newbie questions - run through

[jerrygoldsmith]

First off, I'm THRILLED to find this site. Been browsing it for a week now or so. Nice to find somewhere that's not trying to sell me $400 kits and stuff.

Well, here I go. I'm an IT guy buy trade, but automobiles are out of my field of knowledge (for now!). So yes, I'm going to ask some dumb questions.

I only ask these because I'm either still not clear, or I've searched the web and this forum and found contradictory information. I know some of this is probably up to the engine, the method of the HHO-installation, and some is just your personal preference from whoever said it. So please forgive my newbie-ness :D I'm so SICK of all the lies and pay-per-kits out on the web, sick sick sick! I've not paid for a thing, and now that I'm laid off I REALLY don't want to pay for them!

Simple straight-forward system to set up on my car, just to start me out and get my feet wet (no pun intended).
BTW, I have a 2001 grand prix
Enclosed cell with +/- blah blah blah tube into engine. Starting with a wet-cell for now, very basic.

1: Where should I pull the power from? Alternator seems the best bet, instead of pulling it from the battery. I was going to wire a switch into my dash to complete the circuit and just turn it on and off as needed/wanted during testing. Thinking of putting in some sort of fuse/resistors on a 3-circuit switch for "Off / Max voltage / Min Voltage" in case it starts to get overheated or short something out.

2: Bubbler purpose is to catch unwanted particles (like K/NaOH), and sometimes to just have a place for the gas to catch and let any water vapor condense correct?

3: Where to input the gas. From what I can tell, the only place the air comes in is the tube that runs through my Air Filter and through/into the throttle plate correct? So behind the air filter would be my guess.


4: I've read that some people have to have an EFIE and yet some seem to do well without it (or they don't mention it). I've read that if you 'warm' the gas before entering the engine that you don't really need an EFIE? If this is true and not just another stupid rumor, couldn't I just run some copper tubing in coils near the radiator then into the engine or something like that? Spending $60 on one is not an attractive though, and I'd spend that much just trial-error building one of the darn things even with instructions.


5: Ideal power to run through? If running straight from the car (via alternator or battery whatever) isn't enough, what would be the ideal Voltage and Amperage? I could always wire up an inverter then run a DC converter from one of my many gizmos I have laying about (and yes, I know that's not the most efficient way but for now just to get it up and running....)

6: Should I worry about the Oxygen? Or just have one tube out funneling all the gas instead of a partially separated cell?

Thanks to anyone who took the time to read all that. And thanks to you ALL for this forum!

[Philldpapill]

You say you're an IT guy? How much electrical experience do you have?

I'll answer the stuff that is in my field...

Ideally, you should have the lowest possible voltage that will still produce HHO. This is for efficiency reasons, and keeping the cell cool. When the cell is cool, you will have alot less water vapor mixed in with the gas, and less electrolyte particulates, too - KOH is bad news for your engine...

The best way to accomplish this low voltage, is to use a few cells in series. The most prolific is the "dry cell", which is basically a bunch of plates and spacers, sandwiched together to effectively put the cells in series. When they are in series, each plate drops a fraction of the 12V, resulting in a low voltage per cell and increased efficiency.

You will probably need at least 30A to really get some decent gasses being produced. Remember, this "HHO" is really 2H2 and O2 - a VERY dangerous mixture, so keep the least amount of gasses stored in your electrolyzer as possible. A single static electricity spark can blow your whole setup into pieces, and possibly injure you or other people.

[jerrygoldsmith]

Thanks for responding! as bad as it sounds, I don't have as much electrical experience as I should have. I'm the IT guy that gets shuffled around too much to really dig in deep :rolleyes: But I've got time on my hands now :)



The most prolific is the "dry cell", which is basically a bunch of plates and spacers, sandwiched together to effectively put the cells in series. When they are in series, each plate drops a fraction of the 12V, resulting in a low voltage per cell and increased efficiency.

That is what I thought, but all the info I saw for Dry Cells made them out to be much much more complicated. Do you have a recommendation on how much 'space' between the spacers and plates?


You will probably need at least 30A to really get some decent gasses being produced.

My battery is 650cca but that's just for cranking so its probably a few hundred running solid. Something with 30amp breaker/fuse perhaps? Since amps is 'drawn' and I'm just dumping current into the HHO cell, that shouldn't be to hard.
Sounds like using broken solar cells would just require too many panels for that (unless I want to shell out for some mega solar cells but they'd just get ripped off somehow I'm sure)


Remember, this "HHO" is really 2H2 and O2 - a VERY dangerous mixture, so keep the least amount of gasses stored in your electrolyzer as possible. A single static electricity spark can blow your whole setup into pieces, and possibly injure you or other people.

I'll take out the bubbler for now :D

Thanks again for the input. Anyone else?





EDIT

Ok, re-read this thread http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=5423&page=2
Thinking I should just get some batteries in the trunk and wire them up like that. I don't trust people not to rip off an on-board solar panel so I'd have to have some at home to plug them up to. I'd really like a better solution though :s Think brain.... THINK!

[korlj]

Just plug it directly into the battery, if you get more amps then you must be getting better HHO conversion!


As for the EIFIE why not just disconnect the Oxygen sensor instead? Save yourself $80 on one of those HHO specific sensor thingies.

[biggy boy]

Hi and welcome to the forum Jerry.

If it was me I would keep the bubbler. It acts as a flash back arrestor,
to help prevent a flame/spark from reaching the HHO generator cell.
It also helps a bit to remove the caustic and helps to keep it from going into the motor.

Some people use two bubblers.

I have a bubbler and then another container which is a household water filter housing.
It has a water filter in it and is also filled with little plastic beads.
It acts as a big flame flashback arrestor and removes moisture.

Here is a video of it. This is where I got the idea from!
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=pjckac1#play/uploads/30/R3zU4s54Lco

Glen

[biggy boy]

Just plug it directly into the battery, if you get more amps then you must be getting better HHO conversion!


As for the EIFIE why not just disconnect the Oxygen sensor instead? Save yourself $80 on one of those HHO specific sensor thingies.

Hi Korlj

Do you work for one of the big oil companies or something?

If it were me I would install a 60amp fuse in-line with the battery and the gen.
I would also have a 40 amp relay, that I could remotely turn on or off from the inside of the vehicle.
The switch would also be in series with a oil pressure switch or vacuum switch, so that the generator could not be accidentally run if the vehicle is not running.
I would not want the HHO to be going into the motor if the vehicle is not on and running.

Glen

[korlj]

Hi Korlj

Do you work for one of the big oil companies or something?

No. Why do you ask?


Ok, so you could probably do better by doing the above, but adding more parts just costs more money you probably don't need to spend. Fuses and relays can always backfire (or catch fire if its a fuse which can ignite bubbler). Especially if you get some costly EFEI that you don't even need.

[biggy boy]

No. Why do you ask?


Ok, so you could probably do better by doing the above, but adding more parts just costs more money you probably don't need to spend. Fuses and relays can always backfire (or catch fire if its a fuse which can ignite bubbler). Especially if you get some costly EFEI that you don't even need.

LOL :p Yes yes you are right it is ALWAYS better to save money then to have a safe setup :confused: YES of course a fuse would definitely be a hazard and blow up you cells:rolleyes: Who needs those pesky safety stuff anyway, they just cost money:rolleyes:

You scare me man big time Korlj

Buh-bye Korlj you are now officially on my ignore list.

[jerrygoldsmith]

Wow.... um.... Korlj..... um..... should I buy pot from you? :confused::confused::confused:

I know I'm a newb at this, but giving deliberately DANGEROUS and BAD information is just..... a dink move.



So... I've got some of that other stuff figured out, THANKS BIGGY BOY for your input!!! You too Phil

What do you all think about this? I'm going to just make a simple easy wet-cell system first to see what kind of initial improvements I see. Move on to a Dry-cell once I get all the parts (gotta figure out what I'll need first for that too!).

I'll put a valve split where this mystery-line comes into my vaccum hose just past the air filter before the Throttle Assembly. The gas will go in there along with whatever that line is pulling, sharing the same 'port' so to speak.

I checked and my car has Electronic Fuel Injection or whatever its called. So I'll probably need one of those EFIE devices. In case I do, is there one that anyone has had good results with? I've seen a LOT of suspect devices that.... well, look shoddy and sketchy at best. I don't have a ton of cash around but building one would probably cost me just as much with all the trial-error.

Jerry

[biggy boy]

Phil has some good advice!

For EFIE's I like the digital ones.

Fuel savers claim theirs is digital.
Link here:
http://www.fuelsaver-mpg.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=77&products_id=192&zenid=1ac01a48ca8a421e69fb1345fcaea051

I'm also looking into this one He claims his is a real digital one.
Link here:
http://hhoelectronics.blogspot.com/

He is a member here.

here's a post on the subject, by him:
http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=4699&highlight=HHOelectronics

You may want to check into one of these too!?!?
http://yhst-19807630266082.stores.yahoo.net/fs2hhoedition.html

Glen

[jerrygoldsmith]

Assuming my car is OBD compliant or whatever it is, this one looks easiest http://yhst-19807630266082.stores.yahoo.net/fs2hhoedition.html

BUT you don't seem to have as much control over the settings, its all automatic. Its plug and play i guess.

Gonna take this slow, as I'm worried I'd be one of those people that to save money I have to spend hundreds of dollars on various sensors and adjusters to make this work :eek:

I'm going to get working on it this week, using something like this for my dry cell once I'm ready http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Smack.pdf minding of course any common-sense changes and the like. Just for a template for now.

Once I get things up and running I'll post what I did and any results I can measure, so those like me who are just starting might get farther along without having to search hell and high water to find answers.

Any other input from ya'll? Not counting Korlj or whatever his/her name is....

[biggy boy]

Jerry that link is for a wet cell I think?!?!?

Here is alink for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyMA7x2wfV0&feature=PlayList&p=AFE0C21ED792D60B&index=0&playnext=1

And the plans are here:
http://smacksboosters.110mb.com/BB_Smack.html


Glen

[borgdrone]

another newbie. hi.

I thought that Smack one WAS a dry cell? Isn't the dry cell just the plates spaced by neutral plate spacers?

I've looked at other 'dry cells' online and they all look like that, except they have a valve in and a valve out, and the plates are all exposed.
http://www.hho2u.com/images/4x421_main.jpg
Nothing is enclosed to hold the water. Where is the water stored? Some magical invisible tank? :confused:

people talk of holes in the plates, but wouldn't the water just come out the edges?

[biggy boy]

another newbie. hi.

I thought that Smack one WAS a dry cell? Isn't the dry cell just the plates spaced by neutral plate spacers?

I've looked at other 'dry cells' online and they all look like that, except they have a valve in and a valve out, and the plates are all exposed.
http://www.hho2u.com/images/4x421_main.jpg
Nothing is enclosed to hold the water. Where is the water stored? Some magical invisible tank? :confused:

people talk of holes in the plates, but wouldn't the water just come out the edges?

Not exactly sure what you are asking but.
See that black "O" ring that is a seal. There is one in-between each plate. The water sits between the plates and is held in by the "O" ring seal.
There is a tube with holes drilled in it that fills each cell space on the BB smack. Some designs have a hole in each plate at the bottom the let the water level equalize and level out in the cells. the hole does cause some current leakage thou.

Glen

[jerrygoldsmith]

another newbie. hi.

I thought that Smack one WAS a dry cell? Isn't the dry cell just the plates spaced by neutral plate spacers?

I've looked at other 'dry cells' online and they all look like that, except they have a valve in and a valve out, and the plates are all exposed.
http://www.hho2u.com/images/4x421_main.jpg
Nothing is enclosed to hold the water. Where is the water stored? Some magical invisible tank? :confused:

people talk of holes in the plates, but wouldn't the water just come out the edges?

I think the idea is to avoid the edges and backs of the charged plates and avoid the loss that a wet-cell provides. The edges of the plates leave a lot of current bleeding out underutilized, so having just the face of the plates exposed means you are maximizing your potential current utilization.

... I think. :o