Need some guidance on designing a cell for my car [Archive]

Trike

09-16-2009, 12:28 PM

Hi, When I found out about HHO, I was pretty excited that I could save some $. I was also excited that I could build/tinker with something pretty cool. My commute is ~60 miles/day, mostly freeway, but going home I hit quite a bit of traffic for about 5-8 miles.

I have done some reading about dry cells but obviously not enough. I have a few questions and if anyone can point me in the right direction (links, guides, etc) it would be greatly appreciated.

Some info about my car. It's a 95 Acura Integra LS with a B18B1 1.8L. It has a 90Amp Alternator. I will have full control over the stock computer to lean out/retard timing. I will be using crome to change the settings. I will also be ordering a EGT and a wideband o2 sensor to monitor cylinder temp and AFR.

I need to design a dry cell or two for my motor. Some questions I have are:

I'd like to build a cell with high hho output, but I don't know how much is too much for the motor/alternator. Seems like there are a lot of people with around 2Lpm output. If I built a generator that can output 3-4Lpm, would I be able to make full use out of it?

I'm still unsure what size and number of plates I would need to make an efficient cell and not draw too much current. Is there a proven design that I can base it off of?

How much current draw is too much where the cons outweigh the benefits? I like overkill. But if I can't make use of the HHO or the current draw is too high, there's no point in building a cell with high output.

These are some very general/basic questions that i'm sure has been answered many times. If you can point me in the right direction or the correct words to search for, it would be greatly appreciated.

I'm sure I'll have more questions later. :)

Thanks! I'm excited to start designing/building this.

biggy boy

09-16-2009, 03:23 PM

Welcome to the forum Trike!!

Crome, does that run on a PC/laptop computer?

Buster

09-16-2009, 04:28 PM

Here are some good plans for a drycell from the legendary Smack.

http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/BB%20Smack%20Document.pdf

He is usually pretty up together with his designs, and is always trying to improve the technology.
I would recommend having a +NNNNN-NNNNN+ plate configuration instead of his 16 plates shown in his plans, as this will be safer and more effective when used with a PWM, which you will need to experiment with to get the best results. Unrestricted a 13Plate cell will draw over 50A and cause more trouble than it's worth, so I would use a PWM.
Just remember that more HHO is not necessarily better when running of the vehicle's electrics, and if you stress the cell out too much you'll end up overheating it and evaporating your water and wasting energy.
I would try a 20A setting and record results, then increase & decrease by a few amps and check MPG results again.
Good luck and Welcome!!
-Buster

jerrygoldsmith

09-16-2009, 04:44 PM

I met a guy in town that did his that way, and he has some fancy sensors installed that tell him his estimated MPG with and without HHO, and he has a controller that lets him actively adjust how much HHO and current get put in at any given time.

He told me he popped that system in and out of the cars of his freinds and family to help them with theirs, to more quickly find out the 'right' mixture as he can do it on the fly, with both HHO quantity and Current.

And the BEST part was he had bright blue LED's all over everything. Who cared if it worked.... it had BLUE LED's!!!! :D

Trike

09-16-2009, 05:12 PM

Welcome to the forum Trike!!

Crome, does that run on a PC/laptop computer?

Thanks!

yup, it's a software tuning program to edit the honda ecu rom files, or do real time tuning if you have a emulator attached to it. The emulator is too expensive for my needs. I'm going to datalog then edit the rom, and re-burn the chip.

Buster,

Thanks for the info! So you feel a 13 plate two cell design should be more than adequate in terms of HHO production? Is the reason you went with a 7 plate cell, is that it will give 2v's per plate? I'll look into a PWM module as well to regulate it.

JerryGoldSmith,

Yeah, I have a MPGduino on order as well to tell me MPG. it measures the vehicle speed and injector duty cycle to calculate the MPG.

biggy boy

09-16-2009, 06:23 PM

biggy boy

09-16-2009, 06:25 PM

Thanks!

yup, it's a software tuning program to edit the honda ecu rom files, or do real time tuning if you have a emulator attached to it. The emulator is too expensive for my needs. I'm going to datalog then edit the rom, and re-burn the chip.

Does it only work with Hondas or will it work with other cars?

I have the Scanguage for mileage....

Trike

09-16-2009, 06:47 PM

Does it only work with Hondas or will it work with other cars?

I have the Scanguage for mileage....

Yup, only works with obd1 honda ecu's (http://www.tunewithcrome.com/). It's pretty cheap to get setup for modiying a honda obd1 ecu. About $20 bucks to chip the ECU, a datalog cable ($30), rom burner ($85), Software is free.

biggy boy

09-16-2009, 06:50 PM

Yup, only works with obd1 honda ecu's (http://www.tunewithcrome.com/). It's pretty cheap to get setup for modiying a honda obd1 ecu. About $20 bucks to chip the ECU, a datalog cable ($30), rom burner ($85), Software is free.

COOL Sounds like your got it made man :cool:
Now all you need is some blue LEDs!!

Glen

cabrera

09-16-2009, 06:54 PM

Also don't use baking soda for an electrolyte. A better choice is KOH (Potassium Hydroxide). Here's a link to a good supplier who is relatively inexpensive

http://www.essentialdepot.com/servlet/the-14/biodiesel,-biofuel,-bio-diesel,/Detail

Buster

09-16-2009, 06:55 PM

Thanks!

yup, it's a software tuning program to edit the honda ecu rom files, or do real time tuning if you have a emulator attached to it. The emulator is too expensive for my needs. I'm going to datalog then edit the rom, and re-burn the chip.

Buster,

Thanks for the info! So you feel a 13 plate two cell design should be more than adequate in terms of HHO production? Is the reason you went with a 7 plate cell, is that it will give 2v's per plate? I'll look into a PWM module as well to regulate it.

JerryGoldSmith,

Yeah, I have a MPGduino on order as well to tell me MPG. it measures the vehicle speed and injector duty cycle to calculate the MPG.

Yes, the 13 plate config will give a better volt per plate than Smack's 16 plate plan does. He gives those plans because it makes for a 'calmer' cell, so can run without a PWM. But it is possibly better for your situation to have a higher outputting cell (ie a 13 plate one) and just restrict the top end Amp draw with a PWM.
It will give you a lot more scope to test different litres per minute outputs.
With the 2x8 cell, all you'll get is a half litre rising to about 0.7 lpm when it's warm enough. Also, Smacks two centre plates being one positive and one negative to keep magnetic fields in alignment for improved efficiency, can be problematic, even dangerous, due to potential shorting between them, so that is why I recommended the configuration I did.
Finally, I would personally have an equalisation hole to allow filling the cell from the bottom, as it makes life a lot, lot easier than Smack's top filling mechanism. You can offset the holes if current flow is a concern, though I'm not sure whether this actually works in practice.
Hopefully this all makes some sense to you. Good luck.

biggy boy

09-16-2009, 07:32 PM

Smack's two centre plates being one positive and one negative to keep magnetic fields in alignment for improved efficiency, can be problematic, even dangerous, due to potential shorting between them, so that is why I recommended the configuration I did.

It looks like the smack man has stopped doing the two plate in the center thing because of the issue you have described. He talks about it in one of his
videos.
Yes I would agree the top fill, though that fill tube does seam like a pain.
I have my 3x 6cell smack ready to assemble, but I'm worried about the filling method!?!?

Buster

09-17-2009, 09:44 AM

I've got a lot of respect for Smack. He tries his best against a tide of negative people.He does get it wrong sometimes but I don't think he should be attacked for that. We need more people who are willing to have a go at things. It's easy to do nothing and criticize, like so many do.

We tried the top fill and dropped it as it is too much hassle, plus the tube can even cause shorting as it can get fouled up with sediment around the drip holes.
I'd advise the bottom fill 'equalisation hole' method. You have probably seen this type of cell as a lot of manufacturers seem to go for it. Alternating which side the bottom hole is on is thought to reduce the current taking the easy route through the holes instead of the plate, but I never got to test the theory. Has anyone else here tested it?

Conditioning/cleansing the cell is supposed to be best done with a strong Sodium Hydroxide mix. When fully cleaned and conditioned with the Sodium Hydroxide the mix can be swapped for Potassium Hydroxide, as it is not 'used up' during electrolysis, in theory at least.

When doing an HHO project for the first time, I highly recommend being ultra cautious with every step of the way. A lot can go wrong from running the cell on the bench, all the way to getting it configured in the car. It's no fun having an HHO explosion, burning your hands on electrolyte or breaking down in the middle of nowhere!!
-words spoken by a reckless man of experience!! LOL

Helz_McFugly

09-17-2009, 09:55 AM

not to hijac this thread but while on the same subject I wanted to ask about a dry cell im thinking of building
+nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+
fill hole on bottom, output hole on top.
and using a PWM
plates will be 7"x7" but after gaskets are installed only about 6"x6" will be production surface I think thats 1728 sq inches if you count back and front of the plates that are wet. Im not sure if you calc a 6x6 plate as having 36 si of surface or 72 if both sides are being used??? need some help on that ?
does this seem like it would be an efficient cell? or can someone with more expierence with dry cells give me a better configuration for a high output cell that can run off the output of the cars electonics.

Buster

09-17-2009, 02:35 PM

I've just done two cells almost exactly like that, apart from being 6"x6" plates instead.

That configuration is probably ideal for a medium size truck. It will try to draw about 120A if you don't restrict it, which you are anyway with the PWM so long as it actually has a control for amps, not just for duty cycle like a lot seem to have.
Also, if you take the surface area actually covered with electrolyte you will probably have about 6"x6". This is 36" square per plate in a 'series', ie yours will be a 7series (-NNNNN+). The recommended minimum square inches per plate per amp is between 2 and 4 square inches per amp. So, your 36"square plate coverage area should allow you to run at between 9A and 18A per series. So the cell having 4 series will mean that it should be ran at a total of between 36A and 72A. This is what's recommended anyway.
You'll need to think about your supply as to how far you should push the amps to, but if it's just from the alternator you might find you need to keep the amps low for best MPG.
Secondary batteries would get over that though.

Have just installed oner cell in a 4000cc+ truck which is presently set up to run at 35A and it's performing well on it. I am awaiting MPG feedback but it was doing only 12MPEuropeanGallon before fitting. We'll be adjusting the amps in the normal way to see if we can get more MPG out of it. I'll post the results when I get them in, though they won't be at all scientific as the driver is presently enjoying the added performance he's getting.:mad:

Helz_McFugly

09-17-2009, 02:44 PM

thank you for the input. what would be a ballpark figure for you to build me the cell Im thinking of if you were to use 6"x6" rather then 7x7. that just seems like alot of amps. maybe cutting it down to 6x6 leaving 5x5 being wet?

I have a 3.5 liter V6 engine and Ide like to get 3.5LPM of HHO yet have the capability to get 6 or 7ish should i want to amp it up.

biggy boy

09-17-2009, 03:27 PM

Humm, maybe I will abandon the top fill and drill holes in the plates at the bottom.
Man the little holes staggered at the bottom of the cell, can't cut down the efficiency that much can it?

Thanks very much for your input buster!

OH ya my plates are 8 inch x 10 inch with a 5/8Th's wide gasket.

+nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-

The PWM I'm making has three power mosfets one for each cell.
I'm using Zero Fossil Fuel's schematic from his site.

Glen

Trike

09-17-2009, 03:33 PM

Buster

09-17-2009, 03:51 PM

Heltz, the 6"x6" plates we use make this size cell good for up to around 50A, or about 3.5litres HHO per minute, calmly, which is OK if you're going solely off the vehicles electrics, but you may want more potential if you decide that backup battery power is a good way to go with it. But even then, one kit for the vehicles electrics and a totally separate independently run one would still probably be the way to go. So, stopping myself from waffling, the 7x7 cell is a little overkill for running off the vehicles electrics alone, whereas 6x6 would bring it more in line with how much power your car has to spare from a MPG efficiency point of view.

Now, I expect that US prices are lower than UK (I think the materials are cheaper there to start with) and postage from here to the US is extortionate, Plus the $ is getting hammered thanks to the Illuminatti shadow government dictators there. LOL (but true!), so I doubt that I would be anywhere near what you could get this cell built for locally, so again I think we're beat on this. That said, I will send you a private message price, just for a guide really, as I don't want someone to call me on this price over here.

Buster

09-17-2009, 05:08 PM

Thank you Buster for all the great informative posts, it really is helping me out and solidifying a lot of un-answered details I had. As for offsetting the ports, do you mean just having a port on top and bottom? For example, should they look like the ones I have linked below?

Thanks cabrera, for the KOH source!

Now for sourcing the plates, I don't know of any good places to look besides ebay.

I was looking at these 16g 316L plates.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300333490210

As for gaskets, I'm tempted to cut my own, but I did notice these.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&_rdc=1&item=260469089956

he mentions that he could custom cut them, so the extra notch wouldn't be there.

Anyone has recommendations for any good cheap reliable sources on plates/gaskets?

I chipped my ECU last night and got datalogging working. One step further. I wanted to chip it right away so I could start putting Unleaded into the tank. Currently if I run 87 Octane, it'll start pinging under load (up hills). I have to run at least 89 to get rid of it. I'll retard the timing and give unleaded a go again.

Thanks!

Yes, the top and bottom holes like that will be fine. The lower fill holes aren't offset but, as I said, I haven't yet seen a test that shows whether that actually stops the current loss anyway. You are only talking a maximum of 0.5MMW efficiency decrease by all accounts, so I wouldn't worry too much anyway. If you get to build it I might tell you a secret way to stop current leakage which we have developed. I was going to inform the Smack about this as he's messing about with awkward solutions to this problem, as well as many other developers I know.....anyway, I digress.....
The ready made gaskets look pretty good, though I wouldn't be certain of his claims unless he gave an exact material content, but most likely they are better than the PVC ones people normally cut themselves, due to their lack of heat resistance. Not that you should run your cell at high temperatures really anyway, but it's handy to know it can handle whatever is thrown at it.

Trike

09-17-2009, 10:48 PM

Cool,

I do want to build it, I'm just trying to source out all the parts for a reasonable price. That ebay seller with the plates hasn't responded to me with shipping charges yet. I'm starting to think he's a flake. It has been 3 days so far. I wish I had a laser cutter to cut my own plates. I'd like to build a nice clean generator for around $100 or less. Might not be possible If I buy pre-cut gaskets. We'll see. I'm hoping to build the entire setup for under $500. The setup should give me enough flexibility to maximize gains on my motor.

Trike

09-20-2009, 12:34 AM

got the plates ordered. 3 power plates and 10 neutrals. going to order the gaskets next

Trike

09-21-2009, 12:29 PM

I just found a local source for 3/4" HDPE for the end plates. $14.22 for 2 7.5" x 7.5" x 3/4" sheets.

for the refill/discharge ports, is 2 3/8" nylon barbs good enough?

As for location of the ports, do I place them right over the holes in the power plate?

Progress is underway, things are being ordered. Soon enough, I'll be putting it all together. :)

biggy boy

09-21-2009, 12:56 PM

As for location of the ports, do I place them right over the holes in the power plate?

That's were I put mine, lined up with the holes in the plates.

I used 1/2 inch threaded ports in the end plates but that could be overkill.
My reasoning for the large outlet was, I believe the wider the diameter of the tub the less likely the HHO gas will be able to push fluid up the pipe and more likely for the fluid to run back down into the gen. I believe if the exit tube is real small the gas will push the generators cell fluid into the bubblers.
Column effect I think it is called.

Trike

09-21-2009, 11:32 PM

Thanks Biggy,

If there's no harm in going bigger, I'll use 1/2" fittings as well.

Trike

09-21-2009, 11:44 PM

So, I'm going to need a power supply to bench test the cell. The largest regulated power supply i have is 16 amps. Not nearly enough to do real testing.

So i'm in need for a cheap high current power supply 30-50amps.
Is it possible for me to bridge (parrallel) some lower powered ATX power supplies to get the needed power? I have a 550watt ATX psu laying around, Could I combine the 12v rails in parallel to get more current?

I also have a craftsman mig wire fed welder that looks like it uses DC. It has jumpers inside to change the polarity. I'm not sure what the output voltage is, maybe 40v? Anyway to convert it/stepdown to use as a DC power supply?

Just seeing if there's a cheap feasible DIY route.

I've ordered shane's PCB and the rest of the components from mouser to build the PWM controller as well.

Trike

09-22-2009, 12:37 PM

I just crunched some numbers based on what buster said the recommendations are.

The 6x6 plates with the gaskets takes the surface area down to 5x5

Area of 5"x5" plate = 25sq/in
Area of both notches (1"x1" notch) = 2(.50") = 1
Area of both ports (3/8") = 2(.1104) = .22078
Total area of notches and ports = 1.22078
Total production surface area = 25 - 1.22078 = 23.78in^2

Based on Busters 2-4 sq/in per amp.
I'll get between 5.945A and 11.89A per series.
Since I'll have two, that comes out to 11.89A and 23.78A

I think because of the gaskets and notches, I lose a lot of surface area. Buster mentioned his will pull 50amps. If my math is correct, 23.78A is significantly lower than Buster's 50A. My concern is not enough output, but I can start here and add more plates later.

Any thoughts, comments, suggestions on the theoretical 23.78A draw on the 13 plate cell?

Buster

09-22-2009, 01:15 PM

I have found that this size cell (ie. 2x7 series, 6"x6"plates), if uncontrolled, will go up to over 50A draw if uncontrolled. I would personally run them at no more than about 25A total.
We've found that this is as much as is necessary on a couple of litre cc engine or so, as higher amp draw seems to actually decrease MPG above around this level.

If you've got a bigger vehicle you may want to increase the number of series of plates to produce more HHO, but the same amps per series should still apply, so, with a 3x7 series control with a PWM to keep the complete cell at under around 37.5 and so on for every added series.

These are roundabout figures to give you an idea, but always test things out and see what actually suits your vehicle best.

Trike

09-28-2009, 11:24 AM

Alright, So I got the 13 plates, but the seller shipped me the wrong plates! he shipped me 10 power plates and 3 neutral plates instead of 10 neutral and 3 power.

If I arrange the plates where the three power plates are on one side. I'm not sure if I'll have enough clearance between the plates so they don't short.

I'm also not sure if there will be any current leakage with the extra tabs sticking out on the neutral plates. He apologized and said he'll ship me out the correct set, but I would have to ship him back the plates, which would be $$$.

I could cut the tabs, but the whole point of me buying the pre cut plates was to get nice clean cuts.

Any suggestions on how to make this work?

Don't even get me started on the gaskets, I ordered them last week and the seller refunded me my money without any explanations. I paid again thinking it was a fluke and it got refunded again without any explanation. heh. *sigh*

Helz_McFugly

09-28-2009, 11:34 AM

NO you wont lose any current and it wont short unless you bend something. you can just put them on backwards or upside down so the tabs are on the other side and that will make them N plates. I think its better you got it like that just incase you ever want to try a different configuration.

EDIT: as long as all the holes match up. I should have said that above.

Trike

09-28-2009, 10:00 PM

biggy boy

09-28-2009, 10:30 PM

Hrmm... maybe i'm missing something. I don't see how I can rotate the plates and still make it work. No matter which way I rotate it, I can't get the power plate by itself without another plate in the way.

I attached some pics of the plates.

You make your cable connections to the tabs with the holes in them on the right side of picture #2. the holes on the left side of that picture do not get connected to any cables( wires)

So for example connect a + cable to the top right side plate run a jumper cable long enough to reach the bottom hole and bolt it to the bottom plate, on the right side of the picture. Connect a - cable to the plate in the middle at the right side of the picture #2 that's it.

Once you get your gasket and put a gasket between each plate, the plates will be isolated from one and other.
You will need to use short bolts, so that they dont touch each other end to end.
see the attached picture of my poor drawing LOL

Glen

Trike

09-28-2009, 10:43 PM

Hi Biggy Boy,

I understand the power hookup part. I'm just concerned that the 3 tabs are too close together. Even with the gaskets installed, I'm worried they will be too close and a bump of the wire, could potentially short it out.

I would feel much more comfortable if I can flip the negative plate to the other side.

Helz_McFugly

09-28-2009, 10:46 PM

well I think he wants + on the right and - on the left. so take the other plates that have tabs and put the tabs on the bottom. (ie flip them upside down) as long as the feed holes line up. so youll have +nnnnn-nnnnn+
have you two outside plates with the + tabs on the left, put the N's and a few of the plates with tabs upside down so the tabs are on the bottom of the cell, then put the center plate with a tab in the center with the tab on the right.

flip one of the plates that has a tab upside down, where the tab is at the bottom of the cell and see if the feed holes line up. if they do> this will work.

Helz_McFugly

09-28-2009, 10:55 PM

like this is what I was thinking.
this way you have a bolt going through on the left for -
and a bolt going through on the right for +
and the other tabs are on the bottom of the cell acting as N's

does this help?
http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1356&stc=1&d=1254192918

Trike

09-28-2009, 11:01 PM

If I flip the power plates upside down to use as neutral plates, the other end (bottom) dont have notches on them and will interfere with the + plates. The holes do line up if you flip them upside down, but will still interfere with the + plates.

biggy boy

09-28-2009, 11:08 PM

Remember once you put the gaskets in between each plate you will have double the distance for bolts to clear each other compared to the distance you now have in your picture. There does not need to be much clearance, as long as the bolts don't touch each other.

My connections for my plates are all on the same side.

Helz_McFugly

09-28-2009, 11:11 PM

oh yea. because the bottoms dont have the ears cut off, duh. yea youll either have to grind tem off or use bigboys plan and wire them.

Helz_McFugly

09-28-2009, 11:14 PM

if it were me Ide hit the grinder or chop saw. its not like the grinded/cut part will be in the water. but thats jsut me

Trike

09-28-2009, 11:19 PM

Helz_McFugly,

If I did it your way, it would look like the attached pic.

Biggy Boy,
Yeah, I understand that once the gaskets are put on, there will be alot more spacing. At 1/16th each (6 plates between the - ), that will give me an extra 3/8in between the + and - plates like you said. That will give me close to 3/4 total in between each power plate compressed. I guess i'm just being paranoid. Actually measuring out 3/4" between the plates, it looks like it'll be fine. I'll have to get some neoprene and make some gaskets to see.

Trike

09-28-2009, 11:23 PM

Yeah, I was trying to avoid having to make my own cuts. Mainly for aesthetic reasons. I don't think I can make a clean cut like a laser cutter would.

With the cost of a blade for my chop saw, I could probably just a few more plates that are correct. heh. I'm just being nit picky...

Helz_McFugly

09-28-2009, 11:28 PM

yea I cought that after I had already posted what I posted. like I said. I would either send em back, which I would not be able to do because I have to have stuff NOW!! I would cut or grind off those tabs that you dont need. it wont wake any difference because the grinded/cut part wont be in the water. no bad effect at all and you wont have to send them back and wait. but if youre not comfortable doing that, and I understand, send them back. Im just a fabricating fool and wouldnt be able to wait and would start chop chop chopin as soon as I got them.

what ever you do, good luck with it.

Trike

10-06-2009, 11:17 AM

Got some more materials in. I got 3' of 1/32" and 1/16" neoprene sheets from mcmaster. I'm still undecided on which thickness to use. 1/16" appears to be more common. I'm a little iffy on using the 1/32" yet. I read on here that the electrolyte may get pumped out and not enough gets cycled back in. I think I'll try the 1/16" first, unless anybody has any comments on using the 1/32".

As for endplates, Can someone help me decide on a material? I originally priced out 7.5"x7.5"x 3/4" HDPE at ~$14.22. I'd like to have some room for temperature increase, in case something happens.

So I was looking at the possibility of using UHMW or Delrin. Delrin seems to have the best specs, but it's pricey and I may get priced out of it. But UHMW appears more affordable and can operate at 180F. I just want to make sure I have time to notice a temperature increase before stuff starts melting.

is 3/4" thick enough for a 13 plate cell? Just want to make sure it doesn't warp and cause a leak.

Thanks

Helz_McFugly

10-06-2009, 12:05 PM

3/4" UHMW will work fine, thats thick. Delrin is a little stiffer, but if youre using 3/4" UHMW it doesnt matter. 3/4 UHMW could hold a way larger e-lyzer together with no problems.

thisa is a 51 plate e-lyzer with 1/2" UHMW. it also uses 1/16" gaskets
http://www.frankscustom.com/images/hho_bi1.jpg

Trike

10-07-2009, 05:46 PM

Thanks Helz,

I gave the local plastics company a call and they don't carry 3/4" UHMW. They only carry 1/2"

I feel a little nervous about using 1/2" as I've read some have had issues flexing over a period of time.

This is prices I have found for 7.5" x 7.5" end plate material

3/4" HDPE - $14.22
1/2" UHMW - $~20
1/2" Delrin - $50
3/4" Acrylic - $44
1/2" Phenolic CE - $47.14

The 3/4" HDPE is the cheapest/thickest, but also has the lowest operating temperature before melting. I'd like to use phenolic, but it's just too pricey.

The end plates is the last thing I need before constructing the cell. I'm just having a hard time making a decision on the best price/performance end plates.

Trike

10-07-2009, 07:06 PM

Ok.. I called around some more and found some 7.5" x 7.5" x 3/4" UHMW for $35.00. That's for two plates. I'm going to pick it up tomorrow. Sweet, I just need to pick up some SS bolts and I can get started on building it.

Trike

10-14-2009, 06:32 PM

Made some progress on the cell. I got the EGT and wideband installed in the car. I'm starting to tweak the A/F and ignition timing to see what kind of gains I can get before installing the HHO.

Here are some pics. I still need to finish cutting the gaskets, and drilling the holes in the end plates.

http://turborocco.com/gallery2/d/1044-2/IMG_0960.JPG

http://turborocco.com/gallery2/d/1057-2/IMG_0955.JPG

http://turborocco.com/gallery2/d/1060-2/IMG_0954.JPG

biggy boy

10-14-2009, 09:53 PM

Trike! that looks great!!!
Nice job with the gaskets Man! That is going to be one nice looking gen when your finished.

Glen

Trike

10-15-2009, 11:17 AM

Thanks biggy boy,

I started cutting out the center sections last night. They take significantly more time to cut out. I made a template out of an extra gasket I cut out. I took the center piece I cut out and laid it on top of another gasket. I traced it, then cut it out. The part that takes a lot of time is making sure the trace was drawn accurately. I've done about 3 so far, and every one has had a slight variance. Maybe if I had a hard template, it would be easier, but I think the variance would still be there, since each gasket has its own slight variance.

I'm just trying to keep the 1/2" border as accurately as I can. It took me less time to cut the outline of 14 gaskets than to cut out the template and 3 gaskets. Maybe I'm being overly anal. :o

biggy boy

10-15-2009, 06:49 PM

They should be ok.
Mine distorted a bit after they were cut and they did not line up squarely on the plates when I stacked them. So far no leaks. It's a new Gen so time will tell.

hhonewbie

10-15-2009, 10:46 PM

Trike

10-16-2009, 12:09 PM

Nice work Trike,
What spec. gasket material are you using?

1/16" neoprene rubber 80A Duro.

I also have 1/32" 80A Duro. I'm going to start with the 1/16" first. If I decide on a pump, I'll give the 1/32" a try.

I'm hoping to finish the gaskets this weekend, I have 8 left to do. Then I'll start working on getting the endplates drilled.

Trike

10-28-2009, 04:09 PM

rcflyn

10-28-2009, 07:33 PM

I should be getting the bolts in today. I got the end plates drilled for the 1/4 holes. I still need to drill out the 1/2" holes and thread them for the in/out ports.

I still need to prep the plates. I couldn't seem to find a definitive answer if I could use a cleaner on the plates to remove finger prints and oils from manufacturing. Can I use dishwashing liquid (like dawn) to clean it without it leaving any residue or anything that will hinder production?

This is my plan for cleaning/prepping the plates.
1. Clean plates to remove oils (with what?)
2. Sand plates with 60grit.
3. Rinse out with distilled water.
4. Soak plates in KOH/distilled water for 3 days (how strong? 20%)
5. Install plates.
6. Condition them at low amps.

When soaking the plates, if I wanted to use 20% koh to water weight. Would I be using 1.66lbs of KOH to 1 gallon of water (8.35lbs)?

Thanks! almost there!

A lot of these questions I can't answer yet, as I think I'm still too new into HHO as well...
BUT, here is what I just recently discovered...
I just finished up a wet cell, and wasn't very "Cautious" about finger prints. So, to remove Finger Oils, I figured "Dawn takes Grease out of the way".
So I filled the sink with scalding hot water, put quite a bit of dawn dish soap in, soaked them till the water was cooled enough to put my hands in, and scrubbed The CRAP outta those plates. Assembled my wet cell with golves, put it into a light KOH Mixture and let er do er thing. Within an hour or so of running at around 5 amps, I THOUGHT the water started to get a blue tint to it (same color as Dawn I was using), but I thought, NNNNAAAAAA, just my imagination.. Right.... so I let er rip for a while Longer, then, noticed Foaming going on (water temp was only about 15 degrees above ambiant temp). I shut it down, and strained the water with a shop cloth into a milk jug. and sure enough, the water was BLUE.... but, I let it run for SEVERAL hours in this "Blue" water, got lots of foaming going on, then mixed up a new batch of KOH Mixture... Cells run for about 48 hours total since new mixture, and no more foaming, or blue water.
SSSSOOOOOOOOOOO...... Take that as you will, but what I'm seeing so far, dish soap will somehow effect the SS Plates when you wash them.
I'm thinking for my Dry cell I'm currently working on, I'll soak the plates in Rubbing alcohol? to get rid of the finger prints (I'm horrible at wearing gloves, you just Loose that "FEEL" while working with them on)...
Any other Ideas, or concerns from anyone else???

Helz_McFugly

10-28-2009, 08:27 PM

yea man, dont use soap. wipe them down with alcohol before and after you sand them. Ive never let my soak in anything, after i clena and sand then clean, I put it together and run it with NAOH for a few hours then drain it, flush it with distilled water. then rock & roll. Some people conditionthem in different ways but for the most parts its jsut like the way I do only a little longer. I dont have the patience to go through all that. I give it the quick cycle. And mine seem to work better then alot of the people who are conditioning them for alot longer then I am. The one Im running now is getting 6MMW and I didnt condition it at all with NAOH, I just cleaned them with alcohol, sanded, cleaned again, and then cranked it up to about half peak over night and the next day had it going full blast. still no problems out of it. by the time you get that system in tour car HHO will be obsolete :p

Trike

10-29-2009, 11:09 AM

Sounds good! I started sanding them last night, I have 4 more plates to go. But yeah, I did just that. I rubbed them down with alcohol, then sanded them. I'll rub them again with alcohol once I finish the rest of the plates. I'll do some more research and decide if I want to soak them in some KOH.

Seems like that's the general practice, but you are having great success without soaking them before running it.

I'm waiting for my 50a continuous power supply to get delivered. Once I get it, I'll start cranking it up. but I'll at least be able to run them in at around 10 amps before that.

Trike

11-02-2009, 11:26 AM

The cell is finished!

http://turborocco.com/gallery2/d/1162-2/IMG_1010.JPG

http://turborocco.com/gallery2/d/1150-2/IMG_1018.JPG

http://turborocco.com/gallery2/d/1153-2/IMG_1019.JPG

http://turborocco.com/gallery2/d/1174-2/IMG_1023.JPG

Trike

11-02-2009, 11:32 AM

I decided to skimp a little on the bolts that sandwich the endplates. I'm using armor coated bolts. All nuts and washers are stainless though. The positive electrode is using a 18-8 SS stud, washers, and nuts.

I'm going to be breaking in the cell at around 5-10amps. I know people have said to run it for a few days to flush out all the gunk. What are some safety concerns? With the fear of the little bit of HHO igniting, I wont be able to run it 24hours a day.

When people are breaking it in, do you guys just leave it running un-attended?

Helz_McFugly

11-02-2009, 11:53 AM

yip. just let it pump out into the air. no harmfull gasses there. you are going to break it in with NaOH (sodium hydroxide) right?

Trike

11-02-2009, 12:06 PM

I was going to use KOH, since I have 10lbs of it.

Helz_McFugly

11-02-2009, 05:37 PM

Ive had better luck with NaOH, then using KOH as my e-lyte. for some reason if you condition with Naoh then use KOH as your E-lyte theres less foam. dont know why but I know from expierence. I use clear end plates so I can see what going on in there and when I condition with NaOH thres way less air/foam in the cell when tis running.
I even tested this on an E-lyzer. when I built it I conditioned it with KOH and ran it with KOH at 28% and it would only fill up about 3/4, the rest was air bubbles. after i took it apart to clean it and resand I conditioned it with NaOH and then ran it with 28% KOH and it has NO air pocket at the top now and the MMW is right at 6, before it was closer to 5MMW. I dont know why it would work better but it does.

Trike

11-02-2009, 06:55 PM

I think i'll give that a try. I'll head to my ace hardware and see if if they have any drain cleaners with NAOH in it.

Thanks!

Trike

11-02-2009, 10:33 PM

so i'm getting ready to power up the cell to start the break in process.

I put an ohm meter across the electrodes and i'm getting 360ohms across it without any water through it. I wasn't expecting that. I was expecting an open loop. Are the neoprene gaskets causing it to conduct?

I plan on running rooto 100% lye through it.
http://www.mclendons.com/img/products/10/10600930.jpg

I was going to put some water into the makeshift reservoir and put in 1/2tsp until I hit 5-10amps. then just let it run

Trike

11-03-2009, 08:27 AM

So after futzing with it for 30 mins. I found out I didn't have the reservoir high enough and it was causing it not to fully cycle. I put in about 64oz of water and 1/2tsp of NAOH. It's at around 6.5amps. I'm going to bring it in to work with me to cycle it throughout the day.

I just wanted to make sure that there isn't a chance it will ignite at a low
amperage like 6.5a. can somebody reassure me about this? Last thing I want is the reservoir to explode or worse yet the cell inside my office. :)

Trike

11-03-2009, 08:54 AM

I made a makeshift bubbler and found some brass fittings and shoved some steel wool into it for a flashback arrestor. I think most people use brass wool, but steel is all I have. I'll feel much more comfortable having those with on it.

Helz_McFugly

11-03-2009, 09:44 AM

It will not ignite unless you put a flame or spark to it. but you can never be to safe. sounds like you're going to have a nice lil reactor shortly. after your done letting it run with the HaOH for about 24 hours, rinse it out a couple times with distilled water, then your ready to go.

Trike

11-03-2009, 11:16 AM

Thanks helz, I appreciate the advice you've given me. It has helped me make some decisions I was unsure of.

I have it running on my office desk right now. My bubbler isn't working. There's probably a leak in the reservoir somewhere. probably around the screw on top.

But it sure is neat to see all the bubbles come out of it. It's taking a while for the current to stabilize. It started off at around 4.3a, it has been around 40mins and it's at 6.68a and still rising.

Trike

11-03-2009, 11:54 AM

I better keep an eye on the current. since my last post, it has raised up to 7.3A. I want to make sure it doesn't run away. Plus my power supply is only good up to 14a. I'll be getting a 50A power supply this thursday, so I can really crank this baby up. I still need to finish building the PWM controller.

Trike

11-03-2009, 12:57 PM

I temped the side of the plates, and it's at 98F now. Current is currently at 8.16a and still rising. Water isn't as clear anymore, has a real slight brown tinge now.

Trike

11-03-2009, 05:12 PM

So its been running for about 6.5hrs straight, temp is at 113F, current has climbed to 10.55 Amps. It's still climbing. When I get home, I think i'm going to add some distilled water to dilute a bit. I'm just worried about my power supply dying. Since it can only handle 16amps peak.

Trike

11-04-2009, 10:31 AM

Helz_McFugly

11-04-2009, 11:30 AM

I wouldnt worry about the foam. I always got foam when I was using NaOH. people that stick with HaOH use that spa stuff. But after youre done with the NaOH and get it flushed out and get your KOH in there, you should have no foam.

Trike

11-04-2009, 11:45 AM

Alright. that sounds good. I'm still waiting for the nasty brown gunk to show up. so far the water has only gotten a slight brown tint. I know it can take couple days for it to show up, but I did clean everything with alcohol pretty good before assembling it.

Trike

11-05-2009, 04:26 PM

So i've been running it for 3 days with about 2 1 hour breaks each day (taking it home/work). The water is only slightly cloudy but no brown gunk yet.

I just got my 50a power supply and hooked it up. I noticed something a little odd. I went from a switching power supply that was drawing about 10amps to a non switching power supply, and the current draw has decreased to 7.5amps. Pretty strange.

Helz_McFugly

11-05-2009, 05:41 PM

yea, current does alot of strange things when temps change along with alot of other things. I would say your e-lyzer is done conditioning. I dont know what brown gunk youre waiting for. Alot of people use NaOH as their e-lyte and their water doesnt get brown gunk. It turns to what looks like tea after a long time. so you kinda lost me there with the brown gunk. I think 2 days of running it with NaOH is plenty. I think its safe to wash it out with distilled water and get your 28% KOH mix in there now.

OK as far as the washout, I dont normally do this but I figured Ide tell you about it because I got the 6MMW after my last conditioning and washout. and Ive never got 6MMW before at such a low temp. FYI, Im getting 1.5LPM at 12vdc/20.5amps at around 120 degrees F. at that temp, that output is great. It means there is little to no steam and little to no expanded gas due to heat. so my 1.5LPM is more then likely pure HHO.

I conditioned just like you did with NaOH, only at a higher current, Never saw any brown gunk, not even discolored water at all, but when I flushed my system with distilled water I did it 3 times, The first time I flushed it I poured about a cup of rubbing alcohol (isopropyl alcohol) in the water, same stuff you wiped the plates down with, to get any unwanted oils, or whatever, out. you dont need to do this. I dont know what it does or if it has anything to do with my 6MMW but I just wanted you to know that I did it. No one told me to do it or Ive never heard of anyone doing it. I did it just for the sake of testing and I cant tell you if it helped or not.
Good Luck.

Helz_McFugly

11-05-2009, 05:47 PM

OH yea, one more very important thing.
when desposing of your NaOH mix, be sure and pour about 1 pound of sugar in it and either let it evaporate or take it somewhere that can despose of a toxic sollution. If you dont know where one is, you can give me your zip code and Ill find the closest one to you. the sugar nuetralizes any hex chome that might be in there.
DO NOT FLUSH IT OR POUR IT ON THE GROUND OR DOWN THE DRAIN!!!

Trike

11-05-2009, 06:08 PM

ugh. I typed out a response and it got deleted. I'll try again...

Thanks for all your help Helz.

What I meant by brown gunk, I saw other people mentioning they got brown gunk during their break in process and I was expecting the same thing. But since you didn't get any, I feel better about it.

I think I'll flush it with the rubbing alcohol like you did. So far i've done practically the same prep process as you and have gotten similar results.

When you flushed it, how did you cycle all the clean water through? did you power it up? or just used gravity and fed the output into another container?

I hope to get close to 1.5lpm at 20.5 amps, I think my cell is smaller than yours too. So we'll see what happens. I need to start building the pwm controller now. Just need to slap everything into a case and make the shunt.

I still need to build a measuring device to see what my production output is like. so much to do, so little time. :o

Helz_McFugly

11-06-2009, 10:17 AM

I jsut let gravity flush mine out. I gave it a good shaking each time.

I can tell you what your volts, amps and output should be.

your plates are 6x6 and 1/2" covered by the gasket all the way around so call them 5x5. 25 sq in. and two stacks 50 sq inches. you should give it .5amps per sq in, per stack. so you should never run more then 150 watts per sq inch or your plates will start to carode. dont hold me to that 150 watts, buts its somewhere in that neighborhood. Ill have to check and get back to you with that. being that you have 6 cells per stack Ide get as close to 12vdc as you can, and with (25 sq in X 2) 50 sq in, you shouldnt get over 25 amps. 12vdc/25amps should be your max. If you run it at that you "should" get 1.7LPM but you might get more.
If you run it at 13.8vdc/20.5amps you should get about 1.4LPM.
5.71MMW is what Im basing these figures on. If you get more, that would be awesome. I get 6MMW.

Stevo

11-06-2009, 02:38 PM

After running it at home last night, I started to notice A lot of foam forming. It took the whole day of running before the foam started. What would cause the foam to form all of a sudden? is it just part of the break-in process?

How do I reduce it? I noticed some people use Spa dofoamer stuff.

Organosilicone for foaming. Found in many Spa de-foamers as the active ingredient. Works best with warm to hot water (or at least the kind I bought does).

Helz_McFugly

11-06-2009, 02:42 PM

wont need it with KOH. Trike was conditioning with NaOH and getting the foam.

Helz_McFugly

11-07-2009, 05:03 PM

Well hows it going Trike? I got a air flow gauge today Im going to hook up, its not made for HHO so it will be a litle off but it will work great for tuning the freq. so i can see the output change in real time and not have to test it every time I change something. I think they are almost a necessity when tryin to tune your system.
http://ground-breaking-tech.com/usr/Image/medical_air_flow_meter.jpg

Trike

12-01-2009, 12:39 PM

odd.. I didn't get an email notification on your reply.

I've been very busy since my last post and didn't get a chance to work on it much. But i'm getting ready to jump back into it.

I got my PWM and need to hook it up to test it. I got a coolant reservoir tank at schucks. Only thing I don't like about the tank is the flip top cap.

I started poking around the engine bay to see where I am going to fit all this stuff. It's really tight and cramped in there. Only potential spot so far is in front of the radiator behind the front bumper. Only issue with that is, I don't think I can mount the reservoir high enough. I'd like to avoid using a pump to keep it simple, but I might have to. If I mount the reservoir in front of the radiator, I wont have easy access for maintenance either. I would have to remove the bumper to get to it. So I might need to find another reservoir that's a different size.

Buefore I mount it in the car, I want to get a baseline for output. But i'm having issues finding two bottles of the right size that can slide together.

How is your air flow gauge working out for you?

I still need to build a bubbler, but I have some 2" PVC pipe that I can use for that.

I'm hoping to get it installed in the car before the end of the year, but finding and ordering the extra bits sucks up time.

Helz_McFugly

12-01-2009, 01:17 PM

its off but if helps when tuning my system. I just have to disregard the graduations on it. when Im puting out 1.5LPM it says a little less then 3lpm. good luck with your build

Trike

12-03-2009, 10:53 AM

I looked at my cell last night and noticed my endplate where I have the positive connector hooked up had melted a bit. What I think happened, The 12g wire I had hooked up couldn't handle the current and heated up. As the endplate started to soften around the connection, the wire started to loosen up causing a bad connection. The heat got hotter as the connection got worse.

The washer got pressed into the endplate from the heat. I'll post some pics tonight.

I picked up some 6g wire and some connectors. This time, instead of bolting the connector to the endplate, i'm going to bolt it to the center of the stud that's connecting the two positive plates.

Helz_McFugly

12-06-2009, 12:19 AM

I had the same thing happen to one of mine. Ill never snug my power wire against the end plate again.

lhazleton

12-06-2009, 03:01 PM

Hey Bro-in-law, same with me a few weeks back! One of my negative leads got loose & burned the tab right off the plate. Output really sucked when it was only running 3 stacks.

Trike

12-07-2009, 10:04 AM

Yeah, learned my lesson from that. I replaced all the wires with 6g wire now. Now I'm having issues with the PWM not lowering the current. I posted on the PWM forum to see if I can get some help.

The current is rising instead of lowering when I turn the limit and duty pots CW.
Once I get this fixed, I'll be able to do some output tests at different currents. It's stuck at 30amps now.

Helz_McFugly

12-07-2009, 04:26 PM

WTF? now that doesnt sound right. you should turn the adjustments on them all the way clockwise untill you feel a small click. they will never stop turning but when they are all the off or all the way on you will feel a click every rotation. after you get it all the way off, count how many turns it takes untill it clicks again and is all the way on. most are around 25 rotations. then turn them back the other way half way on/off. so if it turns 26 times from one click to the other, turn it 13 times. that will set it back to the way it was shipped to you. start from there. I wouldnt worry about the freq. leave it in the middle. there is no proof that freq affects electrolosys.
here is how I set mine.
I turn the duty allthe way up and the limit all the way down and slowly turn the limit up untill I get 1 amp above where I want it. then Ill turn the duty down untill it drops to where I want it to be.

hope this helps.
come over to www.hhounderground.com there are some electrical engineers and theres less people over thre so more people will jump to help you.

Trike

12-07-2009, 11:04 PM

Thanks! I figured it out with Shane's help. The meter was reading incorrectly. I verified it by measuring the shunt instead.

So I did some production tests and efficiency seems low. I used this link to calculate MMW. http://www.hho-generator.de/en/hho-mmw-calculator.htm

I used a 1L bottle inside of a 2L bottle. I measured 4 times per amp setting and took the average.

Voltage:13.48V

20amps, cell ~69F
55.3secs
1.08L/min
4.02MMW

25amps, cell ~71F
43.35secs
1.38L/min
4.10MMW

30amps, cell ~74F
34.6secs
1.73L/min
4.28MMW

I know a lot of variables affect the efficiency, including plate quality. But has there been a consensus on what affects efficiency the most?

Helz_McFugly

12-08-2009, 07:54 AM

I could be wrong but I would think the e-lyte flow could be youre problem. If you have pockets of gas at the top of each cell then that is surface area that is not producing. you could fix that problem a few ways such as making the e-lyte res. higher or adding a small pump. you have to have good flow. maybe an inlet on each side and an outlet on each side. I doubt current leakage is your problem. with 12vdc/20amps you should be getting close to 1.5LPM.
Do your outlet ports from the e-lyzer go into the e-lyte res. submurged? or in the top of the e-lyte res. where there is air?
Ive found that porting into the top makes for less restriction on the outlet of the gas and helps flow. Also by adding a check valve that takes say, 3 to 5 psi to open, after your e-lyte res (between your e-lyte res. and your bubbler) will give the e-lyte res. a bit of pressure in the air pocket which will help force the e-lyte back into the e-lyzer.

Trike

12-08-2009, 10:24 AM

I noticed a voltage drop at the cell vs. the power supply. I was getting 13.48v at the power supply and 12.45v at the cell. That seems like a significant drop. Have you noticed a similar voltage drop on your setup?

I'll start with the electrolyte flow. I currently have a 3/8" hose for the in/out ports. I have the reservoir about 1.5ft above the cell. The return hose from the cell is above the water line on the reservoir, so that should be ok. I can try going to a 1/2" in/out hose to see if it'll help.