyte in the steam from the way you had your plates configured before. that stuff is brutal on aluminum. I almost made a cell that used aluminum plates covering the SS N plates once as a test. the reaction of the aluminum caroding in the electrolizer actually makes hydrogen but its crazy so I may mess with it some day. anywho,
matt with your e-lyzer setup like it is, it should pull 13.8vdc/30amps at its max and be getting around 2LPM at that current. And thats at a modest 4.96MMW
somethings not right. whats the current its pulling? Its probably a simple fix. youve got it setup perfect as far as your e-lyzer, it could be as simple as the placement of the e-lyte reservoir or the e-lyte mixture or the setting on your PWM if youre using one.

[350matt]

Thanks for the advice guys, currently the bubbler and elyte tank are one and the same, the bottom feed of the tank runs down to the bottom of the cell and the gas / top outlet of the cell returns to the top of the tank.

The gas exit pipe is also on the top of the tank and this is then run to the engine.

I was going to add an extension pipe to the gas return fitting so that its pumping under the water-line not just into the tank headspace as currently.
This should make it a better 'bubbler'

I'm presuming I'd be best off adding a 2nd volume filled with water and vinegar to De-acid my KOH ouput?

I'm also getting about 0.2lpm on my gas flow meter not 2lpm and perhaps unsurprisingly not getting much benefit. This is pulling about 25Amps through my PWM.
I've recently added a 2nd feed to the vacuum side of the engine and I think this has helped slightly but not a huge amount.

I was planning to completely drain and re-fill the system with a definite 28% KOH water mix this w'end

Any suggestions welcome

[Roland Jacques]

Do you have a link to the details of your cell? I know you have mentioned it but... How hot is your cell getting? Your decrease in productions could be a short or ... What are your plates made out of?

Bad new KOH eats up aluminum. Good news KOH + Aluminum makes a lot of H2:rolleyes: Add that Bubblier ASAP

[Helz_McFugly]

:eek: no bubbler? yea, most important thing would be to put a clean water bubbler on there. I would take it OFF the vacuum and input into the air intake hose as close to the throttle body as you can, and without letting the gas flow over the MAF. Going into a vacuum line makes it work in reverse of how you want it to. you pull high vacuum at idle and next to none when accelerating. what type of flow gauge are you using. If its not for HHO then its not accurate. I have one thats for "medical air" and when Im making 1.5LPM it says im making 3LPM.


I've recently added a 2nd feed to the vacuum side of the engine and I think this has helped slightly but not a huge amount.
negitive pressure has no affect on the volume of HHO your sytem makes.


I'm also getting about 0.2lpm on my gas flow meter
Ive never seen a flow meter that has low graduations like that on it, can you post a pic? hell post of pic of everything. somethings wrong.

[redrat100]

Thanks for the advice guys, currently the bubbler and elyte tank are one and the same, the bottom feed of the tank runs down to the bottom of the cell and the gas / top outlet of the cell returns to the top of the tank.

The gas exit pipe is also on the top of the tank and this is then run to the engine.

I was going to add an extension pipe to the gas return fitting so that its pumping under the water-line not just into the tank headspace as currently.
This should make it a better 'bubbler'

I'm presuming I'd be best off adding a 2nd volume filled with water and vinegar to De-acid my KOH ouput?

Yup, the reservoir and bubbler need to be two separate units. The plumbing looks something like this: electrolyte feed hose from the bottom of the reservoir to the cell, HHO gas/residual electrolyte output from cell back to the reservoir, HHo gas feed from the top of the reservoir to the bottom of the bubbler/neutralizer with vinegar (I also put in a condenser coil per Painless' sketch), HHo gas, scrubbed and cooled, from the bubbler to a fitting between the throttle body and MAF.



I'm also getting about 0.2lpm on my gas flow meter not 2lpm and perhaps unsurprisingly not getting much benefit. This is pulling about 25Amps through my PWM.
I've recently added a 2nd feed to the vacuum side of the engine and I think this has helped slightly but not a huge amount.

.2 LPM, 25 amps, 12 volts? Yikes! You must be using a wet cell. I started that way also and soon discovered that a dry cell is orders of magnitude more efficient. I would guess that your cell starts to overheat and boil in twenty minutes or so. It sounds like you have built an efficient tea kettle but a very inefficient electrolyzer.

[Helz_McFugly]

here is the link to the thread where we worked on his e-lyzer plate config
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=5936
Its a dry cell

[350matt]

Right you are gents,

I'll add a bubbler reservoir asap, the thing is with the 2nd vacuum line I've restricted right down to about a 0.7mm diameter hole to prevent it sucking the tank flat and I've kept the main line as well (ported to just before the throttle) so I was thinking that this should be a little bit self regulating.

As the manifold vacuum drops with throttle opening, the main inlet vacuum will pick up and so keep sucking HHO in.
The car definitely runs better at low to mid throttle openings like this.
But by the sound of it if I had a decent level of HHO then the std way of porting it would work without the vacuum inlet.

I'll add the bubbler and re-do the KOH mix and see what I get.

Oh the flow meter I'm using is a TIG welder one meant for Argon this should be reasonably close to real HHO flow as argon density is 1.784 g/ltr and oxygen is 1.308 g/ltr and hydrogen 0.089 (HHO=1.486) so if its reading 1 ltr/min on teh argon scale in reality its 1.17ltrs/min of HHO

Also the cell is running at about 25°C and the e-lyte at around 33°C and yes as Helz says its a 'dry' 21 plate cell which I bought from this place:

http://stores.shop.ebay.co.uk/HydroGas-Labs__W0QQ_armrsZ1

[350matt]

Wotcha

Images as requested

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r213/ch1ch1_photos/DSCF1085.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r213/ch1ch1_photos/DSCF1086.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r213/ch1ch1_photos/DSCF1087.jpg

[Helz_McFugly]

well nothing stands out as to why its not producing. if its pulling that many amps it should be pumping away. maybe a leak in the res.? if you open the res. up, is it pumping the e-lytes back in there pretty fast? how much KOH do you have in there again?

[redrat100]

Dry cell, thanks Helz, good info in the thread.

The pictures help a lot Matt, good job. Nothing looks odd about the cell. I suspect you may be having a bad case of vapor lock. With gravity/convection set ups like yours it is difficult to keep the cell full of electrolyte because of the internal pressures and temperatures. Some people have good luck with this method, most don't. One of my dry cells also had this problem, high current draw with low output. I first had to prime the cell with electrolyte, or water to get all of the air out of it. That worked for a little while until the internal pressure prevented the cell from refilling. (even with a check valve between the cell and reservoir). The solution that worked was putting a pump in between the cell and reservoir. I use a Jabsco 42510-0000 pump with no ill effects. 12v, 1.6a designed for boat galley faucets and cheaper than the Shur-flo. Available from West Marine. I tried a generic windshield washer pump. It worked well for about 45 minutes then it smoked. Whatever pump you get, it must be rated for continuous duty.

That is my suggestion to you: use a pump.

[350matt]

hello gents

If you open the cap of the e-lyte tank whilst the cell is on then yes you do get a regular sputtering of gas and fluid back into the tank.

When I first fitted the tank I did have trouble priming the cell but I raised the tank a bit and fitted a larger bore feed hose and fittings and it then self fills OK - admittedly this is when its off when its running the gas displaces some the e-lyte so its uncovering about a 3rd of the plate area.

I'll look into the pump option as its sounds like it might help.

I'm currently unsure how much KOH I'm running ( suspect about 20% tops) so I've bought some more and will do a complete flush with fresh water and 28% mix by weight at the weekend along with fitting a bubbler.

Cheers for the advice chaps I'll keep you posted