LPM guide for engine size

[phileh]

Hi all hydro explorers:
I've been reading with great interest many of your posts and I think you have a forum that has lots of great information and discussions.
As a newbie I'm just changing from a wet cell (wrapped in shrink wrap) to the dry cell type. I purchased an 11 plate 3 1/2" square cell -NNNN+NNNN- but I can't get over 1LPM and that's at 18+ amps (I'm still bench testing). The mfg. of the cell claimed it was big enough for a 4 Liter engine but I am really starting to doubt it. :rolleyes: Can someone tell me what a 3.9 liter engine needs for LPM output to run its best. I've read the .5 LPM output per Liter of engine size but the salesman claims this is just sales hype. What do you think ? After reading some of your results I think I should have gone for the 6" square size instead.

Helz, I'll be interested to see your take on the Volo FS2, if it really works as hyped it would be much simpler than EFIE and MAP enhancers. I hope, I hope.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions.

[Helz_McFugly]

your 11 plate e-eyzer should have been a 13 plate -NNNNN+NNNNN-. that way you get around 2vdc per cell and that rises your MMW (yours is 4.02 and thats not to good) which inturn raises your e-lyzers abillity to give you more gains by drawing less amps off your alternator which has less draw on your engine and draining HP. The Zolo FS2 works. Im jsut not sure how good it works. Im getting gains but I can explain what it does exactly bacuse they wont tell me. I am going to use a efie along side the FS2 to see if I can get more gains.

[phileh]

Thanks for the reply Helz Mcfugly

I have two more plates I had ordered to reduce the volts but when I added them I had to add several more ounces of KOH so I thought I was mistaken to add the extra plates. However, I had also been messing with anti-foam agents so I may have contaminated my electrolyte, so I will add the 2 plates back in and start with a fresh batch of electro.

Thanks again

[Helz_McFugly]

yes you will have to increase you e-lyte mixture when you add more N plates to increase conductivity. you can add up to 6 N's but I would only go with 5 untill you get a PWM and get more comfortable and knowledgeable with HHO systems. I think 28% KOH is the max, but with that you can have 6 N's but you HAVE to have a PWM to control the current.

BTW, hottub defoamer is what i hear alot of people are using. Ide research that a bit more though just to be safe. you can search this forum for "foam".

Hope that helps, good luck.
Helz

[Buster]

To be honest I think that the engine size is probably not a good gauge for recommended lpm. There are more variables that likely have a greater effect.....fuel usage per minute (standard MPG is an indicator) and engine efficiency as well as alternator efficiency.
I believe that trial and error is probably the only way to find out what the best level is. A PWM amp controller is very handy for this task. Try starting off drawing a certain ampage and see what your results are over several similar trips. Then adjust the amps up and test again. etc. etc.

I would simply install your cell as is and see how it actually does in practice instead of playing with it on the bench!! Be an HHO hero and take the plunge. It might actually work! It might even already be at your vehicle's ideal lpm for all you know.
lol

[phileh]

Buster, you have a good point there, I never really thought about why they say you need more hydro for a larger engine but really what you are treating is the amount of gasoline you are burning. That would mean mpg would be a better guide than engine size. Volume of air would be in the mix also but a little harder to figure. Somehow we need a guide that would say if you are getting 'x' mpg stock and 'x' CFM of air you need 'x' LPM hydro for max efficiency. That is probably why they work with air/fuel ratio but the average person doesn't have the tools to monitor whether you are at 14:1 or whatever. I'm rambling here so I'll shut up but leave with on last question, have you ever seen a chart that lists - MPG - CFM & best LPM to make it burn efficient ?

You suggested I just install the dry cell and see how it runs, the reason I'm still bench testing is I have a working wet cell in my truck and I want to see what the max LPM I can tweak out of this dry cell before swapping. It is much easier on the bench than in the cramped engine compartment.

Thanks for your input.

[mytoyotasucks]

On a cell u can get better production, by gasket thickness, and how the plates are preped.

And I found another way to determine if an engine will get good MPG gain or just wasting time, and i figured it out after testing on over 10 vehicles.

[phileh]

mytoyotasucks

I have tried different gasket thickness from .060 to .090 to try and get rid if some foaming/surging but it didn't make much difference. (cleaning and conditioning the plates helped) I've seen plate spacing recommendations all over the charts so I'm not convinced on what works the best. Eventually I'll run across it but if you have found a good gap please share it, it would save me much time and $$ testing.
It took much less KOH on the wet cell but heat was always a problem. I'm running at up to 20% KOH now on the dry cell -NNNNN+NNNNN- but only 15A getting 850ml per min. NOT good enough yet. I've got a PWM attached but the amps are so low, even at 100%, that I keep it maxed. (that might be where I need to try smaller plate spacing to get the amps up ? )

Thanks for any suggestions

[mytoyotasucks]

15A and 850ml - somethings wrong.
U said u use KOH but what water - i use Purified Water.

And for prep u need to use semi corse sandpaper to score the metal (not to deep) in a 90 degree config.

And ur right the gap needs to be played with.
And i dont use SS anymore, tried another metal and it works better, but more expensive.

[Buster]

Buster, you have a good point there, I never really thought about why they say you need more hydro for a larger engine but really what you are treating is the amount of gasoline you are burning. That would mean mpg would be a better guide than engine size. Volume of air would be in the mix also but a little harder to figure. Somehow we need a guide that would say if you are getting 'x' mpg stock and 'x' CFM of air you need 'x' LPM hydro for max efficiency. That is probably why they work with air/fuel ratio but the average person doesn't have the tools to monitor whether you are at 14:1 or whatever. I'm rambling here so I'll shut up but leave with on last question, have you ever seen a chart that lists - MPG - CFM & best LPM to make it burn efficient ?

You suggested I just install the dry cell and see how it runs, the reason I'm still bench testing is I have a working wet cell in my truck and I want to see what the max LPM I can tweak out of this dry cell before swapping. It is much easier on the bench than in the cramped engine compartment.

Thanks for your input.

Exactly....starting MPG could well be more relevant than engine size. I haven't seen any charts regarding this, and I think there are too many variables to be able to rely on any fixed values anyway. Testing is probably the only reliable way.

BTW, a cell will usually perform very differently when installed in the vehicle as opposed to on the bench.....as the slightly higher DC voltage in the car will have a big impact on the output, similar to having a different plate configuration.

[Buster]

And I found another way to determine if an engine will get good MPG gain or just wasting time, and i figured it out after testing on over 10 vehicles.

That sounds very interesting. What method do you use?

[mytoyotasucks]

That sounds very interesting. What method do you use?

There are so many diff engines out there that i found that lower compression engines dont get a good MPG gain with HHO.

I had 2 caddy's one with 8.9 compression ratio(CR), the other a little newer 9.6 CR and it got good gains.

Audi 5 cylinder low CR and almost no gains.

My saturn High CR and see awsome gains.

And i used the same system on both caddy's.


And as for the metal i use titanium - buy used mufflers off ebay cut them flatten them, clean them, and then prep and find better production and can use more plates in the cell, I use 23 plates in a 3 cell instead of 19,and 6"x5".

[Buster]

Very interesting.
Do you think this would apply to diesel engines benefiting more from HHO than petrol engines?

The Suzuki's got 9.5:1 and has had incredible results, so it seems to follow.

I've just installed on a Landrover with CR of 21:1 and am awaiting results.

[mytoyotasucks]

Very interesting.
Do you think this would apply to diesel engines benefiting more from HHO than petrol engines?

The Suzuki's got 9.5:1 and has had incredible results, so it seems to follow.

I've just installed on a Landrover with CR of 21:1 and am awaiting results.

My Brother has a 2003 chevy truck with a diesel and without and electronics other than a programer set to economy, and he gained 10 MPG with a 4LMP cell.

And he said it was like it was programed for performance but great MPG.

[350matt]

I've been thinking about the level of gas required too, my feeling is that its no good quoting LPM for engine size as what's important. It should be based on power output as that more representative of air consumption.

as surely with HHO you need a certain percentage mix with the air /petrol to achieve the result we're after.
Ideally we shouldn't be just chucking the HHO in straight off the top of the cell but rather using a gas injector that adds gas in proportion to mass airflow or injector duty cycle. that way you'd have the HHO stored under slight pressure in the tank and a regulated supply to the injector so you could fully control it.

your thoughts chaps?

[hybridHHO]

Hi Matt!
If you have OBC you can see liters per hour par example 1 lt/hr at iddle.
Then connect HHO and can play with %electrolyte,amperage, efie, mafe, and look for 0.9 - 0.8-0.7-0.6-0.5 is fantastic and the car mantain the rpms.
I think is the best test point for starting, obviously running will be different but now i'm in this way.

[Helz_McFugly]

I've been thinking about the level of gas required too, my feeling is that its no good quoting LPM for engine size as what's important. It should be based on power output as that more representative of air consumption.

as surely with HHO you need a certain percentage mix with the air /petrol to achieve the result we're after.
Ideally we shouldn't be just chucking the HHO in straight off the top of the cell but rather using a gas injector that adds gas in proportion to mass airflow or injector duty cycle. that way you'd have the HHO stored under slight pressure in the tank and a regulated supply to the injector so you could fully control it.

your thoughts chaps?

Matt what you are talking about would be a EFI for HHO. you are talking about keeping the HHO/air ratio the same as the RPMs of your engine change. storing HHO is very dangerious as its a gas that has its own oxidizer and that kind fo gas is uber bad for storing. the only thing that would be safe is to control the current so it produces more at higher RPMs but then you have the problem of lag.