Debate: Batteries vs alternator to power HHO cell

[Helz_McFugly]

for short trips like to work and back every day (150 miles round trip or 3 hours total) only recharged once a day

would it be less strain on your car to run your HHO on your alternator OR the weight of having a few batteries, maybe Deep Cycle Marine Battery's (40 lbs each) in your car to run your HHO. I would think 4 would be enough for 3 hours but Ide like to hear someone with a better electical background do the math on this one.

another thing to factor in. you will be paying for the elct. on your elct. bill to charge those batteries so how many killowatts does it take to charge 4 batteries.

[Roland Jacques]

What would be the point?

You would be robing "Peter to pay Paul". they're on the same team.


You mite as will buy some gasoline put it in a can. then while you are driving slowly pour in your air intake. Presto better MPG:rolleyes:

Phil, your rubbing off on me LOL (thank you)

[Helz_McFugly]

true true.

I guess the question would be is it cheaper to charge 150 lbs of batteries at home on your AC current and only lose very little MPGs because of the weight.?
or have the HHO system drawing off your alternator and having the loss there?
or is the difference between the two enough to worry about? I mean we could only be talking about a few cent in savings one way or the other but the batteries are about $75 each. lol thanks for helping me answer myself. :p

[Roland Jacques]

true true.

I guess the question would be is it cheaper to charge 150 lbs of batteries at home on your AC current and only lose very little MPGs because of the weight.?
or have the HHO system drawing off your alternator and having the loss there?
or is the difference between the two enough to worry about? I mean we could only be talking about a few cent in savings one way or the other but the batteries are about $75 each. lol thanks for helping me answer myself. :p

Yep, I love those moments, i have them all the time.:D

You could do the math, im fairly curtian what your outcome would be.

[IM2L844]

I use 2 batteries, connected in parallel in my trunk. Each one has a reserve capacity of 160 minutes. With a 25 amp load that gives me about 4 hours of run time before I need to recharge. That works out to about 300 highway miles at 75 miles per hour, but I rarely get close to going that far at one time. Usually, just 60 minutes a day and it gets parked in a secure location, so a 50 watt solar panel keeps it charged. This set up, for over a year and a half has consistently given me another 7 MPG gain over using my vehicle's electrical system to run my electrolyzer.

The batteries cost me $60 each and the solar panel cost me $179, but I do a lot of camping and they whole system is easy to disconnect, remove and set up for a remote power source. I've used it a few times for power outages as well.

[Roland Jacques]

I use 2 batteries, connected in parallel in my trunk. Each one has a reserve capacity of 160 minutes. With a 25 amp load that gives me about 4 hours of run time before I need to recharge. That works out to about 300 highway miles at 75 miles per hour, but I rarely get close to going that far at one time. Usually, just 60 minutes a day and it gets parked in a secure location, so a 50 watt solar panel keeps it charged. This set up, for over a year and a half has consistently given me another 7 MPG gain over using my vehicle's electrical system to run my electrolyzer.

The batteries cost me $60 each and the solar panel cost me $179, but I do a lot of camping and they whole system is easy to disconnect, remove and set up for a remote power source. I've used it a few times for power outages as well.

Good idea, I would not have thought it would equal that much MPGs

What kind of car is it?

What were your MPG's? No hho, hho, & hho plus battery & solar panel

[Philldpapill]

Ok, here's some math that I THINK you wanted Helz...

We'll assume your car only uses about 40hp going down the road, and gets 30MPG(no HHO or anything -just stock). 1hp = 746W, so if you use 40hp for one hour, that is 29.84kWh. My electricity in Texas is about $0.12/kWh, so that would equate to $3.58 in electricity usage. Gase prices around here are about $2.25/gal. Assuming you're charging is 100% efficient, then it would cost you nearly 60% MORE in electrical energy, rather than using chemical energy(gasoline).

That is comparing strictly a gasoline powered car, to an electric vehicle that requires the same power requirements, which should be accurate. In reality, your charging of the batteries might be about 80% efficient, so it would actually be even MORE costly to run on electricity.

I know your question wasn't exactly pertaining to this comparison, but I hope that gives an idea of the feasibility of it. However, I think you were asking if it is better to just put the strain on the engine, rather than the batteries. I think the answer to your debate, would be a question - "What are you trying to do? Save money?"

If you are just trying to save money, then I'd say use the alternator with just a minimal battery bank so that it can even out the load on the alternator if you have some peak demand. Hauling a battery bank around doesn't really affect your mileage TOO much, but the added cost and complexity might end up biting you in the end.

[biggy boy]

What if the batteries are free and the hydro is free? (work)

[biggy boy]

Wouldn't you need to calculate how many gallons per hour of gas, your vehicle uses with and with out the added batteries to properly calculate the saving. Then compare the gallons per hour saving to the cost of charging
the batteries back up.

Example: say you save I don't know maybe 1 or two gallons per hour.
times the price of gallon of gas. lets use 2 gallons x 2.25= $4.50 an hour saved by using extra batteries. This is hypothetical here!!

Then figure out how much it cost to charge up those extra batteries.
find out how many hours you can drive on that charge.
then you could compare which one method is better.

[Roland Jacques]

Wouldn't you need to calculate how many gallons per hour of gas, your vehicle uses with and with out the added batteries to properly calculate the saving. Then compare the gallons per hour saving to the cost of charging
the batteries back up.

Example: say you save I don't know maybe 1 or two gallons per hour.
times the price of gallon of gas. lets use 2 gallons x 2.25= $4.50 an hour saved by using extra batteries. This is hypothetical here!!

Then figure out how much it cost to charge up those extra batteries.
find out how many hours you can drive on that charge.
then you could compare which one method is better.

Maybe if IM2L844 gives us his real numbers we can figure it out from that perceptive also.


No hho, mpg
hho, mpg
hho plus battery & solar panel mpg

[biggy boy]

Yes
I'm too late for four (IM2L844)
Can you give use some example numbers?

[oicu812]

Ok, here's some math that I THINK you wanted Helz...

We'll assume your car only uses about 40hp going down the road, and gets 30MPG(no HHO or anything -just stock). 1hp = 746W, so if you use 40hp for one hour, that is 29.84kWh. My electricity in Texas is about $0.12/kWh, so that would equate to $3.58 in electricity usage. Gase prices around here are about $2.25/gal. Assuming you're charging is 100% efficient, then it would cost you nearly 60% MORE in electrical energy, rather than using chemical energy(gasoline).

That is comparing strictly a gasoline powered car, to an electric vehicle that requires the same power requirements, which should be accurate. In reality, your charging of the batteries might be about 80% efficient, so it would actually be even MORE costly to run on electricity.

I know your question wasn't exactly pertaining to this comparison, but I hope that gives an idea of the feasibility of it. However, I think you were asking if it is better to just put the strain on the engine, rather than the batteries. I think the answer to your debate, would be a question - "What are you trying to do? Save money?"

If you are just trying to save money, then I'd say use the alternator with just a minimal battery bank so that it can even out the load on the alternator if you have some peak demand. Hauling a battery bank around doesn't really affect your mileage TOO much, but the added cost and complexity might end up biting you in the end.hmmm. your a electrical engineer??? My charger uses less than 1000 watts and I can charge a completely dead deep cell marine battery in 6 hours. At 12 cents a kwh I come up with 72 cents not $3.58

[biggy boy]

hmmm. your a electrical engineer???

LOL :p my thoughts exactly! :p

OH man I can't stop laughing! Pure entertainment I tell you LOL!!

OK time to put Phil back on my ignore list. LOL too funny!!


Glen

[Roland Jacques]

Smacks video rechaging batteries

Saved $4 on gas with HHO ( i think when the video was done gas was close to $4 so thats $2.25 now-a-days)

19 hour charge = 2.69 kwh= $0.40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnLMOGvKyxU

[oicu812]

Electrical systems. Headlights, battery charging, active suspension, circulating fans, defrosters, media systems, speakers, and other electronics can significantly increase fuel consumption, as the energy to power these devices causes increased load on the alternator. Since alternators are commonly only 40-60% efficient, the added load from electronics on the engine can be as high as 3 horsepower (2.2 kW) at any speed including idle. In the FTP 75 cycle test, a 200 watt load on the alternator reduces fuel efficiency by 1.7 mpg.[25] Headlights, for example, consume 110 watts on low and up to 240 watts on high. These electrical loads can cause much of the discrepancy between real world and EPA tests which only include the electrical loads required to run the engine and basic climate control.
Fuel-efficiency decreases from electrical loads are most pronounced at lower speeds because most electrical loads are constant while engine load increases with speed. So at a lower speed a higher proportion of engine horsepower is used by electrical loads. Hybrid cars see the greatest effect on fuel-efficiency from electrical loads because of this proportional effect.

Many people assume the electrical power from the alternator is free and would go to waste if not used, this simply is not the case. the more load on the alternator the more energy is placed on its magnetic field which makes it harder to spin which means the engine must burn more fuel to maintain RPM.
Lets say you have a hho cell running at 40 amps @12 volts thats 560 watts. now lets assume your alternator is only 50% efficient, thats 1120 watts. Your allready over 5 mpg in the hole.No wonder most people here see little or no gains from hho.

[biggy boy]

And that as oicu812 has pointed out is why I want to put another battery or maybe more in my truck to run the HHO gen. This/ these batteries would be separate from the battery that runs the truck off of the alternator.
Charge the batteries up at work for FREE! and at home on my dime.

I have a 22 watt solar panel, but at 1.4 amps it would take forever to charge.
I don't know. My commute to work is about 25 minutes each way.

[Philldpapill]

oicu, Yes, I'm an EE. You laugh at me for your own lack of understanding? I'm confused...

You're telling me, you are pumping 83A into your deep cycle battery??? What size battery is this??? Assuming this is a 12V battery, if you are pushing 1kW into them for 6 hours, that is an average rate of 83.33A. And you claim this is for 6 hours? That's a 500Ah battery. How much does this battery weigh??? 200lbs? Just because your charger is "rated" for 1kW, does NOT mean it's pushing 1kW into the load.

Also, oicu, your battery holds 6kW hours of energy, which equates to about 8hp-hours. In my example, I was talking about 40hp-hours(you even quoted it.........). Your example is off by a factor of roughly 5, and oh! look at that... ~5 * $0.72(your number) = ~$3.60 which looks strikingly close to $3.58(my number), doesn't it?

Glen, if you want to "block" me, go ahead, man. Also, you're seriously going to charge your batteries off the company that puts food on your table? Wow, nice set of morals ya got there, bub.

[oicu812]

your absoutly correct the charger is rated at 1000 watts but I'm pushing way less into the battery. I usually set it at the 10 amp setting and its fully charged after 6 hours. When calculating kwh to see how much it will cost to opperate it you have to measure the watts your using out of the outlet. Let me try and make it simple for you phil. Lets say you have a 100 watt light bulb and light it for ten hours, you would use 1kwh at a cost of 12 cents. I know these things must be very hard for you to wrap your head around but with some effort maybe we can teach you basic electricity.

[Philldpapill]

oicu, I may seem like a prick, but I am never condescending or patronizing. I speak from knowledge and experience, and I try not to talk like I know sooooo much more than you. If I seem like I am, I appologize.

Now, as far as your comment goes... Yes, you are right - what matters is how much power is being consumed at the source. However, STILL you are not "using" 1kW when 120W is being delivered to your battery. You are probably using around 130-150W from the source(the outlet). In your case, NO, it would not cost $0.72 to charge your battery for 6 hours(like you said.....). Even with the worst case, you are only pulling 150W from the wall outlet, so over 6 hours, that is only 900W-hours, or about $0.108. With you implying that you are using 1000W, that's very dishonest at best, and twisting my words at least.

I'm not mad at you trying to push my buttons, by implying that I'm stupid. This isn't a forum that is intended to insult each other on a personal level. However, you look like a fool when you think you are implying I'm stupid, when it is YOU that doesn't understand the subject.

[Philldpapill]

This is stupid. I don't want to talk about who's an idiot and who is not, or who understands stuff and who doesn't...

Back to the subject - Is it beneficial to use batteries to power your HHO cell, and recharge them with the wall outlet, or your alternator?

I'm think it is more efficient to use the alternator... We can obviously see a gain by using HHO in the first place. We have established that with today's gas prices, it costs LESS, per unit of energy(hp-hour or kWh), to use gasoline. By that logic, using your gasoline powered engine and alternator, it should be more cost effective to recharge the batteries, correct?

[oicu812]

the only thing you're correct about so far is the stupidity. If you think electricity is cheaper comming from your car why don't you pull your electric meter and run your house off your car. do a little research and find out how much you lose in mpg simply running your daytime running lights.Really phill, you need some profesional help.

[Philldpapill]

oicu, it is cheaper. We just went over this!

An average 2.0L 4 door sedan, going 60MPH, uses about 30-40hp to maintain the speed. If you travel for one hour, you are using 30-40hp-hours. There are 746W in one horsepower. Therefore, your car is using the equivalent of 22.38-29.84kWh EVERY HOUR. If you were to buy it from the electricity grid, that would be $2.6856-$3.5808 PER HOUR, or roughly 30 miles(assuming 30MPG).

Your car may use more or less hp, so it MIGHT be cheaper to use the grid if your car is very inefficient.

Now, oicu, explain to me what I'm missing. Maybe I do need help, because you are making me feel like I'm in a nuthouse.

Does anyone else understand this??? At current gas prices, a totally electric vehicle would probably cost more. If fuel prices went up by 20% or so, then sure, it would be more economical to use an EV.


EDIT: As per your last question, oicu, that's not a bad idea... However, factoring in the extra maintanence required for running my car 24/7(can't let that freezer thaw!), it might end up costing more... I'll check it out and keep you posted.

[Philldpapill]

Also, in regards to the nighttime running lights..... Assuming each headlight pulls about 10A, that's 20A for the headlights, and maybe another 10A for the misc. other lights... 30A for the daytime lights. I've always thought you would lose SOME MPG, but let's calculate that out for a second since you are asking to be shot down - again.

30A * 12V = 360W.
360W = 0.4826 horsepower
Average highway hp needed: 30-40hp
Percentage increase in hp with running lights: 1.66 - 1.21%

Assuming 30MPG, running your lights would change your mileage by:
-------------------------------
-------> 0.5 - 0.36MPG <-------
-------------------------------

Not a whole lot of change, but yes, it can affect your mileage a fair amount. If you are using an HHO cell, it will also affect your mileage around the same amount(assuming 30A useage), but you should make up more than this amount by using the HHO.

EDIT: As a comparison, your AC uses a few hp. This can affect mileage as much as 3MPG.

[IM2L844]

Yes
I'm too late for four (IM2L844)
Can you give use some example numbers? You got real close, but it's "I'm too Late for FORE"

It has to do with my propensity to be late for tee time and my horrible slice once I get there.

First, I would like to say that I'm nowhere close to breaking even. I've spent way more money trying to develop a proof of concept than I will be able to recover anytime soon, but that holds true for all pre-production R&D efforts...even for large companies that are already geared up with well equipped R&D departments.

Anyway, I have an '88 Chevy Nova with more than 320,000 miles on it that I use for research. I actually get a kick out of driving it though. I've been collecting data for almost 2 years in all kinds of driving, traffic, road and weather conditions as well as various electrolyzer set ups. My results are not due to subconscious driving behavioral modifications or excessive tire pressures.

The bottom line is 32 MPG without HHO. 36 MPG with HHO powered by my vehicle's electrical system and 43 MPG with HHO supplied without a load imposed on my vehicle's electrical system.

[Philldpapill]

Hmmm, if you've got good data, then that goes against conventional theory. Interesting... I always like it when something does NOT work out the way it is intended. Theory in a perfect world is great, but the real world is the ultimate judge of what will or will not work.

If your unloaded gain is 43mpg, then thats an 11MPG increase - over 33%! The question then, is WHY is your system loading your engine so much? What kind of current/power are you pulling, IM2L844? Maybe your system could be modified to operate more efficiently, so that you can load your electrical system/engine, but not as much and STILL get nearly the same gains as your unloaded HHO production?

[biggy boy]

Really phill, you need some profesional help.

:p LOL

It would be good to have one of those kWh meters like the GREAT
Smack has in his video. Due to the fact that the charger continuously consumes less and less power in the process of charging a battery, in your example the charger starts out at ten amps but goes down to less then 1/2 an amp by the end of the charge cycle.

Glen

[biggy boy]

I've spent way more money trying to develop a proof of concept than I will be able to recover anytime soon, but that holds true for all pre-production R&D efforts...even for large companies that are already geared up with well equipped R&D departments.


Yes very true on the cost of R&D

About 7 years ago I work on a team helping out with the setup of injection molding machines, presses,
material mixers and material metering scales, to develop a hydrogen fuel cell.
I did all the electrical hook-ups, electrical maintenance and custom cabinet and controls for the equipment.

The cells were made out of special resins and carbon.
Injection molded into a plate/cell and compressed under tonnage.

We worked on this project with DuPont for about 2-3 years.
Several employees from DuPont would come every day to our plant
and make, test and modify there design for the cells. Lots of trial and error and money going out the window in waste and scraped cell.
This all took place in the "secret lab" there was only a hand full of people that had access via a card reader.
They gave up after several years of doing this, at a very hefty cost.
But it was really cool seeing it all and learning about the process.

Glen

[jerrygoldsmith]

So, first reading this thread I was going to use my Alternator to power my system. Then batteries in the trunk. Then alternator.

Now I'm thinking to avoid more confusion, I'll just build a nuclear reactor in my car and just use that ;)

Anyhow, if the efficiency of the alternator is such a big deal, would adding another 12v device (@30amp) really drag it down as much as that? I've seen people with dozens of devices (Ham radios, scanners, cb's, all with amps) in a dash hooked up and it doesn't seem to hurt his car over the last 3 years.

[Roland Jacques]

:p LOL

It would be good to have one of those kWh meters like the GREAT
Smack has in his video. Due to the fact that the charger continuously consumes less and less power in the process of charging a battery, in your example the charger starts out at ten amps but goes down to less then 1/2 an amp by the end of the charge cycle.

Glen

You can get them at Harbor freight $24.99. They are handy.

[Roland Jacques]

Hmmm, if you've got good data, then that goes against conventional theory. Interesting... I always like it when something does NOT work out the way it is intended. Theory in a perfect world is great, but the real world is the ultimate judge of what will or will not work.

If your unloaded gain is 43mpg, then thats an 11MPG increase - over 33%! The question then, is WHY is your system loading your engine so much? What kind of current/power are you pulling, IM2L844? Maybe your system could be modified to operate more efficiently, so that you can load your electrical system/engine, but not as much and STILL get nearly the same gains as your unloaded HHO production?

Yeah i agree, it may be worth doing some more research into this.

[Helz_McFugly]

I can solve all this with 3 words. zink, copper, potatoes. AHAHHAHAHEHEHHE :p

[biggy boy]

I can solve all this with 3 words. zink, copper, potatoes. AHAHHAHAHEHEHHE :p

Hey Helz are you building the B.B. smack 21 cell 6x6?

[biggy boy]

You can get them at Harbor freight $24.99. They are handy.

Thanks for the heads up!

Funny thing I'm standing in the hardware store waiting for an item to be brought out from the back today, just standing there waiting waiting, look down and there is a bin full of energy meters, on sale for $24.99
So I bought one!
It's a Blue Planet EM100
I have it hooked up to my 120 volt portable hot tub, the tub is chugging away at 1010 watts!


Glen

[Philldpapill]

Yeah, those things are NICE! Does it accumulate power, i.e. does it give an energy used readout?

[Helz_McFugly]

Hey Helz are you building the B.B. smack 21 cell 6x6?

yes it is, only no water level check on that first plate.

I wanted to make sure I could get some extra MPGs on this 08 charger with my cheapo first attemp 1 LPM cell. so now that I have, and i know it can be done, Im ready to start the building of a nice stable system. I would like 3.5 LPM or more. that should be easy with a 21 plate dry cell.

[biggy boy]

yes it is, only no water level check on that first plate.

I wanted to make sure I could get some extra MPGs on this 08 charger with my cheapo first attemp 1 LPM cell. so now that I have, and i know it can be done, Im ready to start the building of a nice stable system. I would like 3.5 LPM or more. that should be easy with a 21 plate dry cell.

That one is my favorite design so far!
I'm making the same one, but using 18 plates. (3 six cells in parallel), because I planed on running the cells off of just the battery bank, not hooked to a alternator.
12.3-12.8 volts as opposed to 13.5-14 volt with an alternator.

I did make up 3 extra plates in-case the battery bank idea doesn't work,
I can put the the plates in. and then run off the alternator.

Glen

[Helz_McFugly]

he sells the gen 4 dry cell for $295 delivered. I may just buy one from him rather then build one. ide prolly spend more then $300 making it because I always over do it and try and improvise something into my builds of what ever it is im building and end up with so much unused stuff. Just like this setup I have now in my car. I keep rebuilding it and trying different things with it & every time I reconfigure it I spend about $100 to $150. Like this weekend was the 4th time ive dramaticly rebuilt it. i bet ive spent around $500 not including the $100 i spent on the VOLO. Im on my 4th bubbler and Ive only been experimenting with HHO for about a month now. if I had blueprints of the cell im running now and bought ONLY the parts used to build it, I would say its around $175. so theres $325 of experimental trial and error stuff. but that was the fun part, tryin different things and learning so much. but yea I think ill just buy his gen 4 dry cell and save some time and money. Im going to starting fighting my electical system now. I think Im going to get a VAFC and experiment with that for a while

[Roland Jacques]

Yeah, those things are NICE! Does it accumulate power, i.e. does it give an energy used readout?


Yep, mine is the same as smack used in that video.

[Roland Jacques]

That one is my favorite design so far!
I'm making the same one, but using 18 plates. (3 six cells in parallel), because I planed on running the cells off of just the battery bank, not hooked to a alternator.
12.3-12.8 volts as opposed to 13.5-14 volt with an alternator.

I did make up 3 extra plates in-case the battery bank idea doesn't work,
I can put the the plates in. and then run off the alternator.

Glen

I was wondering if a constant current PWM would be a good idea when using batteries only? i would think without one your current (& HHO output) would drop as time lapsed.

[Roland Jacques]

I still having a hard time believing that 200-300 watts could cost 20% (5-7mpg) decrease in MPGs. Maybe on a 40 HP VW bug ...
I honestly think driving with my lights on (100 watts) is going to effect my MPG in a recordable way, but ill give it a test. I'm trying to think of something with constant 200 or 300 watt draw that i can hook up to test on my mini van.



But for now ill stick with these numbers. i would think that somehow you could regulate your charging amps from your alternator to say 100 watts. So you would need to charge as much from your other source

[biggy boy]

My charger uses less than 1000 watts and I can charge a completely dead deep cell marine battery in 6 hours. At 12 cents a kwh I come up with 72 cents not $3.58

1000w where did you see that rating?

My 10 amp charger is rated at 2 amp max on the 120 volt input.

120x2= 240 watts so even if it was running full tilt at 2 amps
that would be 1/4 KWh per hour

I'm running a charging test right now and my max amp draw on the 120 volt side was 1.74 amps at start up. After 3 hours of charging its sitting at 1.4 amps.

Once the charge test is completed, I'll post the results using my new KWh meter.

[Helz_McFugly]

next time you see a deal like the meters, you need to get on your phone and call every one of us on the forum and see if we want one. :p selfish *******

[biggy boy]

next time you see a deal like the meters, you need to get on your phone and call every one of us on the forum and see if we want one. :p selfish *******

LOL just swing by the store and grab one I just google maped it and it's only
a 22 hour drive. 2313 KM/1437 miles. Geez man stop being so lazzy:)

Glen

[oicu812]

1000w where did you see that rating?

My 10 amp charger is rated at 2 amp max on the 120 volt input.

120x2= 240 watts so even if it was running full tilt at 2 amps
that would be 1/4 KWh per hour

I'm running a charging test right now and my max amp draw on the 120 volt side was 1.74 amps at start up. After 3 hours of charging its sitting at 1.4 amps.

Once the charge test is completed, I'll post the results using my new KWh meter.

thats simply the wattage rating from the nameplate on the back of the charger. I'm sure I'm using way less. unless I slice open the cord and get a clamp on amp meter on the cord its imposible to get a accurate reading. Modern battery chargers have alot of sofisticated electronics in them so reading the amp reading on the DC side might not be totally accurate. From reading the specks on the chevy volt its massive battery pack only costs about $3.00 to charge. about the price of a donut and cup of coffee.

[Roland Jacques]

thats simply the wattage rating from the nameplate on the back of the charger. I'm sure I'm using way less. unless I slice open the cord and get a clamp on amp meter on the cord its imposible to get a accurate reading. Modern battery chargers have alot of sofisticated electronics in them so reading the amp reading on the DC side might not be totally accurate. From reading the specks on the chevy volt its massive battery pack only costs about $3.00 to charge. about the price of a donut and cup of coffee.

Even an amp meter on the A/C side would not give you a good number.
Unless you know the Power Factor. thats why the Watt meters are nice.

My aquarium lights draw 2.63 amps at 119 volts, you think that would be 312 watts, but the PF is around .55__ my watt meter says it draws 175 watts.

[biggy boy]

Ok I did a test with one of the big batteries I’m planning on using to run my HHO gen.

The battery is an Exide Commercial Premium Heavy Duty. I have four of these.
Model F-4DLT

See photo for battery specs.


I hooked up two headlight bulbs to the test battery and ran the cells down to 4 Volts under load.
Disconnected the load and let it sit for 15 minutes to rebound
Back up. The battery rebounded back to 10.72 volts under NO load.
I then hooked up my 120 volt charger and set it for 10 amp charge setting.
Using a fluke clamp on meter to read the amp draw to the battery and a fluke bench tester to monitor the batteries voltage.
The charger was plugged into my new KWh meter.
At the 2 hour mark the battery was drawing 7.4 amps, On the low voltage side.
The charger was drawing 1.4 amps at 120 volts.

Here are the final recharge results:
Charge time 13 hours 12 minutes
Starting amperage DC 10amps
Max amps at start up 120volt 1.78amps
Max Watts at start up 120volt 187
Total KWh 1.62
My cost here in Ontario @$0.059 per KWh, this is average.
Non peak is $0.042
Peak is $0.076 average = $0.059
Total cost to charge battery = 9 cents
These numbers are direct read off from the KWh meter, that the charger is plugged into.

Man I need to get a better charger the 10 amp deal is too small.
This one is old and very basic not even an automatic.
I'm looking at getting one of the electronic pulse chargeres does up to 20 amps down to 2 amp trickle.

[Philldpapill]

Roland, just curious, does it show what kind of power factor the load is? i.e. Lagging or leading(capacitive or inductive)?

[Helz_McFugly]

$30 at www.skymall.com is this the one you got?

http://www.skymall.com/images/products/SMH/102675357d.jpg

[Roland Jacques]

Even an amp meter on the A/C side would not give you a good number.
Unless you know the Power Factor. thats why the Watt meters are nice.

My aquarium lights draw 2.63 amps at 119 volts, you think that would be 312 watts, but the PF is around .55__ my watt meter says it draws 175 watts.

correction the meter said the PF is .62 (not. 55)

Phill it does NOT say leading or lagging just PF, hz, watts, volts, amps, Kill a watt hr, and time.

mines a P3

http://www.google.com/products?sourceid=navclient&rlz=1T4ACAW_enUS300US300&q=kilowatt+meter&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=pjiwSunKFMaStgei5NSqCA&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&ct=title&resnum=1

[biggy boy]

$30 at www.skymall.com is this the one you got?

http://www.skymall.com/images/products/SMH/102675357d.jpg

Yes thats it exactly.

[oicu812]

damn ... I got to get a couple of those.