Altercharger possible?

[richard_lyew]

Hello everybody, i have always been amazed at invention of the Turbocharger, because it does something very good from waste. it uses the exhaust gas coming out of a car's engine to turn a turbine wheel that is attached to a compressor that forces more air into the car's intake and combustion chamber for a better burn of fuel and more power.
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/4725/turbodiagram1.th.jpg (http://img44.imageshack.us/i/turbodiagram1.jpg/)

for me this is a very ingenious invention, turning waste into power. very good idea.

i remember one time i was checking out this and wanted to fit my car with one but it was alot of conversion to do this and i just didnt have the time and needed my car to use everyday, but what i did one day was install the turbo in a way that to me was never done before, i fitted the turbo to my air intake like it is normally done in current applications but instead of connecting the turbine side of the turbo to my exhaust system, i used an electric leaf blower to spin that side, so every time i would reach +1000RPM the leaf blower would switch to high speed turning the turbo to make boost.
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/8460/smallturbo.th.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/smallturbo.jpg/)

it was a nice idea but after awhile i took it off as it was noisy and totally impractical but it still worked. that was turning some of the current my car was producing to make boost.
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/8518/internalgate3.th.jpg (http://img3.imageshack.us/i/internalgate3.jpg/)

when i just started this HHO thing i found that the way i was doing it demanded alot of power, more than my alternator could handle, so i bought a high AMP alternator(13VDC@200AMPS). but even so i found that i still needed more so i added a solar panel that would keep the batteries charged. with all that power added i think that was it. there is no other way to add power.

until recently i started to think about transforming power and the way i did with the turbocharger and the leaf blower. so i came up with this theory and i want to make it if its possible, i want to make and Altercharger, a cross between a Alternator and a Turbocharger. the idea is to use the turbine side of a turbocharger to spin an alternator. i want to know if this can be done.
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/8358/turbonator1.th.gif (http://img34.imageshack.us/i/turbonator1.gif/)

i want to know how harder is it to spin an alternator between zero load and maximum load. because if a Altercharger could make 13VDC@50 to 80AMPS that would be a big step for the HHO community. making HHO from wastes exhaust gas. also i want to know if it is easier to turn a 13VDC@50AMP alternator at full load vs turning a 13VCD@100AMP alternator at half load. what are the differences.
also if the exhaust gas coming from the engine cant turn the turbine wheel on the Altercharger, could a turbocharger blowing into it turn it? instead of the exhaust coming directly from the engine.

if there is a way to make HHO from waste(exhaust gas), i would want to do it.


Ladies and Gentleman, i give you the Altercharger!!!!!!!!!!!
if its possible LOL

[richard_lyew]

if this work it will be like the Liger or the Tigon of the HHO community :D

[Helz_McFugly]

a turbocharger is powered by the exhaust gases of the engine whereas a supercharger is belt driven off the crank pulley. What this means is that a turbocharger uses wasted energy to make power which you explained above. The drawback is that you may experience turbo lag, but that usually only happens with larger sized turbos.
Because a supercharger is belt driven, its power is based solely on the engine’s RPM’s. So the faster the motor turns, the quicker it turns the belt, which in turn produces more power. The good thing about this is that there’s no lag whatsoever. The bad thing is that because superchargers “take power to make power” there’s a potential for it to raise your gas bill. If you are wanting to install a "Altercharger" (i.e. supercharger), rather then stick it on the front of the alternator, you might be better off to try and set up a new pully system if you have room to make it turn faster.

"EDIT" total brain fart here. meds havent kicked in yet.

[IM2L844]

I am leaning more in THIS DIRECTION (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2004/session4/2004_deer_kushch.pdf), but a simpler, bolt on, air cooled system. It would work great in the winter, in colder climates.

[Helz_McFugly]

Hell you could ditch the alternator all together with that monster.

[richard_lyew]

http://www.xj-armor.com/images/supercharger_z.jpg

a turbocharger is powered by the exhaust gases of the engine whereas a supercharger is belt driven off the crank pulley. What this means is that a turbocharger uses wasted energy to make power which you explained above. The drawback is that you may experience turbo lag, but that usually only happens with larger sized turbos.
Because a supercharger is belt driven, its power is based solely on the engine’s RPM’s. So the faster the motor turns, the quicker it turns the belt, which in turn produces more power. The good thing about this is that there’s no lag whatsoever. The bad thing is that because superchargers “take power to make power” there’s a potential for it to raise your gas bill. If you are wanting to install a "Altercharger" (i.e. supercharger), rather then stick it on the front of the alternator, you might be better off to try and set up a new pully system if you have room to make it turn faster.


What? did you read and understand the first post completely?

[Helz_McFugly]

no, sorry, I misunderstood it, was reading while on a call and half asleep. my bad. I see what your saying now. reverse the turbo to spin the alternator rather then having it belt driven. yes very good idea. I dont know what the **** I was thinking. I thought you were going to jab a turbo on the front of your alternator. :p but yea I think its a great idea.

edit out that stupid picture I posted. its taking up to much space. again. sorry for the misunderstanding. I think that idea is worth testing

[richard_lyew]

I am leaning more in THIS DIRECTION (http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/deer_2004/session4/2004_deer_kushch.pdf), but a simpler, bolt on, air cooled system. It would work great in the winter, in colder climates.

glad to see someone on topic because Helz was way way off. but yea using your wasted heat or exhaust is a big step.

[Helz_McFugly]

http://www.barber-nichols.com/products/specialty_products/turbo_alternators/default.asp

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/09/tigers_exhaust_.html#more

this is what you meant. gotchu :D

[richard_lyew]

no, sorry, I misunderstood it, was reading while on a call and half asleep. my bad. I see what your saying now. reverse the turbo to spin the alternator rather then having it belt driven. yes very good idea. I dont know what the **** I was thinking. I thought you were going to jab a turbo on the front of your alternator. :p but yea I think its a great idea.

edit out that stupid picture I posted. its taking up to much space. again. sorry for the misunderstanding. I think that idea is worth testing

LOL for awhile there i was worried that big oil had took over the forum and changed my thread so other people saw something diffrent LOL

[richard_lyew]

http://www.barber-nichols.com/products/specialty_products/turbo_alternators/default.asp

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/09/tigers_exhaust_.html#more

this is what you meant. gotchu :D

WOW big come back from your first post Helz :D yes this is what im talking about, nice to see that it have been done before i taught about it. now to build and test one. if my car was turbocharged i would just take off the compressor side and add an alternator LOL

wow this thread is ganna be great

[biggy boy]

i want to know how harder is it to spin an alternator between zero load and maximum load.
if

I stole this from another forum:

An alternator typically takes about 1 HP (horse power) for every 25 amps of power generated. So, a 100 amp alternator will require about 4 HP at full output. Most alternators do not operate at full output for very long.

[Helz_McFugly]

HA, that billybob windmill is priceless. look out pigeons. :p

[biggy boy]

HA, that billybob windmill is priceless. look out pigeons. :p

Squeel like a pig.:p

[richard_lyew]

I stole this from another forum:

An alternator typically takes about 1 HP (horse power) for every 25 amps of power generated. So, a 100 amp alternator will require about 4 HP at full output. Most alternators do not operate at full output for very long.

thanks for sharing man,. BTW nice pic LOL

i might not have to build one thou if this is not too expensive
http://www.gas-turbines.com/ta30-nt-xx/index.html

[richard_lyew]

WOW i didnt even checked to see if it existed before i made the thread
http://www.bowmanpower.com/

i think this thread is ganna come down to Thermoelectric Generator or Turbo Generator.
the question now is which is best when it comes to cooling, lag time, efficiency, cost, etc......

WOW i can add MORE POWER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[richard_lyew]

WOW this guy was on it too but he didn't have HHO in the equation.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=222139

[Mika]

I've been thinking about this too. Maybe it would be better at the back of the car where exhaust gases are cooler and air flow under the car would help cooling the alternator? Also some kind of voltage controlled valve might be useful, only passing exhaust through the alternator when the voltage drops under certain level.

[richard_lyew]

thinking about it, i could install both. why not?. getting 200AMPS from waste to make more HHO mmmmmmmmmmmmm :rolleyes:

hey phill i cant see you yet, tell me why this wont work.

[Helz_McFugly]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:tHLgs_BA2_l-eM:http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/9/16/128660498159844805.jpg

Dude I dont think Phill is here to prove Ideas wrong. Hes here to give his educated perspective on things and to help. claim stuff ya refuse to prove and expect frustation. which is very amusing, I must admit. I dont know about everyone else but I learned alot in that thread alone. :)

[richard_lyew]

WOW these people touch on it all already
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthread.php/turbo-alternator-9447.html

[richard_lyew]

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:tHLgs_BA2_l-eM:http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2008/9/16/128660498159844805.jpg

Dude I dont think Phill is here to prove Ideas wrong. Hes here to give his educated perspective on things and to help. claim stuff ya refuse to prove and expect frustation. which is very amusing, I must admit. I dont know about everyone else but I learned alot in that thread alone. :)

man i was just asking him for his input, i just wanted his take on all this

[Philldpapill]

Richard, you weren't asking for my input. You were trying to incite some more drama, and I think that's pretty clear to everyone. You might want to edit out that post...

Also, for the record, I'm not some "know it all" about everything. I'm an electrical engineer, not a mechanical engineer. My mechanical knowledge isn't that amazing. However, if I DO offer some advice or critique of something, it's because I'm 100% sure of something. I don't talk out of my a.s.s.

[richard_lyew]

Richard, you weren't asking for my input. You were trying to incite some more drama, and I think that's pretty clear to everyone. You might want to edit out that post...

Also, for the record, I'm not some "know it all" about everything. I'm an electrical engineer, not a mechanical engineer. My mechanical knowledge isn't that amazing. However, if I DO offer some advice or critique of something, it's because I'm 100% sure of something. I don't talk out of my a.s.s.

not editing it ever, you will have to just live with it. but yea i wish you could give some input on this man.

does this site have a mechanical engineer version of phill? i need all the input i can get on this topic please.

[Helz_McFugly]

you should take this Idea over to www.fuel-saver.org,
you could run any of the many parisitic things, that are running off your crankshaft, with a turbo. Ide say you would get better over all efficiency by running your alt. on a turbo and then running your power stearing pump, cooling fans, maybe a smog pump, all off electric motors thus taking the load off the crankshaft and using exhaust to run them. Its a HUGE job to install a turbo on a car that didnt come factory with one. Ive done it twice. Just sayin

[richard_lyew]

you should take this Idea over to www.fuel-saver.org,
you could run any of the many parisitic things, that are running off your crankshaft, with a turbo. Ide say you would get better over all efficiency by running your alt. on a turbo and then running your power stearing pump, cooling fans, maybe a smog pump, all off electric motors thus taking the load off the crankshaft and using exhaust to run them. Its a HUGE job to install a turbo on a car that didnt come factory with one. Ive done it twice. Just sayin

i think a turbo charger and a turbo alternator installed on 2 cars of the same make and model will behave totally different, 1. the car with the turbo will boost make from the turbo compressor forcing more air into the intake. 2. the car with the turbo alternator could uninstall the stock alternator, droping the stress off the belt and crankshaft(recovering about 3 horse power), but also at high power demand the turbo alternator will be harder to spin as every 25AMP of load added will need 1 horse power of turbine turning power from the exhaust.

to get a better understanding of this you would need to find out how much exhaust your car is putting out at what RPM vs how much flow and pressure of exhaust you need to have to run the turbo alternator at the load you need. personally i am looking for 13VDC@50AMPS from a good turbo alternator setup. i also want to add that a turbo with a big turbine side is harder to turn but has more torque and a smaller turbine side is easier to turn but has less torque, so finding the most efficient turbo alternator for your car depend on how much exhaust your engine is putting out vs the pressure you need for the load you plan on using.

wow the turbo alternator starting to look tougher than i first taught, maybe using us every available inch of your exhaust to install Thermoelectric Generators would be easier but you would still have a lag time for heating up. the turbo alternator put stress on your exhaust flow and pressure and if the pressure build up too much where your car's exhaust cant handle it would have the effect like putting a cover over your car's exhaust. maybe a big turbine side would be harder to turn but allows better air flow? :rolleyes:

Helz i cant bother to go on another forum right now, i have too much things doing. i can hardly keep up with this forum.
i have a new set of plates design which im planning on using in my first dry cell system. i will post on the other thread for feed back.

[richard_lyew]

http://green.autoblog.com/2009/02/09/thermoelectric-generator-in-a-volkswagen-golf-plus-lowers-fuel-u/