What is the most EFFICENT use of 12 Volts, in plate design?

[slimk]

I've read on here that 1.23 v is the max efficiency per plate [or is it per set of plates, one + and one -?] to create hho, and that giving a plate more then that will result in more more hho production but rather just useless heat.

If this is so, which seems to make sense...then what is the ideal number of plates, size of plates, way to wire them up together to FULLY and perfectly use 12 volts? is it as simple as dividing 12 by 1.23 which = 9.75? is using 10 plates the best way to not have excess heat and to get max production? if so do the plates need to be set up in a certain way? I'm interested in the math of all this, as it seems there should be a perfect fit per set voltage.

Also wondering how neutral plates fit into all this, how much v they use up?
Does this spliting up of v per plates only work if you have then in series or parallel or in different containers or all in one? what are the requirements or how can you figure out the best design?

If 10 is a good number of plates then i was thinking of doing this all in ONE 7.4 qt container -> [ +-+-+ / -+-+- ]

would that be well used and produce the most hho i can in one container? i would attach these with bolts, the / would mean those two groups are totally seperate and use their own set of bolts and are only joined by the water they are in, they would be hard wired as if they are in two seperate containers.

good idea? bad idea? help me and im sure many others understand this voltage thing!

[HYDROTEKPRO]

If it were that easy, these units would be for sale in every auto parts store already; and you could get refill bottles of electrolyte at 7-11.

There is alot of information out there on this technology, unfortunately there is also alot of MISinformation out there as well.

There are other variables that have to be correctly factored in, and these can vary depending on the values of some of the other variables. Area, spacing, electrolyte concentration, number of cells, current control (or not), voltage control (or not), etc.

We have found the safest bet is to do a shitload of tests. Then do another shitload of tests. Rinse and repeat, and go through this a few times. Then you personally know a shitload about this technology, if you do your tests right that is.

Then you can waste all kinds of time here with the rest of us!!:D

[Stratous]

The best use w/o being able to step voltage down would be to create 6 cells with no "N" plates. Each cell would be seperate and wired in series. That would give you 2 volts across each cell and only ~.7 volts wasted as heat. Thats my opinion.

[slimk]

thanks for the input, i knew it wasnt that simple, but i was wondering where this 1.23 v comes from, what baseline is being used to arrive at that figure or is it untrue in all cases? if not all cases WHICH cases is it true IN?

stratous: in your example, then each cell has 2 v, makes sense, but is it possible to have different cells or groupings with their own wiring and connected to the battery in series, BUT all sharing the same BIG body of electrolyte/water? if this is possible, would it better or worse then having them all in seperate containers? im guessing there would be more heat and/or production with them all in one big container because they'd all be connected via the electrolyte and feeding off of each other, even though they would be fairly far apart. would the extra heat from this big stew of sorts justify the extra production?

stratous: are you suggesting this is the BEST [if there is space in the car, money for it, etc] configuration for MAX long term production of HHO? from this type of setup what sort of lpm would i be looking at? also, would the production be higher if i used 6 big containers with big plates, then if i used 6 small containers with small plates? im guessing the bigger the better but then the more amps?

would it be ideal to get 6 as-big-as-possible containers with equally as-big-as-possible plates that come as CLOSE to using 30 amps [or similar safe limit] at max production, for using in a car to get the most HHO gas made?

thanks for help with this...and i may have to rethink my design...

[Stratous]

thanks for the input, i knew it wasnt that simple, but i was wondering where this 1.23 v comes from, what baseline is being used to arrive at that figure or is it untrue in all cases? if not all cases WHICH cases is it true IN?

stratous: in your example, then each cell has 2 v, makes sense, but is it possible to have different cells or groupings with their own wiring and connected to the battery in series, BUT all sharing the same BIG body of electrolyte/water? if this is possible, would it better or worse then having them all in seperate containers? im guessing there would be more heat and/or production with them all in one big container because they'd all be connected via the electrolyte and feeding off of each other, even though they would be fairly far apart. would the extra heat from this big stew of sorts justify the extra production?

stratous: are you suggesting this is the BEST [if there is space in the car, money for it, etc] configuration for MAX long term production of HHO? from this type of setup what sort of lpm would i be looking at? also, would the production be higher if i used 6 big containers with big plates, then if i used 6 small containers with small plates? im guessing the bigger the better but then the more amps?

would it be ideal to get 6 as-big-as-possible containers with equally as-big-as-possible plates that come as CLOSE to using 30 amps [or similar safe limit] at max production, for using in a car to get the most HHO gas made?

thanks for help with this...and i may have to rethink my design...

Answers

1. 1.23 volts is the minimum required energy to disassociate water molecules, scientifically proven many times
2. You can build 6 cells in a single bath, but you should place a nonconductive spacer between each cell. This will keep them from leaking current. You want the units isolated from each other as much as possible.
Personally that is the way I plan to build my next unit. A large container with seperate cells inside.
3. Large plates will have the capability of producing more than small plates, but will be far more expensive to build. Also, define small. My idea of small plates is about 3"x6".
4. for a vehicle 1 battery sized unit with 6 seperate cells inside should suffice for suplimentation. I wish I had a few hundred buck to blow so I could build one now.

[BoyntonStu]

The best use w/o being able to step voltage down would be to create 6 cells with no "N" plates. Each cell would be seperate and wired in series. That would give you 2 volts across each cell and only ~.7 volts wasted as heat. Thats my opinion.

Do you mean 6 cannisters?

You can use a single cannister with 6 "U" plates. (unconnected)

There will be 7 voltage steps of 2 volts each.

Why use separate cells?

BoyntonStu

[BoyntonStu]

thanks for the input, i knew it wasnt that simple, but i was wondering where this 1.23 v comes from, what baseline is being used to arrive at that figure or is it untrue in all cases? if not all cases WHICH cases is it true IN?

stratous: in your example, then each cell has 2 v, makes sense, but is it possible to have different cells or groupings with their own wiring and connected to the battery in series, BUT all sharing the same BIG body of electrolyte/water? if this is possible, would it better or worse then having them all in seperate containers? im guessing there would be more heat and/or production with them all in one big container because they'd all be connected via the electrolyte and feeding off of each other, even though they would be fairly far apart. would the extra heat from this big stew of sorts justify the extra production?



Wiki "water electrolysis"

Thus, the standard potential of the water electrolysis cell is 1.23 V at 25 °C.

The positive voltage indicates the Gibbs Free Energy for electrolysis of water is greater than zero for these reactions. This can be found using the Nernst Equation at equilibrium. The reaction cannot occur without adding necessary energy, usually supplied by an external electrical power source but also possible with thermal energy.


BoyntonStu

[Stratous]

Do you mean 6 cannisters?

You can use a single cannister with 6 "U" plates. (unconnected)

There will be 7 voltage steps of 2 volts each.

Why use separate cells?

BoyntonStu


The U plates are basically resistors. Resistors have a by product of heat generation. You can use the design you described, but more heat generation is a by product meaning it is less efficient.

[BoyntonStu]

The U plates are basically resistors. Resistors have a by product of heat generation. You can use the design you described, but more heat generation is a by product meaning it is less efficient.


What, pray tell, is the difference in heat generation between a single cell with 6 U plates and 6 separate series connected cells?

Please expand on your theory.

BoyntonStu

[slimk]

"2. You can build 6 cells in a single bath, but you should place a nonconductive spacer between each cell. This will keep them from leaking current. You want the units isolated from each other as much as possible."

Q: In this scheme would only the water be contained seperately and a free flow of gases above the cell's be desired? would this kinda thing work?
http://www.starfrit.com/Products/kitchen/Container/Regular/~/media/2D4B3068106D4A5BBEB89CC6BC77D116.ashx?w=405&bc=FFFFFF
it has seperate areas but then there is about a 2-4mm gap at the top so there is a little free flow of air between the areas, but as a container it is all sealed from outside air...

this seems like an interesting design, but what are its advantages? and what happens when you go over a big bump and the water splashes all around and all the areas mix leaving some areas with more water and others with less?

[Stratous]

What, pray tell, is the difference in heat generation between a single cell with 6 U plates and 6 separate series connected cells?

Please expand on your theory.

BoyntonStu

6 seperate cells only have 2 volts each which leaves about .7 volts for heat generation. In a single cell using the U plates, your still applying 13.8 volts to the cell. Yes the U plates resist the excess voltage, but heat is still generated by the resistive action. If we assume that 10 amps are drawn in each design, then the 6 cell system will only have about 20 watts per cell. In the single cell design you will have about 140 watts. In the 6 cell design about 12 watts is used for production of hydrogen, the left over 8 watts is wasted as heat. In the single cell it still takes only 12 watts but you have 122 watts left unused. The U plates will produce hydrogen as well, but not as much as the main plates, meaning they are less efficient. The loss of efficiency is left as heat. The use of the U plate is used as a cheap alternative to making several seperate cells. We all know its not as good.

[BoyntonStu]

"2. "

Q: In this scheme would only the water be contained seperately and a free flow of gases above the cell's be desired? would this kinda thing work?
http://www.starfrit.com/Products/kitchen/Container/Regular/~/media/2D4B3068106D4A5BBEB89CC6BC77D116.ashx?w=405&bc=FFFFFF
it has seperate areas but then there is about a 2-4mm gap at the top so there is a little free flow of air between the areas, but as a container it is all sealed from outside air...

this seems like an interesting design, but what are its advantages? and what happens when you go over a big bump and the water splashes all around and all the areas mix leaving some areas with more water and others with less?

You can build 6 cells in a single bath, but you should place a nonconductive spacer between each cell. This will keep them from leaking current. You want the units isolated from each other as much as possible.

The definition of a U cell is that it is not electrically connected to any other plate. The space between ALL cells is filled with electrolyte which needs to be conductive. That is why you add KOH to distilled water, to make it a conductor.


Air above the cells is OK.


BoyntonStu

[Stratous]

BTW, I like the table saw. I see your an amature inventor, unless I have you mistaken for someone else.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Boyntonstu
http://www.suijuris.net/forum/website-help-enhancements/2864-put-boyntonstu-ignore-list.html
http://www.suijuris.net/forum/misc-discussion/1654-1-2-full-1-2-empty-test.html

[midnight1957]

Boyntonstu, are you a lawyer????????????/

I am trying to understand cells and hydrogen production. Stratous, here is a question for you and anyone else that wants to help me. I have built a generator with the following plates ++ nn - - . I connected it to my charger for about a half hour and very little if anything happened. I had to stop because I have to start getting ready for vacation next week. I had been following another guy that said his cell produced about 3/4 liter a minute which he said was enough to help with his S10 truck, he said any more than that and the mileage would decrease, is that true? his cell was + - + , when I tried it it produced some foam but not enough gas to make bubbles come out of a 1/4 inch bubbler tube, he said I must have had a leak but I don't think so.
When you guys speak of a cell please explain, is a cell one + and one - or what. If mine was + + n n - - what was it two cells. My plates are 3 1/2 X7 1/2 in a 2 gallon container with about 2/3 of the plates submerged. I didn't add any kind of electrolyte, he said he never adds any, but I also have very little foam.
What is my problem, and Stratous explain the cell you want to build in + N - or whatever. I am just trying to understand the terms you guys use and trying to learn how to make a decent amount od hydrogen.

Thanks and have a Blessed day,
Wade

[BoyntonStu]

BTW, I like the table saw. I see your an amature inventor, unless I have you mistaken for someone else.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Boyntonstu
http://www.suijuris.net/forum/website-help-enhancements/2864-put-boyntonstu-ignore-list.html
http://www.suijuris.net/forum/misc-discussion/1654-1-2-full-1-2-empty-test.html

Yes. Check out my $100 home built elevator.

I don't talk bull, I build.


Beauty is temporary, but stupidity is forever.

Some of these young guys seem afraid to learn anything.


BoyntonStu

[Stratous]

Boyntonstu, are you a lawyer????????????/

I am trying to understand cells and hydrogen production. Stratous, here is a question for you and anyone else that wants to help me. I have built a generator with the following plates ++ nn - - . I connected it to my charger for about a half hour and very little if anything happened. I had to stop because I have to start getting ready for vacation next week. I had been following another guy that said his cell produced about 3/4 liter a minute which he said was enough to help with his S10 truck, he said any more than that and the mileage would decrease, is that true? his cell was + - + , when I tried it it produced some foam but not enough gas to make bubbles come out of a 1/4 inch bubbler tube, he said I must have had a leak but I don't think so.
When you guys speak of a cell please explain, is a cell one + and one - or what. If mine was + + n n - - what was it two cells. My plates are 3 1/2 X7 1/2 in a 2 gallon container with about 2/3 of the plates submerged. I didn't add any kind of electrolyte, he said he never adds any, but I also have very little foam.
What is my problem, and Stratous explain the cell you want to build in + N - or whatever. I am just trying to understand the terms you guys use and trying to learn how to make a decent amount od hydrogen.

Thanks and have a Blessed day,
Wade

If you rework your cell and make it +n-n+ you will get alot more production. I am not sure how your friend gets 3/4 liter per minute using distilled water. Distilled water is almost non conductive, adding electrolyte is as far as I know a neccessity. I would consider your current cell design to be one cell because of the way its designed. I really should download the program that allows me to draw. In an electrolyte solution the current travels from negative to positive, so in your current design, you have a single arch. The outter negative plate and outter positve plate most likely are not working because the current is going to take the least resistive path. So it would likely travel from the inner neg plate through and around the N plates to the inner positive plate. In the design +NN-NN+ your current travel will look like an M or a McDonalds arch. Some of the current will leak around the plates but that is for another days dicussion. N plate just means a plate that isnt connected directly to the power source. It sits between the anode and cathode. It isnt really neutral as the current passes through it. It acts more like a resistor decreasing the voltage by about 2 volts. So a cell like this +N- may have 12 volts applied at the anode and cathode, but if you measure from the N plate to the cathode it will read about 10 volts. I hope this is enough to get you started.

[BoyntonStu]

If you rework your cell and make it +n-n+ you will get alot more production. I am not sure how your friend gets 3/4 liter per minute using distilled water. Distilled water is almost non conductive, adding electrolyte is as far as I know a neccessity. I would consider your current cell design to be one cell because of the way its designed. I really should download the program that allows me to draw. In an electrolyte solution the current travels from negative to positive, so in your current design, you have a single arch. The outter negative plate and outter positve plate most likely are not working because the current is going to take the least resistive path. So it would likely travel from the inner neg plate through and around the N plates to the inner positive plate. In the design +NN-NN+ your current travel will look like an M or a McDonalds arch. Some of the current will leak around the plates but that is for another days dicussion. N plate just means a plate that isnt connected directly to the power source. It sits between the anode and cathode. It isnt really neutral as the current passes through it. It acts more like a resistor decreasing the voltage by about 2 volts. So a cell like this +N- may have 12 volts applied at the anode and cathode, but if you measure from the N plate to the cathode it will read about 10 volts. I hope this is enough to get you started.

So a cell like this +N- may have 12 volts applied at the anode and cathode, but if you measure from the N plate to the cathode it will read about 10 volts.

Actually, it will measure 6 Volts, not 10 Volts.

Try it.

BoyntonStu

[Stratous]

I have tried it several times.

[Stratous]

Well, I dont think I have actually tried it with just 1 N plate, so I will go try it here shortly. Shouldnt take long as I already have all the stuff to do it.

[Stratous]

Ok, I stand corrected. After testing a 3 plate design of +N- with a spacing of about 1 inch. The total input voltage was 12.28V. Voltage from either the negative terminal or positive terminal to the N plate was ~6 volts. I then added another N plate so the setup was +NN-, the voltage was like this.

- N N +
~8v~4v

After I had completed this test, I decreased the spacing to about 1/4 inch to see if spacing had an effect. It did not, the voltage step was the same. I am not sure why I didnt catch this before as I have tested voltage across the N plates several times. I suppose its because I have only tested on different designs like +nn-nn+ and +nnn-nnn+

[1973dodger]

Here are a few thoughts, conclusions, and questions from 3 months of research and testing;
OBSERVATIONS
1- there is a lot of good and bad information and rumor out there concerning hho
2- neutral plates come in handy if your are running too many amps, but so far i have noticed little improvement in liters per minute by using them.
3- in brute force electrolosis, current used is critical in higher production of hho. a good rule of thumb is 20 amps for every 1 lt/min. smaller spacing is also important
4- i have found the smacks design to be the most efficient in liters per amp thus far. (16.82 amps/liter with a 12 volt system)
5- the smacks design uses 2 sets of 3 cells in a series, with 3 volts per cell. i have tryed different variations of this design, either by adding an extra cell on each side or taking away a cell on each side, and have proved to me anyway, that 3 volts drive a cell more efficiently in liters per amp than a lower or higher voltage in a 12 volt system.
6- best electrolite is either koh or lye. (amps are more predictable) though there are some concerns of acidic gases contaminating your bubbler fluid and over time and make its way to your engine. (perhaps vinegar in your bubbler would neutralize any acids, then there's the question of, what some vinegar moisture would do to your engine over time.)
7- the best way to combat heat is with a cooling system via a radiator with a small 12 volt cooling fan. the trouble is most electrolites will eat though aluminum in short term. best answer to this is to have each cell in it's own closed system container, which in turn is setting in a larger container with it's own water/antifreeze system, and circulate the water in the cooling tank through a radiator with cooling fan. (certainly size constaints are a factor)
8- there are many experts put there, and you will get 100 different opinions for every 100 experts you ask. at best, this hho thing is still in the experimental stages, and many of the answers you will have to use the trial and error method with.
9- 25 to 30 amps is the most current someone should consider using for their hho system, with their current electrical systems in their cars, unless you plan to run a larger capacity altenator. then there is a law of "diminishing returns" coming into play. unless you plan on charging a seperate battery system at home each day or figure out a solar charging system which would meet your needs. ( i have tried using a brute force system with a seperate altenator producing 3.6 l/m @ 66.8 amps with it's own seperate altenator and have noticed no measurable advantage, using 4 smack type of cells in parallel @ 12.5 volts. (too much strain on the engine)
10- best way to regulate the current you use with the most production, is to use as close of a spacing between the plates as possible and add electrolyte to the distilled water until you reach desired amperage or production. if you end up with to rich of mixture, just pour some out and dilute with plain distilled water.
11- i do think hydrogen assist or hydrogen powered cars are the wave of the future, but i think brute force electrolosis to produce hydrogen is just a step in that direction, but i for one am in all the way, even if i get just 20% better mpg., and all the time and money used turns out to be a wash in fuel saved. perhaps i or you might stubble on to the next step in the independence from foriegn oil and greedy oil tycoons with their thumbs on this country and our economy. so please, with all your might and the GOOD LORD'S help, let's put our mind's and different expertises together to come to some solution.
12- when selecting an EFIE type of device, look for a device raises or lowers voltage with the "same fluxuations" in voltage as the oxygen or map sensors produce. be careful not to over-lean or harm will come to your engine. as best as i have been able to tell the production rate per amp is the same with a pwm, the big advantage is the pwm will allow you more control over your cell.
13- water4gas and others like it, is at best, an introduction into the electrolosis process, in my opinion youtube and forums like these will give you the knowlege needed to get off of the ground, but you will have to sift through a lot of information.
14- beware of some amp gauges, not all amp gauges are created the same. i had one automotive amp gage, bought at a car parts store, and it was reading 42 amps on a 4 x smack cell i was in the process of building and adding electrolite to.(i thought 6 liters a minute for 42 amps was too good to be true) as it turns out, i borrowed a amp meter from a mechanic freind and it read 97 amps. so needless to say i had to dilute my electrolite mixture and go and buy me a proper dc amp meter.

QUESTIONS
1- it is assumed by many that waste voltage is the main cause in excess heat. i maintain it has more to do with resistence caused by using a material such as stainless steel with it's low conductive qualities. i think perhaps, since voltage is the force which pushes the current, that our 12systems would be better served by hooking 2 12 volt batteries in a series and use 24 volts to push current though our cells. it would be interesting to see the difference in temp over a set period of time using a copper cell with the same cell specifacations as of a stainless cell. though i do understand copper can not hold up in the electrolosis process for any extended period of time, it just might prove my point, that resistence is the enemy concerning heat. hence, more voltage may prove to be desirable in driving our cells.
2-sulfuric acid and zinc looks to be a more efficient way of producing hydrogen, has anyone tried this? i just have to wonder how one would regulate it's production. i'm no chemist, just a lowly building contractor.
3- if hydrogen and oxygen bubbles sticking to our plates is a problem in production of hho, has anyone looked into increasing the bouyancy forces by putting cells deeper into the water or does this hinder the electrolosis process?
4- does anyone have first hand knowlege of a factor called "hydrogen embrittlement" to the metal in your cylinder walls or does this just apply to 100% hydrogen fuel car?
5- what determines if an element, such as hydrogen gas, is a positive or negative charge. is it weight, gravity, electrons rotation, or the GOOD LORD?
6- how much hydrogen is enough in a hydrogen assist system. is it 1 l/m for every liter of engine or is it 1/2 l/m?
7- has anyone noticed a difference in current used in thicker plates -vs- thinner plates?
8- i see a trend in going with sealed wet cells on the internet. i'm curious about the liters / amp. is anyone using them out there.
9- has anyone tried human electrolites, such is commonly used in sports drinks?

FINAL THOUGHTS

sorry for being so long winded, but i feel it is important to share our sucesses as well as our failures and to do our own experimentations before reporting anything as fact, even if we get our information from so-called reliable sources. we should report from our experiences, not what we have read, heard or saw. i think every fact should be on the chopping table if it does not hold up in real life use. if we keep doing things the same way as every other joe is doing this, how are we going to get the results we are all eventually after.-100% FOSSIL FUEL FREE!!!

1973dodger

[BoyntonStu]

"i have found the smacks design to be the most efficient in liters per amp thus far. (16.82 amps/liter with a 12 volt system)"

Actually Smack's 16.82 amps/l/min is no so great.

Zero Fossil Fuel measures 5 ml/min/mili-watt which translates to 13.79 amps/liter.

Smack's cell is 22% LESS efficient.

See Zero's video on Youtube.


BoyntonStu

[mneste8718]

This might be a little off subject but I just had the idea of using a voltage regulator with our electrolyzers. If 1.24 volts is key (from what I have researched), then perhaps a voltage regulator set to 1.24volts could help. I don't know how feasible this is, but I'm just throwing it out there.

1973dodger, what dictates the + or - charge on Hydrogen and Oxygen is the amount of electrons they posses.

From my experience with using thin SS wall plates and much thicker SS sheet metal; the Sheet metal can handle a lot more amperage without run away heating. I could maybe run 3 amps with the wall plates and any more and it would heat up a lot and this is with some big spacing.

With the thicker sheet metal (probably 1/8" thick). I was able to run like 15-20 amps (can't say exactly) without it being too much of a problem. The problem I've been having is with the crappy container I've been using that keeps melting and leaking. But when it did work, my MPGs increased by 7-8mpg on the hwy. This is using 7 plates and 5 were neutrals (or whatever you want to call it, unconnected plates).

I doubt that you will have problems with bubbles sticking to the plates when you have the electrolyzer in the engine compartment because of all the vibration that happens there. The bubbles should immediately dislodge...

[BoyntonStu]

This might be a little off subject but I just had the idea of using a voltage regulator with our electrolyzers. If 1.24 volts is key (from what I have researched), then perhaps a voltage regulator set to 1.24volts could help. I don't know how feasible this is, but I'm just throwing it out there.

1973dodger, what dictates the + or - charge on Hydrogen and Oxygen is the amount of electrons they posses.

From my experience with using thin SS wall plates and much thicker SS sheet metal; the Sheet metal can handle a lot more amperage without run away heating. I could maybe run 3 amps with the wall plates and any more and it would heat up a lot and this is with some big spacing.

With the thicker sheet metal (probably 1/8" thick). I was able to run like 15-20 amps (can't say exactly) without it being too much of a problem. The problem I've been having is with the crappy container I've been using that keeps melting and leaking. But when it did work, my MPGs increased by 7-8mpg on the hwy. This is using 7 plates and 5 were neutrals (or whatever you want to call it, unconnected plates).

I doubt that you will have problems with bubbles sticking to the plates when you have the electrolyzer in the engine compartment because of all the vibration that happens there. The bubbles should immediately dislodge...

FYI The Russian designed space station Hydrogen generator uses 2 Volts at 400 Amps.

BoyntonStu

[mneste8718]

FYI The Russian designed space station Hydrogen generator uses 2 Volts at 400 Amps.

BoyntonStu

That could be because they might be using thick SS sheet metal that has an internal resistance of its own which would bring the voltage down to closer to 1.24 volts.

[BoyntonStu]

That could be because they might be using thick SS sheet metal that has an internal resistance of its own which would bring the voltage down to closer to 1.24 volts.

Nonsense!


A foot thick of stainless steel has negligible resistance.

For that matter any metal normally used as an electrode.

What do you think the resistivity of steel is?

BoyntonStu

[mneste8718]

Nonsense!


A foot thick of stainless steel has negligible resistance.

For that matter any metal normally used as an electrode.

What do you think the resistivity of steel is?

BoyntonStu

Hogwash!

I don't know the resistivity exactly but why do you think that the metal heats up when there is a lot of current flowing through it. It's because the metal is resisting the flow of electrons and as a result makes heat.

[mneste8718]

Nonsense!


A foot thick of stainless steel has negligible resistance.

For that matter any metal normally used as an electrode.

What do you think the resistivity of steel is?

BoyntonStu

Here is some more nonsense...

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/UmranUgur.shtml

[ridelong]

mneste8718,

It would be easy to build a voltage regulator, but it would waste lots of energy.

For example,if you are running on 12 volts and regulate to 2 volts, 10 volts must be across the regulator. If your cell draws 1 amp, the cell would consume 2 volts X 1 amp= 2 watts. But the regulator would consume 10 volts X 1 amp= 10 watts, 5 times what is used in the cell.

There are electronic ways to get the waste power down, but every answer costs money.

I find adjusting Plate quantity and electrolyte strength the cheapest and best control method.


Plates heat up? I think the electrolyte heats up and transferrs heat to the plates.

[dennis13030]

I've read on here that 1.23 v is the max efficiency per plate [or is it per set of plates, one + and one -?] to create hho, and that giving a plate more then that will result in more more hho production but rather just useless heat.

I believe that the 1.23V spec. for max efficiency is per pair of adjacent electrodes(plates). This max efficiency is referring to energy(Output vs. Input). There are a couple things to make note of here.

1. Although max efficiency is at 1.23V per cell, it is also the point of minimum gas production. More voltage than 1.23V per cell does produce more HHO gas but at the expense of efficiency losses and heating effects.
2. The reaction curve for water electrolysis is not linear. As voltage across the cell increases the current and the heat increases even more(percentage-wise).

[BoyntonStu]

I believe that the 1.23V spec. for max efficiency is per pair of adjacent electrodes(plates). This max efficiency is referring to energy(Output vs. Input). There are a couple things to make note of here.

1. Although max efficiency is at 1.23V per cell, it is also the point of minimum gas production. More voltage than 1.23V per cell does produce more HHO gas but at the expense of efficiency losses and heating effects.
2. The reaction curve for water electrolysis is not linear. As voltage across the cell increases the current and the heat increases even more(percentage-wise).

Thanks! That is good nonsense. LOL

Empirical testing indicates that a cell voltage between 2.0 and 2.5 seems to be a sweet spot range for production.

Might you have a graph of production vs voltage in you bag of nonsense?

BoyntonStu

[BoyntonStu]

Ok, I stand corrected. After testing a 3 plate design of +N- with a spacing of about 1 inch. The total input voltage was 12.28V. Voltage from either the negative terminal or positive terminal to the N plate was ~6 volts. I then added another N plate so the setup was +NN-, the voltage was like this.

- N N +
~8v~4v

After I had completed this test, I decreased the spacing to about 1/4 inch to see if spacing had an effect. It did not, the voltage step was the same. I am not sure why I didnt catch this before as I have tested voltage across the N plates several times. I suppose its because I have only tested on different designs like +nn-nn+ and +nnn-nnn+

Thank you, and I stand confirmed.

BoyntonStu

[Stratous]

I believe that the 1.23V spec. for max efficiency is per pair of adjacent electrodes(plates). This max efficiency is referring to energy(Output vs. Input). There are a couple things to make note of here.

1. Although max efficiency is at 1.23V per cell, it is also the point of minimum gas production. More voltage than 1.23V per cell does produce more HHO gas but at the expense of efficiency losses and heating effects.
2. The reaction curve for water electrolysis is not linear. As voltage across the cell increases the current and the heat increases even more(percentage-wise).

Well said dennis, it is true that more production can be obtained with more voltage, as well as more current. Imagine a cell at say 220V@60 amps. Since we are attempting to make these for automobiles, then we should concentrate on ~13V. Unless of course somone is smart enough to build a cheap step down for DC that will not limit current. I would like to ask anyone who has the materials to try a simple design. 6 seperate cells with only 2 plates in each cell. +-. Wire each cell in series and apply 13.8 volts. Limit the cells to a total of 6 amps. I wish I had the materials to build this. I think it would out preform my double cell in production and heat production.

[BoyntonStu]

Here is some more nonsense...

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/UmranUgur.shtml

These tables prove my point.

Any metal having a resistivity in the 10^-6 range translates to a immeasurably tiny resistance in our thickness plates at any water-electrolyte temperature.

In other words a ZERO voltage drop.

I stand confirmed.

You stand corrected.

BoyntonStu

[dhho]

Hi guys I am new to tis forum and I would like to support Dennises thoery.I built a 7 cell container like a battery but with 7 cells not 6 with 2 plates per cell with a strong mix of noah 24% and with 7 cells I could only pull just over 1 amp and made about .5 liter p/m gas with about 1.7 volts on each cell.It was very disapointing as it cost heaps to get cell made from acrylic.I then shorted out center cell so it is now a 6 cell and are getting just over 1 l/p/m at 5.2 amps.Still can't pull anymore amps at this 6 cell config,but are happy with results.
Hope this helps,
Mos

[Stratous]

Hi guys I am new to tis forum and I would like to support Dennises thoery.I built a 7 cell container like a battery but with 7 cells not 6 with 2 plates per cell with a strong mix of noah 24% and with 7 cells I could only pull just over 1 amp and made about .5 liter p/m gas with about 1.7 volts on each cell.It was very disapointing as it cost heaps to get cell made from acrylic.I then shorted out center cell so it is now a 6 cell and are getting just over 1 l/p/m at 5.2 amps.Still can't pull anymore amps at this 6 cell config,but are happy with results.
Hope this helps,
Mos

1LPM at 5.2 amps is very good. What is the total voltage applied to the cell?

[dennis13030]

Might you have a graph of production vs voltage in you bag of nonsense?

I wish! I have been searching a lot on the web for this detail.

The charts like this give us the relationships we need to make good design decisions.

I would like to know the relationships between;
1. active surface area & current draw,
2. active surface area & gas production,
3. cell voltage & current draw,
4. cell voltage & gas production,
5. electrode spacing & current draw,
6. electrode spacing & gas production.

Basically all of the important relationships involved.

[computerclinic]

Good observations in the long write up, but I would have to dissagree with a radiator design for cooling, that is unless you have an all SS setup. The easiest way to reduce the heat without consuming more energy to keep cool or sacrificing parts and labor, is to increase the overall volume of the generator to allow for more electrolyte. This is of course my own opinion and I have yet to experiment with a radiator.

[BoyntonStu]

I wish! I have been searching a lot on the web for this detail.

The charts like this give us the relationships we need to make good design decisions.

I would like to know the relationships between;
1. active surface area & current draw,
2. active surface area & gas production,
3. cell voltage & current draw,
4. cell voltage & gas production,
5. electrode spacing & current draw,
6. electrode spacing & gas production.

Basically all of the important relationships involved.

Ditto for all the above.

I believe that 6. has been answered on at least one Youtube video.

Check this series out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXK8mJbmz6o


BoyntonStu

[mario brito]

Good observations in the long write up, but I would have to dissagree with a radiator design for cooling, that is unless you have an all SS setup. The easiest way to reduce the heat without consuming more energy to keep cool or sacrificing parts and labor, is to increase the overall volume of the generator to allow for more electrolyte. This is of course my own opinion and I have yet to experiment with a radiator.

why not use passive cooling ? just like a computer cpu but whithout the fan. the air flow is assured by all the air movement around the engine, and copper coolers are cheap and there's all size's you may whant on a computer shop. don't forget to put some thermal paste between your HHO unit and the cooler.

just an idea :)

thanks

[1973dodger]

In the system I use with a seperate cooling system, it only draws 1.2 amps for the 12 v fan and pump when it is running, also is set up on a thermal switch.

dhho, i would please like to know plate arraingement, spacing, are you using a reliable amp meter, size of plates, prep of plates, so on.

1973 dodger

[1973dodger]

On another note regarding production, has anyone asked the question; what happens to the hho when it enters the air stream in the intake? When I light the bubbles coming out of my bubbler, the hho is only igniteable within a few inches of the surface of the water before it dilutes into the air.

1973 dodger

[dhho]

Hi Stratous my voltage is 13.65
thanks,
Mos

[droxy]

Well said dennis, it is true that more production can be obtained with more voltage, as well as more current. Imagine a cell at say 220V@60 amps. Since we are attempting to make these for automobiles, then we should concentrate on ~13V. Unless of course somone is smart enough to build a cheap step down for DC that will not limit current. I would like to ask anyone who has the materials to try a simple design. 6 seperate cells with only 2 plates in each cell. +-. Wire each cell in series and apply 13.8 volts. Limit the cells to a total of 6 amps. I wish I had the materials to build this. I think it would out preform my double cell in production and heat production.


I have done this in an old battery box with 12 plates hooked up in series and get approx 2.25 v across each cell and it starts with a cold amp draw of 11.2/4 (a bit high I reckon ) and after 4 hrs it was pulling 19.6/7 and was only warm to touch.
Are in the process of putting a lid on it atm to see what LPM it's doing so will be interesting to see how much it makes as it appeared to be doing well.

[slimk]

Well said dennis, it is true that more production can be obtained with more voltage, as well as more current. Imagine a cell at say 220V@60 amps. Since we are attempting to make these for automobiles, then we should concentrate on ~13V. Unless of course somone is smart enough to build a cheap step down for DC that will not limit current. I would like to ask anyone who has the materials to try a simple design. 6 seperate cells with only 2 plates in each cell. +-. Wire each cell in series and apply 13.8 volts. Limit the cells to a total of 6 amps. I wish I had the materials to build this. I think it would out preform my double cell in production and heat production.

if you could build this 6 cell system your talking about [something that im considering doing now] how big in volume would each cell be? im thinking in 2 qt range, but i want to know your ideal.

same with plate size, if your planning on having no N plates just + and - then how big and how thick would you want those plates, would you want such large plates that you'd require to use an even bigger cell container then 2 qt?

thanks

[bobcampbell]

I've read on here that 1.23 v is the max efficiency per plate [or is it per set of plates, one + and one -?] to create hho, and that giving a plate more then that will result in more more hho production but rather just useless heat.

If this is so, which seems to make sense...then what is the ideal number of plates, size of plates, way to wire them up together to FULLY and perfectly use 12 volts? is it as simple as dividing 12 by 1.23 which = 9.75? is using 10 plates the best way to not have excess heat and to get max production? if so do the plates need to be set up in a certain way? I'm interested in the math of all this, as it seems there should be a perfect fit per set voltage.

Also wondering how neutral plates fit into all this, how much v they use up?
Does this spliting up of v per plates only work if you have then in series or parallel or in different containers or all in one? what are the requirements or how can you figure out the best design?

If 10 is a good number of plates then i was thinking of doing this all in ONE 7.4 qt container -> [ +-+-+ / -+-+- ]

would that be well used and produce the most hho i can in one container? i would attach these with bolts, the / would mean those two groups are totally seperate and use their own set of bolts and are only joined by the water they are in, they would be hard wired as if they are in two seperate containers.

good idea? bad idea? help me and im sure many others understand this voltage thing!



As for stacking groups of +nnn-nnn+ in a series I have determined from experiments that the efficiency is not undermined and more production is created from the increased plate area. I've tested everything from +nnn- to +nnn-nnn+nnn-nnn+. One thing I know is that +-+ is not as efficient as +nnn-.

I plan to do more experimenting in the near future to determine efficiency vs. the number of neutral plates. It appears to me so far that +NNN- is better than +nn- or +n-. I suspect that it all hinges in the 1.23 voltage drop across the adjacent plates. +NNNNNNNNN- would be the optimum array if this is so. Seems like a lot of neutral plates. I wonder if the electrolyte would have to be increased to maintain a good current.

[mneste8718]

These tables prove my point.

Any metal having a resistivity in the 10^-6 range translates to a immeasurably tiny resistance in our thickness plates at any water-electrolyte temperature.

In other words a ZERO voltage drop.

I stand confirmed.

You stand corrected.

BoyntonStu

Fiddle faddle!

Those numbers do not show the resistivity while there is an increase in heat. They do not show resistivity under teh conditions we use them. That page does confirm something that you completely denied though which is teh fact that SS does have internal resistance.

And so sir I am seated and you stand corrected.

[BoyntonStu]

Fiddle faddle!

Those numbers do not show the resistivity while there is an increase in heat. They do not show resistivity under teh conditions we use them. That page does confirm something that you completely denied though which is teh fact that SS does have internal resistance.

And so sir I am seated and you stand corrected.

Believe whatever you believe.

SS does have internal resistance. I agree, and I indicated resistivity as the measurement of a thickness of SS. Again, negligible resistance. As in almost zero. Nada. Take out your multimeter, heat a piece of SS to 200*F and try to measure resistance across its thickness. Until you do this, you will not comprehend the nonsense that you spew.

You have no understanding of resistivity and what the temperature coefficient of increased resistivity with temperature amounts to quantitatively.


A little truth, a very, very little truth, has set you astray.

When you learn about it I will then accept your apology.

BoyntonStu

[mneste8718]

Believe whatever you believe.

SS does have internal resistance. I agree, and I indicated resistivity as the measurement of a thickness of SS. Again, negligible resistance. As in almost zero. Nada. Take out your multimeter, heat a piece of SS to 200*F and try to measure resistance across its thickness. Until you do this, you will not comprehend the nonsense that you spew.

You have no understanding of resistivity and what the temperature coefficient of increased resistivity with temperature amounts to quantitatively.


A little truth, a very, very little truth, has set you astray.

When you learn about it I will then accept your apology.

BoyntonStu

Sir, you argue like a 5 year old and I am not going to continue this any longer. Next thing you know your going to be saying to me, 'liar liar pants on fire' and so I am not going to apologize for anything and I am not going to continue this conversation any longer.

[BoyntonStu]

Sir, you argue like a 5 year old and I am not going to continue this any longer. Next thing you know your going to be saying to me, 'liar liar pants on fire' and so I am not going to apologize for anything and I am not going to continue this conversation any longer.


Please. And I thank you for your silence.

BoyntonStu

[1973dodger]

Gentlemen, let us please keep our focus. I, like you, have done a great deal of research, but as i have stated earlier in this post, research is fine, but it is no substitute for real life experimentation. So both of you, instead of quoting this guy or that guy, check it out for yourself then post the results.

1973 dodger

[bobcampbell]

OK Here’s the experiment I proposed:
“I plan to do more experimenting in the near future to determine efficiency vs. the number of neutral plates. It appears to me so far that +NNN- is better than +nn- or +n-. I suspect that it all hinges in the 1.23 voltage drop across the adjacent plates. +NNNNNNNNN- would be the optimum array if this is so. Seems like a lot of neutral plates. I wonder if the electrolyte would have to be increased to maintain a good current.”

The results were that 9 neutral plates between the positive and negative plates do in fact distribute the voltage equally as was expected. The problem is that there is not enough current to make it produce when 13.4 volts is applied. I suspect a higher voltage would work but then that’s not what this experiment was trying to prove.

I eventually dumped an entire box of baking soda into a gallon of water in order to raise the current but it never exceeded 2A and did not produce enough HHO to measure in this life time. I also reduced the neutral plates to 5 and it still did not perform well enough to take a volume measurement. This is not the result I expected.

I’d have to say the theory is a bust. +NNN- works best for me.

[BoyntonStu]

Gentlemen, let us please keep our focus. I, like you, have done a great deal of research, but as i have stated earlier in this post, research is fine, but it is no substitute for real life experimentation. So both of you, instead of quoting this guy or that guy, check it out for yourself then post the results.

1973 dodger


You know, I Agree with your statement.

"research is fine, but it is no substitute for real life experimentation."

The question is. "where to begin".

Does one just begin by making a cell that makes pretty bubbles?

Or, does one first do some research to determine how much Hydroxy is required for the task at hand.

I believe that in my research I have discovered some basic facts:

1> A gasoline engine is by its very nature working against itself when it fires BTDC. It is pushing against itself.

2> Hydroxy can increase the flame speed and therefore timing can be adjusted to reduce the loss explained above. This is most likely the main source of potential increased mpg.

3> If you had no Hydroxy and if you adjusted the efie and the O2 sensor biases you will gain mpg but the engine will run hotter.

4> A cell that generates only steam will increase mpg.

5> Several major experiments have found that an enormous amount of Hydroxy about 1 liter/sec is required to increase mpg by a little more than 20%.

6> It has also been reported by 2 of my email friends that 1 l/min Hydroxy will cool an engine and also increase mpg by 2 mpg while simultaneously keeping the mpg gained by efie and O2 mods. This is important!

7> Reading the testimonials I find mixed results.

8> The biggest mpg gains are reported by newbies, especially non-engineers.


my $0.02

BoyntonStu

[timetowinarace]

Some of these young guys seem afraid to learn anything.


BoyntonStu

I agree. 70% of the conversations, including this one, would be avoided with some personal research.

Much of what is discussed here often has already been built, tested, and optimum performance determined by someone.

The Russians are using 2V for a reason. Optimum plate gap for most designs have allready been determined. Whether to use unconnected plates or a number of cells in series for best results has allready been determined.

I'll also add that I consider u-tube a poor source of information.

Like Stratous, my next major design will use 6/7 SEPERATE cells in series.

[1973dodger]

Firstly, I was raised in a family of engineers and have worked with a good many architects over the years, while they have their place in life, they as a rule,do too much hypothesizing, theorizing, pontificating without any real life experience into what works and what does'nt. Get in there and get your hands dirty. I for one, started with one of those crappy "water4gas" spiral cells and started improving from there. (yes, I was one those suckers) But it did introduce me to some of the basic principles and yes, i have done my fair share researching, but there are so many opinions as to what works and what does'nt, it is hard to know which opnion is right. I can tell you what i have experienced, concerning the questions you pose.
1- yes
2- it does effect timing depending on hho output,but from what i have experienced not by much (i was producing 3.6 lpm and was able adjusting 2degrees and still keep power)
3-yes, a lean burn will make your engine run hotter. excess fuel is actually used to cool your cylinders under a load
4-no, the water vapors may cool your cylinder walls, but that is it, unless of course you were using a steam engine.ha!
5-and ther is just as many reports of a 1/2 l/m increases mpg by 30%-50%, once again the only way to know is to find out for yourself.
6-perhaps, but best way is to get a 1000 degree temp. guage and read exhaust manifold temps before and after the addition of hho
7- absolutely
8-who knows, i think it greatly depends the test subject(engine) and not all mpg test are done with objectivity. Hence the need for personal experimentation.

Finally, I have a good many freinds, family members, and experts in the automotive business here locally, waiting with baited breath to see the results of my experiments(mostly waiting to see if i blow something up, i think) yet will not get involved or wait in the wings saying to each other why they don't think it will work, many much smarter than this dumb old building contractor, and i just wonder, why want they just try it and maybe with many of their expertises, they could take this thing further than what i could. i think many in the automotive feild have been duped into thinking that the automotive giants and oil companies know what is best. when by the very nature of their business, it would certainly not be very good for business for fuel consumption to go down.

1973dodger

[bobcampbell]

Here are the results of an efficiency test I did with that supper saturated solution of baking soda 1 box per gallon

+NNNN- 0.50LPM @ 4Amps = 110 Watt Minutes/Litter
+NNN- 1.07LPM @ 11Amps = 141 Watt Minutes/Litter
+NN- 1.67LPM @ 20Amps = 164 Watt Minutes/Litter

+NNNNN- was too slow for practical measurements

So what happens if I put this in parallel? Here are those results:
+NNNN-NNNN+ 0.70LPM @ 7Amps = 137 Watt Minutes/Litter
+NNN-NNN+ 1.67LPM @ 14Amps = 115 Watt Minutes/Litter

Just to be clear – My test generator is a 13-plate flat plate design. The plates have 10.3 square inches exposed per side and are separated by 40 mills. I have an electrical connection to each plate so it’s just a matter of switching a few wires to create a new array. This does leave the remaining plates at one end in a neutral position. Since they appear to be out of the circuit I’m assuming this has no effect but that's just an assumption and short of disassembling the generator for each test it is the best I can do.

[dennis13030]

Here are the results of an efficiency test I did with that supper saturated solution of baking soda 1 box per gallon

+NNNN- 1.00LPM @ 4Amps = 55 Watt Minutes/Litter
+NNN- 1.07LPM @ 11Amps = 141 Watt Minutes/Litter
+NN- 1.67LPM @ 20Amps = 164 Watt Minutes/Litter

+NNNNN- was too slow for practical measurements

So what happens if I put this in parallel? Here are those results:
+NNNN-NNNN+ 0.70LPM @ 7Amps = 137 Watt Minutes/Litter
+NNN-NNN+ 1.67LPM @ 14Amps = 115 Watt Minutes/Litter

Just to be clear – My test generator is a 13-plate flat plate design. The plates have 10.3 square inches exposed per side and are separated by 40 mills. I have an electrical connection to each plate so it’s just a matter of switching a few wires to create a new array. This does leave the remaining plates at one end in a neutral position. Since they appear to be out of the circuit I’m assuming this has no effect but that's just an assumption and short of disassembling the generator for each test it is the best I can do.

What was the source voltage?
Efficiency is best compared and stated with units of liters per minute per Watt. I don't know what a Watt Minute/Liter is.

[Stratous]

Here are the results of an efficiency test I did with that supper saturated solution of baking soda 1 box per gallon

+NNNN- 1.00LPM @ 4Amps = 55 Watt Minutes/Litter
+NNN- 1.07LPM @ 11Amps = 141 Watt Minutes/Litter
+NN- 1.67LPM @ 20Amps = 164 Watt Minutes/Litter

+NNNNN- was too slow for practical measurements

So what happens if I put this in parallel? Here are those results:
+NNNN-NNNN+ 0.70LPM @ 7Amps = 137 Watt Minutes/Litter
+NNN-NNN+ 1.67LPM @ 14Amps = 115 Watt Minutes/Litter

Just to be clear – My test generator is a 13-plate flat plate design. The plates have 10.3 square inches exposed per side and are separated by 40 mills. I have an electrical connection to each plate so it’s just a matter of switching a few wires to create a new array. This does leave the remaining plates at one end in a neutral position. Since they appear to be out of the circuit I’m assuming this has no effect but that's just an assumption and short of disassembling the generator for each test it is the best I can do.

+NNNN- 1.00LPM @ 4Amps = 55 Watt Minutes/Litter

The above is saying you recieved 1lpm at 4 amps? Thats has to be a record. I dont think I have ever seen a liter per minute at 4 amps.

[HomeGrown]

1.23 volts is the minimum required energy to disassociate water molecules, scientifically proven many times

Stratous, you refered to this 1.23v number a few times, and say that anything over 1.23 is not utilized (other than to generate heat). It states that 1.23v is the MINIMUM required voltage. Wouldn't 2v produce MORE disassociation, or disassociation at a higher rate (i.e. more hho production), therefore not really be wasted as heat?

This is an interesting thread!

[Stratous]

Yes, I believe you are correct. I have been know to be wrong a time or two. I believe the correct response is @ 1.23 volts the dissasociation is the most efficient and anything over that is less efficient. More of the energy is converted to heat at 2volts vs 1.23volts. I suppose I should take more time to analyze what I type.

[HomeGrown]

Yes, I believe you are correct. I have been know to be wrong a time or two....

Oh, I don't think you're wrong at all! Sometimes I tend to over-alanyze things, which always leads to more questions. Thanks for clarifying, it sounds as though I should hook up my 7 cell tube generator in series and see what happens.

[stickittoopec]

Looks like I've been missing all the fun here. Neutral Plates in an open bath do very little if anything. The only way to use neutral plates and get them to produce HHO is to electrically isolate them and have your connections on either end but then they will no longer be neutral. In an open bath most, not all the current will simply go in the bath and around the neutral plates. The goal is to make all the plates work with as little heat as possible. A lot of this got started a few years ago when a guy that goes by Joe Cell in Australia put out a video that made the rounds to all the hydrogen sites showing what he called neutral plates. They were not neutral. It might still be out there you can do a search for Joe's Cell. If you have clearances less than 1/8 you might start to get some production but it won't be as efficient. Of course in a series cell even though the plates are not physically connected the are not neutral they are quite active as you can in the video. I had a cell that did not perform as I thought it should have so now it's a demo.
This is bits and pieces of video I used for notes and was not meant to be a show and tell but I thought it might apply to this discussion so I put some lipstick on that pig and here it is.
http://stickittoopec.com/video/Series%20Cell%20Demo.wmv

[dlw]

Seems like you could be right Stratous :) just .01v out though Linky (http://www.waterfuelcell.org/Low%20Voltage.html)

found this (http://www.volterra.com/vProducts/)
Maybe this could be used

Also is your Ram Diesel?

[mario brito]

A lot of this got started a few years ago when a guy that goes by Joe Cell in Australia put out a video that made the rounds to all the hydrogen sites showing what he called neutral plates. They were not neutral. It might still be out there you can do a search for Joe's Cell.

the objective of that joe cell is not to produce HHO, but to gather and maintain orgone energy wich they claim that can run an engine without any kind of fuel other then the power from the cell. there's some strange stories around that and not many have claimed to had sucess producing one. the cell goes by 3 stages and every step is crucial to sucess. if HHO production and its use is already thinking outside the box, a real joe cell would be thinking outside the planet...

thanks

[mneste8718]

Firstly, I was raised in a family of engineers and have worked with a good many architects over the years, while they have their place in life, they as a rule,do too much hypothesizing, theorizing, pontificating without any real life experience into what works and what does'nt. Get in there and get your hands dirty. I for one, started with one of those crappy "water4gas" spiral cells and started improving from there. (yes, I was one those suckers) But it did introduce me to some of the basic principles and yes, i have done my fair share researching, but there are so many opinions as to what works and what does'nt, it is hard to know which opnion is right. I can tell you what i have experienced, concerning the questions you pose.
1- yes
2- it does effect timing depending on hho output,but from what i have experienced not by much (i was producing 3.6 lpm and was able adjusting 2degrees and still keep power)
3-yes, a lean burn will make your engine run hotter. excess fuel is actually used to cool your cylinders under a load
4-no, the water vapors may cool your cylinder walls, but that is it, unless of course you were using a steam engine.ha!
5-and ther is just as many reports of a 1/2 l/m increases mpg by 30%-50%, once again the only way to know is to find out for yourself.
6-perhaps, but best way is to get a 1000 degree temp. guage and read exhaust manifold temps before and after the addition of hho
7- absolutely
8-who knows, i think it greatly depends the test subject(engine) and not all mpg test are done with objectivity. Hence the need for personal experimentation.

Finally, I have a good many freinds, family members, and experts in the automotive business here locally, waiting with baited breath to see the results of my experiments(mostly waiting to see if i blow something up, i think) yet will not get involved or wait in the wings saying to each other why they don't think it will work, many much smarter than this dumb old building contractor, and i just wonder, why want they just try it and maybe with many of their expertises, they could take this thing further than what i could. i think many in the automotive feild have been duped into thinking that the automotive giants and oil companies know what is best. when by the very nature of their business, it would certainly not be very good for business for fuel consumption to go down.

1973dodger


I have an EGT gauge in my car and I haven't noticed any measurable difference while cruising at the same speed with HHO on or off.

[BoyntonStu]

I have an EGT gauge in my car and I haven't noticed any measurable difference while cruising at the same speed with HHO on or off.

What is your before/after mpg?

Do yo0u efie or O2?

BoyntonStu

[mneste8718]

What is your before/after mpg?

Do yo0u efie or O2?

BoyntonStu

Before I would get 27ish on the hwy, now I am getting 36.28mpg.
I have open source tuning software for my car and I tuned to 15.6:1 AFR.

[c02cutter]

Actually the best generation I have seen any where is at 12v stepped up to 96v at 2 amp. This requires a good circuit and good caps to do. We simulated it with the supply voltage adjustable running at 20000hz. Our supply voltage was at 96 v to begin with in the simulation so we didn't need a step up circuit. We will release video soon on this as we are still testing this concept. The goal here for us is to be able to run a generator and maintain power for a welder. Just a play around circuit.

[stickittoopec]

Originally Posted by mario brito
the objective of that joe cell is not to produce HHO, but to gather and maintain orgone energy wich they claim that can run an engine without any kind of fuel other them the power from the cell. there's some strange stories around that and not many have claimed to had sucess producing one. the cell goes by 3 stages and every step is crucial to sucess. if HHO production and its use is already thinking outside the box, a real joe cell would be thinking outside the planet...

That is the way he is now, back in 2005 is when the other video was making the rounds. Before he lost it. Even then he didn't understand what was going on with the cell. He kept calling the cells neutral I guess because they were not physically hooked up. He had a ABS plastic corrugated drain pipe and cut some round disk to fit inside the deeper areas then hooked up to each end. A crude series cell, but it was still a series cell. Shortly after that neutral plates were showing up in designs everywhere.

[BoyntonStu]

Before I would get 27ish on the hwy, now I am getting 36.28mpg.
I have open source tuning software for my car and I tuned to 15.6:1 AFR.


Did you retard the timing?

Have you measured mpg with the tuning and without Hydroxy?

Have you measure mpg with Hydroxy but without tuning?

BoyntonStu

[mneste8718]

Did you retard the timing?

Have you measured mpg with the tuning and without Hydroxy?

Have you measure mpg with Hydroxy but without tuning?

BoyntonStu


Read my other thread...

and no I didn't retard the timing, imo I think it is pointless and will yield in drop in power and efficiency. We just aren't producing enough to offset the timing of the gasoline. This is just my opinion though...

[BoyntonStu]

Actually the best generation I have seen any where is at 12v stepped up to 96v at 2 amp. This requires a good circuit and good caps to do. We simulated it with the supply voltage adjustable running at 20000hz. Our supply voltage was at 96 v to begin with in the simulation so we didn't need a step up circuit. We will release video soon on this as we are still testing this concept. The goal here for us is to be able to run a generator and maintain power for a welder. Just a play around circuit.

Best generation _____liters/minute with 96V and 2 A?

Cell plate count and wiring?

Electrolyte and concentration

Thanks,

BoyntonStu

[mario brito]

That is the way he is now, back in 2005 is when the other video was making the rounds. Before he lost it. Even then he didn't understand what was going on with the cell. He kept calling the cells neutral I guess because they were not physically hooked up. He had a ABS plastic corrugated drain pipe and cut some round disk to fit inside the deeper areas then hooked up to each end. A crude series cell, but it was still a series cell. Shortly after that neutral plates were showing up in designs everywhere.

i didn't know that and i apologise. i thought you were confusing the two types. thanks for the info :)

thanks

[stickittoopec]

i didn't know that and i apologise. i thought you were confusing the two types. thanks for the info :)

thanks

No need to apologize I should have referenced the year. I've been at this for 3 or 4 years and forget that some of my references are before other people got started with this.
By the way Mario your English is better than a lot of people that live here, for whom English is supposed to be their first language.

[bobcampbell]

+NNNN- 1.00LPM @ 4Amps = 55 Watt Minutes/Litter

The above is saying you recieved 1lpm at 4 amps? Thats has to be a record. I dont think I have ever seen a liter per minute at 4 amps.

Your electric bill is charged by Kilo Watt Hours. A watt minute is just a smaller amount of energy. A watt is a measurement of power and a watt minute is the amount. Here is my formula for the 55 watt minutes / litter.

Amps = 4A
Volts = 13.7V
Watts = 4 *13.7 = 54.8W
Minutes per litter = 1MPL
Watt minutes per litter = 1MPL * 54.8 = 54.8 WM/L

1 Min * 54.8 W
---------------- = 54.8WM/L
1 Litter

The next measurement
11Amp * 13.7V = 150.7W
Minutes per litter = 0.93MPL This equalls 1.07 LPM
Watt Minutes / Litter = 0.93 * 150.7W = 141 WM/L

0.93 Min .* 150.7 W
---------------- = 141 WM/L
1 Litter


If you state that you used 150.7 Watts and created 1.07 LPM then you would divide 150.7 by 1.07 litters. The "time" it took is being left out and it’s no big deal because we all know what we are talking about. But I feel that the most accurate way to state the results is in Watt Minutes. It quantifies the amount of power.


As for the 1 LPM at 4 amps, I made a typo. It's 0.5 LPM. I think I had the number of amps in my head when I wrote that figure. Thank you for calling me on it.

Here is the math:

4Amp * 13.7V = 54.8W
Minutes per litter = 2 MPL
Watt Minutes / Litter = 2 * 54.8W = 109.6 WM/L

2 Min .* 54.8 W 109.6 WM
---------------- = -----------
1 Litter 1 Litter


Thank you,
Bob Campbell

[Stratous]

Ok, I have now hit my ceiling. If 12V @ 1Amp is 12 watts. What is the amount of time that it takes to use the 12watts? Is it measured in seconds, minutes, hours? How long does it take for a 100watt light bulb to use 100 watts of power?

[Stratous]

If I understand correctly, it takes 1 hour for a 100 watt light bulb to use 100 watts. Is this correct?

[mario brito]

Ok, I have now hit my ceiling. If 12V @ 1Amp is 12 watts. What is the amount of time that it takes to use the 12watts? Is it measured in seconds, minutes, hours? How long does it take for a 100watt light bulb to use 100 watts of power?

i believe that Amps are always measured in hours. but i'm not the best person for this answer.

[mario brito]

ops, i was wrong !

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ampere

[BoyntonStu]

If I understand correctly, it takes 1 hour for a 100 watt light bulb to use 100 watts. Is this correct?


It takes 1 second for a 100 Watt bulb to "use" 100 Watt-seconds of power.


That is why a 100 Watt bulb burns brighter than a 60 Watt bulb.

The bulb is running AT 100 Watts from the moment of turn on.

If it ran for 10 hours, it would consume a Kilo-Watt Hour of power.

BoyntonStu

[mario brito]

from wiki :

"Confusion of watts and watt-hours
Power and energy are frequently confused in the general media. Power is the rate at which energy is used. A watt is one joule of energy per second. For example, if a 100 watt light bulb is turned on for one hour, the energy used is 100 watt-hours or 0.1 kilowatt-hour, or 360,000 joules. This same quantity of energy would light a 40 watt bulb for 2.5 hours. A power station would be rated in watts, but its annual energy sales would be in watt-hours (or kilowatt-hours or megawatt-hours). A kilowatt-hour is the amount of energy equivalent to a steady power of 1 kilowatt running for 1 hour:

(1 kW·h)(1000 W/kW)(3600 s/h) = 3,600,000 W·s = 3,600,000 J = 3.6 MJ."

[Stratous]

It takes 1 second for a 100 Watt bulb to "use" 100 Watt-seconds of power.


That is why a 100 Watt bulb burns brighter than a 60 Watt bulb.

The bulb is running AT 100 Watts from the moment of turn on.

If it ran for 10 hours, it would consume a Kilo-Watt Hour of power.

BoyntonStu


I must be dense because that doesnt make sense to me. 1 second for 100 watts = 360000 watts per hour? Or if I read a book for 5 hours under a 100 watt bulb, I would have consumed 500 watts, correct? which then would be 1Kwatt for 10 hours.

[Stratous]

I must be dense because that doesnt make sense to me. 1 second for 100 watts = 360000 watts per hour? Or if I read a book for 5 hours under a 100 watt bulb, I would have consumed 500 watts, correct? which then would be 1Kwatt for 10 hours.


Ok, so 1w/hour is 3600 watts? which means an electrolyzer consuming 50 watts would use 180000 watts or .5w/h is this correct?

[BoyntonStu]

I must be dense because that doesnt make sense to me. 1 second for 100 watts = 360000 watts per hour? Or if I read a book for 5 hours under a 100 watt bulb, I would have consumed 500 watts, correct? which then would be 1Kwatt for 10 hours.

The kilowatt hour, also written kilowatt-hour,[1] (symbol kW·h, kW h or kWh) is a unit of energy.[2]

Energy delivered by electric utilities is usually expressed and charged for in kWh.

The kilowatt hour is not used in the International System of Units (SI); the SI unit of energy is the joule (J), equal to one watt - second.

Note that the kWh is the product of power in kilowatts multiplied by time in hours; it is not kW/h.


BoyntonStu

[bobcampbell]

What was the source voltage?
Efficiency is best compared and stated with units of liters per minute per Watt. I don't know what a Watt Minute/Liter is.


The source voltage is two large batteries in my diesel truck with a small 10A battery charger attached so that I can continue to draw from the batteries and still start the truck in the morning. It supplies 13.7 Volts

I hope the explanation of Watt Minutes that I gave earlier today made sense. It's just a more precise way of expressing a unit of work.
This is the amount of energy transferred if work is done at an average rate of one watt for one minute.

Bob Campbell

[bobcampbell]

i believe that Amps are always measured in hours. but i'm not the best person for this answer.


Wow this topic has taken on a life of it's own.. Yeah you have it. Batteries are measured in Amp Hours. With batteries it is assumed that the voltage will be 12v or whatever it is for that type of battery. Electricity is sold in Kilo Watt Hour. It is the amount of work that can be done using 1000 watts for one hour. A Watt minute is the amount of work that can be done in one minute using one watt.

If you look at the math formulas that I gave as examples you will notice that there is a unit of time multiplied by the number of watts divided by volume.

Hence it is Watt Minutes per Litter. It's nothing to worry about as the figures everyone uses are always assumed to be per minute. This is just a more precise description.

Bob Campbell

[bobcampbell]

If I understand correctly, it takes 1 hour for a 100 watt light bulb to use 100 watts. Is this correct?


The light bulb uses 100 Watts. The amount of energy it uses depends on how long it uses 100W. If it is left on for 10 hours it will use 1 Kilo Watt Hour.

Respectfully,
Bob Campbell