The New and Improved Hexavalent Chromium Scam [Archive]

IM2L844

10-08-2009, 02:12 PM

I have been researching this for about a year, but now that Smack is throwing the entire HHO community under the bus for using stainless steel, I think people need to know the truth.

There are NO verifiable scientific studies, white papers or any data whatsoever, that I can find, that supports the notion that hexavalent chromium leeches out of the stainless steel plates and into the used electrolyte during electrolysis. NONE! ANYWHERE!

I am issuing a public challenge to anyone and everyone to find it. If it does exist I certainly want to know about it.

I believe the closest anyone will get is data dealing with the process of chrome plating. Other than that I haven't been able to find anything at all that has to do with hexavalent chromium and the electrolysis of water.

Helz_McFugly

10-08-2009, 02:17 PM

Its there because he says its there fool, you better recognize
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IM2L844

10-08-2009, 02:34 PM

I guess that settles it then.

Honestly, I don't think Dustin is being intentionally disingenuous about the hexavalent chromium thing. I think his personal presuppositions have skewed his ability to investigate without bias. If he is the man he says he is, he will eventually come around and either provide the scientific data or he will admit I am right!

Helz_McFugly

10-08-2009, 11:18 PM

OK I left smack a comment on that video I posted where he was going off about everything being open source, it is what it is cuz I say so, everything will always be open source, and blah blah, Ill never sell out. well you saw it. well the comment said. "Is there any proof, other then the company you sold out to, that SS creates hexavalent chromium in e-lytes?" Im not sure those were my exact word but thats pretty close because right after I left it, HE REMOVED THE VIDEO!!! and sent me a message saying, "yes there is plenty of proof, just google it." :confused:
so I did:

now if youre huffing your HHO output read this.
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/hexavalentchromium/recognition.html

and thats all I got:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/109611814/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

So you better use smacks new stuff "cuz he said so".
Pretty much what happen is Smack has become the Vanilla Ice of the HHO community.

Helz_McFugly

10-09-2009, 10:23 AM

I see your comments on his safehho vid. I just left one.

I looked it up on google like you said and found nothing about electrolosys with SS creates CH. it does happen when cutting or welding SS and there are health riskes after years or exposure, but nothing on electrolosys with SS. It sounds to me like you sold out and just tossed the SS HHO community to the dogs because safehho made you a good offer.
Im sure it was something like this. "Tell all your customers your product, and everyone elses products who use SS, is unsafe so they will buy ours, and we will give you $" I cant say I wouldnt have done the same thing but I would have done it differently. They have tought you good marketing skills.

hhoconnection

10-09-2009, 11:12 AM

Watch this video and see if your opinion changes:

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IM2L844

10-09-2009, 12:08 PM

Let's be clear about what my opinion is. It is my opinion the there is no verifiable conclusive scientific data to be found anywhere that shows hexavalent chromium can leech out of stainless steel plates during the electrolysis of water with caustic electrolytes. NONE.

As for the video, there are a whole bunch of unknown variables. We know that stainless steel dust from sanding etc., will contain hexavalent chromium. How well were the plates cleaned before he dumped this used electrolyte into the bucket or was this electrolyte from a cleaning and conditioning process that would, naturally, contain some stainless steel dust. Also, I'm not sure about the color comparison he made. It wasn't that clear to me. That color seemed to be much more pink than anything on the comparator. In any event, since that video really doesn't constitute verifiable conclusive scientific evidence of any kind, it doesn't change my original opinion or position at all.

hhoconnection

10-09-2009, 02:16 PM

Here is a video from ZeroFossilFuel where he addresses the Hexavalent Chromium problem:

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So now is Zero a scammer too? It is a bummer that this is a side effect of using stainless and I have no reason to doubt these guys. If you really want to see for yourself, why don't you buy a Hexavalent Chromium test kit and try it out.

I have to say, the tone of many posts on this forum are very combative and cynical. I don't have a problem with being skeptical of something, but like on too many other public forums there are many people who just cannot seem to post their thoughts without sounding angry and combative. I know now why the EBN guys started their own private forum where they can share ideas without being called names or having their integrity questioned. I feel fortunate to have access to this wonderful resource. There are a few really knowledgeable HHO experts out there who won't come near this forum because they don't want to have to deal with hateful attitudes. This forum is missing out on a lot of good discussion because of this.

Buster

10-09-2009, 03:24 PM

I think the fact that this contaminant is produced at all, whether during conditioning or general running is the most important factor. We must be responsible with this stuff.

...and yes, there is a lot of emotional and biased discussion on this forum, which I personally don't always like the tone of, but sometimes disagreement is useful and the observer can usually see through it to the important points if they're level headed enough.

Thanks for the videos BTW, it will make me extra careful with how I dispose of this waste. Am thinking of evaporating it down to just residue to keep it really compact & containable and reduce the number of trips to the waste disposal site.

Helz_McFugly

10-09-2009, 03:40 PM

I already treat my e-lytes as if it were aids infected blood because I dont lke chem. burns. but I had been poring the old stuff on ant hills so I guess Ill stop that. so just to be safe Ill now treat it as if there is Hexavalent Chromium in it, even if it doesnt, and despose of it propperly untill i see proof that there is none in it. As far as buying that $500 3 plate e-lyzer that safehho cells. not going to happen. they claim 30% to 60% savings. well Smack has already stated he cant get more then 16% except on his motercycle.
Its not hard to see why hes doing what hes doing. Im pretty sure we would all do the same if confronted with the offer. A company that makes a very expensive e-lyzer is capitalizing on this non Hexavalent Chromium design. They brought smack on board because he sells alot of product, which explains his trade in rebate, and they want his customer base.
I still dont see why the HHO gas from one of these safehho e-lyzers is any different then that of a SS e-lyzer. how could you NOT have to use some form of an efie? is it magic?

biggy boy

10-09-2009, 03:52 PM

The Hach reagent (the test kit in the video) is intended to be used with a "Water sample". Not a solution of a caustic in water!! Are there any instructions provided with the test kit that may indicate of the possible interferences, when we use that kit, with solutions other than water? IE:NaoH or KOH in water!! Water is not a solution on it's own!

Note that the color did not match any of the reference colors.
The caustic in the water is causing interference with the test colors.
These test kits are specific to the sample medium

Buster

10-09-2009, 04:22 PM

I suspect that the main reason for their MPG gains over Smacks systems is due to drawing the right amount of amps. I believe that the same results can be achieved from a carefully balanced SS electrolyser. I think the chromium issue just needs to be handled carefully. The high price of these special plates will have to come down dramatically before the HHO community will be willing to switch from SS.

Helz_McFugly

10-09-2009, 04:29 PM

buster, just go to www.safehho.com and at the bottom, click "become a dealer" :p
make it your side project.

hhonewbie

10-09-2009, 04:33 PM

Too much fuss about nothing. The air we breath and every breath we take is poisinous. What are we to do "stop breathing". Its not as if where sticking our mouths over the exhaust. Use what ever you can afford, theres nothing wrong with using SS. If there so worried about Hex Chromium and any other poisin then theres only one other alternative "go all electric"

Roland Jacques

10-09-2009, 04:36 PM

I have to say, the tone of many posts on this forum are very combative and cynical. I don't have a problem with being skeptical of something, but like on too many other public forums there are many people who just cannot seem to post their thoughts without sounding angry and combative. I know now why the EBN guys started their own private forum where they can share ideas without being called names or having their integrity questioned. I feel fortunate to have access to this wonderful resource. There are a few really knowledgeable HHO experts out there who won't come near this forum because they don't want to have to deal with hateful attitudes. This forum is missing out on a lot of good discussion because of this.

Why did you attach this junk to your post?
Sorry, i dont get it. Nobody is combative, angry, or questioning anyone integrity on this thread.
I take that back, your post has made me a little angry. But no big deal.
I could take it as constructive criticism BUT you go into some childish junk on how a "my private forum is better than your forum" stuff. Really?

Buster

10-09-2009, 05:52 PM

buster, just go to www.safehho.com and at the bottom, click "become a dealer" :p
make it your side project.

I don't think so sonny Jim!:p

Don't get me wrong, I think they've got some merit, just price is a bit steep and too restrictive with the business plan for most people. If they made their plates available for purchase I might consider them if they really are that good, though.- It might well be a better material. I expect Smack genuinely believes they are better. I don't think he's sold out, as personally I don't think he's a bad guy, as some seem to think.

Roland: Sorry, i dont get it. Nobody is combative, angry, or questioning anyone integrity on this thread.

....BTW, has anyone heard from Richard lately?? Lol

hhoconnection

10-09-2009, 06:17 PM

Why did you attach this junk to your post?
Sorry, i dont get it. Nobody is combative, angry, or questioning anyone integrity on this thread.

I'm sure Smack would disagree with you. Go ahead and get mad at me...shoot the messenger!

I could take it as constructive criticism BUT you go into some childish junk on how a "my private forum is better than your forum" stuff.

Thanks for proving my point.

Helz_McFugly

10-09-2009, 06:24 PM

I don't think so sonny Jim!:p

Don't get me wrong, I think they've got some merit, just price is a bit steep and too restrictive with the business plan for most people. If they made their plates available for purchase I might consider them if they really are that good, though.- It might well be a better material. I expect Smack genuinely believes they are better. I don't think he's sold out, as personally I don't think he's a bad guy, as some seem to think.

Roland: Sorry, i dont get it. Nobody is combative, angry, or questioning anyone integrity on this thread.

....BTW, has anyone heard from Richard lately?? Lol

well you have to have a top end product for those who HAVE to have the best product, so they can say theres is better then everyone elses dont ya? :p

No, Smack isnt a bad guy, hes a bit douchey sometimes with his "cuz I say so fool", hes done some cool stuff for the HHO community and builds some good stuff off Bobs designs. And I know he thinks hes doing the right thing. But I know $ was a factor. As it would be for any of us. If the $ was right. I would have done the same thing. but I would be showing proof, not claiming it.

Buster

10-09-2009, 06:49 PM

Just thinking, has anyone else tried using titanium plates? Do they have to be coated or can they just be used exactly like we would use SS??

I see titanium plate advertised and it's not too expensive.

Roland Jacques

10-09-2009, 07:06 PM

I'm sure Smack would disagree with you. Go ahead and get mad at me...shoot the messenger!

Not shooting the messenger, Criticism is fine.
It's the boasting about your private forum & putting down the open forum part, (Non constructive part) that I could have done without.

Roland Jacques

10-09-2009, 07:12 PM

Roland: Sorry, i dont get it. Nobody is combative, angry, or questioning anyone integrity on this thread.

....BTW, has anyone heard from Richard lately?? Lol

Yep, I was thinking the same thing.

That thread was much more realative to HHO Connection's post then this one.

hhoconnection

10-09-2009, 07:40 PM

Not shooting the messenger, Criticism is fine.
It's the boasting about your private forum & putting down the open forum part, (Non constructive part) that I could have done without.

I was not trying to say that "my forum is better than your forum", hell it's not even my forum. I am simply relaying what was said to me by a few of the heavyweights in the HHO community when I asked them why they don't go on public forums. When words like "scammer" are being thrown around some people are going to take offense and go away and that is a shame. It's hard enough dealing with the neysayers of HHO but to be called names by the others in the HHO community is really frustrating. I'm sorry if I offended you with my comments, that was not my intention.

Helz_McFugly

10-09-2009, 08:52 PM

whats a private forum? invite only? whats an EBN guy? Environmental Building News?

Is http://hhoinfo.ning.com a private forum?

redrat100

10-09-2009, 11:20 PM

Just thinking, has anyone else tried using titanium plates? Do they have to be coated or can they just be used exactly like we would use SS??

I am. Once I find the time, that is. I heard about the Cr+6 issue a while ago from a few different sources and decided then to find an alternative plate material. Enough people were making noise about it I figured that there was some truth to it. I am sill cutting plates and gaskets. I'm not going to cross sand them but will solvent clean and acid etch them. No nano coating, to much $$$. Eventually I will start another thread to post my results.

IM2L844

10-10-2009, 09:07 AM

I have not been angry or combative. If anyone thinks that I have, they are reading something into my posts that simply isn't there. I am not emotionally or financially invested one way or the other. I don't know if used electrolyte contains hexavalent chromium or not. Of course I think everyone should err on the side of caution and proceed as if it does. That only makes good common sense, but all that is totally beside the point.

The fact is there are a lot of good, hardworking, honest builders out there selling quality stainless steel products at reasonable prices. Here comes the point. Pay attention. All those good, hardworking and honest guys don't need some megalomaniac with a dog in the fight throwing them under the bus by repeatedly and contiuously perpetuating, as an undeniable fact, what amounts to nothing more than pure conjecture and speculation. I don't care how you look at it, in the absence of ANY documented scientific data to support the assertion, an educated guess is still nothing more than a guess no matter how loud and how many times one keeps screaming it's a well known fact.

jerrygoldsmith

10-10-2009, 02:11 PM

Not all SS contains Chromium though does it? I know its a ****tail of alloys, but I thought the higher grades contained mostly nickel and no chromium in the mix.

IM2L844

10-10-2009, 05:04 PM

I think it does, but, here, let me google that for you. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=stainless+steel)

hhoconnection

10-10-2009, 06:08 PM

You know I got to thinking about it and what about electro-polishing the stainless steel plates. Spodie has been doing this for a while and I'm pretty sure that if the plates are electro-polished all the impurities and anything else that could leech out is taken out during the process. I know that Spodie says his water never gets dirty and he never has to change it. Not only that but he claims that he can get the same amount of gas with less amps after electro-polishing. Here is a link to the company he uses: http://all-bright.com/

redrat100

10-10-2009, 06:12 PM

Not all SS contains Chromium though does it? I know its a ****tail of alloys, but I thought the higher grades contained mostly nickel and no chromium in the mix.

I don't know about all SS alloys. But since most of us are or have used alloy 316, let's focus on that. Here is a data sheet. http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_products/stainless/austenitic/316_316L_Data_Sheet.pdf The Chromium constituent is 16% to 18%.

We use electrolysis to produce HHO. The plating industry also uses electrolysis. When they "anodize" an aluminum part, material is removed from the cathode and deposited onto the anode. Some of the material removed from the cathode will stay in the solution.

So, in making HHO, some of the material from our negative plates (cathodes) is deposited onto our positive plates (anodes). But, some of the material stays in solution, including some chromium. If I was a chemist I would write a balanced equation here to show it.

The debate here is this: Is the chromium that is left in solution truly Cr+6 or not. It seems that the test kit shown in post #6 shows this. It may not quite be the right shade of pink, but that is not the point. The point is that the test is close enough and that electrolysis does leave heavy metals in solution.

If there is a chemist on this forum that can show by formula that SS plates produces Cr+6 during electrolysis, please do so.

Helz_McFugly

10-10-2009, 06:53 PM

IM2L844

10-10-2009, 06:58 PM

Show me the scientific data! That's the point. That's the debate. If you can't show me the scientific data then you are just hypothesizing, conjecturing, speculating and making presumptuous assertions. Stop glazing over the fact that nobody seems to be able to find any verifiable scientific data. THAT was the whole point! If you can't find the data, just admit that you can't find the data. We may gather data, in the future, that proves beyond any doubt that used electrolyte does, in fact, contain hexavalent chromium and I'm fine with that, but that was never the point. For cryin' out loud...

redrat100

10-10-2009, 07:05 PM

awesome. thats worth trying.
even if our SS e-lytes have HC in them, the HC can be neutralized with sugar.

Nice! Add some carbonation and bottle it. You will have a new energy drink like Amp or Rockstar. You can call it Hexxed!

dma1989

10-10-2009, 07:11 PM

Nice! Add some carbonation and bottle it. You will have a new energy drink like Amp or Rockstar. You can call it Hexxed!

I'd buy it!

My job hours are severely getting on my mantits

=D

Helz_McFugly

10-10-2009, 08:23 PM

Ive got a slogan

Hexxed,,,,, Make your mantits hard enough to use as tools. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/animated/anim_49.gif

dma1989

10-11-2009, 10:33 AM

save a fortune on hammer drills and claw hammers...

:D

biggy boy

10-11-2009, 04:49 PM

save a fortune on hammer drills and claw hammers...

:D

Wow I don't get it!!! :confused:

dma1989

10-11-2009, 06:50 PM

the 'gentlemen' area...

:D

I have a very bizarre sense of humour :p

Roland Jacques

10-11-2009, 08:53 PM

jerrygoldsmith

10-11-2009, 09:51 PM

my neighbor is a chemistry proff at the local university. I asked him before and he said it shouldn't contain it if I used high-quality plates, but someone mentioned in another thread I should have asked him to prove it.

So next time I see him I'm going to try and talk him into doing some tests. With low quality plates, high quality, and how much over a length of time. also, going to try and see if I can't get something polished and do the same tests.

This is, of course, if I can get him interested enough to help :)

IM2L844

10-12-2009, 01:00 PM

I believe that electrolyte from electrolyzers that have been operated beyond the recommeded current density of 0.5 amps per square inch will contain Cr(VI) simply because it has been proven that plate deterioration begins to occur at that level and the rate of deterioration increases exponentially with increasing current densities above that threshhold.

Jerry, tell your neighbor that it would be a good project for any grad students looking to specialize in the area of electrochemistry. You'll never get the professor to do the work himself, but you might be able to talk him into getting some students to do the work for extra credit.

Helz_McFugly

10-12-2009, 01:19 PM

All HC aside. how is it possable to get a higher quality HHO gas with this design Smack is boasting about? is there some magic molecule being created?

Philldpapill

10-12-2009, 03:21 PM

Helz_McFugly

10-12-2009, 03:29 PM

Helz, there is if Smack says there is. Stop debating this. Smack knows best.

Pay no attention to his seemingly non-sense rhetoric. He's so far beyond us all that even the things that he says are so advanced that lunacy becomes reality. Sieg Heil!
I dont know what i was thinking. when ever I watch any video with Smack in it, that george michael's song "faith" starts playing in my head.
AND NOW it will yours as well. :p

jerrygoldsmith

10-12-2009, 05:53 PM

I dont know what i was thinking. when ever I watch any video with Smack in it, that george michael's song "faith" starts playing in my head.
AND NOW it will yours as well. :p

Oh dang...... you B@stard! :eek::eek:

lhazleton

10-12-2009, 09:18 PM

Thanks, Helz............Not that I'm planning on watching any 'Dustin Douchebag' vids, but if I do, that song's definately gonna haunt me.

Philldpapill

10-12-2009, 09:26 PM

Damn you, Helz. I just sat through 3 minutes and 26 seconds of uber queerosity. Not only will I never get that valuable time back, but that song is in my head now.

A$shole.

Helz_McFugly

10-12-2009, 09:34 PM

Well ya gotta have Smack-ah-Smack-ah-Smack-ah
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biggy boy

10-12-2009, 09:35 PM

Thanks, Hels............Not that I'm planning on watching any 'Dustin Douchebag' vids, but if I do, that song's definately gonna haunt me.

OH NO look what the cat draged in!!! :D

Hey Lee, if your board and have nothing to do go read this post!!!
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=5328

Make sure your read every page, you don't want to miss any of the finer points!!

brianrey

11-26-2012, 11:03 PM

biggy boy

11-27-2012, 12:36 AM

This is amazing. I liked it. Visit the link given for more information on the same.

--------------
hexavalent chromium testing (http://appliedspeciation.com/selenium-mercury-hexavalent-chromium-testing-speciation.html)

Your first post on this forum and your doing a sales pitch for a company, Gee thanks Brianrey !?!??!

Glen

lhazleton

11-27-2012, 05:23 AM

Damn, Glen! Didn't know you were still around. How's everything up in the Great White North? :rolleyes:

biggy boy

11-27-2012, 08:58 AM

Damn, Glen! Didn't know you were still around. How's everything up in the Great White North? :rolleyes:

HUH :confused: Lee, don't you mean the Great Green North??? No snow here yet.
You got any snow yet Way down south in the New York State?

Things are great here, thanks for asking. Are you still working with HHO?

Glen