A New Horizontal Design

[IM2L844]

I have been advising a friend of mine on his new horizontal design and last night he sent me some data that blew me away. These are preliminary test results with only 30 grams of NaOH per 1.5 gal. distilled water. The implication is he could add yet another cell with increased electrolyte concentration which would improve efficiency even further. I expect my friend will open source his design because there are always plenty of people who will pay the designer to build it for them whether they have the information available to do it themselves or not. Anyway, I was so impressed, I thought I would share it with you guys. Here are the preliminary test results:
http://www.nicksrealm.com/images/ss.jpg
See how easy it is, Richard, to supply some simple data?

[IM2L844]

I thought the forums would automatically resize the image...sorry about that...Okay, I was able to change it.

[hhonewbie]

can we veiw this cell?

[IM2L844]

I'm hoping for some video sometime later today. I'll ask if it's okay to share it when I get it.

[Helz_McFugly]

Is this cell in any way like the volcano cells, which are also horizontal, ive been seeing? having only one hole serving as inlet/outlet on the top. im assuming his has an inlet and an outlet unlike the volcano cells?

[IM2L844]

The active surface area of the plates is 4" x 3" and Each plate only has one hole in it. The hole swaps ends with every plate so there is never a straight shot for the current to take all the way through the electrolyzer without having to pass through another plate. The final outlet is on the top and the return inlet is on the bottom. There are a few other details I should get permission to share before I give up all the design features, but what I've said so far isn't anything new. Another friend of mine was pursuing the same basic design a couple of years ago and he was having good results as well, but then he got married. That put a kink in his experimenting.

[Philldpapill]

Just curious - why the >100% faraday efficiency?

The maximum amount of H2 produced is a function of the number of electrons "jumping" off the negative plates... You can't have a >100% efficiency, so either the data is a bit bongled, or the calculator is?

Any thoughts, IM2L844?

[IM2L844]

The calculator is exactly right, but I would encourage you to perform the calculations by hand to confirm it as I have done many, many times in the past. I believe it's a combination of water vapor along with what I would estimate as a minimum combined +/- 3% margin of error due to imprecise equipment calibration (voltmeter + ammeter + timer + volumetric container + human bias, etc.). Also, I don't think he entered the correct temperature.

[Philldpapill]

That's true... I agree - that temp looks awfully suspect. LOL Nice, pretty, generic room temperature.

BTW, nice little line there at the bottom of your first post. lol

[IM2L844]

The important thing to notice is that there are 9 cells in series with a 1.33 volts per cell. The fact that he was able to draw any amps at all with that electrolyte concentration or any electrolyte concentration, for that matter is impressive all by itself. BTW, the voltage efficiency is based on thermoneutral voltage (1.48v) not standard potential (1.23v).

Collecting, showing and discussing the data isn't a terribly difficult thing to do and it isn't going to give anything away...AND...it didn't take 70 pages of 90% crap to get here.

[Roland Jacques]

Wow those numbers are fantastic. Can't wait to see how this is possable.

[IM2L844]

Here's the kicker. He's going to add one more cell to the series for a total of 10. now if he raises his source voltage to 13.3, he would still have 1.33 volts per cell and should be able to maintain a 6 amp draw with the same electrolyte concentration, but he has 27 sq. inches of surface area, so he could stand to increase his electrolyte concentration and get his amp draw up to about 13 amps. Now, if he can do that with 10 cells in series, he will have the most efficient automotive electrolyzer I know of and should produce nearly 1.5 LPM with 13 amps. That's crazy good. He was supposed to try it today, but I haven't heard from him.

[Philldpapill]

Wow, this is a two-fer thread... You've got amazing results, AND you posted them in the first thread without tons of crap to sift through, then getting let down when you realize it's ALL crap. Nice!

[Roland Jacques]

Here's the kicker. He's going to add one more cell to the series for a total of 10. now if he raises his source voltage to 13.3, he would still have 1.33 volts per cell and should be able to maintain a 6 amp draw with the same electrolyte concentration, but he has 27 sq. inches of surface area, so he could stand to increase his electrolyte concentration and get his amp draw up to about 13 amps. Now, if he can do that with 10 cells in series, he will have the most efficient automotive electrolyzer I know of and should produce nearly 1.5 LPM with 13 amps. That's crazy good. He was supposed to try it today, but I haven't heard from him.

Could I be smelling Urea? 1.9 volt drop is the lowest effective gap drop that ive heard of. What about a design could change this? We are talking about water right?

[IM2L844]

No pee power here. LOL. All the overvoltage is required to overcome the resistance. I can tell you what we have been concentrating on is reducing the resistance. Two commonly known ways to do that is with thinner plates and closer spacing, but there is also a process that can actually reduce the inherent resistance of the material itself and those are the beans I'm not willing to spill until I get permission.

[Roland Jacques]

No pee power here. LOL. All the overvoltage is required to overcome the resistance. I can tell you what we have been concentrating on is reducing the resistance. Two commonly known ways to do that is with thinner plates and closer spacing, but there is also a process that can actually reduce the inherent resistance of the material itself and those are the beans I'm not willing to spill until I get permission.


Phil, are you sure this is more informative? I think they are the same person.

Look this is awesome 888.888 MMW. I cant tell you anything about it, but look isn't this cool. :rolleyes:

JUST KIDDING. :D

[IM2L844]

That's funny. It is a little ironic, isn't it?

I'm all about open source and even though it was my idea, I was not the one who had easy access to the process and was able to implement the idea, so I really would like to get the okay from the actual builder. The testing has just begun and is anything but conclusive. I would like to wait until all the testing is complete, but if you're going to start lumping me in with the "please read this" attention slut, I'll cave to the peer pressure. Still, without all the information, I'm not sure to what extent my ideas have been implemented

Besides using all the conventional methods we could think of to reduce resistance, the idea was to try Deep cryogenic treatments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Cryogenic_Treatment) of all the plates, wires and electrical connections to see how it might affect the overall electrical properties of the system. Apparently, it has had a positive impact, but only time and further testing will tell for sure.

You never know...I could be making the whole thing up just to get a little attention.

[Helz_McFugly]

well you could always claim that if testing goes as planned you could install this system on a Vespa and get it to run from Los Angeles to D.C. on 1 tank of fuel. Of corse you would have to wear the right helmet to reduce wind resistance and propper wading boots for when the **** gets deep.

[richard_lyew]

No pee power here. LOL. All the overvoltage is required to overcome the resistance. I can tell you what we have been concentrating on is reducing the resistance. Two commonly known ways to do that is with thinner plates and closer spacing, but there is also a process that can actually reduce the inherent resistance of the material itself and those are the beans I'm not willing to spill until I get permission.

LOL i guess everybody has their beans, i hope Helz give you hell with yours too :D

[richard_lyew]

That's funny. It is a little ironic, isn't it?

I'm all about open source and even though it was my idea, I was not the one who had easy access to the process and was able to implement the idea, so I really would like to get the okay from the actual builder. The testing has just begun and is anything but conclusive. I would like to wait until all the testing is complete, but if you're going to start lumping me in with the "please read this" attention slut, I'll cave to the peer pressure. Still, without all the information, I'm not sure to what extent my ideas have been implemented

Besides using all the conventional methods we could think of to reduce resistance, the idea was to try Deep cryogenic treatments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Cryogenic_Treatment) of all the plates, wires and electrical connections to see how it might affect the overall electrical properties of the system. Apparently, it has had a positive impact, but only time and further testing will tell for sure.

You never know...I could be making the whole thing up just to get a little attention.

LOL so alien face can hold back and everyone loves it but nobody else can do it?. hypocrites everywhere :D then you want the mods to shut down my thread but you can open yours and do the samething and they let it? :D

[IM2L844]

well you could always claim that if testing goes as planned you could install this system on a Vespa and get it to run from Los Angeles to D.C. on 1 tank of fuel. Of corse you would have to wear the right helmet to reduce wind resistance and propper wading boots for when the **** gets deep.Vespa? Helz no, we're gonna take one of these babys across the Atlantic to visit Buster, powered by nothing but a solar panel and pure HHO :rolleyes::
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0snTqLQLpBA

[richard_lyew]

oh yes one more thing i hope u guys dont forget to retemper them else you would just have waste time :D just a heads up

[IM2L844]

oh yes one more thing i hope u guys dont forget to retemper them else you would just have waste time :D just a heads upWhen I want your opinion, I'll give it to you.

Apparently, Richard is now an expert on cryogenic treatment of metals and thought he should send me the following private message:
u know i can spill the beans and tell the forum that ur just turning all the Austenite to Martensite and they would catch on but i didnt go that way, instead what i did was to coat all my (-) plates with platinum....when it CLEARLY stated in the very short Wikipedia article from the link that I VOLUNTARILY PROVIDED in an above post that:
After heat treatment, steels still have a certain percentage of retained austenite which can be transformed into martensite via cryogenic treatment.What is your deal, dude? Would you please just get over yourself?

[Philldpapill]

Richard, go back under your bridge and troll there, please. Don't bring the whole arguement crap into this thread as well.

[Roland Jacques]

That's funny. It is a little ironic, isn't it?

I'm all about open source and even though it was my idea, I was not the one who had easy access to the process and was able to implement the idea, so I really would like to get the okay from the actual builder. The testing has just begun and is anything but conclusive. I would like to wait until all the testing is complete, but if you're going to start lumping me in with the "please read this" attention slut, I'll cave to the peer pressure. Still, without all the information, I'm not sure to what extent my ideas have been implemented

Besides using all the conventional methods we could think of to reduce resistance, the idea was to try Deep cryogenic treatments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Cryogenic_Treatment) of all the plates, wires and electrical connections to see how it might affect the overall electrical properties of the system. Apparently, it has had a positive impact, but only time and further testing will tell for sure.

You never know...I could be making the whole thing up just to get a little attention.

I am sooo laughing my butt off.

Didn't mean to pressure you Bro (well maybe just a little). I never knew that cryo had that effect on metal, great idea. Not sure how the horizontal fits in, but thanks for the cryo tip ...

[Helz_McFugly]

I rebuilt my cell today. Its horizontal now. 19 3"X3" square plates with a 1/2 hole in the center and 4 1/16" holes in the corners of every other plate, 4 1/16" holes on the outside center of every other plate. it feeds i from the bottom and exits out the top. Im getting a litle over 1LPM at 13.8vdc/13amps so its somewhere around 6.22MMW. I was at 5.5MMW with less square inches of plate surface.
you can see the config of the plates in my signiture.
I got a little bit more eficientcy, every bit counts.

thanks for the idea Nick.

[IM2L844]

That's cool, but I'm a little unclear about your hole placements. Are they placed so the convection current of the electrolyte will sequentially help sweep the bubbles off of each successive plate surface like this:
http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1338&d=1253466654

[Helz_McFugly]

Ya thats how Im going to do a larger cell but this is how I did this small one.
here is a pic of it setup in my truck. Its got its own light show. HAR!

[Roland Jacques]

I want to know if i understand the goal of this horizontal idea, Please correct me where I'm wrong.

So is the basic idea here is to have More bubbles between the plates? Slower movement of the bubbles = more bubbles in the gap= less water and electrolyte ( less resistance) for the current to pass through.

Pros; less resistance
Cons; possibly less production (due to less plate area exposed to electrolyte)


PS Nice setup McFugly

[Helz_McFugly]

well if you have it setup like IM2L844 has his shown it would force the e-lytes over every bit of surface area in the e-lyzer. add a small pump and I think it would work even better. The way I have mine setup it forces the e-lytes through the center to the outer edges and then forced up criss crossing so nothing is left sitting in there. Im using the same amount of SS surface area as I was before and its making more HHO. All I did was cut my plates in half and drill holes around the edges.

If I had larger plates Ide do it like IM2L844 has his diagram with maybe 4, 1/4" holes on each end, maybe 9"X5" plates

[Roland Jacques]

well if you have it setup like IM2L844 has his shown it would force the e-lytes over every bit of surface area in the e-lyzer. add a small pump and I think it would work even better. The way I have mine setup it forces the e-lytes through the center to the outer edges and then forced up criss crossing so nothing is left sitting in there. Im using the same amount of SS surface area as I was before and its making more HHO. All I did was cut my plates in half and drill holes around the edges.

If I had larger plates Ide do it like IM2L844 has his diagram with maybe 4, 1/4" holes on each end, maybe 9"X5" plates

So are you saying its the added electrolyte movement that responsible for the added efficiency. Many guys have had cells that have had tons of e-lytes movements (pumps... ) and that did not prove to do anything for efficiency. :confused:

[Roland Jacques]

The active surface area of the plates is 4" x 3" and Each plate only has one hole in it. The hole swaps ends with every plate so there is never a straight shot for the current to take all the way through the electrolyzer without having to pass through another plate. The final outlet is on the top and the return inlet is on the bottom. There are a few other details I should get permission to share before I give up all the design features, but what I've said so far isn't anything new. Another friend of mine was pursuing the same basic design a couple of years ago and he was having good results as well, but then he got married. That put a kink in his experimenting.

Looking back maybe this is the key point to this design.

[IM2L844]

I want to know if i understand the goal of this horizontal idea, Please correct me where I'm wrong.

So is the basic idea here is to have More bubbles between the plates? Slower movement of the bubbles = more bubbles in the gap= less water and electrolyte ( less resistance) for the current to pass throughI don't follow your logic, but the goal is to reduce current leakage by having the holes in each successive plate as far apart from one another as possible. The convection effect precludes the necessity of wasting more energy on a pump. It is pure speculation, on my part, that this convection helps remove the bubbles from the surface of the plates thus reducing the chances of side reactions produced as a result of "bubble overpotential". I'm not making any specific claims in particular. I was just sharing ideas.

EDIT: You seem to have realized the goal. Sorry, we must have posted at the same time.

[Helz_McFugly]

well the reason mine is making more is because I made a dry e-lyzer out of a wet e-lyzer. they were 6"x3" plates with 2 holes that held the plates together. one in the center top and one in the center bottom, so making into a dry like that left alot of room at the top. I didnt have a hole at the bottom left and top right like it should have but it still work fine. but cutting them in half and setting them up the way I have them now uses all surface area and doesnt leave any e-lyte solution sitting in one spot, its always flowing in kind of a rotation.

the pic on the left is how it was. the one on the right is how it is now.
http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1368&stc=1&d=1254758175

[biggy boy]

well the reason mine is making more is because I made a dry e-lyzer out of a wet e-lyzer. they were 6"x3" plates with 2 holes that held the plates together. one in the center top and one in the center bottom, so making into a dry like that left alot of room at the top. I didnt have a hole at the bottom left and top right like it should have but it still work fine. but cutting them in half and setting them up the way I have them now uses all surface area and doesnt leave any e-lyte solution sitting in one spot, its always flowing in kind of a rotation.

the pic on the left is how it was. the one on the right is how it is now.
http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1368&stc=1&d=1254758175

Wouldn't that big hole in the middle cause current to leak straight through?
You could block the big center hole with a piece of curtain material and just use the small hole. You could leave the big hole open on the top plate for the HHO to exit!

[Helz_McFugly]

its just a test e-lyzer anyhow because its all the SS I had. I had been running a wet cell for the longest and decieded to make a dry cell out of it just to do it untill my 9x9 plates get here. but good point.

[biggy boy]

its just a test e-lyzer anyhow because its all the SS I had. I had been running a wet cell for the longest and decieded to make a dry cell out of it just to do it untill my 9x9 plates get here. but good point.

That's what I admire about you Helz!
You don't let anything get in the way of your testing and experimenting. Good for you Man:cool:

[IM2L844]

3" x 3"? That's pretty small. You need to name it the Jenna Jameson because that little thing puts out.

[Helz_McFugly]

well soon Ill have a 9 incher. who ever said size doesnt matter had a small one. e-lyzer that is. :p

[IM2L844]

I guess I need to order some Extenze.

[biggy boy]

I guess I need to order some Extenze.

Typo? Don't you mean "Depends"!! the adult diapers?

[IM2L844]

Har-dee-har-har!

[biggy boy]

Don't mean to be a pain Im2L844
Do you have any more info on your friends Horizontal?
Maybe a video?

Please!

[IM2L844]

No...he was supposed to let me know, but he's a busy guy and I haven't heard from him. I have his cell number, but I don't want to bug him about it. He also said he would send me some plates. If he actually does, I will get some serious broad spectrum testing done on video my damn self.

[Helz_McFugly]

Here is the horizontal Jenna Jameson cell torn apart.
http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1373&stc=1&d=1255034091

[Roland Jacques]

I have been advising a friend of mine on his new horizontal design and last night he sent me some data that blew me away. These are preliminary test results with only 30 grams of NaOH per 1.5 gal. distilled water. The implication is he could add yet another cell with increased electrolyte concentration which would improve efficiency even further. I expect my friend will open source his design because there are always plenty of people who will pay the designer to build it for them whether they have the information available to do it themselves or not. Anyway, I was so impressed, I thought I would share it with you guys. Here are the preliminary test results:
http://www.nicksrealm.com/images/ss.jpg
See how easy it is, Richard, to supply some simple data?

Any updates?

Man I'm still trying to understand how the plate conditioning could cause 1.33 volts per cell numbers. :confused: I hope you can confirm some of this info soon. I cant help thinking that you will find out that his volt meter was off. But I hope I'm wrong.