why do we limit our e-lyzers to 13.8 VDC [Archive]

Helz_McFugly

10-01-2009, 09:29 AM

unless we have a dc/dc converter, dont bash me for wrongfull terms here, the largest cell that we can have in a car without over heating is a 7 cell configuration. thats about 1.97 volts per cell. the way im seeing it in my lil head is that anything more would be a waist of energy. SOOO why are we not building larger cells that can produce WAY more HHO at a lower temp simply by using a dc/dc converter. example: with 13.8vdc/45amps (621watts) you could turn that into 62.1vdc/10amps and run a 31 to 32 cell e-lyzer and get way more HHO out of that 621 watts then we could without the dc/dc converter. And even more should you get a higher amp alt. this is nothing new Im just confused why nobody is doing it around here. 13.8VDC + more amps = more watts + dc/dc converter = bigger cell = more HHO/less loss of E/less heat/higher MMW.

anyone want to start making DC/DC converters?
Ide like one please.

feel free to correct me on anything I said. I take criticism very well.

"EDIT" make that 7 cells at 1.97vdc, not 9 cells @ 1.5vdc. DOH!! I changed it up there.

Helz_McFugly

10-01-2009, 09:31 AM

would a normal PWM work on a DC current thats been converted to high volts/low amps?

Roland Jacques

10-01-2009, 09:58 AM

unless we have a dc/dc converter, dont bash me for wrongfull terms here, the largest cell that we can have in a car without over heating is a 9 cell configuration.

I by "Cell" you mean the space's between the plates.

The more gaps/N-plates/cells the less heat to the point of diminishing returns, normally around 6 N- plates or 7 cells
(unless you can do some special metal conditioning that shows promise)
We can have -nnnnnn+nnnnnn-nnnnnn+nnnnnn-nnnnnn+nnnnnn- and so on. so I'm not sure i follow you. you could call this a 6 stack of 7 cell electrolyzer
and this would stay cool under 120F

that's about 1.5 volts per cell. the way im seeing it in my lil head is that anything more would be a waist of energy.

as i understand it 1.9 volts is about as low of volts as possible for "normal" SS electrolyzer's cell drop can produce HHO

Anything less (Less number of cells) waste energy on heat. +nnn- waste makes more heat than +nnnnnn-

Anything more (more number of cells) draws less current and produces little to no HHO

Edit: Oops, you meant volts

SOOO why are we not building larger cells that can produce WAY more HHO at a lower temp simply by using a dc/dc converter. example: with 13.8vdc/45amps (621watts) you could turn that into 62.1vdc/10amps and run a 41 to 42 cell and get way more HHO out of that 621 watts then we could without the dc/dc converter. And even more should you get a higher amp alt. this is nothign new Im just confused why nobody is doing it around here. 13.8VDC + more amps = more watts + dc/dc converter = bigger cell = more HHO/less loss of E/less heat.

anyone want to start making DC/DC converters?
Ide like one please.

feel free to correct me on anyhting I said. I take criticism very well.

Roland Jacques

10-01-2009, 10:08 AM

Sorry, man i misunderstood the question, volts and cells...

Helz_McFugly

10-01-2009, 10:12 AM

yea Im a little off on the 1.5 VDC. should have went with 2.

so is a 28 cell config like this with a PWM running on 13.8vdc/40.5amps
+nnnnnn-nnnnnn+nnnnnn-nnnnnn+
be the same as a 28 cell with a dc/dc converter & PWM running 56vdc/10amps
+nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn-

would the MMW be the same?
would the HHO output be the same?

I dont have a huge understanding of current which is why I stay out those "building a PWM" threads that get into the gutts of electronics. but when it comes to mechanics I will hammer your face :P

biggy boy

10-01-2009, 10:26 AM

The PWM I just built uses N-channel Mosfets that are rated for 200 volts at 30 amp a piece. I used three of them so its good for 90 amps at 200 volts.
But I would not run 200 volts throught it. Max I would run would be like 150 volts. I like to derate stuff!

Philldpapill

10-01-2009, 10:30 AM

I hate to say it, Helz, but it won't make much difference... Here's why.

Let's start by finding the root cause of the wasted heat. Look at the "water-metal" junction in each plate/water boundry. What's going on there? We have electrons jumping off the metal plate, and combining with H+ ions to form Hydrogen. If electrons are jumping off the negative plate, then that means we must have electrons jumping on to the positive plate on the other water/metal junction. At that + plate we have OH- ions forming O2 and more H+ ions which stay in the water. That's normal electrolysis, but look at each cell.

Let's say we have 1A flowing through a single cell in the electrolyzer, no matter what the arrangement is... Now, put another cell in series with the first. We still have 1A frlowing through each cell, but that 1A goes in one cell, and out of that one, into the next, and back to the supply. We would have double the voltage drop across these two cells, as opposed to one. Now, let's get that first cell, and put a second in parallel. We now have 1A flowing into the first cell, and another 1A flowing into the second cell, but the voltage drop is the same across both cells.

When you look at what is going on in a SINGLE cell, it looks EXACTLY the same if it's connected to a string of 1,000 cells, or a parallel bank of 1,000 cells. The thing that ultimately matters is the current THROUGH a single cell. What I'm trying to say(and seemingly failing horrible), is that it doesn't matter which arrangement you have the cells in. Power is Power, whether it's 13V * 30A, or 30V * 13A. However, when you start FORCING more current into a cell than it "likes", then you'll have more of that same "Power" going into making heat, instead of HHO.

Roland Jacques

10-01-2009, 10:38 AM

I dont know the answer.

I do know that folks use inverter to go to a/c 110 then rectifier that to drive cells like you describe
http://www.marchlabs.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SUPERNOVA

but when you factor inverters, rectifiers, and the correct way to measure that. not really sure which is gives a better MMW. but "they say" the nova type electrolyzer can have about 9-11 MMW

Thinking about using a alternator, rectified to DC, then converted to AC, then rectified back to DC, i get a little dizzy. :p

Where is Phil when you need him.

Roland Jacques

10-01-2009, 10:40 AM

Oops, thare he is.

Philldpapill

10-01-2009, 10:54 AM

That's an excellent point, Roland. Hypothetically, a higher voltage/more plate design should be just as efficient as a 12V design. However, when you start factoring in the total loss of the system(i.e. the added loss of the inverter), your MMW starts going down.

Helz_McFugly

10-01-2009, 10:57 AM

@phill, Yea makes perfect sense. so both examples I gave would be exactly the same?
I just see a setup like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1FYGCSDekE and think "WTF arent we using this type of config in our cars with a dc converter?"
but we can, we would just have to make it bunch of +nnnnnnn- cell's in parallel? correct?

biggy boy

10-01-2009, 12:36 PM

If you are making a very high output HHO Gen,
the one benefit I can see to using higher voltage is:

The amperage draw! Lower voltage means higher amperage.
Compared to higher voltage lower amperage.

Lower voltage higher amperage:
Bigger wires need, higher amperage rated controls IE: relays, fuse holders, connectors, PWMs....

Higher voltage lower amps:
smaller gauge wire, smaller relays, smaller fuse holders, smaller components for the PWM.............

IM2L844

10-01-2009, 12:40 PM

There are several theories about exactly how the phase transition between the electronic phase and the ionic phase at the electrode/electrolyte interface takes place, but that's neither here nor there.

Excluding losses in efficiency due to side reactions, joule heating and so forth, at room temperature and 1 atmosphere of pressure you will ALWAYS get a MAXIMUM of 11.4 milliliters per minute per amp per cell.

This is not speculation on my part. This is a fundemental law of nature. Some of the greatest scientific and engineering minds on the planet have thoroughly and exhaustively studied every aspect of this you can think of with the most precise equipment under the most tightly controlled environments and they have universally come to the consensus that Faraday's Law governing electrochemical equivalents is a fundementally ridged, precise and unbreakable law of nature to which no known exceptions have ever been verified.

I'm not saying that some guy in his garage can never discover an exception, but, lacking independent verification by mutiple qualified professionals, the burden of proof should be extraordinarily nonindulgent.

Anyway, yeah, I took off on a little tangent, but 11.4 mL per minute per amp per cell will let you do the math for yourself or you can just play around with my calculator and it will do the math for you.

biggy boy

10-01-2009, 12:49 PM

Just so I understand!
The max production of HHO possible at 100% efficiency is 11.4 millilitres for every amp you pump through an entire Generator or is it per each individual cell space?

IM2L844

10-01-2009, 12:57 PM

It will change with temperature and pressure , but, yes it is per each individual cell space. An electrolyzer is NOT "a cell". A cell consists of two electronically conducting phases (at the plates) connected by an ionically conducting phase (through the aqueous electrolyte between them). In a single cell, as an electrical current passes, it must change from electronic current at the surface of the positive face of one plate to ionic current through the electrolyte and back to electronic current at the negative face of the other plate.

The only way to increase efficiency with brute force electrolysis, which is what most of us are trying to do, is to get the maximum amp draw with minimum voltage and according to Ohm's Law the only way to do that is by reducing resistance.

Philldpapill

10-01-2009, 01:51 PM

VERY well put, yet again, IM2L844!

@biggy_boy #6
Running 150V with your 200V MOSFETs is still pretty excessive. In one of my early PWM designs, I was getting WAY more power dissipation in my FETs than I had figured. It was a total mystery to me for the longest time until I found the problem - stray inductances.

I was only running 30A @ 12V input, but my FETs were getting really hot to the touch. What I found was a very simple, but hard to fix, problem. The actual 10gauge wires I used were only about 5' in length total, but doing a quick inductance measurement showed that I had about 2uH of inductance in those lines. When my FETs would turn off, they would get slammed with a high voltage spike, causing the internal diodes to reverse bias, and conduct. The FET was a 55V, 0.0085 Rds, power FET, but those voltage spikes were causing the excessive dissipation. In other words, for a fraction of a second, the FET internal diodes were turning on, dropping 55V, and conducting 30A. This happened for a very short period of time, but when I was switching at 10kHz-100kHz, that little bit of dissipation happened thousands of times a second, resulting in alot of heat and sometimes failure.

The solution(which is in my current design), is a rather beefy capacitor bank at the inputs of the PWM. This allows the energy, that is stored in the stray inductance, to transfer to the capacitor bank instead of slamming the FETs. This is reactive energy, so it is returned back to the load. The bank needs to have a low ESR(Equivalent Series Resistance which is a property of the capcitors), so that the caps themselves don't dissipate too much power via the ESR. Big caps, however, are pretty pricey. I've found some on Mouser that should be pretty good. Only trouble is, they are surface mount, and will take up a 5" x 5" area of board. My simulations show that for a 35A ripple, I'd need about 22 of these. 25 would be a very safe bet. That ripple is NOT the actual HHO cell current. Using an inductor like I had said earlier, can yield about 75A of HHO current, with 35A ripple.

Anyway, I've almost lost sight of the point... Oh yeah - don't operate your FETs at 150V... You MIGHT get by with 100V input voltage, with minimal heat.

Just a quick rant... Those PWM's on ebay that boast a whopping 55A and use "6 100A mosfets" are decieving. The PWM could probably handle a completely non-inductive load at 55A, but throw in the tiny bit of inductance in the wires, and good luck working with even 30A without massive power dissipation.

Helz_McFugly

10-01-2009, 02:00 PM

I love this place http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/love/love0030.gif

biggy boy

10-01-2009, 03:33 PM

So you use Inductance to control current spikes.
Capacitance to control voltage spikes.

Inductance in series with the load ( HHO gen)

Cap bank in ?parellel? with the load?

Philldpapill

10-01-2009, 03:37 PM

Er, sort of..... Inductors resist changes in current, and capacitors resist changes in voltage.

In my setup, I'm going to have an inductor in parallel with the load(the HHO cell), and a capacitor bank in parallel with the INPUT supply. I'll also have a diode in parallel with the inductor/load series circuit. This allows the current to recirculate through the diode with the mosfet turns off.

biggy boy

10-01-2009, 03:46 PM

biggy boy

10-01-2009, 07:22 PM

@IM2L844
Is your first name Nick by any chance?

Philldpapill

10-01-2009, 09:13 PM

I'm confused - lack of sleep maybe? I don't mean to be a jackass, but isn't that what I said, biggy boy?

biggy boy

10-01-2009, 09:38 PM

In my setup, I'm going to have an inductor in parallel with the load(the HHO cell

Sorry this part was confusing me! you said in parallel, but the diagram shows series. I'm sure it was a typo!

And your not being a Jackass LOL :)

Philldpapill

10-01-2009, 09:47 PM

Oh, I gotchya... Yeah, I need sleep. I read that, and thought "what's wrong with that????"

You're totally right.

IM2L844

10-01-2009, 10:05 PM

@IM2L844
Is your first name Nick by any chance?Yes. My full name is Nick Stone. I think I've signed several of my posts around here with my real name and my calculator is hosted at the new website I'm trying to put together: http://nicksrealm.com
Those two things alone, I think, would be a dead give-away. What might your name be, Biggy?

Helz_McFugly

10-02-2009, 12:16 AM

Nick, will you sign my boobs?
http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0023.gif

biggy boy

10-02-2009, 10:03 AM

Yes. My full name is Nick Stone. I think I've signed several of my posts around here with my real name and my calculator is hosted at the new website I'm trying to put together: http://nicksrealm.com
Those two things alone, I think, would be a dead give-away. What might your name be, Biggy?

I'm Glen
Yes I was reading some of your articles at your new site and noticed the similarities. So I figured you were either Nick or a plagiarist :D

No I have not noticed your name here in any of the posts.

Nice looking site by the way :cool: I'm a new member there.

IM2L844

10-02-2009, 10:09 AM

ROFLMAO!! Helz, your uncommon wit and sense of humor always puts a smile on my face. Of course, I'll sign anything you like, but all I have to write with is a tat gun.

Helz_McFugly

10-02-2009, 10:25 AM

Im just about out of room for any more tatts. google me *****. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0007.gif Im huge in china. 6' to be exact.

Awesome site. Im a member now.

Roland Jacques

10-02-2009, 10:29 AM

Nick, check your PM

IM2L844

10-02-2009, 10:50 AM

I'm Glen
Yes I was reading some of your articles at your new site and noticed the similarities. So I figured you were either Nick or a plagiarist :D

No I have not noticed your name here in any of the posts.

Nice looking site by the way :cool: I'm a new member there.Thanks, Glen.

Yeah, there are a few things I tend to harp on everywhere I go. There is a lot of HHO misinformation constantly being perpetuated and that bugs me to no end. If we are ever going to have a succesful concerted effort in the promotion of HHO technology, which I believe works, I think we have got to be honest about its inherent limitations and call people out when they are spewing crap and spreading myths.

Currently, my main target is the 7.5 MMW (break even point) myth. It was the main impetus behind the building of my calculator. If I can ever get ZeroFossilFuel to stop promulgating this myth, I will consider it a win for all of the HHO community. I will probably make him and his fan club mad along the way, but the truth is what it is. I don't think Zero or the other people promoting this myth are being the least bit disingenuous, I just don't think they understand the science. I want to change that. I want to make the science and the math behind it easy for everyone to understand.

Temporary end of rant,
Nick Stone

Popsie

10-02-2009, 11:06 AM

From my years of experiance using the 12 vdc from the battery that the configuration of +----+----+----+----+ that's 21 plates. I've installed two units on a Getta and he's still getting 80mpg. Using KOH and around 15-18 amps each.If the cells are not separate from each other the electricty seems to leak and the hho production suffers. Have you had the chance to read George Wisemans e-book Browns Gas II ? There's a lot of information about power supplies, plates and most every thing. 65 pages or so. I was given my copy and will give a copy to just about any one that interested. If you want a lot of gas then a inverter is needed to get the voltage up around 100+ then run it through a bridge rectifier ( less than $1.00 ) to bring it back to DC. A heat sink and fan is needed.This will pulse at 120 hz. Measure voltage out of inverter and divide by 1.60 to get the number of cells.

Helz_McFugly

10-02-2009, 11:30 AM

7.5 MMW (break even point) myth
what do you mean by break even point? break even on energy used vs energy created?

IM2L844

10-02-2009, 11:36 AM

"Break even point" are not my words, but what I've seen 7.5 MMW called. I can only assume what is meant by it. I've seen this figure thrown around for a couple of years as the definitive representation of 100% Faraday efficiency. It's not.

Helz_McFugly

10-02-2009, 11:36 AM

IM2L844

10-02-2009, 11:46 AM

It doesn't take that kind of juice. 10 gauge wire is more than enough. You want volts not amps, and that's a fact jack. 1.5 volts per cell 115 volts = 77 plates = 5 amps a liter in 10 seconds= 575 watts77 plates = 76 cells.
76 cells x 5amps for 10 seconds at room temperature and 1 atmosphere of pressure = exactly 722.664 milliliters of pure HHO. The rest is more than likely water vapor. HHO is, inherently, by virtue of the way it is evolved, a "wet gas" and that always has to be taken into consideration.

If we change the variables just a tiny bit, it can make a significant difference. For example, if we use 5.25 amps for 10.5 seconds and a barometric pressure of 1008 like we have in West Virginia today and a temperature of 95 degrees Fahrenheit, we get 827.749 milliliters of pure HHO. That only leaves 172.251 milliliters of water vapor and the container being used to measure the volume could easily be off by a large part of that unless you took great pains to calibrate it correctly (and I'm not trying to say you didn't). In any event, you would still have a pure HHO MMW of 7.83 which, in my book, is exceptionally good.

Philldpapill

10-02-2009, 12:13 PM

If you REALLY want "volts, not amps", don't use a 120VAC inverter. Make a boost converter out of your PWM. It works kind of like the "buck" converter I've been talking about, but instead of bumping up current, and lowering voltage, it bumps up voltage, at the expense of current. Just a rough estimate - It would probably have at least half the losses compared to an inverter since the inverter USES this type of circuit to generate the high voltage in the first place. There wouldn't be any need for wasteful rectification either.

biggy boy

10-02-2009, 01:11 PM

Make a boost converter out of your PWM.

That's what I was wondering about, Ive seen diagrams for boosting voltage. this was used to power Amp tubes in a tube distortion guitar pedal.

It's the section at the bottom of the picture. Not sure if you were to change the components out if it would handle the needed current flow for our purpose?

Popsie

10-02-2009, 01:25 PM

The plates measured 3x7.5x.032 The spacing was .0625 a 1/16. On my 77 plate, they're 5x8.8x.018 spaced 3/8. I just took a 2 quart bottle and put it in a 5 gallon bucket. and turned it on, room temp. Kinda estamated a little. North Florida I've got some pic's but not online how do you insert when they're in my pictures. I click on insert image and it's got a http?

Helz_McFugly

10-02-2009, 01:29 PM

3/8 is a big space. Ive never seen one with that much spacing. 1/8 is about as big as ive seen. whats your KOH mixture at. Ide love to see that 77 plate e-lyzer at work. do you have any vids of it?

Philldpapill

10-02-2009, 01:33 PM

@biggyboy #38
That LOOKS like a voltage multiplier circuit. You can wikipedia it for more info, but it basically works like this:
The pin on the chip that connects to half of the capacitors, alternates between 12V and 0V(ground). What happens, is it charges up the caps with positive polarity, then the chip output reverses polarity, which charges the next stage up to 1.5X the input polarity. It keeps repeating until it has a bunch of capacitors of 1.5X polarity all in series. If you tap the output, it will be a higher voltage than the input.

The only problem is ALL those diodes... The circuit has the potential to generate HUGE voltages(they used to use it on particle accelerators when making MegaVolts...), but it's VERY inefficient. You could make one to play around with, but as far as a practical application for HHO, I don't see it being feasible. A Boost Converter would be the way to go if you want high voltages.

@popsie #39
You need to upload the pictures to something like PhotoBucket.com. You then post the URL to the picture... Yeah, the forum software is a little annoying like that, but I guess it's to keep spammers from uploading GB's of junk to the server...

Popsie

10-02-2009, 01:49 PM

I fixing to post on ( for sale ) I've got 4 Sunpro 0-60 amp meters brand new in packages $7.50 a piece plus shipping from 32421 Paypal only

Helz_McFugly

10-02-2009, 01:52 PM

LOL, i just bought one of those about an hour ago at Napa for $15. what a Kuh-Wink-E-Dink

Popsie

10-02-2009, 02:02 PM

The black one blew up, put the guts in the clear one.http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt116/Popsie7625/generator1000lph003.jpg http://i603.photobucket.com/albums/tt116/Popsie7625/Dylansgenerator001.jpg Thanks for the photobucket info

Popsie

10-02-2009, 02:03 PM

I don't know what happened there's 2 pictures some where, and thanks for the photobucket

Popsie

10-02-2009, 02:06 PM

You can right click and open in new tab on the link under the picture to view current unit

Helz_McFugly

10-02-2009, 02:25 PM

@Popsie. Im just being curious. whats the best MPG gain youve ever seen personaly? what size engine? how many LPM of HHO? any efie's?

Popsie

10-02-2009, 02:54 PM

The best I've seen was a diesel VW, he claimed it went from around 40 to around 80, he flys helicopers and carried some kind of fuel with him and added some to his tank. On my S-15 GMC with a 2.8 I believe around 28 was the best. About 18% on a Chevy 350 4 barrel Caprice. I haven't been messing with one for autos for some time.

Helz_McFugly

10-02-2009, 03:03 PM

what are you using them for?

Popsie

10-02-2009, 03:25 PM

Pittling with overunity in my mind. This one is for a gen-set. It will run a 6hp without a load. I connected another bubbler after the first one and put gas in it and it idled my 2.8 V-6. Ran the heck out of the 6hp. When I get it encased I'll boost the KOH to get around 10 amps and see what it'll do.

Helz_McFugly

10-02-2009, 03:55 PM

OU huh. good luck with that. Im doing a power gen test as well but not for OU. just to show that boosting works. I have a huge 24hp power gen i plan on running a HHO gen off of to show proof boosting works. still confused why no one has done this yet. Smack did it but he wa powering his HHO off his house ac current, DUR!! and zero did something different but it wasnt right what ever it was. I need to watch his video. My goal is to show a 20% increase in efficiency by boosting with HHO and to have an unedited video proving it. Ive got the power gen all setup. now I just have to build a good bench HHO gen for the test. depending on how good it works Ill start adding loads to it (ie lights, fans, heaters, ect) its a HUGE power gen. you can frikkin weld with it.

Popsie

10-02-2009, 04:11 PM

Yea, the e-book is really directions for building a welder. I plan on building a Geet fuel reformer and should get real close to ou. Set a record for less amount of gasoline for across the nation trip.

biggy boy

10-02-2009, 04:47 PM

depending on how good it works Ill start adding loads to it (ie lights, fans, heaters, ect)

YA Ya Lights lots of light, big bright lights and aim them at the neighbors :p
And maybe power an air compressor to run one of those big tractor trailer air horns!!

Philldpapill

10-02-2009, 05:06 PM

YeaI plan on building a Geet fuel reformer and should get real close to ou. Set a record for less amount of gasoline for across the nation trip.

LOL Sorry, Popsie, but your post was funny... "get real close to ou"? You are either producing more power than is consumed, or you aren't. Getting close to ou is called "high efficiency", which is great.

However, the GEET thing is just silly. I've watched/read a lot of stuff about GEET and it seems to be total nonsense. Any time someone(like in the videos) starts saying something like "the fuel causes an implosion when the cylinder is at TDC" needs to be locked up in a nut-house.