Very confused about HHO

[canpower]

Hello everyone,
I'm new here, so please forgive me if I have broken any rules by posting this here!

Recently, I became aware of the possibility to create hydrogen gas via a simple process of submerging 2 stainless steel electrodes into water which contains some baking soda, and simply attaching the 12V battery of your car to these electrodes to create hydrogen gas, which is then simply fed into the air intake of the engine above the PCV valve to boost the vehicles fuel efficiency immensly, such as the one shown on this link below:

http://www.hydrogencar-directory.info/Hydrogen_Fuel_Car_Kits.html

I thought this was great, as I am an electronics tech, and fully aware of how to build my own projects if need be, so I decided to look further into it. (and I own a gas guzzling minivan, and am not a fan of the world situation)

This is when it became REALLY confusing!!

The more I read the MORe I became confused.

At first, it seemed that the plan was simple, you just attach the power from the batter to the electrodes in a container of water and baking soda, hook up an output tube, connect it to the engine, and voila, instant fuel savings!

When I looked further into it, I first found that there were TONS of skeptics that said you couldn't even MAKE hydrogen gas in this method, it was impossible, or we would ALL be doing it!

So, I did a simple small experiment, I made a couple coils of stainless steel wire, submerged them into a test tube, filled it with water and a bit of baking soda, then connected the power. Instantly, when I connected the 12V 10A DC power supply, I observed the tiny bubbles rising from the coils, so I thought, hey, this is promising, so I capped the test tube off with a solder sucker bulb from radio shack, sealed it with electrical tape, and awaited it to fill with the hydrogen, IF it WAS truly hydrogen.

You didn't want to see my fiencee's face (nor the cat's!) when the flame I held over the top of the bulb ignited the hydrogen inside, blowing the top off it with a LOUD POP, haha.....I was in the doghouse for awhile...lol.

Anyhow, I NOW know it's TRUE, as I've seen it for my OWN eyes that it IS possible to create hydrogen this way.

The question in my mind now is about actually powering my car with it, and how to produce it properly. MORE confusion.

Immediately, I ran into arguements that you MUST have a PWM circuit "pulsing" the current to the electrodes with a power saving duty cycle, otherwise, the power used to "generate" the hydrogen via the extra load on the alternator, and additional gasoline to do so, otherwise, your saving NOTHING at all.

So, question #1, is this TRUE? MUST one have a pulsed current limited PWM system to make this actually work properly, thus proving the systems avaliable such as in the link i posted above are all bunk?? Or can you just hook it up, with the proper amount of plates in the electrodes to ensure the proper amount of current verses hydrogen is produced?

Next, I read that since I have a Ford windstar minivan, which has oxygen sensors, I MUST build and install an EFIE device in order to "fool" the van's computer into properly mixing the air fuel mixture, as the oxygen sensor would not properly report the correct voltage back to the computer.
So, this is my next question, is THIS statement true, AGAIN proving the simple systems such as the one I display in the above link don't actuaslly work.

OK, so, supposing that I CAN produce my own hydrogen, and actually BOOST the efficiency and milage in my van's engine per tank of gas, and I DO need the PWM and EFIE circuits, then what? WHICH one of the MANY circuits do I utilize and build?

I've read in MANY places that the systems designed by Stanly Myers DON'T work, and NOBODY has EVER been able to get them to work!

More disinformation? Or true? If true, then WHICH circuits DO I build??

I have found some circuits at "Chemelec" that DO look interesting, however the "best" one on their site apparently they are not actually "giving" the schematic for that one away.

I have MANY more questions about all of this, but I'll leave it at this for now, so I don't overwhelm everyone with my questions.

Again, I hope I've posted this in the appropriate area of this forum, and not flogged a dead horse by asking the same questions you've probably heard from newbies to all this a million times, but I've gotten to the point now where I actually have WAY TOO MUCH information, and need some resolution about what info is actually valid, and worth persuing as a viable means to make this project work, I really don't have the energy or money to waste on projects that don't work, or "sorta" work, I need to focus on something that is proved worthy of building, and "actually" works!

I'm sure one of you guys out there started off down the same path as me, and wished you had someone to guide you, I've always been one to learn from other people's mistakes, I make enough of my own as it is!
Thanks,
Chris ;)

[Helz_McFugly]

yea I think we all started where you are. Ill answer your questions in basic terms so you can get started doing more research.


question #1, is this TRUE? MUST one have a pulsed current limited PWM system to make this actually work properly, thus proving the systems avaliable such as in the link i posted above are all bunk?? Or can you just hook it up, with the proper amount of plates in the electrodes to ensure the proper amount of current verses hydrogen is produced?


yes & no. A PWM is the best way to go becaause you can mix your electrolytes to where they should be for the greatest efficiency and control current with the PWM. OR, you can control your current with the mixture of electrolytes, starting low and adding to make the water more conductive. this is the less efficient way of doing it but it does work.


Next, I read that since I have a Ford windstar minivan, which has oxygen sensors, I MUST build and install an EFIE device in order to "fool" the van's computer into properly mixing the air fuel mixture, as the oxygen sensor would not properly report the correct voltage back to the computer.
So, this is my next question, is THIS statement true, AGAIN proving the simple systems such as the one I display in the above link don't actuaslly work.


using HHO makes your 02 sensors think there is to much 02 in the exhaust causing your computer to see to lean of a burn thus adding more fuel and lowering your MPG's. So yes, you muct trick your ECM. there are many ways to do it.
And yes, that website you linked is a scam, there are lots of them. the biggest and most well known is water4gas.com and that thing you posted is the exact same thing.


OK, so, supposing that I CAN produce my own hydrogen, and actually BOOST the efficiency and milage in my van's engine per tank of gas, and I DO need the PWM and EFIE circuits, then what? WHICH one of the MANY circuits do I utilize and build?


this is why "everyone isnt doing it" its not really a user friendly type thing. you have to have an understanding of what going on and you ahve to be pretty mechanically inclined and have basic understanding for electricity. 9 out of 10 people that drive a car dont meet that criteria. Even if you had the most user friendly system installed on your car for you it still take a bit knowledge to maintain it.


More disinformation? Or true? If true, then WHICH circuits DO I build??

It works. I dont sell or promote any products and I can tell you it works.
as far as which one you should build. start out with a basic system. this is an ever growing technology, the bad part about it is there are so many people trying to debunk it and make everyone think its a scam it hard to weed through what to build, buy, or ignore. Thats what this forum is for. stick around, ask questions, follow threads just not the wrong ones.

welcome to the forum
good luck

[ridelong]

If you can build stuff from a schematic, I designed a temperature feedback PWM.

The link is http://www.mikecramer.com/images/tempheater.jpg

The parts list is on this site. It's on the thread: Temperatuer feedback pwm toward the end of the thread.

People seemed to have trouble making this circuit.

I have been running this circuit for over 1 year, and it's great.

It runs the gen full throttle until it gets to the temperature you set. Then it pulse width modulates the power to keep the gen temp constant. So you generate the highest amount of hho, and keep your gen from overheating.

Good luck

Russ

[Philldpapill]

Wow, Russ! You say this is stable? I've tried my hand at using the temperature in a feedback loop to control the current, but I always have stability problems in mine. I haven't had a chance to fully look over your circuit, but I assume this is some kind of analog PID controller? I've tried implementing it with a microcontroller, but like I said - the system is too unstable. I suppose better tuning would be needed.

I'll have to look over this. Very nice!

EDIT: What FETs are you using in that? Does the HHO gen cycle on and off? I don't see any sort of PWM control of it...

[canpower]

Thanks Helz_McFugly, ridelong & Philldpapill for your reply and information.

I am able to build circuits from a schematic only, so I'll check my supply box, and see if I have all the stuff to build that recommended circuit, and if so, give it a whirl, and see what happens. I'm pretty sure I already have all those parts required.

Other than this circuit, what PWM circuit would you recommend as a "basic" system to start off with?

I don't want to mess around trying to calculate electrolyes, I would rather just build a circuit as long as it's not too overly complicated to see how it works out.

Does someone have a suitible circuit for an EFIE that would work with my 1999 ford windstar minivan? I'm assuming a circuit like this simply goes between the O2 sensor on the manifold, (cut the return line and place the unit in between the computer and sensor) and the van's computer?

What about the actual electrodes? Should I use plates, or steel tubes? What are the recommended guidelines for how much current draw and hydrogen production I should go by? Is there a COMPLETE system encompassing everything that "most" people are using right now? (Schematics and electrode designs)

My engine light has been on for about a year now as it is, lol, I went as far as to have the computer hooked up to the van to read the code, and it showed the O2 sensor as bad, so maybe it needs replacing as it is, or maybe the EFIE circuit will actually repair the issue, reporting the correct voltage back to the computer as maybe the sensor is just getting old and sloppy, and not returning favorable data to the computer anymore, I heard that's a common issue with those sensors.

If I can obtain a bit of guidance, and a "proven working" set of schematics for both the EFIE and the PWM circuit, then I could build a working prototype, and improve on it from there onwards, but there's no sense in reinventing the wheel, and spending a year researching everything that others have already done if it can be helped, so I would REALLY appreciate it if someone could bring me up to speed, so I'm current with the current "working technology" at hand. Perhaps after I reach that point, and can do some serious research and experimentation, I'll be able to return some contributions to the group one day in the near future.

Also, one of my other questions was about the electrolyte.

Again, I was led to believe that a simple shot of baking soda in some water was good enough, until I started reading, and found out about all the complex electolytes people are using.

Will good old baking soda work just fine with a PWM system? Or do I have to use Lye or something else? Additionally, must the electrolyte be replenished, or dumped and refilled with fresh electrolye peroidically? If so, when and how?

Thanks again for your info and guidance, it is mush appreciated!

Chris ;)

[canpower]

yea I think we all started where you are. Ill answer your questions in basic terms so you can get started doing more research.



yes & no. A PWM is the best way to go becaause you can mix your electrolytes to where they should be for the greatest efficiency and control current with the PWM. OR, you can control your current with the mixture of electrolytes, starting low and adding to make the water more conductive. this is the less efficient way of doing it but it does work.



using HHO makes your 02 sensors think there is to much 02 in the exhaust causing your computer to see to lean of a burn thus adding more fuel and lowering your MPG's. So yes, you muct trick your ECM. there are many ways to do it.
And yes, that website you linked is a scam, there are lots of them. the biggest and most well known is water4gas.com and that thing you posted is the exact same thing.



this is why "everyone isnt doing it" its not really a user friendly type thing. you have to have an understanding of what going on and you ahve to be pretty mechanically inclined and have basic understanding for electricity. 9 out of 10 people that drive a car dont meet that criteria. Even if you had the most user friendly system installed on your car for you it still take a bit knowledge to maintain it.



It works. I dont sell or promote any products and I can tell you it works.
as far as which one you should build. start out with a basic system. this is an ever growing technology, the bad part about it is there are so many people trying to debunk it and make everyone think its a scam it hard to weed through what to build, buy, or ignore. Thats what this forum is for. stick around, ask questions, follow threads just not the wrong ones.

welcome to the forum
good luck

By the way, how do I know which threads here are the WRONG ones? Shouldn't people posting crap here be kicked and banned, to preserve the integrity of building the "valid" technology up and discovering/proving what REALLY works?

I'll NEVER know what are the WRONG ones unless someone TELLS me...LOL
;)

[Helz_McFugly]

HA. youll know the bad eggs because the people who are logical will be on them like wolves on sheep and youll see it. the Mods on this forum are eather asleep or jsut dont care becaue we can rip someone up one side and down the other and no Mods will step in. which is one reason I like this forum.

do some searches on how to install efie's, build electrolizers and PWm's. youtube has alot of good videos of systems working. thats a good place to start, jsut dont get cought in the mason jar guys. go with the dry cell system. go to youtube and type in hho dry cell. hundrds of vids. learn as many as you can and see how they work. thats a good start.

[canpower]

HA. youll know the bad eggs because the people who are logical will be on them like wolves on sheep and youll see it. the Mods on this forum are eather asleep or jsut dont care becaue we can rip someone up one side and down the other and no Mods will step in. which is one reason I like this forum.

do some searches on how to install efie's, build electrolizers and PWm's. youtube has alot of good videos of systems working. thats a good place to start, jsut dont get cought in the mason jar guys. go with the dry cell system. go to youtube and type in hho dry cell. hundrds of vids. learn as many as you can and see how they work. thats a good start.

That's the problem, I've DONE all of that, for the past week, I've been obsessed with downloading and collecting schematics, plans, and info on HHO setups and devices, and like I say, NOW I'm more confused than EVER!

I have gathered quite a few schematics for both PWM and EFIE circuits, and because of that, I'm just not sure WHICH ones are the ones to build.

I don't know "which" ones have been tried and tested, especially since some of them are the SAME schematics that one person says works great, yet another says don't build it, it doesn't work, and is simply for a starting point to develope your own design from.

In terms of designing my own circuits, I can't really do that, because even the info about what to "design" varies depending on who you talk to. I have no real idea what voltage or current should be applied to the electrolyte, or even the proper operating temperature for the electrolyte, or how many plates or cells equal how much hydrogen output, and how much hydrogen output is enough to really do anything, and also when bulding an EFIE, the exact voltages to what lines in my minivan should be present to fool the computer. I don't want to mess up my vehicle worse than it already is!

This is why I was hoping someone out there would have a "specific" schematic for each type of device I need to build, one that was tried and tested, and a specific suggestion of what the "basic" kit would be to get started.

Also, am I correct in what I assume in how the hydrogen is fed into my fuel injected ford windstar engine, just fed into a "T" connector from the PCV valve? That's what I read, will that just suck the hydrogen into the fuel injectors from that point directly into where it needs to go?

Thanks again!
Chris ;)

[Helz_McFugly]

not sure Ide go into it near the pcv valve. the closer to the throttle body the better, and if you can get upstream of the MAF sensonr that wouldl be good as well. Im going into a vacume line and havent noticed anything different from when it was on the other side of the throttle body but its there so im leaving it.

[canpower]

not sure Ide go into it near the pcv valve. the closer to the throttle body the better, and if you can get upstream of the MAF sensonr that wouldl be good as well. Im going into a vacume line and havent noticed anything different from when it was on the other side of the throttle body but its there so im leaving it.

Thanks Helz_McFugly,
So let me ask bluntly, since nobody is actually jumping on the bandwagon and offering me schematics (except for ridelong, thanks for that by the way!), is there anyone out there who has a setup installed and working well, who will offer me the complete plans and schematics for the circuits and systems they currently have installed and successfully running?

Again, I would greatly appreciate the help, all I'm really after is a basic entry level scaleable system that I can eventually build upon (more cells, or bigger/better cells ect) that will work right away, and offer some kind of immediate noticable gas mileage improvement, is relatively simple in construction and schematic content, and is up and running currently in someone's vehicle without any issues.

I know there are many peices and chunks of info out there, I'm hoping that someone has gathered a system together, proved it working, efficient, and non-problematic, and can provide that already pieced together system of components that work well, rather than me having to start frmo scratch, and try to figure out what works and what doesn't.

That's why I'm here, to find out if someone can give me a definitive answer that there IS a working system I can easily build, and tell me specifically "what" that system is, so I can go ahead and build one!

Thanks
Chris ;)

[Helz_McFugly]

oh yea. plenty. look for users like Buster, cabrera, to many to name. this list is huge. look at cabrera's link on his signiture. eveyone has posted pics and what not showing what they have. mine works jsut fine as well and Im not even using a PWM yet. but Im about to rebuild it bigger with a PWM. man there lots on here. you just have to dig a little. right now im getting 6 MPG gain of a very small system. HHO works. you just have to weed out all the BS that people spread to make it look like a scam. jsut get in the forum and dig around, youll find what youre looking for.

example of a working system: make a dry cell system 6"X6" +nnnnn-nnnnn+ system that produces 2LPM of HHO give or take, It will have a refill tank/bubbler, second bubbler to help remove steam/electrolytes out of the gas, a third containor/scrubber to remove any steam left in the gas. a flash back arrestor, and draws the liest amount of amps by using a PWM. use efie's on your 02 sensors and MAP sensor, port it in right before the throttle body.

this would work on a engine 3 liters or less pretty well.

Im going to sleepy town now

[Philldpapill]

canpower, I'm currently designing a PWM for Helz. When complete, it will be able to handle 150A, will be able to apply (virtually) a variable voltage directly to the HHO - rather than current pulses, and have a readout of the current and voltage. The price is looking to be around $80. I'll probably end up make a few of these, so if you'd like one for your final design, I'll make one. Once these are built, I'll try and make the microcontroller code and design as open-source as I can, but the price of parts will still be around the same...

Or, you can always go on ebay and get a cheapo PWM to get you started. Don't get the china knock-off's though. Customer service with those guys will be a b.itch.

[crb]

Try repairing your CEL first, after that repair, I'd move on to the next step.

crb

[redrat100]

Welcome to the forum Can. Another scam to be aware of is the Gas4free plan. Don't waste the $94 US to download their instructions. I immediately built three of these taking them at their word. Do a search on this site for Gas4free or Redrat100 to find out more of what I went through.

[canpower]

OK,
due to the overwhelming response and influx of schematics (haha, sorry, couldn't resist the chance to be my old sarcastic self, hehe, sorry ;)-), I've decided to just design my own mosfet driven PWM circuit, probably using a mosfet driver IC (UCC37322D - SINGLE 9-A HIGH SPEED LOW SIDE MOSFET DRIVER WITH ENABLE) and driving a power mosfet of some type.

I'm not quite sure what the specs of the mosfet should be, as I'm STILL not quite sure what the requirements of the circuit I'm building are, such as the amount of amps and volts to subject the electrolye to. I'm "assuming" (we all know what the word ASSUME means! lol) that it should be low voltage 12V at high amp pulses, but I'm not sure exactly what "amperage" the pulses should be at, both for the purpose of properly stimulating the electrolyte, as well as to not cause more power consumption from the system powering it than I should be, thus rendering it too inneficient. Any suggestions?

I have a number of mosfet and IGBT devices on hand in my parts cabinet, such as these:

- IRF-730 -2A 400V
- FQPF18N50V2 500V 18A - N-Channel MOSFET
- BUZ11-30A--50V--0.040 Ohm--N-Channel Power MOSFET
- NGP8203N --Ignition IGBT 20 A, 400 V, N-Channel TO-220
- FQA85N06--100AMP 60V N-Channel QFET TO-3P
- HUF75337P3-75A--55V--0.014 Ohm--N-Channel UltraFET Power MOSFET
- HRF3205-100A--55V--0.008 Ohm--N-Channel--PowerMOSFET
- FGL60N100BNTDTU-IGBT -NPT TRENCH- N-CH 1000V 60A TO-264

So which one of these devices is the best choice to build a PWM design around?

If what I "assume" is correct, I need a device that can handle as much current as possible, while not worrying so much about the voltage, such as the FQA85N06--100AMP 60V N-Channel QFET, as most standard alternators are around 100 amps as it is, so at worst, if the FET was subjected to all the alternator could throw at it, it would still survive. Is my thinking logical and on the right track?

All I "really" need to know is like I've said, what voltage, amperage, duty cycle and type/form of pulse should be applied to the electrolyte to give me an idea of what I'm designing in the forst place, otherwise, I have no idea "what" I"m designing...LOL.

Maybe I might end up designing a simple, cheap and cost effective design that anyone can easily build, with minimum parts, minimum assembly time, than what I can curently seem to find out there.

That's why I keep asking for schematics, I seem to either just be finding either way TOO simple and under developed circuits that are just basic 555 pulse train PWM circuits (which I fear might not be "sturdy" enough for the job) or REALLY complex and unproven circuits, such as the one that was suggested here in this thread, which there was already a debate about if it would work, and was admittedly difficult to build for some people.

I hope someone out there can suggest a starting point so I can finally get started building something, I'm excited at the prospect of seeing a working system in action.

Isn't ANYONE out there willing to FULLY disclose what they have operating currently in their vehicles that is working and proved reliable, stable and is saving them gas money?

Maybe the reason WHY nobody is disclosing this to me is because NOBODY yet HAS a working system to begin with?

Not wanting to ruffle any feathers out there, but I just want people to know I'm serious about committing myself to this, if it is a worthwhile endeavor to commit to, I just need a little "proof" from someone that I'm not wasing my time on this.

Thanks in advance for your help!!

Chris ;)

[canpower]

example of a working system: make a dry cell system 6"X6" +nnnnn-nnnnn+ system that produces 2LPM of HHO give or take, It will have a refill tank/bubbler, second bubbler to help remove steam/electrolytes out of the gas, a third containor/scrubber to remove any steam left in the gas. a flash back arrestor, and draws the liest amount of amps by using a PWM. use efie's on your 02 sensors and MAP sensor, port it in right before the throttle body.

this would work on a engine 3 liters or less pretty well.

Im going to sleepy town now

Thanks HELZ, sorry, I didn't see this post until AFTER I posted my last post, my browser must not have refreshed or something, sorry.
That's useful info. I don't expect someone to supply me with a PWM circuit for their system if their not even USING one...LOL
Yhanks again,
Chris ;)

[Helz_McFugly]

how would you like your proof? :D
you can ask and get an answer from poeople on here who arent lieing to you and take their word for it or you can ask for a video but there are no videos long enough that has no edits in it so that really proves nothing, again unless you take their word for it. SO here is what Im planning on doing to prove that boosting with HHO does work in a video that shouldnt be more then 5 minutes long. Ive seen a couple other people do it but they didnt do it right.

I am going to make a bench HHO system that produces about 2LPM of HHO and try and get it to run at about 9 MMW or better.
Im going to run this system off the power output a power generator creats and feed the HHO thats produced into the generators intake. Im not trying to creat OU so dont get me wrong. I have a 24hp genarator. I have disconnected the fuel line and replace it with a clear line and made marks on it to show how much fuel is being used so it can be timed.

Ill run it wihtout HHO to show how much fuel it uses in X seconds
Ill run it WITH HHO on to show how much fuel it uses in the same amount of seconds as the first test.

so simple. NO clue why no one has done it successfully yet. but Im gunna give it a shot.

Hows that sound?
it would sure shut up a bunch of these people who swear on their lives that HHO is a scam. no two ways about it. It does nothing. period.
I know it works, so do alot of people. I just want to show solid proof that it does. no tricks, no having to take my word that it does. just a nice simple test to show it does increase efficiency in an I.C.E...

[canpower]

how would you like your proof? :D
you can ask and get an answer from poeople on here who arent lieing to you and take their word for it or you can ask for a video but there are no videos long enough that has no edits in it so that really proves nothing, again unless you take their word for it. SO here is what Im planning on doing to prove that boosting with HHO does work in a video that shouldnt be more then 5 minutes long. Ive seen a couple other people do it but they didnt do it right.

I am going to make a bench HHO system that produces about 2LPM of HHO and try and get it to run at about 9 MMW or better.
Im going to run this system off the power output a power generator creats and feed the HHO thats produced into the generators intake. Im not trying to creat OU so dont get me wrong. I have a 24hp genarator. I have disconnected the fuel line and replace it with a clear line and made marks on it to show how much fuel is being used so it can be timed.

Ill run it wihtout HHO to show how much fuel it uses in X seconds
Ill run it WITH HHO on to show how much fuel it uses in the same amount of seconds as the first test.

so simple. NO clue why no one has done it successfully yet. but Im gunna give it a shot.

Hows that sound?
it would sure shut up a bunch of these people who swear on their lives that HHO is a scam. no two ways about it. It does nothing. period.
I know it works, so do alot of people. I just want to show solid proof that it does. no tricks, no having to take my word that it does. just a nice simple test to show it does increase efficiency in an I.C.E...

Hi Hels,
I really hope you didn't write that last post because I've offended you in any way, i certainly had no intention on doing so, so if I did, I apologize for that.

I'm simply trying to get someone, ANYONE to disclose to me a "working" system that I can replicate, and not have to go through ALL the legwork that's already been done by others. Where I come from, this is called a "developement team", and I think we should organize a group of dedicated individuals on here (if it doesn't already exist) to somply create and post an easily built system that works.

While I fully believe in freedom of speech, and value other people's opinions, I don't think a forum like this is the place for people to be posting garbage, or opposing opinions about how HHO is fake or BS, I personally believe a forum of this type should be used to share knowledge amongst the people who ARE aware HHO works, and a team effort between those people be implemented to spread awareness, and the method in which ordinary individuals with a bit of tech savvy skills can build and utilize this technology for themselves.

I think if people are willing to do their homework, and spend the effort (and money) to build such a system for their gas guzzling vehicles, (like you and I) and it REALLY DOES work, then there should be NO problem obtaining the information on how to do so easily, (especially from other like minded individuals in a place like this!!) and people out there who have already taken this journey to develope and build a device way before I have, should already have this technology up and running in their vehicles, and be willing and able to show others what they have installed and running already in their vehicles.

I appreciate your willingness to make a video and upload it for all to see, but really, all I need are schematics showing me what system is up and running, the specs for the electrodes being used, as well as the specs and volume of electrolyte being used, including the hookup instructions. I don't want you to feel you have to "prove" anything to me, I just want to know what works, and be able to replicate it!

Thanks for your willingness to help out, please just know that I have no intention of being offensive or accusing anyone of this being BS, I've seen first hand hydrogen being produced, I've done it, so I know it's possible, now I just want to know the "specifics" on how to ustilize it effectively!

By the way, at what "frequency" should a PWM system be running at, and what off/on duty cycle? I've seen many differing frequency designs, with no real explaination as to WHY they "are" the frequency they are. Can someone please explain what the optimal PWM frequency should be, what the on/off duty cycle should be, and the calculations and explaination as to why it should be running that way? That would be great!
Thanks!!

Chris ;)

[Helz_McFugly]

no no. dont worry about offending me. Im an A-hole anyways and I enjoy it, ask any girl about their X. . :p

no Ive been planning this test for a while to show these people who keep saying ALL HHO is a scam. I think youll like it.

[Philldpapill]

canpower, can you do your circuit using surface mount components? Can you make your own circuit boards? I have a design that uses some MOSFETs from ST Microelectronics. You can sign up for an account, and get them for free. They are 55Vds, 0.0085(nominal)Rds_on.

They main thing to look for, is a mosfet with a very low Rds_on, and a low gate capacitance. The UCC27322 driver is an excellent driver from TI. In fact, I use it in nearly all my power designs. However, it does have a tendancy to explode - for totally unknown reasoning to me.

I can send you my EAGLE cad files which has the circuit schematics and board layout in it, if you'd like.

[ridelong]

Philldpapill,

The circuit I posted is electrically a "P", not a "PID". Essentially, a comparator that runs full blast until the temp signal from the LM324 reaches the pot voltage "setpoint", then the comparator turns off the power fet. When the temp signal falls below the setpoint, it turns the power fet on again. This action cycles the power fet on and off according to temperature.

I used a stainless tube submerged in the electrolyte with a LM34 for a probe. The ss acts like an integral loop component to stabilize the circuit. Therefore the circuit acts like a "PI" loop. It is very stable.

The fet is a Digi-Key P/N IRL1404ZPBF-ND. The circuit is designed to control 30 amps continuous.

Russ

[ridelong]

canpower,

I would pick the HRF3205. The .008 on resistance would allow you to draw 27 amps at a 6 watt dissipation in the device. This would allow you to run fanless with a decent heatsink.

Russ

[canpower]

canpower, can you do your circuit using surface mount components? Can you make your own circuit boards? I have a design that uses some MOSFETs from ST Microelectronics. You can sign up for an account, and get them for free. They are 55Vds, 0.0085(nominal)Rds_on.

They main thing to look for, is a mosfet with a very low Rds_on, and a low gate capacitance. The UCC27322 driver is an excellent driver from TI. In fact, I use it in nearly all my power designs. However, it does have a tendancy to explode - for totally unknown reasoning to me.

I can send you my EAGLE cad files which has the circuit schematics and board layout in it, if you'd like.

Hi Philldpapill,

Thank you so much for your generocity and kindness, I really appreciate the helping hand. And also thank you ridelong for your very useful info & suggestions, very helpful, thank you ;)

Unfortunately, at this point in my life, I am in between housing moves, and am working out of boxes, and only have a small area to work with (VERY small...lol) and I do not currently have the equipment on hand to fabricate SMT prototypes. I am actually PACE certified (PACE SMT solder equipment courses) and have worked in the electronic assembly and manufacturing field doing electronic assembly, running wave solder machines, pick & place machines, ect... for many years (not now, in the past, thank God! LOL)

I also used to etch my own double sided copper clad boards at one time, using the UV photoresist technique, but gave that up years ago. Too messy!

When you drive your mosfet via the UCC27322, do you put a V-gate resistor between the driver and the mosfet gate, or just drive it direct out of the 2 outputs of the UCC27322? Do you connect BOTH of the UCC27322's outputs to the gate of the mosfet, or only one, and leave the other floating?

I'm assuming you at least put a 1uF electrolytic and a 0.1uF ceramic cap close to the UCC27322's output as the datasheet suggest, from the output to ground, as close as possible it says, don't you?

Do you use a DC bypass cap between the output of the UCC27322 and the mosfet's gate? I've seen this in a few schematics, and have wondered why it is there, and I also wondered how you are generally interfacing the UCC27322 to the mosfet, as you say you regularly use them in your designs.

What do you use to drive the input of the UCC27322? Just a 555 timer circuit configured to your needs?

I also wondered a bit about the UCC27322's datasheet where it states the input to the UCC27322, it is a "bit" obscure in it's description of the required input voltages.

It states the UCC27322 input voltage to input pin 2 as "" -5 to 6V "" OR VDD +0.3V, and then further confuses me with the statement "WHICH EVER IS LARGER".

Does this mean you have to either power the input with a 5V logic pulse for example, (falls within the -5 to 6V recommendation) OR lets say if VDD is 12V, then you can also power it optionally with a 12.3V input signal??

Usually I'm pretty good about reading these things, been doing it all my life, but it's always been hammered into my head that rail voltages are NOT to exceed supply voltages, so I'm a bit confused. I hope you can clarify this for me. I hope I'm not just asking a totally OBVIOUS question, and look foolish in doing so, I think I'm slipping in my old age of 42....LOL.

I would REALLY appreciate your Eagle cad files, but I guess I'll have to install Eagle again, I've been thinking about doing so anyhow, but keep toiling with whether or not to install Protel instead, as it's what I've always used in the past.

By the way, I've asked this question and not had an answer, what frequencies should the PWM be running at, and why? Is there a pulsed duty cycle also, like a certain on/off waveform of a certain frequency? Such as a pulsed 44Khz waveform for example. If so, what is the duty cycle, what are the frequencies??

Thanks again guys, I DO appreciate all your help!

;)

[biggy boy]

not sure Ide go into it near the pcv valve. the closer to the throttle body the better, and if you can get upstream of the MAF sensonr that wouldl be good as well

Helz Don't you mean after the MAF, down stream? If you put it before the MAF and the little glowing heater used by the MAF it may go BOOM:p

[Helz_McFugly]

details details, im sure he knew what I meant. ill post my "Helzish to English" decoder sheet later.

[ridelong]

I did a lot of testing of PWM freq's, duty cycle. The freq (100hz-100khz) makes no difference as far as I could tell.

I personally like to run low frequencys (100hz) because the electronics are easier to design, and the FET switching losses are reduced.

The only thing a straight PWM is good for is reducing current in a HHO gen.

Russ

[canpower]

I did a lot of testing of PWM freq's, duty cycle. The freq (100hz-100khz) makes no difference as far as I could tell.

I personally like to run low frequencys (100hz) because the electronics are easier to design, and the FET switching losses are reduced.

The only thing a straight PWM is good for is reducing current in a HHO gen.

Russ

So the frequency is meaningless really? I find that hard to believe. I thought resonant frequency was the reason "why" this whole thing worked properly in the first place. Could it be that the reason why none of the frequencies you used made any difference is because none of them were the "right" frequencies, or in other words some kind of "resonant frequency" to something.

Just wondering.

Philldpapill, are you going to reply to my questions I've asked you? I would really appreciate your input as you've already built this using the UCC27322.

I'm ready to build something, but just sitting here doing nothing, because I have TOO MUCH info now, and I just can't decide on what circuit is worth building to start out with. And NOBODY will disclose the PWM and EFIE circuits they are using.

[ridelong]

I did hours of testing, and there is no resonant frequency below 500 Khz.

I did read that water is resonant near the ghz freq's that microwave ovens operate, but that would make the water boil.

I've read about the resonance that makes super generation of HHO, but I couldn't find it. I think if there was a resonant frequency, all of the work on this site would of found it by now.

The PWM units sold today are for current limiting. Also, PWMs won't stop the current increase as the electrolyte gets warmer without current or temperature feedback.

As for a current feedback pwm, I also designed this: www.mikecramer.com/images/ifeedpwm.jpg
It will maintain the setpoint current as the electrolyte warms up.

Russ

[canpower]

Hi Philldpapill,

Thank you so much for your generocity and kindness, I really appreciate the helping hand. And also thank you ridelong for your very useful info & suggestions, very helpful, thank you ;)

Unfortunately, at this point in my life, I am in between housing moves, and am working out of boxes, and only have a small area to work with (VERY small...lol) and I do not currently have the equipment on hand to fabricate SMT prototypes. I am actually PACE certified (PACE SMT solder equipment courses) and have worked in the electronic assembly and manufacturing field doing electronic assembly, running wave solder machines, pick & place machines, ect... for many years (not now, in the past, thank God! LOL)

I also used to etch my own double sided copper clad boards at one time, using the UV photoresist technique, but gave that up years ago. Too messy!

When you drive your mosfet via the UCC27322, do you put a V-gate resistor between the driver and the mosfet gate, or just drive it direct out of the 2 outputs of the UCC27322? Do you connect BOTH of the UCC27322's outputs to the gate of the mosfet, or only one, and leave the other floating?

I'm assuming you at least put a 1uF electrolytic and a 0.1uF ceramic cap close to the UCC27322's output as the datasheet suggest, from the output to ground, as close as possible it says, don't you?

Do you use a DC bypass cap between the output of the UCC27322 and the mosfet's gate? I've seen this in a few schematics, and have wondered why it is there, and I also wondered how you are generally interfacing the UCC27322 to the mosfet, as you say you regularly use them in your designs.

What do you use to drive the input of the UCC27322? Just a 555 timer circuit configured to your needs?

I also wondered a bit about the UCC27322's datasheet where it states the input to the UCC27322, it is a "bit" obscure in it's description of the required input voltages.

It states the UCC27322 input voltage to input pin 2 as "" -5 to 6V "" OR VDD +0.3V, and then further confuses me with the statement "WHICH EVER IS LARGER".

Does this mean you have to either power the input with a 5V logic pulse for example, (falls within the -5 to 6V recommendation) OR lets say if VDD is 12V, then you can also power it optionally with a 12.3V input signal??

Usually I'm pretty good about reading these things, been doing it all my life, but it's always been hammered into my head that rail voltages are NOT to exceed supply voltages, so I'm a bit confused. I hope you can clarify this for me. I hope I'm not just asking a totally OBVIOUS question, and look foolish in doing so, I think I'm slipping in my old age of 42....LOL.

I would REALLY appreciate your Eagle cad files, but I guess I'll have to install Eagle again, I've been thinking about doing so anyhow, but keep toiling with whether or not to install Protel instead, as it's what I've always used in the past.

By the way, I've asked this question and not had an answer, what frequencies should the PWM be running at, and why? Is there a pulsed duty cycle also, like a certain on/off waveform of a certain frequency? Such as a pulsed 44Khz waveform for example. If so, what is the duty cycle, what are the frequencies??

Thanks again guys, I DO appreciate all your help!

;)

Philldpapill, I don't mean to sound like a nag, but I would REALLY appreciate an answer to the questions I've asked you about the UCC27322 usage in your circuit in the post above that you did not address with a reply as of yet.

Your experience with the IC is greatly respected, and I'm waiting to hear back from you about how you used it "before" I try building a prototype circuit using the UCC27322 IC.

I hope you can take the time to answer the questions, I would truly greatly appreciate it!
Thanks ;)

Chris

[canpower]

Hmmmm.....
looks like I hit another brick wall.

[teepolo]

HA. youll know the bad eggs because the people who are logical will be on them like wolves on sheep and youll see it. the Mods on this forum are eather asleep or jsut dont care becaue we can rip someone up one side and down the other and no Mods will step in. which is one reason I like this forum.

do some searches on how to install efie's, build electrolizers and PWm's. youtube has alot of good videos of systems working. thats a good place to start, jsut dont get cought in the mason jar guys. go with the dry cell system. go to youtube and type in hho dry cell. hundrds of vids. learn as many as you can and see how they work. thats a good start.
Hello,

Can you tell me if there is info on this forum for the "dry cell system"????

Thank you!

Tee!

[Helz_McFugly]

Tons of it. what would you like to know? Ive built a few so far. I'm building a big one right now. Are you looking for blueprints or drawings of how to set the sytem up or build the electrolyzer?

[teepolo]

I am a newbie to HHO so if your able to point me in a direction, it'd be greatly appreciated!!

Tee

[Helz_McFugly]

I would start with youtube. watch some drycells being built. there are lots of videos that show everything from cutting plates, cutting gaskets, end plates.
Here is a basic video on how to build one. start here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DJDKYXmIWM

But watch a few to see how they work and the different ways to build them and what would be best for you.

[biggy boy]

I would start with youtube. watch some drycells being built. there are lots of videos that show everything from cutting plates, cutting gaskets, end plates.
Here is a basic video on how to build one. start here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DJDKYXmIWM

But watch a few to see how they work and the different ways to build them and what would be best for you.

That guys got it "going on" with that happening music!!:p

[biggy boy]

I am a newbie to HHO so if your able to point me in a direction, it'd be greatly appreciated!!

Tee

Have a look at this one!
But do it fast before the sellout pulls it off the net.
Its a good Gen, but I don't recommend the viewing window or the tube filler!!
But it's still has some good info.
I made mine almost exact like his. I fill mine at the bottom instead of the top.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyMA7x2wfV0&feature=PlayList&p=AFE0C21ED792D60B&index=0&playnext=1

And in this one he shows how he assembles the Gen.
But look at it soon before his head explodes, cuz it's been getting really big lately :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im0wJHYR93w&feature=PlayList&p=AFE0C21ED792D60B&index=1

[lhazleton]

Glen,
You know damn well that you're the untimate 'SMACK FAN'!

[lhazleton]

I would start with youtube. watch some drycells being built. there are lots of videos that show everything from cutting plates, cutting gaskets, end plates.
Here is a basic video on how to build one. start here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DJDKYXmIWM

But watch a few to see how they work and the different ways to build them and what would be best for you.

Helz, this is a good video to get the basic idea, but it's not by the great Smackman! Aren't you afraid that Dustin will get upset?:eek: After all, he's the only one that knows what he's doing, right??????????????

[biggy boy]

Glen,
You know damn well that you're the ultimate 'SMACK FAN'!

Ya I have all the Smack souvenir stuff, the big foam hand that says
I'm smack I'm #1. The tee shirt with the slogan RealiZe.
The smack approved hat with logo "I'm with stupid" the arrow points down.
And I have the Smack bobble head doll on may car dash Odd thou it's all in proportion Hummm.....
I have The "I've been Smacked" licence plate frame.
And last but most important I down loaded the very popular
"Hello Smack fans, welcome to Smack land" ring tone on my Cell phone.

I am seriousness I do like Smack, I think he has brought a lot to the HHO community, lots of great ideas and has really worked hard at supporting HHO.
I'm hoping he is just going through a phase right now, and will get back on track. I guess time will tell. So thanks Smack for all you have done up till now!!

[teepolo]

Much, much thanks guys!!!! APPRECIATE it!!!!!

[teepolo]

Ok guys go easy on me seeing i may throw out some dumb questions at first.

Is there a big difference between a jar (HHO) and dry cell??

[Helz_McFugly]

the jar is whats sold on the scam sights. really cheap to make yet they tell you youll double your fuel mileage. NOT HAPPNIN!! its trash. use the jar for target practice. any series of plates that are submurced in wat (be it a jar or a PVC pipe) is unefficient because it loses current on every edge of every plate in the water, and they create alot of heat which is lost energy. dry cells are the most efficient because all edges are sealed off and current is only passed through surface area, so they run cooler and more efficiently. you can play around with wet cells but if its efficiency youre looking for youll want to build a dry cell.