guidance on plate setup (pic)

[borgdrone]

Hi!

I have a pic here of my plate setup. Using the Smackbooster as a reference, but not using as many plates because I can't find a good enclosure for it for cheap (4inch pvc is what I hve)

basically, I have P=plate, W=nylon washer, B=bolt connecting 2 plates

PwP b PwP b PwP b PwP b PwP

So I have 1outer plate on each end, and 4 plate 'units'. 1 unit is 2 plates connected via stainless steal bolt.

I was going to have
+ NNNN -
or
+ NN - NN + (adding another plate)


Would more nuetral plates help me generate more HHO?

[jerrygoldsmith]

I don't know for sure, but you might consider putting your plates closer?

I'm guessing you have about 3mm gap at the smaller spaces, and about a centimeter at the ones with the nuts?

Try putting either 3mm or 6mm gaps between ALL the plates, separated by rubber/plastic/nylon washers. But I'm still experimenting with this too, so I might be completely off on that.

Also, you'll be able to put more neutral plates on there by getting rid of the nuts. All they are doing is sharing voltage between 2 plates, essentially making those 2 plates connected become like 1 plate. I think.

[Helz_McFugly]

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/confused/confused0087.gif

how are you going to control current?
with that setup youre going to creat alot of heat

[borgdrone]

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/confused/confused0087.gif

how are you going to control current?
with that setup youre going to creat alot of heat

I'm going to use a 20amp breaker, with fuse as well as cutoff switch.

so if i did that i'd have lower voltage and amps across each nuetral plate right? I was going to wrap the sides (leave top and bottom open) with shrink-wrap tape to keep current from just bleeding across all the edges

[Helz_McFugly]

I'm going to use a 20amp breaker, with fuse as well as cutoff switch.

so if i did that i'd have lower voltage and amps across each nuetral plate right? I was going to wrap the sides (leave top and bottom open) with shrink-wrap tape to keep current from just bleeding across all the edges

you cant control your current with a breaker and fuse. Its a must have to keep it from shorting out or melting but thats just a fail safe.

If you dont have a PWM youre going to have to control your amps/heat=(loss of energy) with your electrolyte mixture. what electrolyte are you going to use? how much water will your system hold?

to much e-lyte and youll get to much heat and a major loss in current and very low MMW

to little e-lyte and you wont be making much HHO

If youre not using a PWM, and Im guessing youre not, its going to take some bench work to get your solution right. add a couple tea spoons of your e-lyte (KOH is the best) and let it run for 10 minutes to make sure it doesnt over heat, 120f is a good temp, if it doesnt get warm or produce much HHO add another teaspoon, and so on and so on,, untill you get it just right, but I would look into getting a PWM.

[borgdrone]

Thank you magic surgeon man!


Here are some I found, do you have a recommendation? One is less expensive, but I wonder at its quality. But some of the more expensive ones have 400hz to 3khz adjustments.

$25 http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=2651121
$20 kit http://us.ebid.net/perl/auction.cgi?mo=auction&auction=9752455&from=googlebase#pic
$40 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PWM-PULSE-WIDTH-MODULATOR-TRUE-35A-HHO-GENERATOR_W0QQitemZ290355524648QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item439a89 b428&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245
$40 http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PWM-PULSE-WIDTH-MODULATOR-30A-HHO-HYDROGEN-GENERATOR_W0QQitemZ290268788657QQcmdZViewItemQQptZ Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item43955e 37b1&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245

[Helz_McFugly]

that last one looks like it would be perfect for the type cell you are building. I dont think you need to worry about adjusting your frequency yet. plus with the one it comes in a case so your not shorting **** out. $40 aint to bad.

BTW, im just trying to help anyone whos just getting started with HHO so they dont waist any time or money testing things that we have all tested before.

I started out with a cell a bit like yours. It was 6 plates in a water sediment filter, and a pvc pipe bubbler, thats it. it use to get so hot it would boil the water. I waisted alot of $ and time figuring out how to get the most efficient system I could get. I wish I had found a frum like this when i was getting started. so if you have any questions about anything just ask. everyone here is here to help.

magic surgeon man out http://www.abestweb.com/smilies/robot.gif

[borgdrone]

BTW, im just trying to help anyone whos just getting started with HHO so they dont waist any time or money testing things that we have all tested before.


THANK YOU! (and to everyone else who does the same!)

[jerrygoldsmith]

couldn't you use a 30amp relay if you don't want to worry about adjusting it?

[Helz_McFugly]

a 30amp relay will just limit the current to 30 amps, It wont control anything, and if your e-lyzer gets near 30 ,that relay will get so hot it will melt and fail. You would still have to control your amps/heat with the electrolyte mixture if youre not using a pwm. only you would be limited to 30 amps.

this is the relay I use. its a stinger 80 amp.
http://www.darvex.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/SGP38.jpg

[borgdrone]

was going to use a 30amp relay to make sure it turned on with my car anyways, so probably I'll use both.
30 relay to switch it on, and try that $40 PWM to regulate it. Probably will do more than 30amp on the relay though then, as I don't want to melt it out. 20-30 amp is supposed to be ideal in the car from what I've read...

found an inexpensive 60/80 amp relay (60-80 range i guess?). http://cgi.ebay.com/60-80-AMP-RELAY-SPDT-SINGLE-POLE-DOUBLE-THROW-NEW-654_W0QQitemZ110373059322QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item19b2bf3afa&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
I don't think I'll need 80 amps, 40 or 50 amp relay should be good enough I'd think to keep from burning out if I'm pulling 30 through my PWM for HHO.

THanks Helz!

[Helz_McFugly]

yea the 30 or 40 amp should be enough for what you are doing. I was jsut making the point that a relay doesnt control amps. it just allows you to not have to run your large gauge wire up to your dash, or where ever you switch is to turn it on/off.

what guage wire are you going to use? I wouldnt use anything smaller then 10 guage just to be safe. If that gets to hot youve got to much e-lytes in there. heat = loss of current. If youre pulling even colse to 30 amps with the cell in the pic youll be boiling water.

[borgdrone]

yea the 30 or 40 amp should be enough for what you are doing. I was jsut making the point that a relay doesnt control amps. it just allows you to not have to run your large gauge wire up to your dash, or where ever you switch is to turn it on/off.

what guage wire are you going to use? I wouldnt use anything smaller then 10 guage just to be safe. If that gets to hot youve got to much e-lytes in there. heat = loss of current. If youre pulling even colse to 30 amps with the cell in the pic youll be boiling water.

Friend of mine has some heavy wire for high-amp current he's going to help me wire up. He runs a dozen things in the dash of his car so he's used to that stuff :) I'd rather have a relay anyhow, because otherwise I'll forget to turn the blasted thing off at some point... I just know it!

I'm guessing a dry cell is the only way to keep from boiling water. I was going to use KOH as electrolyte. I don't have the money for a lot of good quality steel plates and stuff right now. Especially if I need to get these other things too.

Plus, I changed my cell, I've got -nnnnnn+nnnnnn- with the -'s ran from one plate off to the other. 3mm gaps between each. Probably will make a lot of heat though, so I'm going to save up for parts for dry-cell once I know I'm comfortable with doing this in general.

Plus.... its fun! I'm just glad folks like ya'll will help me not blow myself up or burn out my car in the process!

[Helz_McFugly]

Friend of mine has some heavy wire for high-amp current he's going to help me wire up. He runs a dozen things in the dash of his car so he's used to that stuff :) I'd rather have a relay anyhow, because otherwise I'll forget to turn the blasted thing off at some point... I just know it!

I'm guessing a dry cell is the only way to keep from boiling water. I was going to use KOH as electrolyte. I don't have the money for a lot of good quality steel plates and stuff right now. Especially if I need to get these other things too.

Plus, I changed my cell, I've got -nnnnnn+nnnnnn- with the -'s ran from one plate off to the other. 3mm gaps between each. Probably will make a lot of heat though, so I'm going to save up for parts for dry-cell once I know I'm comfortable with doing this in general.

Plus.... its fun! I'm just glad folks like ya'll will help me not blow myself up or burn out my car in the process!

hmm. Im not sure thats going to work to well being that its a bath cell and theres alot of current loss, even on a dry e-lyzer -nnnnn+nnnnn- is the perfecet config. thats 6 cells at about 2vdc per cell when using around 13.5vdc from the alternator. but ya might try it before you take apart. I think you have to many N's. being its a wet cell and there is current loss I would have gone with
+nnnn-nnnn+ or if you have 16 plates +nnnn-nnnn+nnnn-.
If you test it the way you have it now, youre going to have to mix your e-lytes VERY stong to get any production at all. but Ide take out 1 or 2 N's on each side.
I have my dry e-lyzer +nnnnnn- but I have 3/4 cup of KOH in 1/2 gallon of water. thats a pretty strong mix. Im thinking about taking on of my N's out when I get my PWM installed.

[Helz_McFugly]

I'd rather have a relay anyhow, because otherwise I'll forget to turn the blasted thing off at some point... I just know it!


oh yea, to avoid it being left on, use a hot wire that turns off when you turn your car off for the relay activation wire.

I have a toggle switch in my dash I can turn my system off with, the switches hot wire is ran to my fuse box. the fuse its wired to turns off when my key is off so it cant be left on.
and all my toggle switch wire and the wire from the toggle switch to the relay activation point is 20 guage wire. its doesnt take much to turn a relay on.
Hope that helps.

[jerrygoldsmith]

Helz is like, super helpful. Rocks. This site is so much better than any other I've been to.

Borg, I was on the watercar yahoo group (don't join btw, its just a big p!ssing contest there), and people were taking their wet-cells and wrapping them in shrink-wrap and electrical tape and stuff, just around the wide ends of the plates leaving the tops and bottoms open. They claimed that they got increased efficiency out of it that way.

I don't see how it could be as good as a dry cell, but if you are unable to spend the money on parts for a dry-cell then it can't hurt to try.

[Helz_McFugly]

thanks jerry.

and yes if you wrap your "wet cell" it does decrease current loss by getting rid of the edges of the plates on the sides. still not as efficient as a dry cell. alot of people use a giant piece of shrink wrap around the wet cells. But it will make taking your cell apart almost impossable, but yea, it works a little but its not worth doing any more because, mark my word, you will convert over to a dry cell sooner or later. dont waist your time. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0011.gif

[borgdrone]

thanks jerry.

and yes if you wrap your "wet cell" it does decrease current loss by getting rid of the edges of the plates on the sides. still not as efficient as a dry cell. alot of people use a giant piece of shrink wrap around the wet cells. But it will make taking your cell apart almost impossable, but yea, it works a little but its not worth doing any more because, mark my word, you will convert over to a dry cell sooner or later. dont waist your time. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0011.gif

I'm not throwing your wisdom to the wind, I just don't have the money for good quality steel plates for a Dry-Elec system :( This week I'm going to the junkyard and recycling center to try and find some steel plates for cheap.

Ok, I haven't measured my LPM yet.... but I wrapped it in some of that heat-shrink electrical tape, on sides top and bottom. I put slits on the bottom to let some water in when immersed, and some parts of the top I just left open.

I've had it on my 12v 7amp battery for 10 minutes and its not even remotely warm (cool as can be) and its broiling out bubbles like crazy. The wires aren't even warm, where previously I've had to take them off after about 3 minutes or I get nervous :p

[jerrygoldsmith]

Check the 'For Sale' section. They have a lot of plates for sale or info on where to get good ones.

Of course, you'll still end up paying over $100 for 8 plates most likely, shipping, etc.

I saw on there someone used metal cut from old trash cans. Though I couldn't tell you how to IDENTIFY what SS is 316L

If you can, start designing your drycell at least. Find out what you'll need so when you get the cash you can delve right into it. Use this time as a 'learning' period so you'll be more comfortable with the other one later on.

On another note, instead of shrink-tape you could also use some good quality tool-dip, and make a flat area to press all the edges onto, forming the dip inside the edges a few millimeters, covering the actual edges. Do this all the way around, then wrap your tape anyways just to keep it from being jarred loose, then poke your holes. You'll basically have a waxy seal around the whole thing.

Then again, this might be one of those things my wife refers to as "the stuff you make up in your head doesn't count" :p

[Helz_McFugly]

I'm not throwing your wisdom to the wind, I just don't have the money for good quality steel plates for a Dry-Elec system :( This week I'm going to the junkyard and recycling center to try and find some steel plates for cheap.

Ok, I haven't measured my LPM yet.... but I wrapped it in some of that heat-shrink electrical tape, on sides top and bottom. I put slits on the bottom to let some water in when immersed, and some parts of the top I just left open.

I've had it on my 12v 7amp battery for 10 minutes and its not even remotely warm (cool as can be) and its broiling out bubbles like crazy. The wires aren't even warm, where previously I've had to take them off after about 3 minutes or I get nervous :p

awesome, thats exactly what ya want. lots of bubbles. little heat.

are you still running it like this +nnnnnn- ?
got a pic or vid?

[borgdrone]

awesome, thats exactly what ya want. lots of bubbles. little heat.

are you still running it like this +nnnnnn- ?
got a pic or vid?


+nnn-nnn+

Might try to add another N again anyhow.

Attatched is a pic of it in action. I used almost 1 liter of water, half cup baking soda (I don't have any KOH on hand yet).

Yes, the solution is probably quite strong, but I wanted to see it kick up.

I recharged my battery (it was down to 7v) and I think its going out, as it went from 12v down to 8 in about 3 minutes which might explain why there was so little heat. Either way, there it is.

[jerrygoldsmith]

Was that bubbling up fast and furious or just fast? if that makes sense.

[borgdrone]

that's about 2 seconds after connecting the battery.

[Helz_McFugly]

Cool. remember, when you hook it up to your car and you start it, that 12 volts jumps up to almost 14 volts. if it gets to hot add another N on each side.

[jerrygoldsmith]

lol with winter coming you might not have to worry about it as much :p

[Helz_McFugly]

Im in Texas. whats winter? :p

[Philldpapill]

LOL I was going to say something simliar, Helz. Gotta love the Texas weather! Once minute it's 90 degrees, the next day, we have freezing rain...

[Helz_McFugly]

here is what my current system looks like.
http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1367&stc=1&d=1254707837

[jerrygoldsmith]

here is what my current system looks like.
http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1367&stc=1&d=1254707837

Blue LED's...... that's the most important part.
At first I thought you had a bunch of wet cells in tandem, but I'm guessing you have all those scrubbers due to the electrolyte solution being so strong.

[Helz_McFugly]

Blue LED's...... that's the most important part.


without the blue LED's it would be so boring, :p plus I wouldnt be able to see it bubbling from the driver seat, which is why i put em there.

There is only one real "bubbler" in my system. (the one on the left) because it has clean water in it and it removes steam and e-lytes. "Bubbler" is just another name for a wet scrubber.
The one on the right is the electrolyte reservoir. but people call it a bubbler/reservoir, it doesnt remove any e-lytes but it does remove a little steam.
the last one (in the center) is the dry scrubber, which I could also make as a second bubbler and it would probably be just as affective but I dont want any moisture from an e-lyte system in my engine so I made it dry scrubber.

I might make a steam generator later after I do some testing with it on my 24hp engine.

[jerrygoldsmith]

Too bad you don't have a Wet-cell in there to overheat.... you could attach a steam whistle.

[Helz_McFugly]

well I am going to put fake eyeballs in my bubbler to get in the halloween spirit.