Maybe it's the Steam?

[Roland Jacques]

Call me crazy but I think i am seeing a pattern from the super High gain crowds.

Of the "100% to 200 % plus gains" crowd it seems that most run Very hot electrolysers. (most of them dont even realise they are running very hot cells.) They have also claimed that closer to combustion chamber to intro there gas is better.

Could it be that the HHO is complemented by large amount of steam? Could that be a key point in kicking up the effectiveness of HHO for those sup.er gains????

Id bet some may be running 80% of their gas output is steam.

Ive wanted to test this theory now for a few month now with a small Gasoline electric generator. but i dont have access to one. Seeing One more guy with super super super claims of outrageous MPG's.

Any opinions

[richard_lyew]

Call me crazy but I think i am seeing a pattern from the super High gain crowds.

Of the "100% to 200 % plus gains" crowd it seems that most run Very hot electrolysers. (most of them dont even realise they are running very hot cells.) They have also claimed that closer to combustion chamber to intro there gas is better.

Could it be that the HHO is complemented by large amount of steam? Could that be a key point in kicking up the effectiveness of HHO for those sup.er gains????

Id bet some may be running 80% of their gas output is steam.

Ive wanted to test this theory now for a few month now with a small Gasoline electric generator. but i dont have access to one. Seeing One more guy with super super super claims of outrageous MPG's.

Any opinions

yes sir you are correct that is why i use a wet cell and cooling because no matter how cool you think your generator can run it will boil when putting out 10+LPM and no cooling. that is why in my thread i stress cooling so much.

my claims are not outragous, just wait and if you have time follow the thread.

[oicu812]

Its hard to tell with todays modern cars but I still remember my first car a 1973 oldsmobile delta 88. That boat would run like a champ in a rainstorm, you could actually feel the difference in horsepower in wet weather. I've read alot of info about water injection some say it all bogus and others say it works great, I don't know maybe its something to look into.

[Philldpapill]

I know some aviation engines inject a water mist into the combustion chambers in the engines. I believe it has something to do with the phase change of the water mist, absorbing some latent heat. When the water turns to vapor(steam), it of course expands, giving extra "oomph" to the expansion pressure of the chamber.

I'm not a ME, and my background in mechanical engines isn't that knowledgeable, but that's what I've heard/read.

[richard_lyew]

Its hard to tell with todays modern cars but I still remember my first car a 1973 oldsmobile delta 88. That boat would run like a champ in a rainstorm, you could actually feel the difference in horsepower in wet weather. I've read alot of info about water injection some say it all bogus and others say it works great, I don't know maybe its something to look into.

Here is the water plug, read up
http://www.rexresearch.com/meyerhy/2067735.htm

[Helz_McFugly]

Phill, I just added you to my yahoo messenger. Im on there all day at work

[Helz_McFugly]

I'm not a ME, and my background in mechanical engines isn't that knowledgeable, but that's what I've heard/read.


same here but I work with a M.E. and I know he use to own a rotary engine on a small aircraft so I may pick his brain a bit when i see him next. I know he worked for bell helicopter a few years back. maybe he can giveup some good info on water injection.

[richard_lyew]

I know some aviation engines inject a water mist into the combustion chambers in the engines. I believe it has something to do with the phase change of the water mist, absorbing some latent heat. When the water turns to vapor(steam), it of course expands, giving extra "oomph" to the expansion pressure of the chamber.

I'm not a ME, and my background in mechanical engines isn't that knowledgeable, but that's what I've heard/read.

thats mainly for cooling

[Buster]

An old mechanic I know says the water injection method was first used in aircraft in World War 2. It was to overcome the poor fuel quality at the time and has also been used on cars. The theory is that a mist of water is sucked into the engine via a bubbler system, and the fine water droplets flashsteam inside the engine and cause extra expansion power. This same thing occurs, supposedly, when driving in wet weather.
There is an optimal amount of water to achieve better performance/MPG of about 10-15% by certain accounts.
This could well be partially responsible for some of the MPG increases reported with HHO systems, and could possibly be utilised to increase our results.
I imagine that a fine HHO diffuser in a large bubbler could help do the trick.
Any ideas??

[redrat100]

Yes, water injection works apart from HHO. On one of my HHO cells I filtered the HHO output through a dessicant to remove all moisture before going into the intake. With that, my mileage decreased. I then built a steam only generator an installed that. My mileage increase has been a little better at 5.5% than with my low output cells.

Many experimenters in this technology claim high MMW numbers when all they are measuring is some HHO with a lot of steam. To get true HHO output you must measure the HHO dried through a condenser or dessicant.

[Buster]

We've got our cells up to about 6MMW at 25 degrees C, so no steam. I could probably get more by spending a lot of time conditioning the plates with NaOH, but I personally don't think that it really matters that much past here. There are more important considerations in getting MPG results.
I think some people think they're in the MMW olympics. Lol.

On one occasion I seemed to have had a very high (unverified 74) MPG result, and my bubbler had been empty for the journey. I have wondered whether the HHO being much hotter because it hadn't passed through the water in the bubbler, was anything to do with it.
It may be a bit riskier to run this way, but I hope to do more testing on this theory again some time, as well as trying an air intake bubbler which could act as a water injection system separate to HHO.

[Helz_McFugly]

I too at first had a cell that ran with an empty bubbler and was boiling and pumping steam into my intake, without me knowing mind you, and my MPGs doubled on that 100 mile trip. that was when I first started working with HHO and thats what got me all exicted about it. I didnt know anything about water injection at the time. I have yet to bust most then 8 MPG gains since then and Ive kept my cell and bubblers all maintained.

[Buster]

This is very interesting!
I thought the high MPG was just a fill-up inaccuracy, but now I'm starting to wonder.
I watched a youtube video of some guys who run their HHO through a high temperature vacuum to get more monatomic hydrogen, which is supposedly far more effective at increasing MPG. Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfBKlaWOAXc

I wouldn't want to try it personally, but the principle behind it could explain what we MAY be experiencing with the 'no bubbler' and hot HHO effect.

It could also go some way to explain why having the HHO intake as close to combustion point as possible could be advantageous.

[Philldpapill]

Once again, Richard, you speak from ignorance... As a couple of other guys have stated, it's NOT about cooling like you keep touting on about for everything. The point of water injection is to convert some extra waste heat, into more expansion power.

[Roland Jacques]

We've got our cells up to about 6MMW at 25 degrees C, so no steam. I could probably get more by spending a lot of time conditioning the plates with NaOH, but I personally don't think that it really matters that much past here. There are more important considerations in getting MPG results.
I think some people think they're in the MMW olympics. Lol.

On one occasion I seemed to have had a very high (unverified 74) MPG result, and my bubbler had been empty for the journey. I have wondered whether the HHO being much hotter because it hadn't passed through the water in the bubbler, was anything to do with it.
It may be a bit riskier to run this way, but I hope to do more testing on this theory again some time, as well as trying an air intake bubbler which could act as a water injection system separate to HHO.


I too at first had a cell that ran with an empty bubbler and was boiling and pumping steam into my intake, without me knowing mind you, and my MPGs doubled on that 100 mile trip. that was when I first started working with HHO and thats what got me all exicted about it. I didnt know anything about water injection at the time. I have yet to bust most then 8 MPG gains since then and Ive kept my cell and bubblers all maintained.


More evidence of that common thread? personally i think their is a pattern. Like i said in the first post, i have seen many claims of 100%-200% gains and they all seem to have the heat / steam and proximity in common.

Heat or Steam or_______? not sure. Whatever the reason i suggest we all do more testing in this area. Ill let the smarter guys figure out the whys. I do know intake temp sensor could account for some leaning but...

(i wish i had that generator to test with there so much less subjective than a car)

[Helz_McFugly]

Ill be pumping some steam from a some sort humidifier/steam gen into the generator, Ill film it all and document my findings. Im setting up a nice fuel messurement system right now. I wasnt in love with smacks kitchen messuring cup. Ill have a 1/4 gal cylinder with a clear gas line with messurments all the way to the carb and figure out what the bowl holds to calc that in as well.

[redrat100]

Once again, Richard, you speak from ignorance... As a couple of other guys have stated, it's NOT about cooling like you keep touting on about for everything. The point of water injection is to convert some extra waste heat, into more expansion power.

I agree with you about cooling within the context of what Richard is saying. But- cooling the HHO leaving the cell does matter, but not like he thinks. Consider that the steam does carry electrolyte in suspension along with it into the intake. Both NaOh and KOh will attack the aluminum parts in the engine. Routing the HHO through a bubbler will remove some. Routing the HHO through a condenser will greatly reduce the electrolyte bearing steam. Routing it through a desiccant filter will reduce it even further. This is easy to verify by dipping litmus paper into the steam. Anything higher than 7 is a basic solution indicating trace electrolyte. The goal is to cool and filter the steam out of the HHO until it has a neutral ph of 7. Also, if at some point you pull out your aluminum intake manifold and see a whitish haze inside, your HHO system is corroding your engine parts.

[Roland Jacques]

Yep yep,

My thoughts were to build a seperate steam generator. It would take block water/coolant and run though a type of enclosed heat exchanger that could evaporate about 500CCs an hour. Thats should be 800 LPH or 12 LPM of steam.

Regulating the steam is the trick i have not figured out yet.

[Roland Jacques]

WHAT IF????

Could Gasoline and HHO in the firing in the combustion chamber, have the right conditions to cause Steam to convert to HHO and ...?

OR

Could Gasoline and HHO in the combustion chamber have the right conditions to cause Steam (with electrolyte in it) to convert to HHO?

[redrat100]

WHAT IF????
Could Gasoline and HHO in the firing in the combustion chamber, have the right conditions to cause Steam to convert to HHO and ...?
OR
Could Gasoline and HHO in the combustion chamber have the right conditions to cause Steam (with electrolyte in it) to convert to HHO?

One of the by products of gasoline combustion already is water. Not sure what percentage per gallon. But it certainly contributes during combustion. Did you ever notice all of the steam coming out of your exhaust pipe on a cold morning? If it is not a blown head gasket or cracked head, it is a result of gasoline combustion.

[johnyb]

Roland, i think the following might interest you;

There use to be a video on YouTube. It showed a Japanese company testing a van with a new concept of hydrogen and water to steam. They called it HAW (Hydrogen And Water, i think). They showed legal documentation from the road authority or whatever exactly it was, which was part of putting it on the road for a period of testing.

The following is the sequence of how it works;
1. Hydrogen injected into the engine
2. hydrogen is ignited
3. Water is injected after the hydrogen combustion, which then turns to steam. The car is driven by the created steam...
in that case, the car stores the Hydrogen in a tank. From memory, it looked kind of small compared to some other videos i have seen of hydrogen storage tanks.

So i know that steam could very well have merit.



Then there is someone who came out with a patent who claimed to have run a car with a small amount of HHO if mixed with Dry Steam. That is without petrol/ gasoline. I am not an Engineer, but my understanding of it is that Dry Steam is pure steam. Wet steam is a mixture of steam and some water particles/ droplets, or whatever the exact terminology for it is. His name is Aguero, Juan Carlos. He claims a 1400cc engine only needs 10cc of hydrogen per second when combined with dry steam. It equals 0.6 liters per minute for such an engine. For the benefit of people in the US, a 1.4Liter engine is about 85 cubic inches.

If anyone tries out Aguero Juan Carlos's patent idea, please start a new thread and share it.

[Roland Jacques]

Roland, i think the following might interest you;

There use to be a video on YouTube. It showed a Japanese company testing a van with a new concept of hydrogen and water to steam. They called it HAW (Hydrogen And Water, i think). They showed legal documentation from the road authority or whatever exactly it was, which was part of putting it on the road for a period of testing.

The following is the sequence of how it works;
1. Hydrogen injected into the engine
2. hydrogen is ignited
3. Water is injected after the hydrogen combustion, which then turns to steam. The car is driven by the created steam...
in that case, the car stores the Hydrogen in a tank. From memory, it looked kind of small compared to some other videos i have seen of hydrogen storage tanks.

So i know that steam could very well have merit.



Then there is someone who came out with a patent who claimed to have run a car with a small amount of HHO if mixed with Dry Steam. That is without petrol/ gasoline. I am not an Engineer, but my understanding of it is that Dry Steam is pure steam. Wet steam is a mixture of steam and some water particles/ droplets, or whatever the exact terminology for it is. His name is Aguero, Juan Carlos. He claims a 1400cc engine only needs 10cc of hydrogen per second when combined with dry steam. It equals 0.6 liters per minute for such an engine. For the benefit of people in the US, a 1.4Liter engine is about 85 cubic inches.

If anyone tries out Aguero Juan Carlos's patent idea, please start a new thread and share it.

Johny B

Awesome post Thanks!!!!!!

HAW make perfect since to me H2 by itself provides very little power the addition of misting or (wet steam) turning into steam would provide the power to the heat.

The dry steam addition is the one I'm interested in

This would explain many super high gain MPG's reports and some other things I've seen and heard of. (Richard's Subaru comes to mind)

Yes anyone with more info on Aguero Juan Carlos's patent or test results please provide a link or...

Here's a link on one thing http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0405919.html
Interesting that he uses the word "probably" in this explanation, as to what is happening from the dry steam in the combustion chamber. Which to me, means he is not sure why he sees benefits of the dry steam addition.


How some define "dry steam"

Yes, you can have "dry" steam. A measure of the "wetness" of steam is
>called quality. Quality varies from 0 to 1, with a quality of 0 being a
>saturated liquid and 1 being a saturated vapor. When steam has a quality of
>1, it is considered "dry" steam. If the quality falls between 0 and 1, it
>is considered "wet" steam. You can have a can of steam because of the ideal
>gas law, PV=nRT. At a given pressure (P), volume (V), and temperature (T),
>a certain mass (n is the number of moles of a substance) can be in just
>about any state. Tip the pressure one way, and the state changes. Same
>goes for volume and temperature. The trick to get a dry can of steam is to
>know the volume of your can and the amount of H20 in the can. Assuming the
>can to be a constant volume and that the H2O cannot escape, you pick the
>temperature and pressure needed to get "dry" steam. There is a chart of
>steam tables in just any thermodynamics book that can tell you this
>information on what to choose. Change anyone of the variables slightly
>thought, you'll loose your can of "dry" steam.

[Buster]

That's great!!

Kind of sounds a lot like the idea we're talking about, with hot dry HHO and a separate water injection. I'm quite close to doing this already, just need to work out a good steam production system.

Any ideas?

[Helz_McFugly]

rig some type of small pressure coker on the exhuast manifold somehow?

[richard_lyew]

wow i must add, maybe the steam play a big part in my gains. the HHO output line coming from my final bubbler is blowing some steam, i just check this and went back and check some videos.

look at the end of this video when i take the HHO line out of the water, you can see steam blowing out :rolleyes:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cujp4-KXtkM&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cujp4-KXtkM&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[richard_lyew]

That's great!!

Kind of sounds a lot like the idea we're talking about, with hot dry HHO and a separate water injection. I'm quite close to doing this already, just need to work out a good steam production system.

Any ideas?

i can tell you how to make a good HHO and steam gen in one LOL :D

[richard_lyew]

Johny B

Awesome post Thanks!!!!!!

HAW make perfect since to me H2 by itself provides very little power the addition of misting or (wet steam) turning into steam would provide the power to the heat.

The dry steam addition is the one I'm interested in

This would explain many super high gain MPG's reports and some other things I've seen and heard of. (Richard's Subaru comes to mind)

Yes anyone with more info on Aguero Juan Carlos's patent or test results please provide a link or...

Here's a link on one thing http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0405919.html
Interesting that he uses the word "probably" in this explanation, as to what is happening from the dry steam in the combustion chamber. Which to me, means he is not sure why he sees benefits of the dry steam addition.


How some define "dry steam"

Yes, you can have "dry" steam. A measure of the "wetness" of steam is
>called quality. Quality varies from 0 to 1, with a quality of 0 being a
>saturated liquid and 1 being a saturated vapor. When steam has a quality of
>1, it is considered "dry" steam. If the quality falls between 0 and 1, it
>is considered "wet" steam. You can have a can of steam because of the ideal
>gas law, PV=nRT. At a given pressure (P), volume (V), and temperature (T),
>a certain mass (n is the number of moles of a substance) can be in just
>about any state. Tip the pressure one way, and the state changes. Same
>goes for volume and temperature. The trick to get a dry can of steam is to
>know the volume of your can and the amount of H20 in the can. Assuming the
>can to be a constant volume and that the H2O cannot escape, you pick the
>temperature and pressure needed to get "dry" steam. There is a chart of
>steam tables in just any thermodynamics book that can tell you this
>information on what to choose. Change anyone of the variables slightly
>thought, you'll loose your can of "dry" steam.

my output line always looked try(no vapor built up) so i never taught i was porting steam too, its only when i hold the hose out and took a good look at the output that i realized. other than that i cant see it.

[Buster]

I suppose the problem with getting the HHO generator to the temperatures to produce more steam is that the cell would need to be capable of handling that sort of heat, maybe all stainless steel.
We've all done this process to varying 'degrees' :D but to get this to really work efficiently we probably need to have the a separate steam generator.
I like the idea of using the exhaust manifold heat, and am thinking of using copper 'microbore' tube and coiling it round it. We could just use a bubbler action to pick up some water droplets but maybe it needs more water than this is likely to inject.

mmmmm??

[biggy boy]

wow i must add, maybe the steam play a big part in my gains. the HHO output line coming from my final bubbler is blowing some steam, i just check this and went back and check some videos.

look at the end of this video when i take the HHO line out of the water, you can see steam blowing out :rolleyes:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cujp4-KXtkM&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cujp4-KXtkM&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

sh#t ya I see it

[Philldpapill]

Just for the record, "Dry" steam, is a term used to describe the "quality". Quality of steam is basically the percentage of water in a given volume that is steam. Sounds simple enough, but not really... It has to do with temperature and pressure.

If you have a 1 cubic meter box(volume), and you have 100grams of steam in the top, and 100grams in the bottm as just water, then the quality would be 0.5. If you turn up the heat, more of the water will turn to steam until ALL the liquid water has turned into vapor. At that point, you would have 1.0 quality(100% steam). The temperature at 100% steam is a function of the pressure in the box, so as more liquid turns into vapor, the pressure goes up, so the boiling point of the water goes up, so less liquid turns to steam until an equilibrium is reached.

There are tables called "steam tables"(clever title, huh?). These tables are a compilation of empirical data that show what the pressure will be at X temperature(1.0 quality), and what the temperature will be at a specific pressure... Basic thermodynamic stuff.

ANYWAY, back to the topic now...

[Helz_McFugly]

so a good steam generator would have a coil around the exhaust manifold that heats water in a pressure cook type container with 2 release valves, 1 that releases the steam into the intake for combustion when it reaches the right pressure (what ever that might be, have to see that steam table) for the right "quality". and the second to release the over pressure to maintain the correct "quality"? sound right? simple enough if so. This is one of the tests Im wanting to try on my small power generator.

[Roland Jacques]

I think dry steam can be best visualized. I cant find it right now but wikipedia said steam is clear, you cant see it. You can only see steam as it starts to become "wetter" as it cools down. so i assume dry steam just simple cant be seen "Pure vapor"
Like the pressure cooker you cant see steam in the first 2-3" coming out the pressure relief hole. then as it cools visible droplets form.

This could also explain the idea "closer the better " proximity of injection of HHO to the combustion chamber.

I know this idea is a bit reaching and we could be getting way ahead of ourselves, but i really think this steam thing is a key point. I think this reaction, "Dry steam and high heat / pressure" could also explain the burning thermite & Ice exploding (Myth Buster's video). Anyway its a theory worth testing

[richard_lyew]

I suppose the problem with getting the HHO generator to the temperatures to produce more steam is that the cell would need to be capable of handling that sort of heat, maybe all stainless steel.
We've all done this process to varying 'degrees' :D but to get this to really work efficiently we probably need to have the a separate steam generator.
I like the idea of using the exhaust manifold heat, and am thinking of using copper 'microbore' tube and coiling it round it. We could just use a bubbler action to pick up some water droplets but maybe it needs more water than this is likely to inject.

mmmmm??

i can show you how to build one. my gen can run for a full day at full blast and never burn, its all stainless steel. it get pass 150 degrees, if i slow the circulation of the mixture it can put out alot of steam, it was getting super hot thats why i added the pump to help circulation.

im currently thinking about drilling my intake manifold to place 4 ports(1 port each) at the intake valves. i want to inject the HHO and steam (before i change over to dry cells) directly into the combustion chamber

[Roland Jacques]

so a good steam generator would have a coil around the exhaust manifold that heats water in a pressure cook type container with 2 release valves, 1 that releases the steam into the intake for combustion when it reaches the right pressure (what ever that might be, have to see that steam table) for the right "quality". and the second to release the over pressure to maintain the correct "quality"? sound right? simple enough if so. This is one of the tests Im wanting to try on my small power generator.

I believe you can't go too hot, super-heated steam is our goal. I think you should start by making a deliver system that can produce 3 LPM for every liter of Engine displacement. Then you can reduce the flow if desired.
To regulate the amount in a very hot steam maker could be done partially by regulating a feed-water source.

Water to steam is about 1:1600, 20 drops =1 ml.
So if i did this right, 12 drops of water should be close to 1 liter of steam.
A small pump with a needle valve should get us started. Feed that into your exhaust heat exchanger and that should work.

I think you could also use water jacket heat to make steam. It's not as hot, but you can make steam at lower temps than 212. There was a guy who had a hot electrolyzer that ran at 170 F and it put out a ton of steam he also claimed 120% MPG gains. Also if you put it in a vacuum (Which is what we are suggesting) you can even boil water at lower temps.

[Helz_McFugly]

Im guessing you can check for dry steam with a mirror or something chrome. take your HHO hose off where you have it going into the intake and put it up to a cool mirror or something you can fog up with your breath. see if it foggs up at all.

could you not test to see if there are electrolytes coming out of your HHO output hose by letting it run while laying on a mirror, that has a sliver of ice underneath to keep the mirrow cool, for a while and then letting the mirror dry? wouldnt it leave a little white residue on the mirror? not sure if KOH would leave residue even if it were in the steam. I guess I can pump up my cell to over heat and test that tomorrow. if it did Ill try it how its setup now. also if it works then this would be a standard test to check to see if electrolytes are getting into your intake.

[Helz_McFugly]

Im gunna test my cold mirror theory tonight to see if the steam leaves any electrolyte on the mirror after it dries. Im going to double my electrolytes and hook my system up to my power supply that i can control the amps on and get that sucker HOT then, using only the refill tank bubbler, let the steam blow over a small, cool mirrow for about 5 or 10 minutes then let it dry and see if I can see any white residu on the mirror. if i do, its a valid test so then im going to put it back the way I normally run it, which seems as if it has no steam and it runs about 120 F, to do the same test. only ill have to let it run for about 20 to 30 minutes then check for any white on the mirror. maybe this could be a standard test to check for electrolytes in your output. simple enough.

gunna make a new thread if i get good results.

[biggy boy]

then let it dry and see if I can see any white residu on the mirror.


Hey Helz! before you start that mirror test, make sure you get that other white residu off of it :p

[Helz_McFugly]

Hey Helz! before you start that mirror test, make sure you get that other white residu off of it :p

thankfully, those days have passes
http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0022.gif

[Helz_McFugly]

OK I did the electrolyte in steam test. I doubled the KOH in my system and got it nice at hot so it was pumping out enough HHO along with steam. I put a ziplock bag of ice and water under a small mirrow and let the steam hit the glass for about 10 minutes, it got nice and fogged up then wet. I let it dry and it did have white residu left behind after it dried. I then mixed my solution back the way I run it normally and let it set on the mirrow for about 30 minutes. it didnt fog up but it did leave a little moisture behind, very little, and dried up with no white residu at all.

I dont think this would be a good test to see if you have steam but it seems to me it would be a conclusive test to see if you have electrolytes coming out of the end of your HHO's output hose.

[biggy boy]

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0022.gif

Man I'm so naive.
I saw that in another of your posts and thought it was a dude cutting steel with laser eyes, but it just didn't look right, the laser part that is. :p

[Roland Jacques]

Man I'm so naive.
I saw that in another of your posts and thought it was a dude cutting steel with laser eyes, but it just didn't look right, the laser part that is. :p

That's funny, I thought the same thing. I was like that's a cool little laser eye guy, whats he trying to cut. LOL

That stuff belongs in the past. Good job

[richard_lyew]

dam right it all have something to do with the STEAM!!!!!!!!!!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CBLLOuyOXnw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CBLLOuyOXnw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Roland Jacques]

dam right it all have something to do with the STEAM!!!!!!!!!!

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CBLLOuyOXnw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CBLLOuyOXnw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
Richard, I think ive been nudge enough

I start testing this "Steam Factor" this week

[Helz_McFugly]

coooollll. I cant wait for the results. this power generator I have might be to damn big to do any testing on. I might go pick a cheap one up from pepboys. this giant I have is a monster. 24 HP, and it welds. HA

[richard_lyew]

wow i didnt realized that water vapor/steam had so much to do with my system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9VQxsd77To&feature=related

[redrat100]

so a good steam generator would have a coil around the exhaust manifold that heats water in a pressure cook type container with 2 release valves, 1 that releases the steam into the intake for combustion when it reaches the right pressure (what ever that might be, have to see that steam table) for the right "quality". and the second to release the over pressure to maintain the correct "quality"? sound right? simple enough if so. This is one of the tests Im wanting to try on my small power generator.

I like this idea Helz- Any device that can use some of the waste exhaust heat to increase mileage is a good one. This increases the thermal efficiency of the engine by recycling waste heat and increase mileage. Sounds like a lot of work though...

This is how I got a 5.5% mpg increase (2.0 VW Jetta). I took a fogger like these http://www.mainlandmart.com/foggers.html. It makes "cold" steam with ultrasonics and about 1.5 amp current draw. I built a tank using 2 inch plastic piping. It does require 24 vac. A cigarete lighter inverter for a laptop is adequate to power it. The fog is ducted to a fitting just before the throttle body, same place I had my HHO going. No efie, map tweeker or any other ecu mods. No c.e.l. lights either. Also, I added an air scoop in front of the radiator to pressurize the tank. This also behaved like a speed regulator. Idling at a stop light only engine vacuum was drawing in the fog. But in traffic airflow through the tank increased with speed.

I also had a patent search done. They discovered that this fogger water vapor injection was patented in 1997, number 5671701. It describes exactly what some of us have been doing. US patents are good for 20 years. So, it won't be public domain intil 2017.

I am thinking of combining my Ti cell with this fog injector...

[Helz_McFugly]

OMG. Smack says its better to inject into the air box so all chambers get the same amount of HHOat about 6:15 minutes into the video. the first 6 minutes are about flow, over and over and over. so it must be true "because he says so fool"

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/SSWSczT4MpE&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/SSWSczT4MpE&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

umm ok? umm ok? , ok, um ok?

[Philldpapill]

Holy $hit. Smack actually said something with valid reasoning to back it up. Maybe 2012 really is the end of the world. Someone hold me. I'm scared.

[H-JEEP-OH]

Hello All; been following your work with great interest. I'm having some problems, I've got a 4.2L engine, making about 1lpm HHO, on approx 25 - 30 amps. I'm not seeing much of an improvement to mileage, and wondering if maybe it's due to steam..?

[Buster]

Hello All; been following your work with great interest. I'm having some problems, I've got a 4.2L engine, making about 1lpm HHO, on approx 25 - 30 amps. I'm not seeing much of an improvement to mileage, and wondering if maybe it's due to steam..?

You should be producing more output than this at 25-30A, but apart from that, steam actually helps increase MPG, so I don't think you should be worried about that unless the steam is condensing and not reaching the combustion chamber, in which case the spent energy in producing it will have been for nothing.
It could also very possibly be the dreaded ECU compensating for the better combustion by injecting more fuel to cool the engine back down to its normal inefficient combustion temperature.
I've just had a 2litre older Mercedes which I installed a 25A cell on and it's increased MPG by 70% above stock, so that is what is possible without the damn electronics interfering at least.
I'd either try electronics to control the ECU or water injection to totally beat it.

[richard_lyew]

Hello All; been following your work with great interest. I'm having some problems, I've got a 4.2L engine, making about 1lpm HHO, on approx 25 - 30 amps. I'm not seeing much of an improvement to mileage, and wondering if maybe it's due to steam..?

hello H-Jeep, how are you porting your HHO? in the air box or to the vacuum? and i bet you are using a wet cell :D

[H-JEEP-OH]

Thanks for the response! I'm ported to the vacuum intake on my carb. Maybe I simply need to put more cells in, according to one of the threads I've read here, to see results one needs about 1lpm per litre of engine displacement...

[Helz_McFugly]

1LPM is good for getting a good gain but it depends on the engine. I hear of higher gains coming with a higher cylinder compression raying. My engine is 3.5 liters and I had a cell making 1LPM and I was getting a gain of 33%. But I just put a 1.5LPM system on it and it looks like I may be getting closer to 40%. Not sure yet because it hasn't been in there long. I'll know by the end of the week. I drive 60 a day.

[richard_lyew]

Thanks for the response! I'm ported to the vacuum intake on my carb. Maybe I simply need to put more cells in, according to one of the threads I've read here, to see results one needs about 1lpm per litre of engine displacement...

vacuum on the carb? what year is your car? do you have a pic of the carb and where ur porting it? maybe you should try the vacuum line leading from the break pump

[350matt]

I don't know if you guys have seen this but it adds fuel toe the fire about steam injection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd4ekSUoFXQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmagirus-deutz.blogspot.com%2F&feature=player_embedded

[350matt]

I don't know if you guys have seen this but it adds fuel to the fire about steam injection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd4ekSUoFXQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmagirus-deutz.blogspot.com%2F&feature=player_embedded

[Roland Jacques]

I don't know if you guys have seen this but it adds fuel to the fire about steam injection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd4ekSUoFXQ&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fmagirus-deutz.blogspot.com%2F&feature=player_embedded


Wow, that's Awesome!
Maybe it's the Steam?
I'm convinced it's safe to say
It is the steam !!!

1.7 LPH to .3 LPH is 84% decrease in fuel consumption which is = to a 500% increase in effiency on that small generator. A big diesel with a reported 75% decrease in Fuel Consumption. Incredible!!!

That guy seems to have It down! Check out his other videos on his site.
He is not to clear on the roll (if any) of the inner rod. North south pole thing and i cant find what that rod actualy is.
http://hydronica.blogspot.com/

[richard_lyew]

Wow, that's Awesome!
Maybe it's the Steam?
I'm convinced it's safe to say
It is the steam !!!

1.7 LPH to .3 LPH is 84% decrease in fuel consumption which is = to a 500% increase in effiency on that small generator. A big diesel with a reported 75% decrease in Fuel Consumption. Incredible!!!

That guy seems to have It down! Check out his other videos on his site.
He is not to clear on the roll (if any) of the inner rod. North south pole thing and i cant find what that rod actualy is.
http://hydronica.blogspot.com/

wow i never tayght i would see this day so quick, maybe now some of these people will get off my back and leave me with my steam monster. funny thing is that about half my 20LPM is HHO LOL :D

Thanks for making this thread :D

[Helz_McFugly]

yes it is the steam, well the water, be it steam or water vapor. I would NEVER want the steam of my HHO system to be pumped into my engine though. even running it through the dry filter scrubber that we have all talked about in the past dont get it all out. they do work great if you run your e-lyzer at a low temp that doesnt create much steam but not so well with the steam generators (e-lyzer that runs at high temps) that alot of companies are selling and people are making, and saying they are getting high LPM outputs when its more then half steam and expanded gas. the source of your steam/watorvapor should be from a different source. E-lytes in your engine will corrode any metal it touches in your engine leading to engine failure. I would think your exhaust would rust pretty fast as well.

I have been testing water vapor and getting great results.

[Helz_McFugly]

wow i never tayght i would see this day so quick, maybe now some of these people will get off my back and leave me with my steam monster. funny thing is that about half my 20LPM is HHO LOL :D

Thanks for making this thread :D

The way you stress cooling so much and talking about how extremely hot your system gets I would guess that you are making about 5 or 6 LPM of HHO. the rest is steam filled with e-lytes and your destroying your engine.

[richard_lyew]

The way you stress cooling so much and talking about how extremely hot your system gets I would guess that you are making about 5 or 6 LPM of HHO. the rest is steam filled with e-lytes and your destroying your engine.

na Helz, i have master how to clean my HHO with my final bubbler and i have test my steam to see how much KOH is in it and its so little that it wont be able to damage my engine. look on my old video and you will see the line going to my bubbler is orange with KOH but the line coming from it is clear like new, i even collect some of the steam put it under a microscope to compare it to the mixture itself and its very very clean.

it was so funny when i just started on this forum and you guys laughed at my steam machine LOL and look now, thanks Roland :D hey Roland i just remember to ask you to touch back on timing please, because i would like to make it clean about engines with VVT and timing, when i just started everybody was asking me what i do about the timing problem but i didnt have to do anything because of VVT :D

[Helz_McFugly]

it was so funny when i just started on this forum and you guys laughed at my steam machine LOL and look now
i still laugh at it, well not it, you, because there is not it, and how you go to every thread and act as if its credited to you. and how you go off topic in every thread, here you are in the thread about steam asking someone to talk about timing, which im sure youll also try to take credit for. And have you have still not come up with one single photo.

[Roland Jacques]

heres a 150 watt heating element exposed to ducted steam.
interesting effect http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfbByGdUiEo

[Helz_McFugly]

thats pretty cool Roland. what is that, that hes using for a heating element and why the hell is it purple? if you notice over in his videos description he talks about these ultrasonic cold water mist foggers that Im soooooo wanting to try.

[biggy boy]

Is he passing water through the tube and the heating element is heating the water to make steam? Or is the heating element doing something else??


Glen

[richard_lyew]

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/dAkRLjx8FeU&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/dAkRLjx8FeU&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Helz_McFugly]

cool water vapor works a 135 times better then steam. steam is already expanded. cool water vapor is not. Water expands by volume by a factor of 135. Ill post a vid of my water vapor system when i get a chance. its not like the one i had before that works only at negitive pressure. its always injecting cool water vapor. :D

[Roland Jacques]

I look forward to the video.

Here's a thought on steam.

Even at the rate of 100 liters per minute (Gas state) it will meet 1500 LPM of cool intake air before it hits the combustion chamber. ( for my 5.7 Engine) I think that would make it cooler water vapor. Probably more atomized & a higher rate of water vapor content ?

So if I do this right ?
100 LPM @300F, dilutes with 1500 LPM @100F, that = average temp of 107F

According to what i gather if you can see steam it is below 212F and i think that means it will expand at the same 1600 : 1 rate as any other form of water.

My thoughts are kind all over the place with this, But I'm starting to think it probably not even possible to get true steam to the combustion chamber...

[Helz_McFugly]

yea that sounds logical. I guess its about how to get the most (or enough/correct ammount) water vapor to the combustion chamber with the least amount of current used or draw off the engine, and that would be via steam from waisted heat from the engine. my water vapor induction only uses about 27 watts. not much at all and its giving a good amount. close to as much as that steam machine in that video Ide bet. Ill make the vid as soon as the temp outside is above death. Im a Texan and if its below 60 I cant move. :p and its frikkin 38f

[redrat100]

...if you notice over in his videos description he talks about these ultrasonic cold water mist foggers that Im soooooo wanting to try.

The ultrasonic cold foggers do work. I just ran a single unit on my 2.0 engine. I wanted to try a gang of three or four to bump up the volume of fog produced and post the results. But I said before, they don't last long at all. My third one crapped out after only 25 hours or so. At $25 a pop, I have not even come close to breaking even in mileage savings. If these things were more reliable it would be worth it. I am going to yank it out and try a pump/spray nozzle approach. I have most of the parts, just need some time. Maybe over the Christmas break.

[Helz_McFugly]

im usin one of those cold mist vaporizers, the kind with the thing that spins inside and flings the water out very vast to vaporize it. Ive got my intake air running through the inside of that water vaporizor where theres ALOT of water vapor. it works great. and its dinamic. the more air sucked in the more water sucked in.

[Roland Jacques]

im usin one of those cold mist vaporizers, the kind with the thing that spins inside and flings the water out very vast to vaporize it. Ive got my intake air running through the inside of that water vaporizor where theres ALOT of water vapor. it works great. and its dinamic. the more air sucked in the more water sucked in.

Where did you get it?

[Helz_McFugly]

my wife bought it at the mall, maybe sharper image, a few years ago. its not one of the large ones although they would work all the same. its kinda like thos but only about 6 inches tall and 10 inched in diameter. and mines clear so you can see what going on inside. Ill post a vid soon.
http://www.allergybegone.com/vicks-v420-humidifier.html?gcid=C11639x008

OK so while i was trying to find mine on goole I saw these ultrasonic humidifiers. AWESOME. google ultrasonic humidifier, those would work great.

[redrat100]

Most of those have a similar transducer than the ones that gave me grief. Try googling ultrasonic fogger.

[ralphscrafts]

Call me crazy but I think i am seeing a pattern from the super High gain crowds.

Of the "100% to 200 % plus gains" crowd it seems that most run Very hot electrolysers. (most of them dont even realise they are running very hot cells.) They have also claimed that closer to combustion chamber to intro there gas is better.

Could it be that the HHO is complemented by large amount of steam? Could that be a key point in kicking up the effectiveness of HHO for those sup.er gains????

Id bet some may be running 80% of their gas output is steam.

Ive wanted to test this theory now for a few month now with a small Gasoline electric generator. but i dont have access to one. Seeing One more guy with super super super claims of outrageous MPG's.

Any opinions
you've heard of shaving the heads will increase power. Thats because it shrinks the compustion area and gives you a larger bang. If you induce steam into the engine, steam being a non-combustable, therefore taking up space and reducing the combustion area, giving you more compression and a biger bang.

[Roland Jacques]

you've heard of shaving the heads will increase power. Thats because it shrinks the compustion area and gives you a larger bang. If you induce steam into the engine, steam being a non-combustable, therefore taking up space and reducing the combustion area, giving you more compression and a biger bang.

As mention before, (Maybe in a different thread) the extremely small amount of water (non compressible) would have the very smallest amount of change on the compression ratio.
It would be like shaving .00000001" off the heads (guesstimating) I've crunched the numbers before and it was minuscule practically non detectable.




1 liter an hour of water (That's allot by some standards) in a 3 liter engine

800RPMs divided by 2 (half are compression stokes) = 400 Rpms
400 RPMs x 60 minutes =24,000
24,000 x 3 liters = 72,000 liters

72,000 divided by 1 liter or 1/72,000= 0.00000138 Or 0.000138 of 1%
Not much effect on compression, wouldn't you agree?

[rboos]

Well, for the 'sound crazy' thread, here are some more theories..

About electrolysing water vapor, steam, there is some logic to it:

since we split the H2 and the O from the water, the higher temperature the water is, bigger the distance from its molecules, so it should be easier to electrolyse;

haven't you thought about Paul Pantone's engine, since the water vapour passes thru a thin space, with a wobbling steel rod in high frequency vibration, could be electrolysing the water by pressure and HF vibration? He also recirculates gases from the exhaust to heat and push vapours.

some companies produce on-demand hho but first they recirculate the HHO into the water reservoir, so the water being electrolysed is saturated with free H2 already?

Se if we use electricity to separate the H2 and O, it wouldn't harm if we steam the water first, and even recirculated some H2 before entering the dry cell..

I also compare that water injection in high rpm/high performance cars; at 7000 rpm, injecting a steam of nebulized water thru a nozzle into the admission or combustion chamber is - in fact - cooling the combustion chamber a little, but also gives some extra-HPs: some say it is because of the cool down, but I believe it is also using H2 and O separated inside the chamber. We did that on turbo mitsubishis (eclipses, 3000gts, eagle talons and plymouth lasers)...

Well just my 2c for the crazy ideas, take care! :eek:

[Roland Jacques]

Well, for the 'sound crazy' thread, here are some more theories..

About electrolysing water vapor, steam, there is some logic to it:


haven't you thought about Paul Pantone's engine, since the water vapour passes thru a thin space, with a wobbling steel rod in high frequency vibration, could be electrolysing the water by pressure and HF vibration? He also recirculates gases from the exhaust to heat and push vapours.

Well just my 2c for the crazy ideas, take care! :eek:

I believe Paul's system worked the same with or with out his "magnetic rod"

Is HHO being produced at the high temps with pressure...? maybe but I dont think so. I think it simple highly atomized water vapor's effect on the combustion chamber

Feel free to stop by the Crazy thread any time;)

[randycat99]

Good evening, fellow molecules! I've been lurking for a week or so out of interest in the forum subject matter. This particular one about steam is one I have pondered over for some time.

My theory is that the steam is helpful, but not from any exotic HHO separation effects or even as a marginal anti-knock agent. I think it is a crucial key to addressing engine pumping losses at idle and low throttle loads (pretty much the zone we operate the engine most of the time, unless you are racing somebody). The issue is that we operate the engine at a partial vacuum most of the time, and it is fundamentally inefficient to expect the small air/fuel charge to expand under combustion to essentially fill the vacuum and then reach some marginal pressure to gently push the piston down in the powerstroke. It would be ideal to introduce the metered charge at a constant atmospheric pressure, then the expansion will directly go toward moving the piston, but we cannot do that on a gasoline engine due to the way the air has to be throttled in order to control the engine.

Soooo, steam ends up being the next best thing to introduce as an inert space-taker in the combustion chamber. Then when you ignite the rarefied charge of air + fuel, it is expanding alongside the partial pressure of the water vapor, instead of filling some degree of vacuum, which results in more of that expansion going to directly moving the piston.

Suffice to say, it is something I would like to experiment more on my own car. As for the HHO scene, I believe it could be a helpful effect to naturally complement the whole combustion of HHO thing. It will be helpful from a standpoint of idle/low load operation to ensure the actual HHO contribution can be as potent as it can be. Personally, I'm not (yet) convinced that HHO makes sense, but I do think that complementary steam induction can only assist whatever you are achieving (and just enhancing plain gasoline combustion, altogether).

My personal interest is such that using H2 alone as a supplementary fuel under idle/low load conditions is the real ticket (objective- use less gas than you normally would have as the engine is putting around town). Access to oxygen is not really where we are hurting when it comes to internal combustion engines, unless you are shooting for maximum hp output, imo. Adding more of it only confuses the engine controls, as many of you have discovered. If you are really interested in achieving a "full burn", then it is time and temperature that is the limiting factors. The former is naturally limited by the inevitable appearance of the exhaust stroke, while the latter will be actively regulated by the engine controller via mixture richness and ignition timing to meet its own priorities. You can guess that it is in the catalyst where the exhaust is treated to likewise achieve what you are trying to do in the combustion chamber with the HHO, imo.

[makindue]

Hi redrat100. How can I measure it through the condenser? Do you know how to use it? Can you teach me please?
________
Colorado Medical Marijuana Dispensaries (http://colorado.dispensaries.org/)

[BioFarmer93]

Cold water fog/mist into intake cools intake charge/increases density ergo turbo boost pressure = higher compression... Combustion, with or without HHO, flashes water to superheated steam = higher compression. Steam wishes to occupy about 1600 times the physical space (at atmospheric pressure) that the amount of water that made the aforementioned steam previously occupied. Except it's not at atmospheric pressure is it? NOooo.. It's crammed into the top of a cylinder with a bunch of burning hydrocarbon fuel and donating it's expansive energies to the general push to get out = more bang for the buck. G'nite...

[Owen_]

So I'm just going to jump into this thread. I've read quite a bit on this subject over the years and may have something to contribute.
So as far at an HHO cell making steam, it just seems like a bad approach, KOH and extra alternator draw is reason enough to look elsewhere. Making steam into HHO is a different subject. I read somewhere that GE developed a electrolyzer for steam. It separated the H and the O and had a lot of platinum in it, but this is a field worth exploring. The book I read this in said it was highly efficient, but I don't know the voltage used or anything useful like that.

Okay so with water and or steam thinking about boiling point and pressure is quite important. wikipedia Boiling_point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boiling_point)
So if you put warm water into your intake, it will likely boil in the vacuum. Then it gets compressed in the cylinder and condenses, then it gets super heated and boils, producing lots of pressure.
If it is already steam going into the intake, about the same thing happens.

So with a compression ration of 10:1 you would have 140PSI pre-combustion, at this pressure water boils at about 350F; a temp unlikely to be seen pre-combustion, but defiantly seen post.

So if we are pumping steam into the engine, the steam quality (aka dryness) don't matter much. If we just spray water in it will do about the same thing, it's just harder to atomize as well.

To make the steam we could just warm the water up to the rad. water temp, and let it boil under vacuum. Or use a crude exhaust heat boiler. I say do anything but heat it with electricity, as that will rob you engine of energy with a draw on the alternator, there are just too many other options.

The major problem I see is: how much water/steam do we want? It should be proportional to the fuel used, so if you set it up, have an on/off switch and set if for highway driving... or what would be really sweet (and expensive) is a extra fuel injector in the manifold spraying water on the same pulse signal as the other injectors, with a high pressure water supply.

[myoldyourgold]

Just a little experience I had. 1974 Dodge van 360 carb 1 ton. I installed a commercially available drip system because I was pulling a 28 foot trailer from California to North Dakota. It had a vacuum line hooked to some kind of electronics that controlled the amount of water dripped into the carb. I noticed major difference on climbing hills and at one station where we filled up the gas was so bad that I passed other cars stopped on the road who I had met at the same station who thought their engines had blown up because of the extreme amount of pinging. I had none. To my amazement there was no gain in mileage with it on or off. The reason I brought this up was because of using vacuum to control the system is a simple way to control the system except in a diesels.

[Owen_]

From what I've read, FE gains are not that common. But with water/steam you can lean it way out.

[BioFarmer93]

Owen,
Cold mist is going to give you the denser intake charge. Higher pressure (70 psi) 12v pumps are available at Northern Tool. I just bought one this week, it's for spraying weed killer, fertilizer and insecticides. I'm using it on my diesel. High pressure and a properly sized & shaped nozzle orifice are what is going to give you the fog-like quality of mist that you seek and is called for. No macrodrops, just microdroplets.

On another board I follow, a couple of guys developed an exhaust heat operated nickel tube catalytic device that turns urine into co2, steam and hydrogen rather efficiently, enough to run a generator on. Here in HHOForums, I have learned of Larry's experiments with very low voltage electrolysis and urea based electrolyte.
So, I propose an experiment, the development of a completely new type of high temperature steam/H2/HHO cell & electrical generator that utilizes only waste heat from the engine to make the steam, hydrogen, electricity and HHO. You got game, Owen? 'Cause I already got a design, it just bullied its way into the front of my mind while I was reading your post. Give me a day or two to work up a conceptual plan to present for critique.

[Owen_]

and what is this other forum?.. I really shouldn't ask, I just got a little obsessive with another, new to me, forum: ecomodder.com

also; I look forward to seeing your plans!

[Owen_]

also, on the a mentioned forum, I have been discussing heat recovery for a ICE. Primarily the discussion has been aiming a little low; to power the alternator off steam. But making an effective boiler off the exhaust and cooling system is what it's all about.

A few years back I wrote a grant for a local competition thing. I proposed an exhaust boiler powering a turbine which turned a generator, which made HHO. The research from that project is actually why I found this place! The grant didn't work out, it was more of an art thing anyway (I have a background in fine art, which is why i know art is bull $hit, engineering is where it's at). So I have read a lot of old books about boilers, and steam quality and....

[BioFarmer93]

LOL! No prob on the plans, starting them now. OUpower.com is the other forum, got your usual mix from wizards to weirdos. Try to stay away from the OU topics, Luke... There is much reading on the dark side. :rolleyes:
So what did you get obsessive about at the new board???

[Owen_]

The most impressive thing to me is the many people doing aerodynamic modifications to there cars, and with impressive results. No one seems to know anything about HHO, other than the scams, so I've been posting a bit on that. I've also been experimenting with my driving style based on things brought up. Now I'm trying accelerating at an average of about 2,800RPM and 75% throttle (rather brisk for me), and then popping it into N for as long as possible, then jumping back up to seed and repeat. I used to drive as gently as possible, but have found that my engine gives much more torque for the fuel if run a little harder (but not too hard).
I'm enjoying OUpower already. I'm exited to see a foundry,smelting, casting category, backyard aluminum casting is one of my fondest pasted times!

[Owen_]

Oh, also, do you use the same SN at OUpower? It's just nice to know, I just registered as DrJerryrigger, as I used to be known here, that is until I got band for spamming :confused:

[BioFarmer93]

No, I'm CLFLYGUY over there, an ancient, ancient screen name from my earliest AOL training wheel days. While you're over there you've really got to read up on AlaskaStar's stuff. He's a real no BS young wizard from the top of the world with "the gift". I checked out Ecomodder last light, right after you posted about it, I'm gonna have to devote some reading time to that site because aerodynamics is the one true great love of my life, be it sailplanes, cars, sailboat sails, wind turbine blades (current love) or performance kites. With my wife, our ultimate goal is to live off grid with wind and solar for power, hydrogen and batt bank for storage, aquaponics for food, earth covered hose for insulation & element(s) protection and a semi-passive ammonia absorption HVAC system that uses a parabolic trough (solar) to provide the heat for the expansion of the refrigerant and photovoltaics to power the low current needs of the valves and trough shutters.
I also was tickled spitless to find that aluminum smelting and casting info over there. That is something I have needed the knowledge & ability to do, to be able to pursue my retirement income ambition of making custom low wind speed (Fla.) wind turbines.

[Owen_]

For off-the-grid living you should check out the DIY electric cars on EM

[Roland Jacques]

I agree, that if you understand the merit of steam, that recovering the heat to make steam from the engine is the way to go.

I don't believe the vacuum of the intake is high enough (or provides enough time) to fully atomize water droplets to there smallest possible size. That's the main reason why i think steam works better. I beleive the smaller the water size the quicker and and more completely it can help FE.

I also beleive there is a small advantage in getting the water temp being closer to the steam/flash temp in the combustion chamber. Less wasted energy.
Again where talking Fuel economy, not power. (they sort of go hand in hand so...)

I also think their may be some dissociation of H2O to HHO. I no the temps are "on the low side for that to be possible", but some the things ive seen lead me to think otherwise.

I think steam could best benefit Fuel Economy by its ability to allow for some extreme leaning of air fuel ratio like with HHO, but possible even more so. This is something i planned on playing with.

http://better-mileage.com/water2.html
related link http://better-mileage.com/water4.html

[randycat99]

I've begun my tinkering project using this product I found at Overstock:

http://www.overstock.com/Home-Garden/E-Ware-3.75-liter-Humidifier/4719219/product.html?cid=123620&fp=F&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=12630867

I just wanted to share my impressions that this is actually one cool device (personal ultrasonic nebulizer). It's not even for the cool fog that it produces (which it does seem to achieve a good amount).

It's that it has these cool mood LED's that shine into the tank while it operates, which is something I completely did not expect, based on the product description. Here's the real kicker- these LED's shift to different colors over time! I just have to give kudos to them for going a little out of their way to make for a VERY cool effect on a device as mundane in purpose as to simply humidify air. http://www.hhoforums.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[jbalat]

Guys, I have had only 1 to 10% savings on and off on a 3.0L v6 pajero/montero.

I have been talking to Les who authored the D17 efie document. He says that steam is bad. Water is ok because it can expand but steam reduces the combustion.

I noticed one day I kept adding naoh to try and get more gas. I was running at 15 amps and the car was very smooth.. When I hit 20 amps the car really started struggling for power.

Les mentioned that this was the limit where my cell would be producing more steam than hho.

[Roland Jacques]

I have been talking to Les who authored the D17 efie document. He says that steam is bad. Water is ok because it can expand but steam reduces the combustion.

.

Steam in a engine becomes Fine water instantly.

The Induction (intake) air cools the steam on contact. Even with very large amounts of steam, it turn the steam back into fine water, instantly, way before the combustion chamber. The smaller the water particles the faster it can absorb the heat and turn into steam/kinetic energy.

In reality you would be lucky to be able to raise the Intake Air Temp 10 degrees with steam. No "steam" there just fine water

FWIW "Steam" is not visible to the eye. When you see what we call steam, it is actually already condensed water vapor.

[jbalat]

What you are saying makes sense I guess, but how do you explain my sudden loss of power when running at 20Amps ?

I can try it again...
I remember that when I tried it was night and it was raining, so I had the lights on, wipers going and heater/fan on to demist the window, maybe the extra drain from the hho generator was too much for the electrical system in the car ?

BTW do you know of anyone who has made any savings in a Pajero/Montero ??

[Roland Jacques]

You mentioned 2 different things. i was only addressing your friend Les's statement about steam.

A HHO cell / electrolyser making steam is not good. That is not the kind of steam source i would recommend. Steam from a electrolyser can be bad on many levels. Your issue has little to do with steam. It has more to do with efficient operation of your HHO cell ETC which is off topic from this thread. Maybe start a new thread with your question, or read some old ones.