SS wire or SS plate?

[shortstack]

i was wondering which one would produce more HHO (which on is better).

one like this
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f384/gdm62/water41.jpg

or like this?
http://i5.ebayimg.com/02/i/001/00/0a/c57b_1.JPG


is it the more surface area that helps it produce more? thanks in advanced

[Stratous]

plate provides alot mor surface area and has shown to produce more hydrogen with less heat and amp draw. Plates will also last alot longer

[daveczrn]

yea... what he said.

[Smith03Jetta]

I agree that more surface area will produce more gas with less heat but to give him the benefit of a doubt, has anybody done the math to determine how much active surface area a particular plate setup has compared to a wire setup?

Calculating the surface area of a flat plate is easy. L x W. Producing side only...;)

Calculating the surface area of a wire is done using the following formula.

L=
Total length of wire in contact with water.

D=
#20 gauge wire (.0320" dia.)
#19 = 0.0359
#18 = 0.0403
#17 = 0.0453
#16 = 0.0508
#15 = 0.0571
#14 = 0.0641
#13 = 0.0720
#12 = 0.0808
#11 = 0.0907
#10 = 0.1019
#9 = 0.1144
#8 = 0.1285
#7 = 0.1443
#6 = 0.1620
#5 = 0.1819
#4 = 0.2043

Surface area = Pi*(wire dia.)(length of wire in inches)

or = (3.14159)*(.032) *(L)

Example: Let's say you are using 20 feet of #18 wire. Take the number of feet and multiply by 12. Formula is below.

3.14159 * 0.0403 * 20 * 12 = 30.38545848 in/sq.

That is the equivalent of the surface area of two 3x5 plates facing each other.

I really don't know what gauge and length of wire is being used on any given spiral design. Please post some numbers so we will be educated.


Now you can take this formula and input your wire diameter and the length to get the surface area of your wire design.

You can compare the potential output to any given plate design by calculating the producing surface area of the plate design.

My plate design has 208 in/sq of producing surface area using 3.5x6 plates. About 2 square inches are covered up with Zip tie plastic in my design.

A typical Smacks generator has 190 sq/inches of producing area including surface area covered up by plastic washers. I'm guessing about 8 sq/inches are blocked by plastic washers

[Smith03Jetta]

On March 10, 2008, in reply to some comments, Ozzie Freedom wrote (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Hydroxy/message/11440):

Good question. Water4Gas has such low production per jar that it is hard to measure... It's about 1 LPH, per jar, if you're lucky. Now if you use my 6-pack design, you may be able to multiply that by 10-12 times. If you done it right. Is that little? "Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn", said Clark Gable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ_lmVrRUVY

Why don't I give a damn? And why shouldn't you? Because results talk, and the rest walks. That's why Water4Gas is all over the place: we talk results and we talk simplicity rather than science. I'm not against ANY member of this forum who knows a lot more than myself, and definitely more than the public. And I love science. But I know that THE PUBLIC needs and wants results.

How come my 6-pack boosts Carter Blankenship's truck, a 12.7 liter turbo-charged giant, by 26%? Do you think I can explain that? If I needed to explain WHY or even HOW it works, I'd be out of business 2 years ago. I have only a faint clew how it works. But I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that these results are real. The "new" science is RESULTS=SCIENTIFIC TRUTH. If you think this is BS, try to tell it to the people sending me their success stories or bringing their vehicles over to show me successful installations.

Regarding the coil, it does NOT get hot one bit! Why would it get hot? There's hardly any current going thru the wire - the current jumps thru the electrolyte, not thru the wires. And 2 amps is nothing anyway. The coil is used for two main reasons: (1) it can be manufactured cheaply by hand, and (2) it produces a magnetic field that helps split the water thus reducing energy input requirements. It was the genius of Bill Lang to gamble on this design.

So when you ask "Can any body explain, how their system works?", that's a valid question! I want to know too! I'll accept any sound explanation on HOW IT DOES WORK. However, as you may have guessed, I have zero interest in how IT DOES NOT WORK. Because there no such question. Arguing with success is dead end futile.

Right now our yearly sales exceed 4.5 mil. Yes, US dollars. And refunds dropped from 1-2% to near zero. The 1-week-old "Water4Gas University" already has 4,800 active students and growing by 500 students a day. You can envy water4gas, or curse our mothers and so forth, or you can join the revolution and be part of the success by promoting us for a fat profit share.

Again, there is NOTHING wrong with any other design or direction, we're all supporting each other in more ways than one. Boyce design and Smack's design, between others, are excellent! All that Water4Gas is doing is cutting the complexity down to exactly the entry level the public needs. Anybody with NO MACHINES, with two broken pliers and half a brain, can build a jar with some wires inside. And get results. Now. Not when they are wise and skilled. Just now.

And the next step is, they'll be ready for your better and higher designs. Because we're opening the doors for your better systems by bringing the belief level back from the dead."

:D:DNow I don't agree with much of Ozzie's rhetoric. I posted this only to show what levels of Hydrogen output the water4gas systems are designed to produce. You heard it straight from the horse's (Ozzie's) mouth.:D:D

What I don't understand is how you can multiply a number by 6 and get a result 10 to 12 times that amount.

According to Ozzie's statement... "Now if you use my 6-pack design, you may be able to multiply that by 10-12 times"
Let's say you are producing .1 liter a minute. You hook up 6 cells in series and all of a sudden you are getting 1.2 liters per minute. The math just doesn't make sense. I think he's terminally stupid.

Rich, yes, but still stupider than a box of hammers........

[dennis13030]

plate provides alot mor surface area and has shown to produce more hydrogen with less heat and amp draw. Plates will also last alot longer

I agree completely. More ACTIVE surface area is always better.

[RMForbes]

I'm not a big fan of the Water4Gas movement because I see them as the opposite of what we are doing as the open source movement. They are aggressively marketing their products through spam blasts and operate as a multi-level-marketing site for their products. Yes, their generator plans may work to a limited degree and they are very simple to reproduce but it's a very poor and even dangerous design. All it will take is for someone to be gravely injured or killed by a glass jar exploding and their movement will be destroyed. I fear they will take us with them when that happens.

[dennis13030]

http://i5.ebayimg.com/02/i/001/00/0a/c57b_1.JPG

Thats a great pix! A very clean design.

[shortstack]

i was wondering if theirs any good write-up on making SS plate's for the mason jar? thanks

[EltonBrandd]

Thats a great pix! A very clean design.

Looks like and ebay picture :)

[EltonBrandd]

i was wondering if theirs any good write-up on making SS plate's for the mason jar? thanks

After falling well short of my expectations with the w4gas design I adapted the jar design to accommodate a 7 plate design. I guess I just wanted to see the bubbles, the main problem with these stupid jars are the lids leak and they tend to melt easily. But by all means go ahead a build a plate design in the jar then when the novelty wears off you should build a smack's booster.
http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf

[dennis13030]

After falling well short of my expectations with the w4gas design I adapted the jar design to accommodate a 7 plate design. I guess I just wanted to see the bubbles, the main problem with these stupid jars are the lids leak and they tend to melt easily. But by all means go ahead a build a plate design in the jar then when the novelty wears off you should build a smack's booster.
http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/Smack.pdf

Many things considered, I like the smack's booster too.

[EltonBrandd]

Many things considered, I like the smack's booster too.

I highly recommend it for a first or second time builder. It has the best of many worlds when you consider ease of build, output, readily available parts. And it has FREE instructions. I guess I got $99 worth of education from Ozzie Freedom. Now I'm really learning how to build.

[shortstack]

the problem is that i just don't have alot of room in the explorer (98, 4.0L sohc)

[EltonBrandd]

the problem is that i just don't have alot of room in the explorer (98, 4.0L sohc)

Look in the fender liners (wheel wells) they allways have room, usually in front of the wheels.

[shortstack]

^^ true which it would make it hard to refill it.

i just got this SS plate that will fit in the jar, what do you guys think
supposedly it will do 2 lpm at 15 amps w/KoH and distilled water
This cell has 4 pos+ and 4 neg- and 4 nuteral plates, HHO hydrogen fuel cell (12)2"x3" 304 stainless steel plates 16 gauge. i'm guessing it goes +n-+n-+n-+n-
here's a picture
http://i16.ebayimg.com/04/i/001/00/16/6532_1.JPG

i kinda doubt it will do 2lpm but who know's we'll see

[EltonBrandd]

^^ true which it would make it hard to refill it.

i just got this SS plate that will fit in the jar, what do you guys think
supposedly it will do 2 lpm at 15 amps w/KoH and distilled water
This cell has 4 pos+ and 4 neg- and 4 nuteral plates, HHO hydrogen fuel cell (12)2"x3" 304 stainless steel plates 16 gauge. i'm guessing it goes +n-+n-+n-+n-
here's a picture
http://i16.ebayimg.com/04/i/001/00/16/6532_1.JPG

i kinda doubt it will do 2lpm but who know's we'll see

I like the way that is set up. I've never seen that configuration in action. Make sure you seal the lid with goop. Use teflon tape on the threads. After you bolt it to the lid apply goop around the threads below the cap, this keep gas from coming through the threads. And do yourself a favor and don't use manifold vacuum, it will ruin the lid when it gets warm. You might want to wrap the plates with shrink wrap to eliminate electrical leakage. And use 3/8 tubing, 1/4 may not be enough.

[shortstack]

here is how i have it now
http://i38.tinypic.com/v4zey8.jpg
here is where its tied into the vacuum line
http://i37.tinypic.com/9zotxe.jpg
their are 2 1/4" tubes (i think) one goes into vacuum and one ties into intake.

how does this look/seem? i'm putting the plates instead of the "cheap wire" setup

[HYDROTEKPRO]

This is a rather late answer to an earlier post here on this thread.

I bought the Water4Gas deal. I am very glad I did. It is a HUGE resource of information, including the HHO production data for cars and trucks. There is quite a bit more, other information, which is quite excellent as well.

Water4Gas, AND OTHER COMPANIES DOING PRACTICALLY THE SAME THING are making it safe for HHO technology to become common knowledge, and common practice. BIG OIL can't go out and murder or intimidate the hundreds of thousands of people doing this right now, we're all over the world!!

Sure, this site is FREE, that's just swell. What matters is this: How many people are YOU introducing to this technology, say, everyday for example?? That's the difference. And I'd bet probably at least 5% to 10% of the members here are Water4Gas customers like me.

I personally know people with those glass mason jars under their hoods, and they are extremely pleased with their results, they have virtually doubled their mileage! If OZZIE says a 6-pack will increase gas output by a factor of 10, I believe him.

:mad:It's really wrong to slam them, they are helping us, and they are helping the planet in a very big way. They, and the other companies like theirs, are making HHO technology common knowledge, AND COMMON PRACTICE. We should be so industrious and helpful in the same, fell swoop!

[Smith03Jetta]

I'm not arguing that he has helped to make HHO mainstream. The thing that I'm arguing with is his complete ignorance of how his "Jars" work, how much Hydrogen they produce, How simple mathematics works and other things.

"I don't know how this works, It just does, I can multiply 1 by 6 and get 12?":confused:

I would think that if he has sold millions of dollars of something that he would know more about his product, how it works, etc. This guy is not the messiah of gas mileage.

Just like I posted earlier. Has anybody calculated their surface area on the wire design? If so, post your information.

Is anybody getting First Hand gas mileage savings using water4gas? Post your results. I've posted every freaking detail of my project, good and bad. I want somebody to put up or shut up.

[smartHHO]

I was wondering Mr. Smith if you read any of his documentation. I have gotten my hands on the doctumentation that he provided and he did do some experimentation with his 6 pack. From what I can see, he has a series parallel circuit for his 6 jars. So, thus if you know how electronics work, it is entirely possible for him to get the 10 - 12 out of his 6 pack. When you start putting electronics in series parallel, it is not just a matter of this times this. And if he says by his book, that he has found that method to be the best for his 6 pack, then until someone here on this forum says it does not work the best, due to proof, one can not knock his verbage. He is trying to get the word and and make a buck or two in the process. This is America, and small bussiness is what made this country strong.

Hope this clears up some of your math :)

[Farmercal]

I got my hands on his eBook as well and it is probably the poorest written document I have ever read. It jumps all over the place spitting out facts about this is necessary and that is a must but never goes into detail at to why.

I built his device and used in my vehicle and I got worse gas mileage after installation than before. I am modifying his design to mimic a system I saw that was similar and trying different voltages to see if the design can work at all. If the next design fails, I am moving to the smacks style booster.

One thing I can say about Water4gas is it sparked my interest in HHO and it was responsible for me becoming a member of this forum and learning how to really build a working device. When I get something to work I will post my positive results in an effort to help others duplicate it in their vehicle.

As far as building and mounting 6 of those devices in my car, all I can say is WHERE? There is barely enough room for one device yet alone six.

[smartHHO]

The 6 pack design was mainly for the SEMI truck. I really don't think you would need that much production unless you were running a big truck or trying to maybe attempt to run a car on 100pct water. I have seen video of a Phillipino that claims to have a toyota that runs on water. But unless I actually got to check the car out. I am a bit shceptical.

As for all of the people out there, especially water4gas, they are sparking interest, especially mine. I plan on experimenting as all of you, but I am still waiting on my Smart. Thus, my first trial run will be my 95 F150.

[bat]

I had some interest in water4gas and I almost bought the e books. Then I saw the sales pitch offering me half the sales price to promote the unit...Right away I got a sour taste about it.

I liked the simplicity of the unit but I didnt like the idea of a glass mason jar. (still dont).

Then I found h20fueltechnology who builds about the same unit, but puts it in a pvc container. In his video he shares how to build it for free, just as many at this site share their knowledge for newbies like me.

One of the best units out there (in my humble opinion)is the smacks. He'll sell you one, but he also has a 14 page complete manual you can download for free. Thats my next step.

Those who can afford a $49 unit for $97 should buy it. Thank you, I'll pass.

[EltonBrandd]

To whom it may concern.
This "Ozzie freedom" is nothing but an opportunist. He saw this hho thing as an up and coming thing and immediately stole other peoples designs and literature and quickly rolled out his pyramid scheme. He is so misleading when he advertises "Possibly double, sometimes even triple your mileage". It gives the public a feeling of deceit, like a real snake oil salesmen. If he was such a humanitarian he wouldn't be selling this "free energy". If It it so important to the environment that we use w4gas then Ozzie should be ashamed for withholding the world changing solution.

[shortstack]

well got that new cell in today, the bolt didn't exactly mount up so i decided to make a new one, out of 4" abs, its about 6" tall. here are some pictures.
http://i34.tinypic.com/v61z0y.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/e0qrza.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/2vm7b43.jpg

here is a video of it running ,( showing using a bubble) it does really well, very happy. this should definatlly show some improvement in my MPG, compared to the crappy old one
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MSSP93KdUec&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MSSP93KdUec&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[shortstack]

well went on a trip today, 1/2 teaspoon of baking soda with distilled water. and it blew the 25 amp fews, not sure when but might try to play with different electrolytes. anyone have info on how to keep[ volts down?

[countryboy18]

ya use less baking soda. try just water see what the cell is pulling. then just slowly increese the amount of baking soda. or try using KOH or NaOH it workes better!

[DigitalMocking]

If OZZIE says a 6-pack will increase gas output by a factor of 10, I believe him.


So if I use ozzy math, if I have one beer, and I buy a 6 pack, I actually get 10 - 12 beers?

C'mon dude, you sound like a plant working for water4gas.

[redneckgearhead34]

I used 19 gauge 316SS welding wire and I must say it is sucking. Almost no HHO production what so ever

[Smith03Jetta]

I don't operate on "Possibly", "Sometimes" or "Maybe". That Water4Gas document has more uncertainty in it than the Platform of the National Democratic Party.

There's no way in hell that putting two cells in series can produce more gas than the sum of two running in parallel. Maybe you can make gas at lower voltage or amps but 1 plus 1 don't equal 4.

[redneckgearhead34]

I have to agree. The water4gas design in far unsuperior to the smacks design. I have one currently installed in my truck a and it is just pathetic. But i do have to give ozzie credit for sparking my interest and I must say i am thouroghly enjoying my experiece with these devices.

[EltonBrandd]

Have you seen "Ozzie Freedom's" latest racket? Gas4free? What a tool. A new front every so often to keep his pyramid solid. And i love the "Ozzie math". I wish it worked for my paychecks.

[FuzzyTomCat]

Have you seen "Ozzie Freedom's" latest racket? Gas4free? What a tool. A new front every so often to keep his pyramid solid. And i love the "Ozzie math". I wish it worked for my paychecks.

Hey EltonBrandd,

A little tid bit about "Ozzie Freedom" http://www.aardvark.co.nz/ozzie_freedom.shtml from the not so famous Bruce Simpson of the famed or busted $1,000,000.00 HHO challenge fraud.

Fuzzy