Hello all (please read this)

[richard_lyew]

hello everybody im new to this forum and im glad i didnt know of it in my time of testing because there are alot of misleading stuff on here. anyways here is my 2 cents. running your car on water is not easy, it took me 4 months to fully correct all the problems but now im getting about 150MPG if i -30 on my AFC but if i want to be cheap and drive below 3000RPM then i could get anywhere from 200MPG to 300MPG, i am not here for the back talking and all that but i would like to share a few tips for those who are trying to run their car on water. 1 get a high amp alternator with a small pulley and minimum drag on the belt, 2 make sure you have a pressure safe system, meaning if too much pressure builds up it has a BOV (blow off valve) also make sure that all containers can withstand -pressure (high vacuum), 3 find a way to keep the mixture cool and circulating, 4 have a bubblier that drains back the the main storage tank, 5 please and i cant stress it enough, please use a AFC or SAFC or SAFC2 or what ever AFC you can get your hands on, I use a VAFC, 5 don’t store over 10psi of hho, 6 make you system so it can withstand very high amperage, maybe 200amps, 7 add batteries, maybe four more, 8 use 0.5AWG wires or lower, 9 add a solar panel and rectifier circuit to help keep batteries charged. well i cant just give you all the answers because nobody helped me but please keep in mind people it is NOT impossible it just takes a little time and dont depend on solenoid valves because it you have no power they don’t work. on keeping the mixture cool, a small oil or transmission cooler with 2 or 4 computer case cooling fan (which used next to no power) does wonders, if you have any question and i think its worth answering feel free to drop me a line at richard_lyew@hotmail.com and remember its NOT impossible just learn to keep your mixture cool and your amp usage down with a high flow rate. ooops i almost forget tip 10 please dont connect your HHO line to your air filter or air filter box or any air line because the air will just dilute your HHO and make it weaker then you wouldn’t see any difference at all, instead please connect it directly to the vacuum, i use the line that connects the break system to the vacuum because its always easy access. i hope this will help alot of people out there. i stop putting videos on youtube because there are alot of spooky and shady people out there. im not here to sell you anything ider because you can make it yourself, stop being lazy. Peace and one love

[Helz_McFugly]

you said 5 twice :p

PLEASE WATCH THIS VIDEO. IT WILL SAVE YOU FROM READING THIS ENTIRE THREAD;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bP9D6APmSjA

[Helz_McFugly]

The system stated in post #1 DOES NOT EXIST It is ony an Idea from the mod of this thread. I will remove this when the mod of this thread shows even one trace of evidence that said system does exist, otherewise save your reading time for better threads.

[Philldpapill]

I hate coming right out and saying this, but richard, you are either a blatent liar, or you need to go back and re-learn how to calculate gas mileage. I know those are strong words, but here is why...

The average ICE is around 25-30% efficient. Even if you were to get 30mpg normally, and assuming you were able to increase your effiency to 100% chemical to mechanial energy efficiency, you would only get 120MPG. 150MPG? That's a lie... Unless you're riding a single cylinder scooter... But you can't equip a high current alternator, can you?

The battery addition does nothing. If your alternator can't continuously put out the 200A needed, then you are just draining your batteries, i.e. using the electrical energy in the batteries for power(which must be recharged, but from what?). Basically, the setup you describe is completely unsustainable.

How much solar area are you using??? The sun puts out about 1kW/m^2, but solar panels are not efficient... even if your panel was 15% efficient, that's 150W/sq. meter. If you are pulling 200A @ 12V, that is 2.4KW CONTINUOUS needed power(but your alternator is supplying this??? Then why the battery bank?) Even if we believed that your solar panels are supplying enought power to recharge your batteries and operate in a steady state(i.e. the batteries are not being depleted), then you would need at least 16 square meters of solar panels...(150W each, 2.4kW needed).

Bottom line: I don't know what your motivation for posting this is. There is a slight chance that you genuinely BELIEVE all that stuff you posted, but in the real world, it's just bogus. Putting a couple computer cooling fans on your ENORMOUS hho cell(200 Amps???) is just silly... You are probably generating at least 500W of heat from your cell(usually at least 20% of the energy you put in goes into heat). There is no way a couple computer fans can dissipate that kind of power. All in all, your whole description has pieces that are way off in scale(e.g. the computer fans).

What is your motivation in spreading this BS? I smell a scam... It's so strong it's burning my nose.

[Helz_McFugly]

If you have a car, any car with an HHO setup on it that gets 100 to 300 MPG's, even if its turd of a car, drive it to me and Ide trade you for my 2008 Dodge charger and you can drive it home and leave your POS here. ill even fill up the tank for ya :p

[richard_lyew]

lol this is why i dont join forums because its full of people who have fail and thinks there is no other way LOL. the batteries does make sense because you are turning AMP in to gas not just volts, the batteries are a buffer so to speak or a AMP buffer, some people use a high AMP capacitor but i find it cheaper to use some batteries.

and for solar systems, their are alot of high power solar systems sir, you should look into them before you ASSume. i have a friend that runs his recording studio on only solar, please do a little research, it wont hurt.

now to heat, i said use a oil or transmission cooler with 2 to 4 fans, you said put fans on your generator LOL, also i said find a way to keep your mixture cool, you look pass that, their are alot of things i have stated that you know solve alot of problems but you dont want to talk about them, i bet u 1 of them spooks mofos but forget you. i also stated storing a small amount of HHO but not too much, just about 15kg@10 psi again as a buffer, ha ha but you dont want the word to spread about buffering do you?. you want to keep people minds simple with simple systems. just try to make the gas at a high rate and then if that fail and the electrical system cant hold up then thats that, right?.

as i said in my first post i didnt join this forum to fight with people, if some body have some valid questions feel free to ask.

oh yea, why does my generator have to be enormous because it is pulling a peak of 200amps?, so you are saying the the amperage depends on the cell size and not the conductivity of the mixture and the surface space that it is touching? and wow you want to stress the computer fans? because i can spare a post for that if you would like.

ok back to my system, let me try to put it simpler, make a system that keep your mixture circulating, make sure to have a storage tank different from your cooling unit, and your generator. think about this for eg. note when you start your generator it is putting a good amount of gas but as time goes by and the mixture gets hotter its starts to pull alot more amps, maybe even doubling but if you turn it off and let it cool down the amps will go back down, this is why i said try to keep the your mixture as cool as possible, i use a transmission cooler front mounted with 4 computer case cooling fans, the fans are for when im not driving or there is not enough wind passing through the trans cooler, basicaly the fans are there to keep the trans cooler cool thus keeping the mixture kool.

aslo build your generator with 3 ports, 1 for fluid in, 1 for fluid out and 1 for HHO out, keep im mind you need to keep the fluid moving from storage to cell to cooler, the cooler the mixture the better, i hope somebody can share a better cooling method because the cooler the better. i built a system for my friend and he said he added a extra trans cooler and its doing wonders for him, i never taught of that. also i want you to keep in mind is, make sure everything that the mixture is touching is stainless steel, copper tubing, hot water pvc or hotwater tube like the tube use on your radiator to your engine.

make sure that your bubblier is mounted highest, your generator is mounted lowest, your storage tank and your cooling unit is on the same level. pulse your fluid pump, no need to leave it running.

later i post more

[richard_lyew]

If you have a car, any car with an HHO setup on it that gets 100 to 300 MPG's, even if its turd of a car, drive it to me and Ide trade you for my 2008 Dodge charger and you can drive it home and leave your POS here. ill even fill up the tank for ya :p

i will take you up on that offer but instead of the dodge, i would prefer something cheaper like say a 2004 Subaru Imprezza (JDM). as soon as my patent is finish i will share all info and do a 2001 or higher toyota corrolla getting no less than 200MPG and ship it to you. all you have to do is test drive it for a month then send me the Subaru.

[richard_lyew]

I hate coming right out and saying this, but richard, you are either a blatent liar, or you need to go back and re-learn how to calculate gas mileage. I know those are strong words, but here is why...

The average ICE is around 25-30% efficient. Even if you were to get 30mpg normally, and assuming you were able to increase your effiency to 100% chemical to mechanial energy efficiency, you would only get 120MPG. 150MPG? That's a lie... Unless you're riding a single cylinder scooter... But you can't equip a high current alternator, can you?

The battery addition does nothing. If your alternator can't continuously put out the 200A needed, then you are just draining your batteries, i.e. using the electrical energy in the batteries for power(which must be recharged, but from what?). Basically, the setup you describe is completely unsustainable.

How much solar area are you using??? The sun puts out about 1kW/m^2, but solar panels are not efficient... even if your panel was 15% efficient, that's 150W/sq. meter. If you are pulling 200A @ 12V, that is 2.4KW CONTINUOUS needed power(but your alternator is supplying this??? Then why the battery bank?) Even if we believed that your solar panels are supplying enought power to recharge your batteries and operate in a steady state(i.e. the batteries are not being depleted), then you would need at least 16 square meters of solar panels...(150W each, 2.4kW needed).

Bottom line: I don't know what your motivation for posting this is. There is a slight chance that you genuinely BELIEVE all that stuff you posted, but in the real world, it's just bogus. Putting a couple computer cooling fans on your ENORMOUS hho cell(200 Amps???) is just silly... You are probably generating at least 500W of heat from your cell(usually at least 20% of the energy you put in goes into heat). There is no way a couple computer fans can dissipate that kind of power. All in all, your whole description has pieces that are way off in scale(e.g. the computer fans).

What is your motivation in spreading this BS? I smell a scam... It's so strong it's burning my nose.

you always pointing out the faults but never mention any solution mr.mentor. here is one more thing for you to think about while you are reading all this. the bigger the storage tank the harder it is to bring the fluid to boiling point. by this you must know im not your regular "if it dont work it will never work" kind of guy". if at first it dont work i will find a way. i have 1 more part to my system that i cant mention until patent is complete and that is, when my car is in the sun it is always making HHO and storing it even when its off and parked and when it has enough in storage it brings the batteries to the highest AMP it can then stop doing stuff. that is a taste of the future and i currently have it driving everyday. my mind never stops mr.mentor. for me there is always a way. let me leave you with something before i go because i dont know when i will get to post anything more again. ok here goes tell me how far could 15kg of HHO at 20psi take a 2liter engine car?

[Roland Jacques]

Richard, I have to be up front with you, I don't believe your results ether. But i am open to hear what you have to say.

I dont understand why you recommend external coolers. Couldn't you just design your electrolyzer to run cooler?
(some cells can run below 110 fahrenheit for hours)

What are AFC, SAFC, SAFC2, or a VAFC ?

What kind of car is this in?

[Helz_McFugly]

fair enough. :cool:
what car is your system on now?

[Helz_McFugly]

here is a SAFC 2
http://www.ecrater.com/product.php?pid=1819939
a very $$$ one

[Roland Jacques]

A couple of things & and questions


.
1 get a high amp alternator with a small pulley and minimum drag on the belt,


The smaller the pulley the more torque is required to turn it. the bigger the pulley the easier it would be to turn (less drag)


2 make sure you have a pressure safe system, meaning if too much pressure builds up it has a BOV (blow off valve) also make sure that all containers can withstand -pressure (high vacuum),

3 find a way to keep the mixture cool and circulating,

4 have a bubblier that drains back the the main storage tank,

5 please and i cant stress it enough, please use a AFC or SAFC or SAFC2 or what ever AFC you can get your hands on, I use a VAFC, 5 don’t store over 10psi of hho,

6 make you system so it can withstand very high amperage, maybe 200amps,

What is your goal here? Quantity of HHO? if so what is the LPM needed to achieve your results? (to keep up with the demand of your 2 liter engine.)


7 add batteries, maybe four more, 8 use 0.5AWG wires or lower,

9 add a solar panel and rectifier circuit to help keep batteries charged.


well i cant just give you all the answers because nobody helped me but please keep in mind people it is NOT impossible it just takes a little time and dont depend on solenoid valves because it you have no power they don’t work. on keeping the mixture cool, a small oil or transmission cooler with 2 or 4 computer case cooling fan (which used next to no power) does wonders, if you have any question and i think its worth answering feel free to drop me a line at richard_lyew@hotmail.com and remember its NOT impossible just learn to keep your mixture cool and your amp usage down with a high flow rate. ooops i almost forget tip

10 please dont connect your HHO line to your air filter or air filter box or any air line because the air will just dilute your HHO and make it weaker.

The amount of HHO is the same where ever you introduce it, right? So are you saying it has more_????????_ closer to the combustion chamber? If so, what do you think the _?????_ is?



then you wouldn’t see any difference at all, instead please connect it directly to the vacuum, i use the line that connects the break system to the vacuum because its always easy access. i hope this will help alot of people out there. i stop putting videos on youtube because there are alot of spooky and shady people out there. im not here to sell you anything ider because you can make it yourself, stop being lazy. Peace and one love

[biggy boy]

Welcome to the forum Richard.

I look forward to learning more from you! :)


Glen

[Helz_McFugly]

lol this is why i dont join forums because its full of people who have fail and thinks there is no other way LOL.

I doubt your resons for this. these forums are here to share info and to debate for the better of the HHO community. If you are holed up in a little garage doing this all alone and come up with what you say you have and keep it to youself it might as well not exist. you talk of a patent which means you are shooting for $. do you really think big oil will let you make it through the door to get that patent. youll more likely be sleeping with the fishes. you are better off spreading videos and blueprints and hope for the best. but if youre trying to patent something and make money youre waisting your time. big oil knows more about HHO and hydrogen power then we do. why do you think all these companies sell all this low end BS, that says it works but doesnt do sh1t, and get away with it and theres no companies out there that sell systems that are legitimately getting 100% + gains in MPG's? the technology is known by them. the closer we get the harder they try to debunk it which is why when we, the small people, come upon a finding we broadcast it as much as possible so it gets out and more people build and use it.

lets say I stumble upon a system that will get a standard 25 MPG car up to 100 MPG's, call it product X, and I try to patent it and sell it to the public and to the car mfg's. do you really think they would let that happen? do you really think a trillion $ industry would just let some joe sell something that would cut 75% of their income and let the economy of this nation crash? the only people who will ever have product X will be the mechanically inclined enough to install it themselves and service it them selves. maybe one day we will transition off oil but it would take a very long time. maybe my great grand kids cars will come stock running on water or some other renewable resource. there are alread plenty of cars that run on hydrogen alone. there are even hydrogen ueling stations. why not just convert the world? OIL PROFITS, and the tax on the oil sales, thats why.

[Philldpapill]

Richard, well you got lucky. I just wrote about a full page of stuff for you, but I clicked "Quote" and it got erased. I'm not going to spend much more time on this issue. I've seen a lot of scams, and you seem to fit the mold so far... I'm just waiting for some revolutionary product, or plans that you have to offer.

Anyway, I don't want to argue with this. I busted my butt for 6 years in school, learning some pretty intersting and complicated stuff(Masters in Electrical Engineering with a focus on Semiconductor physics and power electronics). It may sound condescending to most people on here, and I appologize in advance... But when I say you are wrong about something pertaining to this... There's a good chance you are. It's not so much ME accussing you, but hundreds of years, and millions of people that have done research and experiments on the subject. I did the easy part, and just went to class and listened to people lecture about it. I didn't do the REAL work - but I do know what works and what doesn't about alot of this. Again, I know that sounds like I'm a stuck up A-hole, but it's true...

Anyway, as for you calling me Mr. Mentor... I didn't bestow that title... The forum software does after 100 posts.

[oicu812]

you always pointing out the faults but never mention any solution mr.mentor. here is one more thing for you to think about while you are reading all this. the bigger the storage tank the harder it is to bring the fluid to boiling point. by this you must know im not your regular "if it dont work it will never work" kind of guy". if at first it dont work i will find a way. i have 1 more part to my system that i cant mention until patent is complete and that is, when my car is in the sun it is always making HHO and storing it even when its off and parked and when it has enough in storage it brings the batteries to the highest AMP it can then stop doing stuff. that is a taste of the future and i currently have it driving everyday. my mind never stops mr.mentor. for me there is always a way. let me leave you with something before i go because i dont know when i will get to post anything more again. ok here goes tell me how far could 15kg of HHO at 20psi take a 2liter engine car? don't let phill the pill **** you off richard. i've been thinking outside the box also. Mass of 1 mole hydrogen gas (H2) = 2 grams.
So the mass of 22.4 liters (stp) H2 is 2 g.
1 kilogram = 1kg = 1000 grams.
1 cubic foot = 28.25 liters
1000 grams of H2 = 500 X 28.35 liters = 11,200 liters
i'll pm you and email you tommorrow . i've got a ton of questions.

[Roland Jacques]

don't let phill the pill **** you off richard. i've been thinking outside the box also. Mass of 1 mole hydrogen gas (H2) = 2 grams.
So the mass of 22.4 liters (stp) H2 is 2 g.
1 kilogram = 1kg = 1000 grams.
1 cubic foot = 28.25 liters
1000 grams of H2 = 500 X 28.35 liters = 11,200 liters
i'll pm you and email you tommorrow . i've got a ton of questions.

Why dont you ask your questions here?

Why dont you think others would also be interested in your questions and answers?

[richard_lyew]

Richard, I have to be up front with you, I don't believe your results ether. But i am open to hear what you have to say.

I dont understand why you recommend external coolers. Couldn't you just design your electrolyzer to run cooler?
(some cells can run below 110 fahrenheit for hours)

What are AFC, SAFC, SAFC2, or a VAFC ?

What kind of car is this in?

now this is someone that is open for knowledge, ok the reason why i use an external cooling system is very simple. if you are looking to make high amount of gas you cant always control the temperature of the mixture no matter your design, feel free to prove me wrong, the day you can make a generator that puts out 30LPM and can run for 1 hour without boiling and double the startup AMP without and cooling system then im wrong and will stop practicing eletrolsis all togather. and all cells can run for hours even days below 110 degrees farernhite, but doing what? putting out how much gas? pulling how much AMPs?

and for AFC's please do some read up on these devices, i told Helz_McFugly to do the same, but here is a quick thing about them, they give you control of your fuel usage at all aspect of you car's engine RPM, so lets say you are coming to a stop and you want to cut back and all the fuel you can without stalling your engine. like for me i can run my car at -50 at idle, if i dont have my system on it would stall at -18.

so there it is 1. keep mixture cool that way you wont have to worry about AMP going over the top, killing your car battery, burning wires, tripping breakers, etc.... 2. AFC's let you fully controll your fuel usage at all RPM's.

keep the questions coming but i wont go into the HHO storage system. and keep in mind the sun is very good.

[richard_lyew]

don't let phill the pill **** you off richard. i've been thinking outside the box also. Mass of 1 mole hydrogen gas (H2) = 2 grams.
So the mass of 22.4 liters (stp) H2 is 2 g.
1 kilogram = 1kg = 1000 grams.
1 cubic foot = 28.25 liters
1000 grams of H2 = 500 X 28.35 liters = 11,200 liters
i'll pm you and email you tommorrow . i've got a ton of questions.

ha ha haaaa now this is what i like to see. now how far do you think you can get running 11,200 liters of HHO directly to the vacuum of a 2liter engine car @ no higher than 3000RPM, also i found a calculator online some time ago that calculates your engines air usage, it does this by you putting in how much cylinders your car has vs the diameter and stroke or each cylinder, once you find out how much air your car uses then you will have an idea of the flow rate you should be regulating to your vacuum, and remember that HHO is 3 times more powerful than your regular gasoline so say you only need half the amount, im not ganna say 1/3 because it's always facing dilution once it reaches the engine.

Roland Jacques bring on the questions. it seem you are one of those outside the box

i will try to find that calculator online again and post a link to it. i have a copy on my computer and i also use other calculators. the make these kind of stuff so much easier.

hey Helz_McFugly i just saw the user cp LOL

[richard_lyew]

Richard, well you got lucky. I just wrote about a full page of stuff for you, but I clicked "Quote" and it got erased. I'm not going to spend much more time on this issue. I've seen a lot of scams, and you seem to fit the mold so far... I'm just waiting for some revolutionary product, or plans that you have to offer.

Anyway, I don't want to argue with this. I busted my butt for 6 years in school, learning some pretty intersting and complicated stuff(Masters in Electrical Engineering with a focus on Semiconductor physics and power electronics). It may sound condescending to most people on here, and I appologize in advance... But when I say you are wrong about something pertaining to this... There's a good chance you are. It's not so much ME accussing you, but hundreds of years, and millions of people that have done research and experiments on the subject. I did the easy part, and just went to class and listened to people lecture about it. I didn't do the REAL work - but I do know what works and what doesn't about alot of this. Again, I know that sounds like I'm a stuck up A-hole, but it's true...

Anyway, as for you calling me Mr. Mentor... I didn't bestow that title... The forum software does after 100 posts.

yea here we go with the whole scam bull, please read my very first post i clearly stated that i wasn't here to sell anything or argue with anybody about anything. simply test what i say and prove it wrong sir. also education is very important but dont get too stuck on what you have learned because ive seen so many theory rewrite and rewrite again. plus alot of stuff you learn in school is out dated before you set foot in your first class. new methods and new ways of doing things is forever coming up, like for eg. the best electrolyte, AFC, cooling at very low power, storage, buffering, solar, BOV and all other valves, keeping power... the list goes on and on. i am very happy for you that you got a good education, one needs that when dealing with complex stuff but did you know that you don't have to go to a high cost fancy school to know more than the average man? if you want knowledge all you have to do is go searching for it and with the internet there are alot of infomation out there and its almost free.

here is question for an educated individual like yourself. do you thing it is impossible to build a system that makes and store HHO with only the power of the sun?

[richard_lyew]

I doubt your resons for this. these forums are here to share info and to debate for the better of the HHO community. If you are holed up in a little garage doing this all alone and come up with what you say you have and keep it to youself it might as well not exist. you talk of a patent which means you are shooting for $. do you really think big oil will let you make it through the door to get that patent. youll more likely be sleeping with the fishes. you are better off spreading videos and blueprints and hope for the best. but if youre trying to patent something and make money youre waisting your time. big oil knows more about HHO and hydrogen power then we do. why do you think all these companies sell all this low end BS, that says it works but doesnt do sh1t, and get away with it and theres no companies out there that sell systems that are legitimately getting 100% + gains in MPG's? the technology is known by them. the closer we get the harder they try to debunk it which is why when we, the small people, come upon a finding we broadcast it as much as possible so it gets out and more people build and use it.

lets say I stumble upon a system that will get a standard 25 MPG car up to 100 MPG's, call it product X, and I try to patent it and sell it to the public and to the car mfg's. do you really think they would let that happen? do you really think a trillion $ industry would just let some joe sell something that would cut 75% of their income and let the economy of this nation crash? the only people who will ever have product X will be the mechanically inclined enough to install it themselves and service it them selves. maybe one day we will transition off oil but it would take a very long time. maybe my great grand kids cars will come stock running on water or some other renewable resource. there are alread plenty of cars that run on hydrogen alone. there are even hydrogen ueling stations. why not just convert the world? OIL PROFITS, and the tax on the oil sales, thats why.


you are right about that sir, my lawyer told me the same thing and said it will NEVER get approved, that they will find something to stop it and delay it indefinitely but i say F it lets give it a try, if they stop it well i have a book to release LOL, they cant stop a book. but its what ever for me really, im just glad i can live 1 tank a year or close LOL. i bet all these highly educated top grads cant prove my system wrong. they are already looking into the cooling system right now and what i said about keeping the mixture temperature under full control. just wait until i give them the next thing to think about LOL

[richard_lyew]

Welcome to the forum Richard.

I look forward to learning more from you! :)


Glen

thank you, i got invited some time back but didn't have the time to be on it so i didn't join

[richard_lyew]

fair enough. :cool:
what car is your system on now? sorry for late reply on this, so many post i didnt saw this until now, my system is on my personal car 1998 Subaru Legacy (JDM) fully auto. i have some old videos on youtube when i just started out doing stuff learning about stuff. look for "RDL HHO"

[biggy boy]

Richard
Do you use a pulse width controler to also control your amps, sorry if you have already talked about it.



Glen

[Roland Jacques]

How did you handle the ignition timing on your 2 liter engine pumping "30 LPM" of HHO?

Did you monitor your exhaust gas temperatures? If so, do you have before & after temps?

How do you control/regulate the flow amount of HHO to your motor?

[Philldpapill]

That's an idiotic question, richard. Of course it is possible. Is it feasible witht the setup you described and to the extent of powering your car, recharging it at night, and getting 150MPG? Hell no.

Your kind of posts and general disinformation does way more harm than good to the area of HHO. If I seem like I'm on the offensive about you, well, I do not like frauds giving ME a bad reputation with the BS they spew.

[oicu812]

That's an idiotic question, richard. Of course it is possible. Is it feasible witht the setup you described and to the extent of powering your car, recharging it at night, and getting 150MPG? Hell no.

Your kind of posts and general disinformation does way more harm than good to the area of HHO. If I seem like I'm on the offensive about you, well, I do not like frauds giving ME a bad reputation with the BS they spew.

I thought you said you were leaving the forum. Once again you've swown your true colors. You offer nothing here and critisize all those who try to contribute. BTW you don't need much help giving yourself a bad reputation your doing just fine by yourself.

[Helz_McFugly]

why would you want to run people off who are willing to debate a topic or debunk a scam? the community is small enough, lets not make it smaller. Isnt the goal here to get this technology as public as possible so people who have a great knowledge in a specific field to get in here and do the research otheres might now be able to do?

[Helz_McFugly]

phill email me so i can send you this ISO file of the dvd i was telling you about. helz_mcfugly@yahoo.com

[biggy boy]

why would you want to run people off who are willing to debate a topic or debunk a scam? the community is small enough, lets not make it smaller. Isnt the goal here to get this technology as public as possible so people who have a great knowledge in a specific field to get in here and do the research otheres might now be able to do?

Yes agreed, BUT
It would be nice if the critics would be nice about it.

It appears that some members here seem to freak out at posts made here.
Then threaten to need to punch someone in the face. Or state they need to go punch a punching bag.
To me this is just as discreditable to HHO as a person who BS and lie on the board.
How do you bring credit to HHO if you are constantly flying off the handle?
and calling peoples Ideas "Idiotic"

[Philldpapill]

I'm talking about credibility - not PR. People can think what they want about me, or anyone else on here in a personal way. However, when someone starts in about topics that pertain directly to the credibility of HHO, that's an entirely different story. If this stuff works, let's prove it. If we can get credible evidence of the stuff, let's prove it and show to the world. The only catch is - don't spread BS that doesn't even have the slightest bit of proof.

In a way, it's like the boy who cried wolf. If we have a bunch of uneducated people throwing obvious BS info around(like 150MPG...), then that reflects on the CREDIBILITY of what HHO is and how it works - and importantly, the PEOPLE surrounding HHO. If we consolidate what DOES work, and what does NOT work, and throw the crap out, then we get refined information that can be taken seriously. Otherwise, we, as a community, will be laughed at, mocked, and ridiculed for our research.

I agree, however, that we DO need to be nice to inexperienced people. It may not seem like it, but I DO try to do this... When someone suggests using plain iron as the anode, it's best to tell them in advance that it won't work, along with a brief explaination. I would hope these new people would see that the person telling them has some experience or knowledge in the matter, and not try and prove them wrong - wasting their own time.

However, on the other extreme, when someone gets on here and makes claims that are obviously untrue, you are darn right I, for one, will call them out on it. It's not an ego trip, like some have eluded to. I hope some of you can understand WHY I am a bit of an A-hole sometimes. There are enough scammers and frauds out there, giving ME and YOU guys a bad reputation. If I know for a fact someone is BS'ing, I will certainly call them on it. Otherwise, If I'm not sure, I will look into and give them the benefit of the doubt.

And no, oicu812, I didn't leave. I thought about leaving at one point, but I get drawn back to HHO, which I enjoy. It's one of those very few frontiers that I see as not being fully understood yet.

[Buster]

Phill, first let me just say I think you're OK and I believe your motives are good, but I have some bad news for you...... You are on the wrong road on a lot of the things which you are so certain of. So, so wrong. That's all I am going to say. (200 MPG-is that all!!)

Plus you need to stop trying to throw your weight around!! LOL

[biggy boy]

phill, first let me just say i think you're ok and i believe your motives are good, but i have some bad news for you...... You are on the wrong road on a lot of the things which you are so certain of. So, so wrong. That's all i am going to say. (200 mpg-is that all!!)

plus you need to stop trying to throw your weight around!! Lol

+1 ;)...

[Philldpapill]

That's the kind of crap I'm talking about! 200MPG? The energy content in a gallon of gasoline can not provide the energy needed for an average 2.0L car to move 200 miles without going 200 miles on a downhill slope...

If I were to tell you that I jumped off a 100' bridge yesterday - without a parachute or anything, BUT I just happened to defy gravity and floated upward into the clouds - would you believe me, or would you laugh and consider everything else I ever said there after, a lie? That is the kind of bogus claim "200MPG" is. The person is either knowingly lying, or they have an error in their calculations and were so excited about their "findings" that they failed to double check the accuracy.

[Philldpapill]

Back on topic for a bit....

Richard, WHY is it so important to keep the temperature of the mixture at a precise level? If you could just explain SOME things - mechanisms of action - It would do wonders for your credibility.

[Buster]

"More than 3,000 Americans have produced free energy devices or
ideas for devices but none have reached commercial production due to opposition from influential people who
do not want such devices freely available. One technique is to classify a device as “essential to US National
Security”. If that is done, then the developer is prevented from speaking to anyone about the device, even if
he has a patent. He cannot produce or sell the device even though he invented it. Consequently, you will
find many patents for perfectly workable devices if you were to put in the time and effort to locate them,
though most of these patents never see the light of day, having been taken by the people issuing these
bogus “National Security” classifications. (This situation is not limited to the USA, as people world wide are being harassed, including here in Britain.)

There have been more than 200 patents granted for high-mpg carburettors. These designs all give between 100
and 250 mpg on a US gallon of fuel, which is 298 miles per European gallon . Not a single one of these designs has made it to the marketplace due to the
fanatical opposition of the oil companies. Last year, the Shell oil company posted typical earnings for the year,
which showed that that one (average) oil company made US $3,000,000 profit per hour for every hour of every
day of the entire year. Did you enjoy contributing to that profit every time you bought fuel to burn?
Nearly all of these high-mpg carburettor designs convert the fuel to vapour form before it enters the engine.
There is no magic about this performance, just good engineering practice. It will probably come as a great
surprise to you that the oil companies now put additives into the gasoline. They have 103
10 - 167 varieties of additives and they will explain that these are used to reduce evaporation in summer (as if they care
about that !) and combat freezing in the winter. An “unfortunate” side effect of these additives is that they clog up
any carburettor which converts the fuel to vapour form. Instead of 200 mpg, it is now quite common for US
vehicles to have a 15 mpg performance and that effectively increases the cost per mile by more than ten times.

Another simple invention, by Robert Krupa, is the 'Firestorm' sparkplug. He has encountered strong opposition to their introduction
and manufacture ever since Bosch did testing on them and found that they dramatically reduced fuel consumption & pollution, yet didn't wear out
This plug will not be popular with the oil companies as less fuel is burnt. This is
probably a fallacy because, human nature being what it is, people are likely to keep spending the same amount
on fuel and just drive more. For the same reason, the plug will not be popular with governments who tax fuel.
The companies who make spark plugs will not like it as it does not wear out like standard plugs do. It uses less
fuel and cuts harmful emissions dramatically, so it will be popular with motorists and environmentalists, if Robert
can get it into production.

The energy problem is not technical, it is financial and political."

[biggy boy]

The energy problem is not technical, it is financial and political."

Once again +1

[Helz_McFugly]

I have yet to see any proof of MPG's even being doubled by HHO. NONE! many claims on websites trying to sell their junk and "I know a guy who knows a guy" crap, hundreds of videos of "look at my HHO system hooked up to my car and no mention of the increase of MPG's" on youtube, but not one video, or documented, illistration of proof. Ive seen proof of improving ones MPGs by maybe 25% or 30% but everything else has been nothing but "buy my product and go around the planet on a tank of fuel" BS, or I get 100 MPG's but Im going to speak in riddles to try and make my lie seem plausible. look at the testamonials on this site. If there was just one in there that can prove double MPGs wouldnt we make that person our mentor on here? wouldnt this site have a hall of fame or something.


If anyone can point to some proof , be it youtube or whatever, please do so i can get to work on my system. my goal is to only double my MPG's. If i can do that Ill be a happy MFr and Ill spread HOW I DID IT to everyone.

[biggy boy]

I'll be happy with 30-40% gains

[Helz_McFugly]

ha, ya same here, Im creeping up on 40% but Im shooting for 100%.

If I can get this big heavy Dodge Charger up to 40 MPG's Ill be one happy mo fo. Ill prolly buy an old VW bug or something and ty and double it. I have a son who is 13 and hes going to need a car in a few years.

[biggy boy]

ha, ya same here, Im creeping up on 40% but Im shooting for 100%.

If I can get this big heavy Dodge Charger up to 40 MPG's Ill be one happy mo fo. Ill prolly buy an old VW bug or something and ty and double it. I have a son who is 13 and hes going to need a car in a few years.

Great glad to hear that 40% too cool

[Philldpapill]

Helz, I'm in 100% agreement. Usually, in technology, it's a series of successions of improvement. Anytime there is some HUGE quantum leap, it turns out being fraud.

If anything, if these fraud sites would just boast REASONABLE results, I really would be curious about how that would affect their sales... Maybe more people would stop passing over them, raising a red flag of fraud, and actually buy their product. But whatever... They keep posting 100MPG+ and people keep falling for it. Who said this - "There's a sucker born every minute"? A wise dude...

[Roland Jacques]

Richard,

i just had to bump my questions so you could find them.



How did you handle the ignition timing on your 2 liter engine pumping "30 LPM" of HHO?

Did you monitor your exhaust gas temperatures? If so, do you have before & after temps?

How do you control/regulate the flow amount of HHO to your motor?

[richard_lyew]

Richard
Do you use a pulse width controler to also control your amps, sorry if you have already talked about it.



Glen

no i didnt talk about that, but i dont, instead of using a PWM i found that if you switch power between cells in the same chamber it produce more HHO and still controll your AMP usage. eg. have 2 sets of cell in the same generator then wire your generator so that it switch power from 1 set of plates to the other, to me its better than sending pulse constantly to 1 set of plates and its also cooler. so there you have it no PWM for me just 2x100AMP relay switch and a circuit like what blink your indicator. i try my best to keep it simple.

[Philldpapill]

How fast are you switching between cells, richard? It sounds like you are basicallly using very low frequency PWM... You can look at it as 50% duty cycle for each cell... The same should be accomplished by just putting the cells in series... Unless you are operating right at the voltage needed to initiate electrolysis, and not higher(the most efficient way).

[richard_lyew]

How did you handle the ignition timing on your 2 liter engine pumping "30 LPM" of HHO?

Did you monitor your exhaust gas temperatures? If so, do you have before & after temps?

How do you control/regulate the flow amount of HHO to your motor?

very good question. timing is never a problem for me, ok ill tell you a little more about my system. i use 2 HHO flow lines. 1 has a set flow rate to power the engine up to 1000RPM, the second flow line (a solenoid valve that opens only when i step on the accelerator) adds enough to take the RPM up to 3000. after 3000RPM the AFC will start helping the engine to run high RPM, like say 3000 to 4000 RPM the AFC will add 8% of gasoline. please note if you are going to use solenoid valves, connect them to a battery by itself. do some read up on solenoid valves.

[richard_lyew]

That's an idiotic question, richard. Of course it is possible. Is it feasible witht the setup you described and to the extent of powering your car, recharging it at night, and getting 150MPG? Hell no.

Your kind of posts and general disinformation does way more harm than good to the area of HHO. If I seem like I'm on the offensive about you, well, I do not like frauds giving ME a bad reputation with the BS they spew.

ok sir so you are saying that it is possible, thank you. now for the part two of that question. is it possible for that same system to switch power from the HHO generator after reaching the desired psi, and start charging a battery?

[richard_lyew]

why would you want to run people off who are willing to debate a topic or debunk a scam? the community is small enough, lets not make it smaller. Isnt the goal here to get this technology as public as possible so people who have a great knowledge in a specific field to get in here and do the research otheres might now be able to do?

i like having people like phill on the forum, that way i can let him answer his questions :D

[richard_lyew]

Yes agreed, BUT
It would be nice if the critics would be nice about it.

It appears that some members here seem to freak out at posts made here.
Then threaten to need to punch someone in the face. Or state they need to go punch a punching bag.
To me this is just as discreditable to HHO as a person who BS and lie on the board.
How do you bring credit to HHO if you are constantly flying off the handle?
and calling peoples Ideas "Idiotic"

LOL i guess if someones idea dont match up fully with all the books in the world then its idiotic LOL, hey phill i have a question for you, how much physic theory have been rewrite more than once?

[richard_lyew]

Phill, first let me just say I think you're OK and I believe your motives are good, but I have some bad news for you...... You are on the wrong road on a lot of the things which you are so certain of. So, so wrong. That's all I am going to say. (200 MPG-is that all!!)

Plus you need to stop trying to throw your weight around!! LOL

phill is light weight to me, he dont try to contribute to solving problems but he always point out what he thinks will never work. but its all good because in time a few people will try a few things what i have mentioned and it will work then i wonder what phill will say?. like right now i want people to start cooling there mixture and try to keep the temperature the same or close as possible to startup temperature. then we will move on from there. i only hope phill will be here for all of it

[richard_lyew]

I'm talking about credibility - not PR. People can think what they want about me, or anyone else on here in a personal way. However, when someone starts in about topics that pertain directly to the credibility of HHO, that's an entirely different story. If this stuff works, let's prove it. If we can get credible evidence of the stuff, let's prove it and show to the world. The only catch is - don't spread BS that doesn't even have the slightest bit of proof.

In a way, it's like the boy who cried wolf. If we have a bunch of uneducated people throwing obvious BS info around(like 150MPG...), then that reflects on the CREDIBILITY of what HHO is and how it works - and importantly, the PEOPLE surrounding HHO. If we consolidate what DOES work, and what does NOT work, and throw the crap out, then we get refined information that can be taken seriously. Otherwise, we, as a community, will be laughed at, mocked, and ridiculed for our research.

I agree, however, that we DO need to be nice to inexperienced people. It may not seem like it, but I DO try to do this... When someone suggests using plain iron as the anode, it's best to tell them in advance that it won't work, along with a brief explaination. I would hope these new people would see that the person telling them has some experience or knowledge in the matter, and not try and prove them wrong - wasting their own time.

However, on the other extreme, when someone gets on here and makes claims that are obviously untrue, you are darn right I, for one, will call them out on it. It's not an ego trip, like some have eluded to. I hope some of you can understand WHY I am a bit of an A-hole sometimes. There are enough scammers and frauds out there, giving ME and YOU guys a bad reputation. If I know for a fact someone is BS'ing, I will certainly call them on it. Otherwise, If I'm not sure, I will look into and give them the benefit of the doubt.

And no, oicu812, I didn't leave. I thought about leaving at one point, but I get drawn back to HHO, which I enjoy. It's one of those very few frontiers that I see as not being fully understood yet.

ok phill you always talking about people BSing on here. are you saying that i cannot run my car for 150 miles on only HHO and 1 gallon of gasoline or less?, you are saying it wouldn't be possible for me to make and store enough HHO from solar and while the car is running, to take me 150 miles with only 1 gallon or less of gasoline?. wait it gets worst and i know you ganna hate to answer this question, do you think anybody can make HHO from solar and store enough to drive a car for 100 miles with out gasoline?. and answer all the questions if you can, if you dont want to, no problem man, one love

[Roland Jacques]

I have no trouble keeping my HHO electrolyzer temp under 120 F with no cooler and a very small reservoir. but like you say im not producing 20 plus LPM



very good question. timing is never a problem for me, ok ill tell you a little more about my system. i use 2 HHO flow lines. 1 has a set flow rate to power the engine up to 1000RPM, the second flow line (a solenoid valve that opens only when i step on the accelerator) adds enough to take the RPM up to 3000. after 3000RPM the AFC will start helping the engine to run high RPM, like say 3000 to 4000 RPM the AFC will add 8% of gasoline. please note if you are going to use solenoid valves, connect them to a battery by itself. do some read up on solenoid valves.

Your statements sound like you are ONLY using HHO with no gasoline at all at low RPM. Am i understanding you correctly???

[richard_lyew]

Back on topic for a bit....

Richard, WHY is it so important to keep the temperature of the mixture at a precise level? If you could just explain SOME things - mechanisms of action - It would do wonders for your credibility.

wow a question from phill. ok some people knows that after running your generator for any period of time the density of the mixture becomes higher thous pull more AMPs. am i right so far?, if the mixture is boiling while you are trying to extract HHO from it will you be getting the same amount of HHO or will some of it just be steam from boiling?. so tell me if im wrong for keeping the mixture cool and that it doesn't make any difference if the mixture is boiling while im trying to extract HHO from it, and that if the mixture is hotter it doesn't raise the amperage. thanks for the question phill

[richard_lyew]

"More than 3,000 Americans have produced free energy devices or
ideas for devices but none have reached commercial production due to opposition from influential people who
do not want such devices freely available. One technique is to classify a device as “essential to US National
Security”. If that is done, then the developer is prevented from speaking to anyone about the device, even if
he has a patent. He cannot produce or sell the device even though he invented it. Consequently, you will
find many patents for perfectly workable devices if you were to put in the time and effort to locate them,
though most of these patents never see the light of day, having been taken by the people issuing these
bogus “National Security” classifications. (This situation is not limited to the USA, as people world wide are being harassed, including here in Britain.)

There have been more than 200 patents granted for high-mpg carburettors. These designs all give between 100
and 250 mpg on a US gallon of fuel, which is 298 miles per European gallon . Not a single one of these designs has made it to the marketplace due to the
fanatical opposition of the oil companies. Last year, the Shell oil company posted typical earnings for the year,
which showed that that one (average) oil company made US $3,000,000 profit per hour for every hour of every
day of the entire year. Did you enjoy contributing to that profit every time you bought fuel to burn?
Nearly all of these high-mpg carburettor designs convert the fuel to vapour form before it enters the engine.
There is no magic about this performance, just good engineering practice. It will probably come as a great
surprise to you that the oil companies now put additives into the gasoline. They have 103
10 - 167 varieties of additives and they will explain that these are used to reduce evaporation in summer (as if they care
about that !) and combat freezing in the winter. An “unfortunate” side effect of these additives is that they clog up
any carburettor which converts the fuel to vapour form. Instead of 200 mpg, it is now quite common for US
vehicles to have a 15 mpg performance and that effectively increases the cost per mile by more than ten times.

Another simple invention, by Robert Krupa, is the 'Firestorm' sparkplug. He has encountered strong opposition to their introduction
and manufacture ever since Bosch did testing on them and found that they dramatically reduced fuel consumption & pollution, yet didn't wear out
This plug will not be popular with the oil companies as less fuel is burnt. This is
probably a fallacy because, human nature being what it is, people are likely to keep spending the same amount
on fuel and just drive more. For the same reason, the plug will not be popular with governments who tax fuel.
The companies who make spark plugs will not like it as it does not wear out like standard plugs do. It uses less
fuel and cuts harmful emissions dramatically, so it will be popular with motorists and environmentalists, if Robert
can get it into production.

The energy problem is not technical, it is financial and political."

oh yea the spooks will get to ya, but to get to me they will have to come to the worst part of Spanish Town, LOL i dont realy care about making money off my system because i have saved more than enough on gas already. i will give a diagram of my current generator soon and if any want to build and test it, feel free. and yea i know about those spark plugs and i have the blue prints to them, anybody want?

[cabrera]

After spending some entertaining time reading this thread (Philldpapill finally has an adversary :D)
I also am a bit skeptical about the huge MPG claim but I am also open & willing to learn & try various ideas.
So in that spirit I also want to welcome Richard to the forum.

Great to have you here RDL, you bring a lot of life here.

[richard_lyew]

Once again +1

the world is run by the rich and if something exist to slow their cash flow, it will be erased from the world. this is their world but with the information age it is so hard to keep people under control, and from information. did you know.....

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/PHmwZ96_Gos&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/PHmwZ96_Gos&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[richard_lyew]

I have yet to see any proof of MPG's even being doubled by HHO. NONE! many claims on websites trying to sell their junk and "I know a guy who knows a guy" crap, hundreds of videos of "look at my HHO system hooked up to my car and no mention of the increase of MPG's" on youtube, but not one video, or documented, illistration of proof. Ive seen proof of improving ones MPGs by maybe 25% or 30% but everything else has been nothing but "buy my product and go around the planet on a tank of fuel" BS, or I get 100 MPG's but Im going to speak in riddles to try and make my lie seem plausible. look at the testamonials on this site. If there was just one in there that can prove double MPGs wouldnt we make that person our mentor on here? wouldnt this site have a hall of fame or something.


If anyone can point to some proof , be it youtube or whatever, please do so i can get to work on my system. my goal is to only double my MPG's. If i can do that Ill be a happy MFr and Ill spread HOW I DID IT to everyone.


this is because it seem not much people are buffering or if they are, they are not sharing, ok here goes, you cant and might never have a system for now that can run a car or any other vehicle on itself without some buffer of energy or fuel to start with. eg..you can make alot of HHO from any system but it will not be enough for now, to power your car. it cant run on itself for now. but it can help itself to run better, and it can run on buffer while making more HHO. so the main goal is to make yourself a good buffering system. buffer as much AMPs as you can because AMPs = HHO, then buffer as much HHO as you can because thats what we all need. i mention buffer before but phill or anybody else never asked me about it and what i ment so there.

[Philldpapill]

I know you set me up for it, but sorry richard........ You're wrong. LOL

Here's why: when water is at a higher temperature, the molecules are jumping around, banging into each other - overall, there is more movement and electron "noise". This added energy actually HELPS to overcome the bandgap energy required for the electrons jump from the plate, onto the H+ ions, or at the other end, and electron to jump off of an OH- ion. The result: the threshold voltage potential for electrolysis to begin is lowered. The equation for "excess voltage", is basically, "votlage supplied - Electrolysis threshold votlage". So, if the supply voltage is the same, but the threshold votlage is lower, then the excess voltage is higher. If the cell looks like a resistor to the voltage/current, then it reduces to basic Ohm's Law: V = I*R, or I = V/R. If the resistance is the same, but the threshold is higher, then the current is higher.

That explains why the current increases when the cell temperature goes up. For more information, research "thermolysis". It's basically high temperature electrolysis - VERY efficient when using waste heat.

[richard_lyew]

After spending some entertaining time reading this thread (Philldpapill finally has an adversary :D)
I also am a bit skeptical about the huge MPG claim but I am also open & willing to learn & try various ideas.
So in that spirit I also want to welcome Richard to the forum.

Great to have you here RDL, you bring a lot of life here.


why thank you, i hope to share as much as people will follow and test for themselves. as i said before im not here to sell anything or ask for any donation of any sort, and i will not be silenced!!!!!!!!!!!!! i will take this forum to new heights. NO MORE SIMPLE NEVER WORK SYSTEMS FOR THE PEOPLE.

[biggy boy]

oh yea the spooks will get to ya, but to get to me they will have to come to the worst part of Spanish Town,


Yardy! wha gwan me breda?


Glen

[richard_lyew]

ha, ya same here, Im creeping up on 40% but Im shooting for 100%.

If I can get this big heavy Dodge Charger up to 40 MPG's Ill be one happy mo fo. Ill prolly buy an old VW bug or something and ty and double it. I have a son who is 13 and hes going to need a car in a few years.

this is because your system is still in the simple stage, it doesn't buffer any HHO, it doesn't have any additional power source, it is not fully managed, the list goes on and on. please look into buffering some of that HHO and start your car then feed it to your engine and turn off the fuel pump. and remember where i said is the best place to feel it, directly to the vacuum or right at the intake valve if you can. i remember the first time i made HHO from solar, store it and have my car idle on it alone, it was mind blowing, then from there i never stop until 200MPG!!!!!!. hey phill wait what if i had said 50 miles without gasoline? would that be more feasible than 200MPG?

[cabrera]

RDL

I like that cell, Can you walk me through it.
Does the Subaru have a MAF or Map & are you adjusting the air flow?
Do you have similar emissions requirements? (O2 sensors, Catalytic converter etc.)

http://72.35.72.219/~library/26171/stuff/rdl.jpg

[richard_lyew]

That's the kind of crap I'm talking about! 200MPG? The energy content in a gallon of gasoline can not provide the energy needed for an average 2.0L car to move 200 miles without going 200 miles on a downhill slope...

If I were to tell you that I jumped off a 100' bridge yesterday - without a parachute or anything, BUT I just happened to defy gravity and floated upward into the clouds - would you believe me, or would you laugh and consider everything else I ever said there after, a lie? That is the kind of bogus claim "200MPG" is. The person is either knowingly lying, or they have an error in their calculations and were so excited about their "findings" that they failed to double check the accuracy.

phill stop trying to keep the minds of people simple, 1 gallon of gasoline burnt with what value of what else and how much more combustible is that other item compare to gasoline?. let me give you a quick example, 1 gallon takes a 2.0L car 800 miles, but it was also running on nitrous with the gasoline, the gasoline was set by a AFC or other device to just keep the injectors wet. LOL. is that impossible phill?

[biggy boy]

RDL

I like that cell, Can you walk me through it.
Does the Subaru have a MAF or Map & are you adjusting the air flow?
Do you have similar emissions requirements? (O2 sensors, Catalytic converter etc.)

http://72.35.72.219/~library/26171/stuff/rdl.jpg

Andy! where is that picture from?
did I miss something?


Glen

[richard_lyew]

How fast are you switching between cells, richard? It sounds like you are basicallly using very low frequency PWM... You can look at it as 50% duty cycle for each cell... The same should be accomplished by just putting the cells in series... Unless you are operating right at the voltage needed to initiate electrolysis, and not higher(the most efficient way).

about 3 seconds each switch.

no phill its not the same because if i put the cells in series, because of the condition of the mixture that is between the plates of the cells, remember you are trying to keep the mixture as cool as possible. also if you are just pulsing all the plates at once that means you will have down time in production, eg. on....,off.....,on......,off....... vs use these set of plates while the others cool the switch to the others, back and forth like that. as soon as im done replying im going to post a simple drawing of my current generator.

[Philldpapill]

Arg, richard...... I'm not keeping the minds simple. I'm using common sense and logic. I was comparing an absurdity to a known absurdity. What are you talking about with "burned with what value of what else"??? We are talking about a closed system. Your gasoline engine DOES produce the power for the HHO cell, which feeds into the engine, RIGHT? You aren't using any other additives?

ALSO, nitrous does NOTHING for fuel EFFICIENCY. I suggest you research it... Nitrous breaks down at high temperatures, providing more oxygen to the combustion. It isn't a fuel, or energy carrier AT ALL. They use it in racing so that they are able to dump MORE fuel into the cylinders, and still have enough oxygen for a nice BOOM BOOM.

To answer your question of "is it impossible" to get a car to go 800 miles with no additives? Yes, I would say it is. The energy content in gasoline, assuming 100% energy conversion of chemical energy to mechanical, is NOT enough to move an average 2L car 800 Miles, given the same drag/frictional coefficient loses that accounts for the losses ANY car experiences while moving. Also, wtf do you mean by "keep the injectors WET"???


You keep throwing around alot of vague terms, slightly hinting at OU type situations, but you skirt around it, much like "smack" does... It bugs the ever living hell out of me - fyi.

[richard_lyew]

I have no trouble keeping my HHO electrolyzer temp under 120 F with no cooler and a very small reservoir. but like you say im not producing 20 plus LPM




Your statements sound like you are ONLY using HHO with no gasoline at all at low RPM. Am i understanding you correctly???

its not no gasoline, its little gasoline.

[cabrera]

Andy! where is that picture from?
did I miss something?


Glen

Glen
That is a screen capture from RDL's You tube site. Interesting setup. It looks solid. Of course I'm interested in the meat & potatoes.
BTW
I saw this cooler for $20 at Autozone. I think this and a few fans will keep me cool since I will be using a 1 GPM pump on my cell.
http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/cwa/911009/image/8/

[Philldpapill]

Wow, Andy! $20??? That's a pretty good deal! How's the construction? Sturdy? It's not Aluminum, is it? I think KOH will eat it away, if it is... Let us know how it works out!

[richard_lyew]

I know you set me up for it, but sorry richard........ You're wrong. LOL

Here's why: when water is at a higher temperature, the molecules are jumping around, banging into each other - overall, there is more movement and electron "noise". This added energy actually HELPS to overcome the bandgap energy required for the electrons jump from the plate, onto the H+ ions, or at the other end, and electron to jump off of an OH- ion. The result: the threshold voltage potential for electrolysis to begin is lowered. The equation for "excess voltage", is basically, "votlage supplied - Electrolysis threshold votlage". So, if the supply voltage is the same, but the threshold votlage is lower, then the excess voltage is higher. If the cell looks like a resistor to the voltage/current, then it reduces to basic Ohm's Law: V = I*R, or I = V/R. If the resistance is the same, but the threshold is higher, then the current is higher.

That explains why the current increases when the cell temperature goes up. For more information, research "thermolysis". It's basically high temperature electrolysis - VERY efficient when using waste heat.

yarn yarn, i didnt ask about voltage did i? i asked about amperage. and yes it gets higher. remember amperage is the name of the game. AMPs = HHO keep that in mind, this is why i have a buffer of AMPs that you said make no difference. also when voltage is dropped what raises?

[richard_lyew]

Yardy! wha gwan me breda?


Glen

bouy mi dea ya a guan si wea mi can add to dem people ya thing, mi dea fara dan dem thou. mi a gu si if mi can bring up some a dem yu zeet.

[cabrera]

Wow, Andy! $20??? That's a pretty good deal! How's the construction? Sturdy? It's not Aluminum, is it? I think KOH will eat it away, if it is... Let us know how it works out!

I'm going to check it out in the morning. The A/Z website doesn't give the construction material.
I hope it's not made of aluminum. KOH would eat it alive.

Aluminum is extremely reactive, it is the most common metal added to aeronautical fuel. It reacts with water. if it did not grow an oxide film that blocks off the surface and stops the reaction. Aluminum oxides are soluble in basic water solutions, so KOH enables the reaction to go continuously until the unit dissolved.

[richard_lyew]

RDL

I like that cell, Can you walk me through it.
Does the Subaru have a MAF or Map & are you adjusting the air flow?
Do you have similar emissions requirements? (O2 sensors, Catalytic converter etc.)

http://72.35.72.219/~library/26171/stuff/rdl.jpg

this was a simple cell when i was thinking in the box, all the new stuff are not on the net as yet. but with that cell i could bring the amperage up to 300AMPs easy with 3x100AMP relay going to 3 sets of cells inside but i couldn't keep it cool without cooling the mixture and that generator only had 1 big port for both in and out, that was old i wouldn't want you building that and wasting time. i will put out a diagram soon then before anybody builds it, we can have a discussion on it.

[Philldpapill]

Well, richard, you DID ask about voltage... Not directly, but when you are asking about current, you are asking about voltage as well. If you don't understand why the current increases from THAT explaination, then you need to read up on basic electrical theory. If you need to read up on it, I seriously doubt you know all the stuff you claim.

WHAT THE HELL DO YOU MEAN BY A BUFFER OF AMPS?????? Current supply? Charge? AND NO!!!! Stop spreading misinformation damn it! "AMPs = HHO" is false damn it! Earlier, you just accussed ME of making people think in simple terms... "Number of electrons moving from metal to water ions = HHO". That is VERY different than current or "AMPs"(it's not a damn acronym, stop saying AMPs).

[cabrera]

i will put out a diagram soon then before anybody builds it, we can have a discussion on it.

Cool!
RDL you bring a lot of interesting points to the table. I think you stir up some neurons on the forum and will get others experimenting & testing.

[richard_lyew]

Glen
That is a screen capture from RDL's You tube site. Interesting setup. It looks solid. Of course I'm interested in the meat & potatoes.
BTW
I saw this cooler for $20 at Autozone. I think this and a few fans will keep me cool since I will be using a 1 GPM pump on my cell.
http://contentinfo.autozone.com/znetcs/product-info/en/US/cwa/911009/image/8/

yes this is perfect but you dont need to move the mixture so fast, if anything put a pulse on your pump. but yea start cooling your mixture and share the results with the forum please.

[biggy boy]

bouy mi dea ya a guan si wea mi can add to dem people ya thing, mi dea fara dan dem thou. mi a gu si if mi can bring up some a dem yu zeet.

:)

Sorry fi mawga dog, mawga dog wi tun round bite you (phil)

[richard_lyew]

I'm going to check it out in the morning. The A/Z website doesn't give the construction material.
I hope it's not made of aluminum. KOH would eat it alive.

Aluminum is extremely reactive, it is the most common metal added to aeronautical fuel. It reacts with water. if it did not grow an oxide film that blocks off the surface and stops the reaction. Aluminum oxides are soluble in basic water solutions, so KOH enables the reaction to go continuously until the unit dissolved.

try to get one where the part touching the mixture is brass, i dont think you will find a stainless 1 easy, what you can do if its aluminum, replace the piping with stainless steel or brass piping. the fins can stay as aluminum.

[richard_lyew]

Well, richard, you DID ask about voltage... Not directly, but when you are asking about current, you are asking about voltage as well. If you don't understand why the current increases from THAT explaination, then you need to read up on basic electrical theory. If you need to read up on it, I seriously doubt you know all the stuff you claim.

WHAT THE HELL DO YOU MEAN BY A BUFFER OF AMPS?????? Current supply? Charge? AND NO!!!! Stop spreading misinformation damn it! "AMPs = HHO" is false damn it! Earlier, you just accussed ME of making people think in simple terms... "Number of electrons moving from metal to water ions = HHO". That is VERY different than current or "AMPs"(it's not a damn acronym, stop saying AMPs).

LOL i told you that the amps raise and all you did was tell me that yes they raise and explained why. i know this already man. and yes on to buffer now, if you have 1 battery that is 12VDC with 100AMPs and you get 6 more like it and connect them parallel, how much amps would you have in total at the same 12VDC?

[richard_lyew]

Cool!
RDL you bring a lot of interesting points to the table. I think you stir up some neurons on the forum and will get others experimenting & testing.

i will share all i can if people is will to test and prove them, the cooling is easy so we will start with that first, then move on to storage,solar,buffering, flow control, tuning AFC ect....

[richard_lyew]

:)

Sorry fi mawga dog, mawga dog wi tun round bite you (phil)

mi na put him pan practice ya yute cause nuff ada people dea ya wea interested ina di infamation su mi na mek 1 bad apple spoil di bunch. nuff ada people dea ya wea willing fi try a thing yu zimi.

[Philldpapill]

I'm done with this thread. I didn't want to resort to name calling or psychoBS, but richard, you're an idiot, but as a person, I kind of pity you.

There are some people that roam the internet as "trolls" - a person that starts crap with people just to bully them. Somehow they get satisfaction of making other people's lives hell, because their life is already hell.

On the other end, there are people who get on here, and try to create a sense of authority and insightfulness around them. Heck, some people do this in real life - they are called know it all's, but in reality, they know little. That's why they overcompensate, by trying to sound like they know what the hell they are talking about.

From your last few posts, I can tell you are the latter, richard. As someone who busted their ass for years, with many nights of pulling my hair out until I understand the theories in EM, I take offense to you trying to persuade people that you know a G-D thing. You talk about this stuff as if you are some expert on the subject, but to anyone who DOES know anything, about anything, it's obvious you don't even understand even the basics. In other words, I've found your motive for your fraud. It's not monetary based - I think it's self-esteem based. Still, it's no reason to spread misinformation to other people. Find another way to feel better about yourself and quit with the lies. Some people on here may not believe it, but they will give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm not going to. I feel for you as a person, but I also hate seeing people being led down a road of idiocy, just so you can feel like people respect you for your knowledge.

I'm done with this thread. Sorry to be a jerk, but I've had it with the constant BS in your posts.

[biggy boy]

night, likkle mo

Looking forward to hearing more info later.

[Tundra4x4]

I understand what you are saying richard. I have been doing this hho thing for years now and have taken many of classes in college to understand how HHo works. I have already kinda of thought about you are talking about with buffering and store hho for later time, and cooling it more, and having pumps, but its all when i have money. I have already gotten my V8 tundra to a 110% increase in mpg, and I know for a fact i can get more than that. I have a simple system and there is so much you can do to my truck to get more than that easily.

Basically, if you are right about that you are saying, I mean i know you can get a car from 35 mpg to 100 with no problem, then it will be all for the better. All that you have talked about will all help gain mpg. What people don't know is that the main reason we aren't getting the gain we want is because of the ECU. I have a buddy that works for a vehicle manufacture and he told me that this is true, a car is made for gasoline only. And before someone gets on my case about that, the reason that car manufacture dont have hho systems in them is because its maintenance. I mean tthink about it, people hardly if at all change their oil, let a lone maintain a hho system.

but this whole despite, is because there are people that have been working hard on their systems and they havent figured out how to get those gains, and that leads to jealously. Just because your system doesnt work that good doesnt mean someone else doesnt have one better than yours. I bet my 110% increase is better than most on here, it doesnt mean im wrong. I have money to who ever wants to prove me wrong. what people dont understand is the amount of power hydrogen produces when burnt.

So richard if what you say is right then KODOS to you and I am all ears to what you have to say, just dont let other people that havent figured it out yet that dont want to believe it rain on your picnic.

I know i can get my truck to 65 mpg, its just time, trial and error, and research. I have ideas but i am in the process of trying them out first.

[richard_lyew]

I'm done with this thread. I didn't want to resort to name calling or psychoBS, but richard, you're an idiot, but as a person, I kind of pity you.

There are some people that roam the internet as "trolls" - a person that starts crap with people just to bully them. Somehow they get satisfaction of making other people's lives hell, because their life is already hell.

On the other end, there are people who get on here, and try to create a sense of authority and insightfulness around them. Heck, some people do this in real life - they are called know it all's, but in reality, they know little. That's why they overcompensate, by trying to sound like they know what the hell they are talking about.

From your last few posts, I can tell you are the latter, richard. As someone who busted their ass for years, with many nights of pulling my hair out until I understand the theories in EM, I take offense to you trying to persuade people that you know a G-D thing. You talk about this stuff as if you are some expert on the subject, but to anyone who DOES know anything, about anything, it's obvious you don't even understand even the basics. In other words, I've found your motive for your fraud. It's not monetary based - I think it's self-esteem based. Still, it's no reason to spread misinformation to other people. Find another way to feel better about yourself and quit with the lies. Some people on here may not believe it, but they will give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm not going to. I feel for you as a person, but I also hate seeing people being led down a road of idiocy, just so you can feel like people respect you for your knowledge.

I'm done with this thread. Sorry to be a jerk, but I've had it with the constant BS in your posts.

alright phill but most of what you are so upset about comes from you, i said the amperage raises and you agree and explained why then i moved on to another question. the reason why i ask you so much question is because you are super educated and can shed light on what im saying, most of what you have agreed with. and i dont think anybody was bullying anybody, you might tell people that they are idiots ect.. but other than that i think everybody is alright. oh yea i just remember this to add about timing. does anybody have problem with timing on any VVT engine? and im doing the drawings right now, i hope i can post them tonight

[richard_lyew]

I understand what you are saying richard. I have been doing this hho thing for years now and have taken many of classes in college to understand how HHo works. I have already kinda of thought about you are talking about with buffering and store hho for later time, and cooling it more, and having pumps, but its all when i have money. I have already gotten my V8 tundra to a 110% increase in mpg, and I know for a fact i can get more than that. I have a simple system and there is so much you can do to my truck to get more than that easily.

Basically, if you are right about that you are saying, I mean i know you can get a car from 35 mpg to 100 with no problem, then it will be all for the better. All that you have talked about will all help gain mpg. What people don't know is that the main reason we aren't getting the gain we want is because of the ECU. I have a buddy that works for a vehicle manufacture and he told me that this is true, a car is made for gasoline only. And before someone gets on my case about that, the reason that car manufacture dont have hho systems in them is because its maintenance. I mean tthink about it, people hardly if at all change their oil, let a lone maintain a hho system.

but this whole despite, is because there are people that have been working hard on their systems and they havent figured out how to get those gains, and that leads to jealously. Just because your system doesnt work that good doesnt mean someone else doesnt have one better than yours. I bet my 110% increase is better than most on here, it doesnt mean im wrong. I have money to who ever wants to prove me wrong. what people dont understand is the amount of power hydrogen produces when burnt.

So richard if what you say is right then KODOS to you and I am all ears to what you have to say, just dont let other people that havent figured it out yet that dont want to believe it rain on your picnic.

I know i can get my truck to 65 mpg, its just time, trial and error, and research. I have ideas but i am in the process of trying them out first.

yes sir, buffering the word phill is all mad about and cant understand and he is so super educated, but i mean its whatever to me really, the word is here i hope dont fall on all deaf ears. but yea think about this while you here. how much people do you know that drive to work and park their car in the sun all day? now think of a system that uses that sun time to make and store HHO then if and when the desired amount of HHO is made and stored, the same system switches power from the HHO generator and starts to charge batteries, and when it cant charge them no more it switches off. so in the evening when you get off work you have more than enough HHO to take you home and while driving home again you are making HHO and adding to your buffer that you are currently running off. is that impossible? i asked phill the same thing. anyways what im saying is if you have a big enough buffer and the sun and driving helps to recharge it then the buffer might never run out.

[Philldpapill]

GOD DAMN YOU!!!!

I just flippin said a couple pages ago! Even if you used top of the line Solar panels on 100% of your car, you wouldn't be able to make enough HHO in one day to drive your car home 20 miles!!! Again, with the damn bull**** spewing from your keyboard. STOP IT you POS! You're telling people stuff that are lies!

You don't get buffering at all... If your input energy is less than your output energy, you will ALWAYS run out of energy stored in your battery, no matter how big your battery is you dumb****.

Let's do the F'ing math. Let's say you have 10 square meters on your car, and the cells cover every bit of it in full sun. Even if your cells are 30% efficient, that is ONLY 3KW of power! Hell, let's even assume the sun out for a solid 12 full sunlight hours a day... That's 36KWh, or the equivalent of 48HP hours. That's the amount of energy it would take to drive 60MPH for almost an hour...

Now let's do a real measurement. Your cells are probably about 15% efficient(that's pretty good actually) in full sun, but on average, the sun's average output(due to angle of the sun going over the sky), will decrease your efficiency by about 40%. Now the efficiency is down to 9%, or 90W per sq. meter of solar cells. You can't cover your whole care, but we can assume the roof, and hood - maybe 6 sq. meters. Now, 12 hours of good sunlight, 90W per sq. meter, 6 sq. meters... That comes out to about 8.7hp hours... Your car probably takes around 40hp to go down the highway, so that means the whole day of charging(assuming 100% efficient HHO production).... You would have about 13 minutes of drive time...

That's still a liberal estimate of how much energy you would capture.

God, I'm ****ed if you can't tell.

[richard_lyew]

GOD DAMN YOU!!!!

I just flippin said a couple pages ago! Even if you used top of the line Solar panels on 100% of your car, you wouldn't be able to make enough HHO in one day to drive your car home 20 miles!!! Again, with the damn bull**** spewing from your keyboard. STOP IT you POS! You're telling people stuff that are lies!

You don't get buffering at all... If your input energy is less than your output energy, you will ALWAYS run out of energy stored in your battery, no matter how big your battery is you dumb****.

Let's do the F'ing math. Let's say you have 10 square meters on your car, and the cells cover every bit of it in full sun. Even if your cells are 30% efficient, that is ONLY 3KW of power! Hell, let's even assume the sun out for a solid 12 full sunlight hours a day... That's 36KWh, or the equivalent of 48HP hours. That's the amount of energy it would take to drive 60MPH for almost an hour...

Now let's do a real measurement. Your cells are probably about 15% efficient(that's pretty good actually) in full sun, but on average, the sun's average output(due to angle of the sun going over the sky), will decrease your efficiency by about 40%. Now the efficiency is down to 9%, or 90W per sq. meter of solar cells. You can't cover your whole care, but we can assume the roof, and hood - maybe 6 sq. meters. Now, 12 hours of good sunlight, 90W per sq. meter, 6 sq. meters... That comes out to about 8.7hp hours... Your car probably takes around 40hp to go down the highway, so that means the whole day of charging(assuming 100% efficient HHO production).... You would have about 13 minutes of drive time...

That's still a liberal estimate of how much energy you would capture.

God, I'm ****ed if you can't tell.

wow so explosive, take it easy phill, no need to bust a blood vessel LOL, ok phill so you are saying that i then would have a buffer of 13 minutes of driving on no gasoline? what if i was to add 1 gallon of gasoline to that, how far would that take me? also what if while im driving im making say 20LPM adding to the existing 13min buffer and 1 gallon of gasoline, how far would that take me, just give me a rough answer in mileage. and phill please dont leave the forum because now we are getting somewhere on the whole buffering concept which ive been using.

[richard_lyew]

my current generator


http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8027/topviewwithoutcover.th.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/topviewwithoutcover.jpg/)

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/723/topviewwithcover.th.jpg (http://img151.imageshack.us/i/topviewwithcover.jpg/)

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4375/sideview.th.jpg (http://img179.imageshack.us/i/sideview.jpg/)

i will post my current setup and all the parts and what they do.

[Philldpapill]

You're damn right I'm explosive. That last post of yours was just lunacy. But don't you already use solar on your car with great results...?

I don't know... 13 minutes of drive time @ 60MPH is 13 miles. If your car gets 30MPG without any HHO, and 40MPG with HHO(which is a VERY good boost...), that's 53MPG. Nice, but that's not a continuous 53MPG... That's for 53 Miles, assuming you burn through the gallon of gas, then start burning pure HHO. BTW, storing HHO is natural selection in action... especially in the amount you are talking about. A stick of dynamite under your seat would be a little safer - that isn't set off as easily.

The idea could help your fuel efficieny, but as an engineer, you have to think practically. At this point in technology, putting highly efficient solar panels on your car just to soak up sun isn't just impractical, but stupid... Road debris will take them out in no time, offsetting any fuel gains with replacement costs.

Why not just put some solar cells up on your house, produce HYDROGEN, compress it, and fill up your car at home? There's no sense in hauling solar cells around on your car, just waiting for them to get damaged.

[richard_lyew]

I understand what you are saying richard. I have been doing this hho thing for years now and have taken many of classes in college to understand how HHo works. I have already kinda of thought about you are talking about with buffering and store hho for later time, and cooling it more, and having pumps, but its all when i have money. I have already gotten my V8 tundra to a 110% increase in mpg, and I know for a fact i can get more than that. I have a simple system and there is so much you can do to my truck to get more than that easily.

Basically, if you are right about that you are saying, I mean i know you can get a car from 35 mpg to 100 with no problem, then it will be all for the better. All that you have talked about will all help gain mpg. What people don't know is that the main reason we aren't getting the gain we want is because of the ECU. I have a buddy that works for a vehicle manufacture and he told me that this is true, a car is made for gasoline only. And before someone gets on my case about that, the reason that car manufacture dont have hho systems in them is because its maintenance. I mean tthink about it, people hardly if at all change their oil, let a lone maintain a hho system.

but this whole despite, is because there are people that have been working hard on their systems and they havent figured out how to get those gains, and that leads to jealously. Just because your system doesnt work that good doesnt mean someone else doesnt have one better than yours. I bet my 110% increase is better than most on here, it doesnt mean im wrong. I have money to who ever wants to prove me wrong. what people dont understand is the amount of power hydrogen produces when burnt.

So richard if what you say is right then KODOS to you and I am all ears to what you have to say, just dont let other people that havent figured it out yet that dont want to believe it rain on your picnic.

I know i can get my truck to 65 mpg, its just time, trial and error, and research. I have ideas but i am in the process of trying them out first.

yep but if you have full control over the ECU like say with a AFC of some sort then the ECU no longer controls the show, you do, and you dont need alot of pumps just 1, its all about where you place it and also how you place the units of your system, i will make a post on the placing of units of your system and why it is important. and yea i bring all the main points to the table and now its just a matter of time before people complete discussing them and put them in action, but we are getting there. im glad phill is here to put the facts to what im saying and everybody knows phill as the top brain of the forum so if what he says is possible then it might well be.

[Philldpapill]

I'm not the top brain on here. There are alot of guys that know their stuff. My field just has to do with electricity. My knowledge of thermodynamics is a "basic" understanding, and for this sort of thing, it's good enough. Just put some equations into what you are doing, so that you can verify your results. If your results are out in left field, you should go back and double check. Very few times in history do erroneous results turn out to be anything other than erroneous...

[richard_lyew]

You're damn right I'm explosive. That last post of yours was just lunacy. But don't you already use solar on your car with great results...?

I don't know... 13 minutes of drive time @ 60MPH is 13 miles. If your car gets 30MPG without any HHO, and 40MPG with HHO(which is a VERY good boost...), that's 53MPG. Nice, but that's not a continuous 53MPG... That's for 53 Miles, assuming you burn through the gallon of gas, then start burning pure HHO. BTW, storing HHO is natural selection in action... especially in the amount you are talking about. A stick of dynamite under your seat would be a little safer - that isn't set off as easily.

The idea could help your fuel efficieny, but as an engineer, you have to think practically. At this point in technology, putting highly efficient solar panels on your car just to soak up sun isn't just impractical, but stupid... Road debris will take them out in no time, offsetting any fuel gains with replacement costs.

Why not just put some solar cells up on your house, produce HYDROGEN, compress it, and fill up your car at home? There's no sense in hauling solar cells around on your car, just waiting for them to get damaged.


now hold on phill just wait a sec please take time with me on this now because you are almost there, you are saying i can get about 53MPG on the buffer that i got from the sun with 1 gallon of gasoline, great but you didnt mention the additional 20LPM that i would be making while driving. the next thing you mentioned is the safety of storing the HHO produced, what if i was to store it the same way the world been storing gasoline? the gas tank is there but it doesn't blow up every 10 years does it? hell ive known alot of people that their gas tank has never blown up their whole life including myself, why? safety. and isn't a full tank of gas just like a stick of dynamite or worst? but yet still people full her up everyday. now on to looks and the solar panels. have you ever seen those cars with all sunroof? what if you were to mount your solar panels inside under that glass? nobody could tell from the outside and inside would still have enough headroom, do you think that would be practical?. and your other point is a very good one too i might add, because i do have additional solar panels at home for when im there to help faster production and charging of the batteries, which brings me back to the additional batteries, please im asking you to confirm this for the forum. if i have 6 12VDC 100AMP batteries connected in parallel, how much volts and how much amps would i have in total?

[richard_lyew]

I'm not the top brain on here. There are alot of guys that know their stuff. My field just has to do with electricity. My knowledge of thermodynamics is a "basic" understanding, and for this sort of thing, it's good enough. Just put some equations into what you are doing, so that you can verify your results. If your results are out in left field, you should go back and double check. Very few times in history do erroneous results turn out to be anything other than erroneous...

i have done my research sir and i spend alot of time on my system taking it from nothing much to unbelievable but you are getting there with every post. i just want you to verify for yourself because i know already, now its your turn and everybody else who are willing to push the envelope. also i want you to answer another very important question after you answer the question about the batteries.

[cabrera]

GOD DAMN YOU!!!!
There is no call for that Philldpapill.
RDL has at no time been derrogatory or disrespectful to you.

Bad Form! http://sporttracclub.21.forumer.com/images/smiles/sporttracclub/nono.gif

Keep it professional.

[biggy boy]

Richard

Due to the initial high cost of the solar panels, could one not use a 120 volt

plug in charger to charge the batteries while at work and at night at home?

That is what I was planing. I have 4 large 12 voltage batteries meant for large diesel generators. I was planning on putting them in the back of my pickup truck along with the HHO generator. Run the gen off the additional batteries.
Charge them at work and at home at night.

The four batteries would not be connected to the trucks alternator.

An on-board charger would be under $80.00

[IM2L844]

Yes! You can do exactly that and you will see an increase in MPG with the load disconnected from your alternator. I've done it

[biggy boy]

Yes! You can do exactly that and you will see an increase in MPG with the load disconnected from your alternator. I've done it

Yes I too have tried that disconnected the alternator signal and just ran the truck off the battery. no alternator recharging the battery.
Best done with a deep cycle battery thou!!

[oicu812]

now hold on phill just wait a sec please take time with me on this now because you are almost there, you are saying i can get about 53MPG on the buffer that i got from the sun with 1 gallon of gasoline, great but you didnt mention the additional 20LPM that i would be making while driving. the next thing you mentioned is the safety of storing the HHO produced, what if i was to store it the same way the world been storing gasoline? the gas tank is there but it doesn't blow up every 10 years does it? hell ive known alot of people that their gas tank has never blown up their whole life including myself, why? safety. and isn't a full tank of gas just like a stick of dynamite or worst? but yet still people full her up everyday. now on to looks and the solar panels. have you ever seen those cars with all sunroof? what if you were to mount your solar panels inside under that glass? nobody could tell from the outside and inside would still have enough headroom, do you think that would be practical?. and your other point is a very good one too i might add, because i do have additional solar panels at home for when im there to help faster production and charging of the batteries, which brings me back to the additional batteries, please im asking you to confirm this for the forum. if i have 6 12VDC 100AMP batteries connected in parallel, how much volts and how much amps would i have in total?
6 12 volt 100 amp batteries connected in parallel would give you 12 volts @ 600 amps

[Helz_McFugly]

better get a heavy duty battery charger to charge 4 big batteries. I dont think the $80 one will do it. you can probably get a 10 to 15 amp charger for $80. but for $250 you might find a 80 amp which would charge them over ngiht or while at work. but its gunna put a little dent in your elct. bill at home. unless youre at work or your neighbors arent home :p

[Roland Jacques]

Richard

Lets get to the meat of the issue.

You have what could be some very cool things that you can contribute to the HHO community. But some of what your speaking of is not as important. The manor in which you create your HHO does not seem that very ground breaking. I assume that you dont know how efficient you electrolyzer is. If I'm wrong please tell us what your eletroyzer's MMW is?

And the solar panel thing, not important ether. (It does stand out as a big red flag for me, and seems a bit silly.)

The temperature thing is not ground breaking ether, controlling your temp is easy enough. But it would be good if you told us what your goal temperature is?




What you seem to have done that could be ground breaking. Is possibly Safely store HHO. It is hard for me to grasp that this can even be done, but your gasoline tank comprasion, does make a good point. If you could provide more some details on how you do this, links, photos, equipment... :D

Probably even more importantly how you regulate your HHO from the storage tank. How much (LPM) you feed to your engine at what RPM would be a very important detail. Details on the equipment you use to do this would also be helpful. :D:D

PS. I really liked your video!!

[biggy boy]

Ya getting power at work, no problem. I like the neighbour idea LOL.

80 amps x 12 volts = 960 watts plus losses....... so maybe 1100 watts on the 120 volt side.

so about a 1.1 kilo watt hour x the cost per kwh. umm 8 cents per kwh

So somewhere roughly 8.8 cents maybe up to 12 cents an hour?


Glen

[Roland Jacques]

Ya getting power at work, no problem. I like the neighbour idea LOL.

80 amps x 12 volts = 960 watts plus losses....... so maybe 1100 watts on the 120 volt side.

so about a 1.1 kilo watt hour x the cost per kwh. umm 8 cents per kwh

So somewhere roughly 8.8 cents maybe up to 12 cents an hour?


Glen
This charging batteries stuff is waaaaaaaaaaay off topic. it just muddying the waters. new thread time. linky http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=5423

[biggy boy]

This charging batteries stuff is waaaaaaaaaaay off topic. it just muddying the waters. new thread time. linky http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=5423

That thread has already been poisoned:p

Glen

[Philldpapill]

Richard, you missed the point. Even if you DID use all your surface area on your car for solar cells, you would barely get enough energy to drive 13 miles a day. That may be enough for VERY short commutes, but it's impractical.

The idea about storing HHO in your gasoline tank, again, misses the point. You have all the reactants you need with HHO. With gasoline, you only have gasoline, and gasoline vapor - VERY LITTLE OXYGEN. That is why gasoline is safe. HHO is in the most potent form - a stochiometric mixture, asking to be ignited by the tiniest of sparks.

It seems that this thread is going more in the direction of using massive batteries now... If you are going to carry along massive batteries, why not just go electric all the way??? This is getting way too complicated to the point of defeating the purpose of using HHO at all... Oh, you are right, Helz... You are talking about a 600A continuous battery bank... I doubt even a 20A charger would be able to overcome the float voltage of the batteries!

(NOTE: Float voltage is related to the self discharge of a battery. Maintaining the battery terminals at the "float voltage" ensures that the self discharge rate is countered by the current flowing into the batteries.)

[Philldpapill]

Also, I'm sorry for the outburst. I should have just let it go... Sometimes, I may be a bit too outspoken when I see someone spreading misinformation.

Ironic - Joe Wilson got up and screamed "YOU LIE!" To Obama last night... Totally the wrong time/place to do that, and I guess mine was too. Sorry, guys.

[cabrera]

Also, I'm sorry for the outburst. I should have just let it go... Sometimes, I may be a bit too outspoken when I see someone spreading misinformation.

Ironic - Joe Wilson got up and screamed "YOU LIE!" To Obama last night... Totally the wrong time/place to do that, and I guess mine was too. Sorry, guys.

We still love ya Phill!

[richard_lyew]

There is no call for that Philldpapill.
RDL has at no time been derrogatory or disrespectful to you.

Bad Form! http://sporttracclub.21.forumer.com/images/smiles/sporttracclub/nono.gif

Keep it professional.


its all good man, thanks, phill will calm down in time, just watch this thread.

[richard_lyew]

Richard

Due to the initial high cost of the solar panels, could one not use a 120 volt

plug in charger to charge the batteries while at work and at night at home?

That is what I was planing. I have 4 large 12 voltage batteries meant for large diesel generators. I was planning on putting them in the back of my pickup truck along with the HHO generator. Run the gen off the additional batteries.
Charge them at work and at home at night.

The four batteries would not be connected to the trucks alternator.

An on-board charger would be under $80.00

yep you raised some good points but first remember that we are trying to cut cost on gas not spend gas money on electric bill. i also notices that you understand the whole more batteries thing that i was talking about, with the additional you have a power buffer or in your case it wont be connected to the alternator so it would just be more like storage insted of buffer. ok i have something i would like you to check out, try to find and alternator with greater AMP out put than your exciting alternator, with little to no additional drag on the belt. the alternator that came in my car was an 85AMP, i then found a company in china that sells high AMP alternators with little to no additional drag in the belt, so i bought a 13VDC@160AMP alternator from them. it is also possible to rewire your exciting alternator to get double the amperage, i found this out after i bought my 160AMP alternator LOL. but yea try to up your amps on your alternator with little to no drag that way you can connect more than 2 batteries to your car without stressing the alternator.


oh yea a quick tip for those who drive standard shift cars or whatever you drive, you should always gear down what coming to a stop because you can get your car's RPM up without using and fuel thous making HHO off slowing down. i sometimes go to visit my grandpa way up in the mountains sometimes and when coming off that long hill i switch my transmission to 2 (second) and let it slows the car by compression and the RPM is always high like say 3000 to 4000 for sometimes 20mins. i make alot of HHO doing that.

[richard_lyew]

Yes! You can do exactly that and you will see an increase in MPG with the load disconnected from your alternator. I've done it


yea but come on, you are just using your house power to run your car, we must try as much to keep things as free as possible.

[richard_lyew]

6 12 volt 100 amp batteries connected in parallel would give you 12 volts @ 600 amps

thanks but i really wanted phill to answered than one because he said me adding extra batteries didn't make any difference so i was just about to ask him if 100AMPS of making HHO is the same of 600AMPS making HHO, the answer is NO phill the batteries does give you more power if you connect then in parallel like im doing, thous giving you a longer run time which means it wouldn't stress your car for power. and also phill that's what i ment when i said AMPS = HHO because the more AMPS you have the more HHO you can make. if you have a good buffer of AMPS then you can make alot of HHO. the solar panels was worth it plus i didn't buy them at full price.

[richard_lyew]

better get a heavy duty battery charger to charge 4 big batteries. I dont think the $80 one will do it. you can probably get a 10 to 15 amp charger for $80. but for $250 you might find a 80 amp which would charge them over ngiht or while at work. but its gunna put a little dent in your elct. bill at home. unless youre at work or your neighbors arent home :p


that's what i was saying. you would still be spending and it would still be going to oil companies.

[richard_lyew]

Richard

Lets get to the meat of the issue.

You have what could be some very cool things that you can contribute to the HHO community. But some of what your speaking of is not as important. The manor in which you create your HHO does not seem that very ground breaking. I assume that you dont know how efficient you electrolyzer is. If I'm wrong please tell us what your eletroyzer's MMW is?

And the solar panel thing, not important ether. (It does stand out as a big red flag for me, and seems a bit silly.)

The temperature thing is not ground breaking ether, controlling your temp is easy enough. But it would be good if you told us what your goal temperature is?




What you seem to have done that could be ground breaking. Is possibly Safely store HHO. It is hard for me to grasp that this can even be done, but your gasoline tank comprasion, does make a good point. If you could provide more some details on how you do this, links, photos, equipment... :D

Probably even more importantly how you regulate your HHO from the storage tank. How much (LPM) you feed to your engine at what RPM would be a very important detail. Details on the equipment you use to do this would also be helpful. :D:D

PS. I really liked your video!! about 10 MMW at start up and about 15MMW after 10 mins. the panels are not bad, free charging your battery or help make and store HHO free, trust me that is not bad.

goal temp is below 100c.

im falling asleep, i will cont post in the afternoon.

sorry but im very tired.

[Roland Jacques]

the panels are not bad, free charging your battery or help make and store HHO free, trust me that is not bad.
sorry but im very tired.

It is very clear that solar is a good thing, From one perceptive.

1. Panels have been done before, many times. So it is not a big deal.
I have used solar panels on my work truck ...

2. Solar panels alone could dominate this thread for days. And in reality it does not mean much when compared to what you have accomplished.
In the past the folks that make these super High MPG claims dont stick around, they may get **** off at folks or ... In any case they typically dont answer many questions, so spending time on the easy stuff is time wasted because they rarely ever get to the core reason behind the results. That said you have already demonstrated your ability not to react to the flames and you have responded to more question than most. So that alone impresses me :)


I look forward to you reply to the other questions.

[IM2L844]

yea but come on, you are just using your house power to run your car, we must try as much to keep things as free as possible.

No. For the most part, I use a 50 watt solar panel since my car usually sits parked in the direct sunlight for about 10 hours a day during the week and more on the weekends, but nevertheless take a look at this video where Dustin (the one and only Smack) takes the time to measure exactly how much household power it takes for his EV assist experiments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnLMOGvKyxU

[M34me]

WOW, Can't say as I have ever seen a thread in any forum get this much attention is such a short amount of time.

I'll direct this to Richard.

To clarify, I never went past High School, other than the Navy. (Which I kind of regret, but I digress) I build both electrical and mechanical stuff for a living, so from that I have a fair amount of knowledge and I am very mechanically inclined.

I have asked many questions in the past regarding HHO that have never been answered. Some have tried, but I found flaws in their reasoning.
I do believe that there are gains to be had with HHO that have yet to be realized. But I consider myself a skeptic, albeit a optimistic/inquisitive skeptic.


You seem to have trouble with the fact that a lot of people aren't taking you seriously. I think you need to consider some things when it comes to that issue. The claims you are making are huge. It's like telling us you flew to the moon in a home built rocket and you did it undetected by the government/military. While technically possible, it is obviously quite hard to believe.

I have scrolled through the 12 pages of posts, kind of lightly scanning the information and specifically looking for pictures or videos of your system. I see none. (unless I missed them) You need to at very least do this if you want to be taken seriously.

Another problem I have is your language skills. I have a hard time taking people seriously when their language skills are so poor. If this is due to the fact that you are an immigrant from a non-english speaking country, then I understand. But if you were born in America and taught in American schools, or english speaking schools, then you need to learn better sentence structure and use spell check. Capitalizing sentences and proof reading and such goes a long way toward credibility.

I think your thoughts and insight are extremely valuable, but your claims are very hard to believe. Video and picture content would go a long way. Frankly this whole discussion is almost worthless without that content.

Please don't think I am trying to slam you in any way. Please consider it to be constructive criticism.

[cabrera]

Another problem I have is your language skills. I have a hard time taking people seriously when their language skills are so poor. If this is due to the fact that you are an immigrant from a non-english speaking country, then I understand.

RDL is in Jamaica (the country not Queens NY) so in consideration, his communication skills are good. As you, I try to overlook this myself. I have met computer GENIUSES from India who where very difficult to understand but their skills & code were incredible.

This for me is a forum of thought & insight, and although some claims appear outlandish, the ideas behind them may require attention.
I'm glad that you are not one of those people that demand tests, dynos, etc., but you are right disclosure so that others may follow in your footsteps goes a long way toward credibility.

[biggy boy]

No. For the most part, I use a 50 watt solar panel since my car usually sits parked in the direct sunlight for about 10 hours a day during the week and more on the weekends, but nevertheless take a look at this video where Dustin (the one and only Smack) takes the time to measure exactly how much household power it takes for his EV assist experiments:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnLMOGvKyxU


Smack is the man!!!

[Buster]

For what it's worth, having read between the lines of what Richard is saying, I think he's got some valid points in his description of his design, some which I know from experience have very interesting effects. I'm not going to say that I believe all the claims, but I have no doubt he may well have got them. I'm just saying don't dismiss it as he has something to contribute.
I find nothing in his statements which make me suspicious.
Some have complained that he should make it all clear and disclose everything. I think Richard did mention that he's trying to get it patented(for what it's worth). I think it's understandable that he wants to disclose it how he wants. How much credit for his work would he get if he just posted all the details. I bet some lowlife would be on the TV claiming that he'd put it all together within a week. Those who do the real work never get the credit till after they're dead usually. The glory too often goes to thieves and opportunists seekers. (Think Tesla 'v' JP Morgan)
Give him a break and learn what you can from what he is willing to offer.
There are far, far greater claims by eminent inventors of what is actually possible!!
It will either work or it won't, so what's the problem anyway?
Free your mind.....Neo

[redrat100]

about 10 MMW at start up and about 15MMW after 10 mins.

Just read through this entire post and have some questions, comments and observations Richard.

1. 150 mpg is astounding (post 1). Assuming that your 2.0 Subaru gets around 30 mpg stock, that is a 400% increase. Wow! At best others are seeing between 20% and 40%. Personally, I have never seen more than 3.5% mileage increase on my 2.0. Given this I hope you can understand the skepticism you are getting here. So, how are you calculating your increase? You should be using your miles driven between fill-ups, not what the computer tells you.

2. I am very interested in an AFC. Others have asked you about it but Helz took the initiative to find one in post 11. I like something that directly influence the cars ECU. It seems more capable that an efie or map/maf tweaker. Could you post the model AFC you are using?

3. Your MMW seems off a bit. I'm assuming that you are using 13.8 vdc from your batteries, on post 6 you said you were using 200a, on post 88 you said 20 liters per minute HHO. So, 20,000 ml per minute / 2760 watts = 7.25 ml per watt per minute. Or, 7.25 MMW. Which is very good! But it is not 10 or 15 unless I misread your posts somewhere.

4. I understand why you want to keep the fluid cool. I even bought a trans cooler like in post 76 but never installed it because it is aluminum. I use NaOh as a electrolyte which is very reactive with aluminum, so is KOh. What are you using as an electrolyte? And, where did you find a brass or stainless steel cooler? Please post the manufacturer.

5. Thank you for the cell diagrams you posted in 89. It looks like you are using a wet cell with two separate plate assemblies and alternating between them. Could you tell us the plate arrangement (+ - + - etc), the plate area (square inches), and what plate material you are using?

6. I have no problem with your extra batteries (amp buffer) or storing your HHO (buffer). You just want to stuff as much HHO into the engine as you can because you have discovered that it takes a lot more than just 1 or 2 lpm to make a difference on a 2.0 engine. At 10psi though I would not want to be anywhere near your car when the HHO auto-ignites though. This is why most of us are staying away from storing HHO.

The answers I and others are asking will not violate your patent application because there are only a few ways of doing electrolysis. And, since this technology has been around since the 1870's or so, there are plenty of other resources to find the same information. But, this is a forum where we are all trying to share information to make our lives a little less expensive, so please Richard, share here so we all can benefit from your research.

[Philldpapill]

Richard, I DID NOT say extra batteries don't matter, as far as peak power goes. What I DID say, is that it doesn't matter how many batteries you have when it comes to SUSTAINABILITY. If your power source that is charging them isn't greater than or equal to your load, your batteries WILL deplete... The larger the bank, the slower they deplete, but the LONGER it takes to recharge them. Batteries are ONLY temporary. Once they deplete, where are you going to get the power from to recharge them? The wall outlet? Your company that gives you a job and allows you to feed your family(@POS Glen...)?

The point is, batteries only act as a "buffer" for PEAK power demand. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you are making HHO, isn't this a CONSTANT POWER process(for the most part)? If that's the case, then your peak power is fairly constant, and your batteries do nothing for that.

BTW, Richard, just unveil the damn "magic machine" already... Don't lead these people on some sort of lame quest of self-realization about how to generate HHO. Just spill it, and stop milking it.

[Philldpapill]

ALSO, AMPS does NOT equal HHO. Amps is a unit of charge per time... CHARGE is what gives HHO. You probably don't see it, and probably won't see it... but there is a huge difference.

There are different ways of moving charges through the water, to form HHO. One, is Richards way - just dump a crap load of current through your cell, and see the magic bubbles come up. The other, is to put cells in SERIES in order to utilize the higher-than-needed voltage(12V). The total amount of charge being moved in each case is fairly equal, but one method produces far less power loss. This is why the -nnnn+ plate configurations are so popular. Each cell drops part of the 12V, resulting in a lower current density through each cell. CURRENT DENSITY is what gives produces the heat in a cell(sort of). Higher current density = more power loss, AND equals less HHO per unit energy.

But hey, if you want to keep using excessive 12V AND massive current densities, go ahead.

If anyone wants to discuss the relationship between voltage/current density/wasted heat, etc. etc., start a thread. I'll be happy to share some detailed info on the subject since this is a VERY misunderstood area of HHO...

[Roland Jacques]

I understand what you are saying richard. I have been doing this hho thing for years now and have taken many of classes in college to understand how HHo works. I have already kinda of thought about you are talking about with buffering and store hho for later time, and cooling it more, and having pumps, but its all when i have money. I have already gotten my V8 tundra to a 110% increase in mpg, and I know for a fact i can get more than that. I have a simple system and there is so much you can do to my truck to get more than that easily.

Basically, if you are right about that you are saying, I mean i know you can get a car from 35 mpg to 100 with no problem, then it will be all for the better. All that you have talked about will all help gain mpg. What people don't know is that the main reason we aren't getting the gain we want is because of the ECU. I have a buddy that works for a vehicle manufacture and he told me that this is true, a car is made for gasoline only. And before someone gets on my case about that, the reason that car manufacture dont have hho systems in them is because its maintenance. I mean tthink about it, people hardly if at all change their oil, let a lone maintain a hho system.

but this whole despite, is because there are people that have been working hard on their systems and they havent figured out how to get those gains, and that leads to jealously. Just because your system doesnt work that good doesnt mean someone else doesnt have one better than yours. I bet my 110% increase is better than most on here, it doesnt mean im wrong. I have money to who ever wants to prove me wrong. what people dont understand is the amount of power hydrogen produces when burnt.

So richard if what you say is right then KODOS to you and I am all ears to what you have to say, just dont let other people that havent figured it out yet that dont want to believe it rain on your picnic.

I know i can get my truck to 65 mpg, its just time, trial and error, and research. I have ideas but i am in the process of trying them out first.

Tundra4x4 YOU SUCK!!!!

I just had to say that. Ether you are a liar or you are just a taker. Ether way YOU SUCK!!!

You spent a few months here just asking questions... Then you put your cell together, installed it, got great results, and DID NOT SHARE any of your results!!!! :mad:

OK i feel better now;)

[Helz_McFugly]

Tundra4X4, if you dont share via youtube and instructions. i will find where you sleep adn youll wake up next to a horse head, lol/ :cool:
Im only half doing this for saving $, my numer one goal is revenge against big oil/government for sending my friends to die for oil. Ill do anything to get 100% increase in MPG how ever it can be done and it looks like on demand HHO is that way to go which is why im here.

share damnit. or Ill tell everyone about your mangina. :p

[M34me]

Tundra4X4, if you dont share via youtube and instructions. i will find where you sleep adn youll wake up next to a horse head, lol/ :cool:
Im only half doing this for saving $, my numer one goal is revenge against big oil/government for sending my friends to die for oil. Ill do anything to get 100% increase in MPG how ever it can be done and it looks like on demand HHO is that way to go which is why im here.

share damnit. or Ill tell everyone about your mangina. :p

And I'll help him! (except for the mangina part, I want nothing to do with that!:rolleyes:)

[biggy boy]

And I'll help him! (except for the mangina part, I want nothing to do with that!:rolleyes:)

You guys are too funny!

I hooked my 22 watt solar panel, puts out 1.4 amps to my big battery in the back of my truck to see how long it would take to charge it up, but the sun went away:(
and there's no sun today either.

[cabrera]

I saw this cooler for $20 at Autozone. I think this and a few fans will keep me cool since I will be using a 1 GPM pump on my cell.


Wow, Andy! $20??? That's a pretty good deal! How's the construction? Sturdy? It's not Aluminum, is it? I think KOH will eat it away, if it is... Let us know how it works out!

Just a quick update on the $20 tranny cooler. I went to A/Z and saw it, unfortunately it is 100% aluminum and KOH will destroy it. I do have an alternative. Having restored many cars in my time (Ford especially) I recall that my 1972 Mach 1 had a small cooler on the steering pump. It was all brass. Many big block engines with p/s carried this option, especially the big Lincolns.
Time to go hunting at the junkyards for an OEM unit.

http://429mustangcougarinfo.50megs.com/pscoolerscj2.jpg

[richard_lyew]

It is very clear that solar is a good thing, From one perceptive.

1. Panels have been done before, many times. So it is not a big deal.
I have used solar panels on my work truck ...

2. Solar panels alone could dominate this thread for days. And in reality it does not mean much when compared to what you have accomplished.
In the past the folks that make these super High MPG claims dont stick around, they may get **** off at folks or ... In any case they typically dont answer many questions, so spending time on the easy stuff is time wasted because they rarely ever get to the core reason behind the results. That said you have already demonstrated your ability not to react to the flames and you have responded to more question than most. So that alone impresses me :)


I look forward to you reply to the other questions.
thanks man, i will try my best to reply to as much as i can but for the pass few days ive been so busy with work that i didnt even have time to post here but im back now.

[biggy boy]

thanks man, i will try my best to reply to as much as i can but for the pass few days ive been so busy with work that i didnt even have time to post here but im back now.

Whew, I was worried you were off on a bender all weekend:p

[richard_lyew]

WOW, Can't say as I have ever seen a thread in any forum get this much attention is such a short amount of time.

I'll direct this to Richard.

To clarify, I never went past High School, other than the Navy. (Which I kind of regret, but I digress) I build both electrical and mechanical stuff for a living, so from that I have a fair amount of knowledge and I am very mechanically inclined.

I have asked many questions in the past regarding HHO that have never been answered. Some have tried, but I found flaws in their reasoning.
I do believe that there are gains to be had with HHO that have yet to be realized. But I consider myself a skeptic, albeit a optimistic/inquisitive skeptic.


You seem to have trouble with the fact that a lot of people aren't taking you seriously. I think you need to consider some things when it comes to that issue. The claims you are making are huge. It's like telling us you flew to the moon in a home built rocket and you did it undetected by the government/military. While technically possible, it is obviously quite hard to believe.

I have scrolled through the 12 pages of posts, kind of lightly scanning the information and specifically looking for pictures or videos of your system. I see none. (unless I missed them) You need to at very least do this if you want to be taken seriously.

Another problem I have is your language skills. I have a hard time taking people seriously when their language skills are so poor. If this is due to the fact that you are an immigrant from a non-english speaking country, then I understand. But if you were born in America and taught in American schools, or english speaking schools, then you need to learn better sentence structure and use spell check. Capitalizing sentences and proof reading and such goes a long way toward credibility.

I think your thoughts and insight are extremely valuable, but your claims are very hard to believe. Video and picture content would go a long way. Frankly this whole discussion is almost worthless without that content.

Please don't think I am trying to slam you in any way. Please consider it to be constructive criticism.


1 yes my sentences are a little off,etc... i am from Jamaica.
2 i am not trying to draw any attention
3 if i put up and kind of video or pictures it will be just like the moon landing video LOL
4 the best way for me to prove anything on here is have people do it themselves
5 as time goes by i will post all i can, i just don't want to put everything on everybody all at once without explanation
6 you said that you "very mechanically inclined", i have a question if you could answer for the forum please. Do you think that it is possible to double the output of an alternator with very little to no additional drag on the pulley?

[richard_lyew]

For what it's worth, having read between the lines of what Richard is saying, I think he's got some valid points in his description of his design, some which I know from experience have very interesting effects. I'm not going to say that I believe all the claims, but I have no doubt he may well have got them. I'm just saying don't dismiss it as he has something to contribute.
I find nothing in his statements which make me suspicious.
Some have complained that he should make it all clear and disclose everything. I think Richard did mention that he's trying to get it patented(for what it's worth). I think it's understandable that he wants to disclose it how he wants. How much credit for his work would he get if he just posted all the details. I bet some lowlife would be on the TV claiming that he'd put it all together within a week. Those who do the real work never get the credit till after they're dead usually. The glory too often goes to thieves and opportunists seekers. (Think Tesla 'v' JP Morgan)
Give him a break and learn what you can from what he is willing to offer.
There are far, far greater claims by eminent inventors of what is actually possible!!
It will either work or it won't, so what's the problem anyway?
Free your mind.....Neo

Thanks alot man, that's what i said in a post earlier that no matter if i post videos etc.. it would draw all the attention from the information to the video, people would spend so much time on videos and looking for where i could be porting the HHO from that they would probably stop paying attention to the information. Helz_McFugly asked me to share and alot more people are willing to test for themselves so im going to share all i can. storing HHO, i wont talk about until we are pass all the safety understanding about it, making it very high and fast i will, i already explained about storing AMPS and what happens when you do. i will explain how to use gravity in the setting up of your system etc...

[biggy boy]

1 yes my sentences are a little off,etc... i am from Jamaica.
2 i am not trying to draw any attention
3 if i put up and kind of video or pictures it will be just like the moon landing video LOL
4 the best way for me to prove anything on here is have people do it themselves
5 as time goes by i will post all i can, i just don't want to put everything on everybody all at once without explanation
6 you said that you "very mechanically inclined", i have a question if you could answer for the forum please. Do you think that it is possible to double the output of an alternator with very little to no additional drag on the pulley?

#6 You would probably have to change the diodes on the bridge rectifier
to handle the current, But not sure what other modes would be needed at this point with out doing some research.
OK Man let the cat out of the bag and tell use how to mod our alternators for more output! :)

[richard_lyew]

Just read through this entire post and have some questions, comments and observations Richard.

1. 150 mpg is astounding (post 1). Assuming that your 2.0 Subaru gets around 30 mpg stock, that is a 400% increase. Wow! At best others are seeing between 20% and 40%. Personally, I have never seen more than 3.5% mileage increase on my 2.0. Given this I hope you can understand the skepticism you are getting here. So, how are you calculating your increase? You should be using your miles driven between fill-ups, not what the computer tells you.

2. I am very interested in an AFC. Others have asked you about it but Helz took the initiative to find one in post 11. I like something that directly influence the cars ECU. It seems more capable that an efie or map/maf tweaker. Could you post the model AFC you are using?

3. Your MMW seems off a bit. I'm assuming that you are using 13.8 vdc from your batteries, on post 6 you said you were using 200a, on post 88 you said 20 liters per minute HHO. So, 20,000 ml per minute / 2760 watts = 7.25 ml per watt per minute. Or, 7.25 MMW. Which is very good! But it is not 10 or 15 unless I misread your posts somewhere.

4. I understand why you want to keep the fluid cool. I even bought a trans cooler like in post 76 but never installed it because it is aluminum. I use NaOh as a electrolyte which is very reactive with aluminum, so is KOh. What are you using as an electrolyte? And, where did you find a brass or stainless steel cooler? Please post the manufacturer.

5. Thank you for the cell diagrams you posted in 89. It looks like you are using a wet cell with two separate plate assemblies and alternating between them. Could you tell us the plate arrangement (+ - + - etc), the plate area (square inches), and what plate material you are using?

6. I have no problem with your extra batteries (amp buffer) or storing your HHO (buffer). You just want to stuff as much HHO into the engine as you can because you have discovered that it takes a lot more than just 1 or 2 lpm to make a difference on a 2.0 engine. At 10psi though I would not want to be anywhere near your car when the HHO auto-ignites though. This is why most of us are staying away from storing HHO.

The answers I and others are asking will not violate your patent application because there are only a few ways of doing electrolysis. And, since this technology has been around since the 1870's or so, there are plenty of other resources to find the same information. But, this is a forum where we are all trying to share information to make our lives a little less expensive, so please Richard, share here so we all can benefit from your research.

i love post like this, ok

1 im getting 150MPG from my 2.0L, everybody is all "Impossible!!!!!!!!!" but when Tundra4x4 post that he is getting 110% increase from his V8 tundra truck, no problem. i dont use the computer to calculate my MPG, i use the meter on the dask.

2 yes the AFC gives you full control over the ECU ask Helz, he did some research on them. im using a VAFC, its in one of my old video. oh yea 1 more thing i want people to look at, notice the dates on all my old videos, notice how far i was then and what i was doing. imagine where i am now.

3 i said it was about 10 at start and 15 after it warms up

4 i did not buy a stainless steel cooler, i buy an aluminum one just like you, but what i did was cut it down the middle (split it) place brass tubing inside the aluminum aluminum tubing and solder the brass tubing to the aluminum tubing, why i solder them is to transfer as much heat as possible, i didnt want to try and weld them together and solder seemed good to me so i solder them together and also solder back the other side to it. Please if anybody fine a better way, please post it and maybe pics and or videos.

5 wow this is where i know the oil companies are ganna stop this thread LOL. yes it is a wet cell with the entire generator stainless steel and grounded to the car. i dont remember exact measurements but i will post later when i check, i did the messurments base on the space i had to work with under my car, they are about 3"X8", with the body of the generator - the plate next to it will be + and from there its +-+-+-+-+, i prefer wet cells as i can cool it better. if you can, make all your - plates platinum coated, - bolts also. all +plates and bolts are stainless steel.

6 yes storing it was dangerous before i learn about static control but thats all im going to say about that.

electrolysis been around before 1800 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis and yes im sharing all i can.

[Helz_McFugly]

this has got to be the most interesting and funny thread Ive been a part of out of all the forums Im on. (Im a musician and a gun collector too so Im on those type of forums as well). but this one takes the cake.

to see someone come out of the blue claiming 100 to 300 MPG's when there really is no hard proof in the main stream that HHO saves MPG's at all, and thats due to all these crap companies selling thier BS with their huge savings that we all know really dont do sh1t, and thats what everyone sees because its in the mainstream and they come bash us, the ones who are making this technology work and not abusing it by selling a magic mason jar that will save you thousands of $. I was skeptical at first but I like to tinker so I did jsut that and now I know for a fact it works because im driving a car that Ive increased the MPG's on by about 35% and I drive it every day. I guess I could take it to a gov approved testing facility and have it tested but I want to wait untill I get it perfect. WHEN I get my 19 MPG car up to 38MPG's (100% increase) Ill take it in and get it documented to show the naysayers that it really does work. It really does get better MPG's and lower emissions.

I dont know why no one has done this yet. which was a huge red flag for richards claims. no proof what so ever. but Ill play along, Ive got enough time and $ to tinker with, and tinkering and running tests are fun as hell to me. this V-AFC richard spoke of is worth looking into. you can control how much fuel you put in. you can pretty much turn the fuel off. youll risk burning a valve, but these things do work. My brother is a proformance buff and hes in car clubs and all that jazz and knows about these AFC's and has people in his car clubs that use them, not to save fuel but Im going to go with him to his next meeting or what ever they do and check a few out and see what exactly they do. I like this one http://tinyurl.com/mz44rc Its worth testing for our type of testing.

[richard_lyew]

Richard, I DID NOT say extra batteries don't matter, as far as peak power goes. What I DID say, is that it doesn't matter how many batteries you have when it comes to SUSTAINABILITY. If your power source that is charging them isn't greater than or equal to your load, your batteries WILL deplete... The larger the bank, the slower they deplete, but the LONGER it takes to recharge them. Batteries are ONLY temporary. Once they deplete, where are you going to get the power from to recharge them? The wall outlet? Your company that gives you a job and allows you to feed your family(@POS Glen...)?

The point is, batteries only act as a "buffer" for PEAK power demand. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if you are making HHO, isn't this a CONSTANT POWER process(for the most part)? If that's the case, then your peak power is fairly constant, and your batteries do nothing for that.

BTW, Richard, just unveil the damn "magic machine" already... Don't lead these people on some sort of lame quest of self-realization about how to generate HHO. Just spill it, and stop milking it.

yeah!! im happy to see phill keeping up. ok phill what if the buffer of HHO that i have stored can charge all the batteries after i come to a full stop. just the engine idling off HHO only until the batteries are charged, no generator running just the stored HHO running the engine to charge the batteries. also people read up about turbo timers, they allow you to take the key out of your car and lock it and it will run for a period of time before shutting off. and im not milking anything sir, im just giving people time to catch up or even try some of the stuff. stop rushing thing phill remember you said it was impossible and now you want to rush. LOL. i can tell you now fully understand the buffering concept. just wait there is more to come.

[richard_lyew]

ALSO, AMPS does NOT equal HHO. Amps is a unit of charge per time... CHARGE is what gives HHO. You probably don't see it, and probably won't see it... but there is a huge difference.

There are different ways of moving charges through the water, to form HHO. One, is Richards way - just dump a crap load of current through your cell, and see the magic bubbles come up. The other, is to put cells in SERIES in order to utilize the higher-than-needed voltage(12V). The total amount of charge being moved in each case is fairly equal, but one method produces far less power loss. This is why the -nnnn+ plate configurations are so popular. Each cell drops part of the 12V, resulting in a lower current density through each cell. CURRENT DENSITY is what gives produces the heat in a cell(sort of). Higher current density = more power loss, AND equals less HHO per unit energy.

But hey, if you want to keep using excessive 12V AND massive current densities, go ahead.

If anyone wants to discuss the relationship between voltage/current density/wasted heat, etc. etc., start a thread. I'll be happy to share some detailed info on the subject since this is a VERY misunderstood area of HHO...

LOL you still didn't mention or don't want to mention about the shifting of power from 1 set of cells to the next and the fact that im using 0.5AWG wires. hey phill note all what i have post before, people are catching up. with small wires you will generate more heat?. hey here is a question for everybody not just phill. do you think by using smaller wires that you will generate more heat? also is it better to use 0.5 AWG wires when dealing with 12VDC@100 and more AMPS? would 0.5AWG wires generate less heat?

[biggy boy]

hi Phil it me POS Glen!

Here in Canada where temperatures get below freezing for several months. some Companys allow there employees to plug there vehicals into the outlets they provide in the parking lots. These are there for our use, to keep our batteries charged and warm and also for block heaters.
So If I'm a piece of **** for using something that is offered to me by my employer than yes you are right I am a piece of ****.


Glen

[richard_lyew]

Tundra4X4, if you dont share via youtube and instructions. i will find where you sleep adn youll wake up next to a horse head, lol/ :cool:
Im only half doing this for saving $, my numer one goal is revenge against big oil/government for sending my friends to die for oil. Ill do anything to get 100% increase in MPG how ever it can be done and it looks like on demand HHO is that way to go which is why im here.

share damnit. or Ill tell everyone about your mangina. :p

will the horse head still be attached to the horse? LOL. and come on Helz with the AFC alone people are saving, much less if you have HHO to add? check it out man

[richard_lyew]

You guys are too funny!

I hooked my 22 watt solar panel, puts out 1.4 amps to my big battery in the back of my truck to see how long it would take to charge it up, but the sun went away:(
and there's no sun today either.

oh boy i dont want to go offtopic but read this http://www.midsummerenergy.co.uk/information/wiring%20diagrams/solar_panel_wiring_diagrams.html , move your mouse over the pics at the top and read to fully understand.

[Helz_McFugly]

yea I really want a AFC. I just want to get one that best suits my needs. they are made for the proformance community who are trying to get more HP not for saving fuel. I like the AFC Neo's interface. nice and simple, easy to read and adjust. and yea Im sure I could safe gas by just using it, Ide lose HP but thats where the HHO would be needed, to make up for the lack of the fuel youre cutting off.


im getting 150MPG from my 2.0L, everybody is all "Impossible!!!!!!!!!" but when Tundra4x4 post that he is getting 110% increase from his V8 tundra truck, no problem. i dont use the computer to calculate my MPG, i use the meter on the dask.

that meter on your dash is a computer. you need to do the math at the pump. dont go by that meter on your dash. its not correct. fill up, drive X amount of miles, fill back up with Y gallons of fuel. devide Y into X.

[richard_lyew]

Whew, I was worried you were off on a bender all weekend:p


no man, work had me, and a simple problem with a server had me like a fool but i got around it.

[richard_lyew]

#6 You would probably have to change the diodes on the bridge rectifier
to handle the current, But not sure what other modes would be needed at this point with out doing some research.
OK Man let the cat out of the bag and tell use how to mod our alternators for more output! :)

man i didnt get to mod my alternator, i found out how to after i already bought mine but here is how you can. replace the coil or re wrap the coil.

check out this site
http://www.zena.net/htdocs/alternators/alt_inf.shtml

[richard_lyew]

this has got to be the most interesting and funny thread Ive been a part of out of all the forums Im on. (Im a musician and a gun collector too so Im on those type of forums as well). but this one takes the cake.

to see someone come out of the blue claiming 100 to 300 MPG's when there really is no hard proof in the main stream that HHO saves MPG's at all, and thats due to all these crap companies selling thier BS with their huge savings that we all know really dont do sh1t, and thats what everyone sees because its in the mainstream and they come bash us, the ones who are making this technology work and not abusing it by selling a magic mason jar that will save you thousands of $. I was skeptical at first but I like to tinker so I did jsut that and now I know for a fact it works because im driving a car that Ive increased the MPG's on by about 35% and I drive it every day. I guess I could take it to a gov approved testing facility and have it tested but I want to wait untill I get it perfect. WHEN I get my 19 MPG car up to 38MPG's (100% increase) Ill take it in and get it documented to show the naysayers that it really does work. It really does get better MPG's and lower emissions.

I dont know why no one has done this yet. which was a huge red flag for richards claims. no proof what so ever. but Ill play along, Ive got enough time and $ to tinker with, and tinkering and running tests are fun as hell to me. this V-AFC richard spoke of is worth looking into. you can control how much fuel you put in. you can pretty much turn the fuel off. youll risk burning a valve, but these things do work. My brother is a proformance buff and hes in car clubs and all that jazz and knows about these AFC's and has people in his car clubs that use them, not to save fuel but Im going to go with him to his next meeting or what ever they do and check a few out and see what exactly they do. I like this one http://tinyurl.com/mz44rc Its worth testing for our type of testing.

first of all how dear you to say that nobody has gone to government with prove. im sure their are alot of people out there that are way pass what i am doing and you dont know if they went to government with it. and yea on AFC they do just what you are looking for in your HHO application and anybody want any help at all with their AFC tuning just let me know and ill try my best to help. one more thing Helz i hope we will still hear from you if you go to government when you reach 100% increase. yeah Helz im going for the Neo soon too, that was the one i showed you, it has way more functions than my V-AFC :D

[Helz_McFugly]

oh I dare, i dare.. lol ok let me rephrase that. I have yet to see any one take it to a garage with a legit system and get a printout that has hard proof to backup such claims... better??

[richard_lyew]

hi Phil it me POS Glen!

Here in Canada where temperatures get below freezing for several months. some Companys allow there employees to plug there vehicals into the outlets they provide in the parking lots. These are there for our use, to keep our batteries charged and warm and also for block heaters.
So If I'm a piece of **** for using something that is offered to me by my employer than yes you are right I am a piece of ****.


Glen Gadam!!!! i wish i had free power like that. i wouldn't need to store HHO. i would just charge a bunch of batteries and go with no gas!!!!! nothing can beat a free charge

[Helz_McFugly]

i didnt say, take it to the government.. hell we all know they wouldnt let you leave without removing your brain first if you went to them with it. I meant a "gov approved garage". which is where we have to take our cars to get them inspected over here.

[richard_lyew]

yea I really want a AFC. I just want to get one that best suits my needs. they are made for the proformance community who are trying to get more HP not for saving fuel. I like the AFC Neo's interface. nice and simple, easy to read and adjust. and yea Im sure I could safe gas by just using it, Ide lose HP but thats where the HHO would be needed, to make up for the lack of the fuel youre cutting off.


that meter on your dash is a computer. you need to do the math at the pump. dont go by that meter on your dash. its not correct. fill up, drive X amount of miles, fill back up with Y gallons of fuel. devide Y into X.

aaahhhh now you are catching on to the AFC, and yeah i will do a check and see what my usage is like but i don't go to the gas station that much. :D

[richard_lyew]

oh I dare, i dare.. lol ok let me rephrase that. I have yet to see any one take it to a garage with a legit system and get a printout that has hard proof to backup such claims... better??

ok and make sure the media is there and the press and family members and love ones LOL

[Helz_McFugly]

see. we have hard core emissions regulations over here in the states. CA being the hardest. we have to get our cars inspected every year or get a nice little ticket and a fine for not doing to. In order to get an inspection sticker we have to pass emissions tests in most places. and some of these garages have those things you can pull your car up onto and run it to test the MPG's. what I was saying is Ive never seen any one who has taken their car to one of these places and have it tested and get the printout that states the facts. Im sure plenty of people have taken thier ideas to the gov only to be turned away. except these scam sites that sell the junk that makes HHO look bad which is exactly what they want it to look like.

[Helz_McFugly]

ok and make sure the media is there and the press and family members and love ones LOL

a local news film crew would do along side a buddy filming so they dont edit to much out :D

[richard_lyew]

i didnt say, take it to the government.. hell we all know they wouldnt let you leave without removing your brain first if you went to them with it. I meant a "gov approved garage". which is where we have to take our cars to get them inspected over here.

they always have the safety card to fall back on remember that, they will just say its not safe and you will have to remove it from your car. then remove your brain LOL :D

[Helz_McFugly]

they always have the safety card to fall back on remember that, they will just say its not safe and you will have to remove it from your car. then remove your brain LOL

can i get an hallelujah amen. lol :p

[richard_lyew]

see. we have hard core emissions regulations over here in the states. CA being the hardest. we have to get our cars inspected every year or get a nice little ticket and a fine for not doing to. In order to get an inspection sticker we have to pass emissions tests in most places. and some of these garages have those things you can pull your car up onto and run it to test the MPG's. what I was saying is Ive never seen any one who has taken their car to one of these places and have it tested and get the printout that states the facts. Im sure plenty of people have taken thier ideas to the gov only to be turned away. except these scam sites that sell the junk that makes HHO look bad which is exactly what they want it to look like.

ok, i understand because in Jamaica our cars get inspected too for cat converters etc.. and by the way who do you think is behind most if not all these scam sites? trying to sell people systems with no cooling tank, no form of cooling, blasted 20 or 30AWG wires, no circulation, no control, no form of ECU control and telling people that it works but then again in society the ignorant always pay for what they don't need so why not try to get in on that. my way is "if i don't need, i just don't need it then" and "why do i need it" then i will study it to fully understand it, just to make sure.

[biggy boy]

Phil
I was thinking about what you said about me using the power at work and me being a POS for planning on using it to charge my batteries, that will run my HHO generator.

Then a light bulb went off in my head.
My employer is very environmentally proactive and have a " Go Green" program that not only encourages employees to go green but also rewards them for doing so.
So I went and talked to the "GO Green" rep and told her what I was planning on doing and explained to her how HHO works and that I would be running it off the batteries and would be charging them at work and at home.
She told me it would qualify as a conversion.

It's a cool points system.
you earn point for reducing emissions ( "carbon foot print" ) thing.
Walking to work, public transport, car pooling, driving a hybrid and performing a vehicle conversion earn point payed out in a once a year bonus to our pension.

So I signed up. She said once I have the system set up in my truck I can start earning the points.

So here's the kicker Phil! Not only do I get to power up at work, but I also get a 1% bonus to my pension YES!!!

So actual I have to thank you for being such a big A$$, if you hadn't of made a point about it I may not have thought to ask.

Glen

[richard_lyew]

a local news film crew would do along side a buddy filming so they dont edit to much out :D

LOL you cant be too careful because Nasa said that the original moon landing footage was lost that's why they fake the footage released. LMAO

[cabrera]

I guess I could take it to a gov approved testing facility and have it tested

Yeah, then some bureaucrat would slap you with a fine because you made modifications to the emission control system on the car :D

BTW does anyone have any links online for AFCs and the like. I would like to read up on that.

[richard_lyew]

Phil
I was thinking about what you said about me using the power at work and me being a POS for planning on using it to charge my batteries, that will run my HHO generator.

Then a light bulb went off in my head.
My employer is very environmentally proactive and have a " Go Green" program that not only encourages employees to go green but also rewards them for doing so.
So I went and talked to the "GO Green" rep and told her what I was planning on doing and explained to her how HHO works and that I would be running it off the batteries and would be charging them at work and at home.
She told me it would qualify as a conversion.

It's a cool points system.
you earn point for reducing emissions ( "carbon foot print" ) thing.
Walking to work, public transport, car pooling, driving a hybrid and performing a vehicle conversion earn point payed out in a once a year bonus to our pension.

So I signed up. She said once I have the system set up in my truck I can start earning the points.

So here's the kicker Phil! Not only do I get to power up at work, but I also get a 1% bonus to my pension YES!!!

So actual I have to thank you for being such a big A$$, if you hadn't of made a point about it I may not have thought to ask.

Glen

come on man don't call him the a-word, that's how you say thanks?, the guy just help you save and earn money and you call him the a-word. come on leave all the name calling to phill please, and yea like i said earlier nothing beats a free charge plus you getting paid for it? gadam i wish i was working where you are. LOL i would line my truck back with batteries and have 2 high power chargers. my god with free electricity the possibilities are endless. you AMP buffer can be super high, with a good system that could take you home on no gas.

[IM2L844]

So here's the kicker Phil! Not only do I get to power up at work, but I also get a 1% bonus to my pension YES!!!

So actual I have to thank you for being such a big A$$, if you hadn't of made a point about it I may not have thought to ask.

GlenYou crack me up! And that, my friends is how a seemingly random confluence of circumstanses can converge to, once again, help good triumph over evil. LOL

[richard_lyew]

Yeah, then some bureaucrat would slap you with a fine because you made modifications to the emission control system on the car :D

BTW does anyone have any links online for AFCs and the like. I would like to read up on that.

oh boy im all over this one.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:RolNaeTK3MQJ:www.alamomotorsports.c om/apexi/electronics_safc_wire.pdf+AFC+manual&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=bs

the one im using
http://74.125.157.132/translate_c?hl=en&sl=fi&u=http://www.scribd.com/doc/12609731/Apexi-vAfc-Manual&prev=/search%3Fq%3DAFC%2Bmanual%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG&rurl=translate.google.bs&usg=ALkJrhgMZd6DF6UXCLInhg5WUxOKPWmKiA

S-AFC . i did a system for a friend that had one of these in his Subaru Impreza
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:Pc0b26ndhxgJ:www.apexi-usa.com/content/pdf6135.pdf+AFC+manual&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=bs

links to PDF's
http://rdmelton.autoeducation.com/cars/stealth/afc.html

[cabrera]

come on man don't call him the a-word, that's how you say thanks?

RDL - You definitely have class!

Glen - keep it profession man. Like I said before:
Bad Form

[cabrera]

oh boy im all over this one.

Thank you sir!
I guess I have my reading for the night!:D

[richard_lyew]

[QUOTE=richard_lyew;32664]oh boy im all over this one.

Thank you sir!
I guess I have my reading for the night!:D

Good, now that i caught up with the replies i can go check emails and other stuff LOL. ill be on later.

[richard_lyew]

ok, i guess this will give everybody a good read
http://www.apexi-usa.com/info/?id=5383

and for JDM
http://www.apexi.co.jp/download/
http://www.apexi.co.jp/products/electronics/

[biggy boy]

ok, i guess this will give everybody a good read
http://www.apexi-usa.com/info/?id=5383

and for JDM
http://www.apexi.co.jp/download/
http://www.apexi.co.jp/products/electronics/

Thanks for all the links Rickard Your the TOP DAWG!

OK Cabrera I'll behave :)
There is too much great info to be had here in this thread. I don't want to get kicked off the forum.

Glen

[Helz_McFugly]

Richard. do you or a friend have a digi camera, picture phone, anything? can you take a quick pic under your hood, or maybe just a shot of something other then your first little generator that we have all already seen on youtube. I know if you can take pictures of a stack of cash on your floor, you can take a quick one of your setup. im about to go make a lil video of my new system. I made lots of improvements this weekend and its working alot better.

[Roland Jacques]

Richard,

What you seem to have done that could be ground breaking. Is possibly Safely store HHO. It is hard for me to grasp that this can even be done, but your gasoline tank comprasion, does make a good point.

1. If you could provide more some details on how you do this, links, photos, equipment... :D

Probably even more importantly how you regulate your HHO from the storage tank.

2. How much (LPM) you feed to your engine at what RPM would be a very important detail. Details on the equipment you use to do this would also be helpful. :D:D

PS. I really liked your video!!

You fell asleep on these 2 questions so ill ask again. ( im not sure what stuff you dont want to talk about. So let me know)

[richard_lyew]

Thanks for all the links Rickard Your the TOP DAWG!

OK Cabrera I'll behave :)
There is too much great info to be had here in this thread. I don't want to get kicked off the forum.

Glen

TOP DAWG? lol man i do what i can to help, phill is the TOP DAWG

[richard_lyew]

Richard. do you or a friend have a digi camera, picture phone, anything? can you take a quick pic under your hood, or maybe just a shot of something other then your first little generator that we have all already seen on youtube. I know if you can take pictures of a stack of cash on your floor, you can take a quick one of your setup. im about to go make a lil video of my new system. I made lots of improvements this weekend and its working alot better.


LOL stack of cash on the floor is from all the money i saved off gas LOL and yea i have a very good digital camera and i might post pics later but for now its diagrams. i will post the setup of my system tonight.

[Helz_McFugly]

fair enough mon :p im just trying to get as much info as I can before my A.D.D. kicks in and I go spend a bundle having a 200 amp alternator installed , a high output dry cell that can handle 50 amps and a good AFC.

:D seriously though I am going to pick up a new cell. im almost sold on Smacks build of Bob Boyce's new design. Smack calls it "BB GenIV". I might even get the quad so I can rebuild it if I want to change the plate configuration. At 50 amps it makes 5 LPM.

what do you think Richard? get the dry cell or go with a bath cell that can handle more then 50 amps????

[richard_lyew]

You fell asleep on these 2 questions so ill ask again. ( im not sure what stuff you dont want to talk about. So let me know)

thanks for reminding me because this was an important 1 :D

ok first you need to find out how much cubic feet of air your engine uses at the variable RPM's then calculate the flow rate of air divided by half. something like this (Displacement X RPM = Volume/minute) then all you need is half of that depending on how close you can get the HHO to the cylinder and how potent it is when it gets there. there is no fixed value for everybody because as i post before the HHO is always being diluted as soon as it leaves your feed hose. here is a tool you can use

http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpengine/engine_equations_air_flow_rate.php

the flow of HHO from storage, now this is why i chose a VAFC, you notice i dont have a Honda but i sed a V-FAC?, the V is for vtec LOL but i dont have Vtec so why a VAFC?. i use a VAFC because the VAFC was designed to control the vtec of the cars that was equipped with the feature but instead i use it to control a solenoid valve for added HHO from storage. i try not to drive over 4000 RPM because i dont have much support of HHO up there. everybody have access to the VAFC manual now so you can read up about the vtec setting and @ what RPM you can force it to activate etc. so there you have it V activate more HHO when you ask for it.

here is more links to stuff, you are all big men you can figure it out
http://flow-control.globalspec.com/industrial-directory/air_flow_regulator
http://www.directindustry.com/industrial-manufacturer/air-flow-regulator-80185.html
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/categories/pneumatics-and-hydraulics/valves/solenoid-air-control-valves

hey remember i post that you should keep your solenoid valves on a separate battery
there i gave you 5+6 now do the math. i don't want people only coping what i have done but also come up with new ideas too and feel free to ask me anything, ill try my best to help.

[Philldpapill]

LMAO @ Glen

That's awesome. What I was implying about being a POS, was assuming you were going to be "stealing" the electricity from work. I hope we can all agree that doing so is wrong.

However, since they are actually in support of it, go for it! It doesn't cost you anything, and I'm sure they get some kind of government perk for trying "green" ideas.

[richard_lyew]

fair enough mon :p im just trying to get as much info as I can before my A.D.D. kicks in and I go spend a bundle having a 200 amp alternator installed , a high output dry cell that can handle 50 amps and a good AFC.

:D seriously though I am going to pick up a new cell. im almost sold on Smacks build of Bob Boyce's new design. Smack calls it "BB GenIV". I might even get the quad so I can rebuild it if I want to change the plate configuration. At 50 amps it makes 5 LPM.

what do you think Richard? get the dry cell or go with a bath cell that can handle more then 50 amps????


come on man, a 200AMP alt with a 50AMP cell? make you generator yourself so it can handle what you want, if you have a 200AMP alt then aim for 100 to 150AMP generator. also remember cooling!!!!!.

oh yea 1 more thing before i forget test your system at max load level. i notice that nobody else mentioned this so let me be the first to do it. when testing your system don't just turn on your generator and have the car idle. instead turn on your headlights on high beam, turn on your AC and your wipers on high. this will give you a better idea how to measure your load and support. the reason why i do this is to simulate driving at night in the rain and still be able to have your HHO system running in full condition without killing your batteries and stressing your electrical system. so if you have a 200AMP alt and a 100 to 150AMP system then i guess the 50AMPs thats left can more than run your car.

[Helz_McFugly]

my brother has a 200 amp alt hes going to give me that he use to use for some airbag & sound system he had in a car so I got me a good alt. Im thinking about ditching my spare tire and putting 3 or 4 deep cycle batteries in there, whats cool is my battery is already in the trunk and in the tire well so the others would be right beside it. my HO gen is also in my trunk and I just hose it up to the intake. so I think I can swing the high amps and the amp/volt storage in the batteries.

what type of cell can I build that can handle 100 to 150 amps. Im use to building cells that take no more then 30 amps or they boil. ????? i know how to cool a cell, thats no problem with a 30 amp cell but a 100 amp cell?? I need to know what type of cell we are talking here and I can make something to cool it. prolly the same thing I use to cool a 30 amp cell. copper transmission cooler http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1324&stc=1&d=1252984535

Richard mon, im willing to try your system if youll just coach me along. We can ge to the HHO storage last cuz im not comfortable with the storage of HHO AT ALL...YET! ya feel me?

[richard_lyew]

LMAO @ Glen

That's awesome. What I was implying about being a POS.

hey phill you five o man?, if not hit this then

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/o1deWMfRy7U&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/o1deWMfRy7U&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Helz_McFugly]

Texas has the ikky sticky. thought you knew :p

[richard_lyew]

my brother has a 200 amp alt hes going to give me that he use to use for some airbag & sound system he had in a car so I got me a good alt. Im thinking about ditching my spare tire and putting 3 or 4 deep cycle batteries in there, whats cool is my battery is already in the trunk and in the tire well so the others would be right beside it. my HO gen is also in my trunk and I just hose it up to the intake. so I think I can swing the high amps and the amp/volt storage in the batteries.

what type of cell can I build that can handle 100 to 150 amps. Im use to building cells that take no more then 30 amps or they boil. ????? i know how to cool a cell, thats no problem with a 30 amp cell but a 100 amp cell?? I need to know what type of cell we are talking here and I can make something to cool it. prolly the same thing I use to cool a 30 amp cell. copper transmission cooler http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1324&stc=1&d=1252984535

Richard mon, im willing to try your system if youll just coach me along. We can ge to the HHO storage last cuz im not comfortable with the storage of HHO AT ALL...YET! ya feel me?

i feel ya but your already storing HHO just not under pressure. you said your gen is in the back of the car right? how much HHO do you think you have stored in that line coming from the gen or the bubbler to the engine when you turn your car off?

nice cooler man, i would love one like the big one. ok i can help you to make the best system you can but first keep in mind that you might want to keep your system under the hood except for the batteries, this is what i want you to do, take a few pics of under your car and under the hood, i want to see what space you have to work with. also do you have access to a TIG welding plant or can get access to 1? maybe at a machine shop with a grinder as well, then we will access your spaces that you have for what to go. dam i just remember to post the diagram of how to place what.

also Helz, all my generators that i have built in the pass even the old one on youtube, they were all capable of going up to 300AMPS but dam did they get hot and out of control that is why im trying to get people to control their gens from going out of control.

[richard_lyew]

Texas has the ikky sticky. thought you knew :p

LOL whitey dont try LOL you said ikky sticky LOL. its sticky ikky LOL :D

[Helz_McFugly]

cut me some slack. it works http://www.forumsextreme.com/images/sEm_breath.gif

[richard_lyew]

hey im doing up a diagram of how to place the units of your system and why. but i just remember asking a question and nobody said nothing about it.

i asked if anybody here have any timing problem with any VVT or VVTi cars?

[Helz_McFugly]

tips on a cell mon. come off some so I can start my search for materials. I have to be building something or Ill explode. c'mon http://www.forumsextreme.com/images/sAng_explosive.gif

[Philldpapill]

Richard, are you implying that I'm a cop for suggesting stealing electricity is wrong?

What? It's just the basic "golden rule". If you're saving gas money at the expense of someone else(Glen's company in this case), how the hell is that inovative or in any way acceptable?

[richard_lyew]

tips on a cell mon. come off some so I can start my search for materials. I have to be building something or Ill explode. c'mon http://www.forumsextreme.com/images/sAng_explosive.gif

get a sheet of stainless steel, a grinder with pad to cut and grind stainless steel, a T.I.G welding plant with a pack of stainless steel rods, 6" stainless steel bolt and nots to go with them, PVC hot water pipe, the measurements of space under your car, gaps to work with and spots under the hood to work with, tubes of clear silicone then get back to me.

you shouldn't start anything and not have a plan where you ganna put it. look for the space first.

[richard_lyew]

Richard, are you implying that I'm a cop for suggesting stealing electricity is wrong?

What? It's just the basic "golden rule". If you're saving gas money at the expense of someone else(Glen's company in this case), how the hell is that inovative or in any way acceptable?

LOL i just felt to rattle your cage that's all

[Philldpapill]

Alright, well do that... Just don't rattle my cage, at the expense of incenuating that people on this forum advocate stealing energy/gas to accomplish their fuel saving goals. New people will think this is a shady place, and personally, I'd like as many people hanging out on here as can be handled.

[richard_lyew]

here is a basic layout of my system. remember when placing the units in your system to keep in mind GRAVITY, bubbles will rise and liquid will run down(with a pump not being in the way of course). place your generator at the lowest point(below or lower than all other unit), place your bubbler at the highest point(above all other units), place your filling point just below your bubbler (that way the bubbler will always have enough to bubble), place your cooler above your generator, place your cooling tank below your cooler and a little above your generator. this is a simple diagram of how my system is layout. and please note that where i have 2 lines crossed don't mean that they are connected. they are NOT connected. and your bubbler return line should be smaller than any other lines.
i didnt always have a pump on this system and it worked the same because the generator acts like a pump already and once you have circulation that's good. i only added the pump to better control circulation.

http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/7548/mysystemr.th.jpg (http://img269.imageshack.us/i/mysystemr.jpg/)

[richard_lyew]

Alright, well do that... Just don't rattle my cage, at the expense of incenuating that people on this forum advocate stealing energy/gas to accomplish their fuel saving goals. New people will think this is a shady place, and personally, I'd like as many people hanging out on here as can be handled.

really? you want people here? that's why you cuss them out so much right?. there are better ways to question someone other than cussing them out you know?. you should try having a conversation more often rather than cuss people all the time. i remember when i just started my thread here, by the very first page i felt like F this forum but Helz was some what different from you that is why im still here phill. if it was for you alone i wouldn't share sh.. a thing. i just want to get at lease 5 people up to 100% gain then after everybody can learn from them, then i wont have to stick around for your cussing.

[biggy boy]

Gadam!!!! i wish i had free power like that. i wouldn't need to store HHO. i would just charge a bunch of batteries and go with no gas!!!!! nothing can beat a free charge

Actually it's not as sweet a deal as you may think. We have to pay for parking here at work. It's $3.75 a day. They take it off our paycheck.
I guess that's how they make up for the cost of providing the outlets in the lots!?!?

Where I used to work for 10 years Husky Injection Molding System LTD,
not only was the parking free, they also had outlet throughout the parking lots.
There energy saving program was even better.
I used to get bonus points for stuff at home too, like hanging cloths to dry instead of using a dryer, planting a tree, not using pesticides on my lawn....
It all adds up in the end if a lot of people participate in these programs.

P.S.
Richard you can put people on your ignore list and then you don't have to see their posts. That is what I did with a certain someone:)
It's not a 100% fool proof, if someone else quotes their post then the quote shows up.

[Roland Jacques]

thanks for reminding me because this was an important 1 :D

ok first you need to find out how much cubic feet of air your engine uses at the variable RPM's then calculate the flow rate of air divided by half. something like this (Displacement X RPM = Volume/minute) then all you need is half of that depending on how close you can get the HHO to the cylinder and how potent it is when it gets there. there is no fixed value for everybody because as i post before the HHO is always being diluted as soon as it leaves your feed hose. here is a tool you can use

http://www.ajdesigner.com/phpengine/engine_equations_air_flow_rate.php

.

Maybe i missed something, maybe im not asking the question right. To achieve your kind of results, how much HHO would i have to add at the different RPMs?

Ill use my GMC VAN for example 5.7 engine (I dont know the VE so i just used .80)

Idle 700 rpm air flow rate = 1720 liter/minute
How many LPM of HHO should i be adding at this point________?

Hwy cruising speed 2000 RMPair flow rate = 4588 liter/minute
How many LPM of HHO should i be adding at this point________?

Accelerating under load 3500 RPM air flow rate = 8029 liter/minute
How many LPM of HHO should i be adding at this point________?

decimal point correction

[Helz_McFugly]

how much HHO do you think you have stored in that line coming from the gen or the bubbler to the engine when you turn your car off?

true but that would just make a loud noise if it ever got out of control. unlike compressed HHO, now that could turn you into soup.

the measurements of space under your car, gaps to work with and spots under the hood to work with, tubes of clear silicone then get back to me.you shouldn't start anything and not have a plan where you ganna put it. look for the space first.

Ive got loads of space because everything is in my trunk and I hose the HHO up to the engine and it works out fine. (which you know, I had to go back and look, I didnt see you had responded to that) so, as far as space, with my spare tire out I have 3 feet tall & about 5 feet wide & 4 feet deep, Ive made PLENTY of room. So Ide rather keep it in the trunk. I have NO room under the hood or under the car.

Now the diagram you posted is exactly the way I have my system setup now only no cooling tank or cooling coils. (its basically exactly like any dry cell system would be setup, only your using a wet cell) but then again Im only pulling about 15 amps and getting 1 LPM so heat is not an issue right now. but i am running a wet cell like you are that has water pumped into it and the bubbler above it. only my cell refills straight from the bubbler. I can add a cooling tank and cooling coil with fans, no problem mon. what I was asking is how your cell is setup. the gutts, the good stuff. like I have a 10 plate cell setup like this +nnn-I-nnn+. the I in the center is a .5" plexiglass spacer so i guess you could say its two, 5 plate cells. the plates are 6" x 2.5" 116L stainless steel. I know how to make a cell. I just want to know how your cell (your plate configuration) is setup that is can handle 100 to 150 amps. (I know you use .5AWG so I know the wires can handle it) whats your electrolyte ratio and what are you using?

and btw I have access to any type welder i need. I have a stick welder and my brother has a mig, but my friends garage has everything.

[Helz_McFugly]

Im getting a better understanding of how your system works. you use huge wire and battery banks to be able to get very high amps to create large amounts of HHO (10 to 20 LPM) and keeping your cell cool with all the cooling tanks and cooling coils, at the same time being able to have 100% control of the gasoline being put into your engine (AFC).
and you store HHO for times that your gen isnt creating high output such as when you first start your car. thats pretty much your system in a nuttshell correct?
http://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/tiphat2.gif

I left out how you are regulating how much HHO you are giving the engine because im sure that a whole new animal

[richard_lyew]

Actually it's not as sweet a deal as you may think. We have to pay for parking here at work. It's $3.75 a day. They take it off our paycheck.
I guess that's how they make up for the cost of providing the outlets in the lots!?!?

Where I used to work for 10 years Husky Injection Molding System LTD,
not only was the parking free, they also had outlet throughout the parking lots.
There energy saving program was even better.
I used to get bonus points for stuff at home too, like hanging cloths to dry instead of using a dryer, planting a tree, not using pesticides on my lawn....
It all adds up in the end if a lot of people participate in these programs.

P.S.
Richard you can put people on your ignore list and then you don't have to see their posts. That is what I did with a certain someone:)
It's not a 100% fool proof, if someone else quotes their post then the quote shows up.

ok i understand what you are saying but at lease now you will be using the outlet provided to you as much as you can, you are paying for it anyways.

wow Canada seem big on this cutting down your carbon foot print thing, i never hear anybody come forward and say that about an USA company. i would love to work for a company like that in Canada.

and thanks for the tip but, na I'm not ganna block anybody especially big oil. i suspect phill from day 1 as big oil, i think he is deep cover. this and because of Helz why i stick around and start sharing all the main things that big oil dont want people to know. the first thing i hit him with was the cooling, he tried so hard to prove he wrong but he couldn't, then came the high AMPS and 0.5AWG wires, he tried to say more AMPS dont mean you will have more HHO production, then i hit him with buffering, he tried to play as if he didnt know what buffering was when everybody have a computer and use youtube and always wait for the buffer to full up so they can watch the video without a hitch. matter a fact you know what? thats the metaphor i should have used from day one.

alright here goes, you ever use a slow connection to watch a video and it took some time to buffer then you can watch it? well think of your HHO system as your internet connection, the HHO your video and your computer the car's engine. now think about if you have half of that video buffered already.
free your minds.

[Helz_McFugly]

Here is a VERY crude drawing of the cell im using right now, I suck at drawing with a mouse. it doesnt show the relays, switches, or battery. only the HHO system im using. if I added a cooling tank and cooler in my refill line it would be just like what you have, only my cell cant handle over 30 amps unless i DO install a cooling system and maybe reconfigure my plates. I plummed it this way because this is how the dry cells are done.
http://www.hhoforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1325&stc=1&d=1253032981

[Philldpapill]

Right, Richard, I'm "big oil". We all know "big oil" has covert operatives, roaming amateur forums, hunting down any signs of "revolution" against those big giant evil companies that are hell bent on keeping the population in check.

Stupidity, aside - Why the hell would I be on here, sacrificing my "friendliness", by trying to rat out the scam artists and frauds? Why would I try to push the community towards scientific measurement and REAL analysis? Why would I try to motivate people away from these things, if I were working for big oil? I haven't ever called you, or anyone else, out on something that isn't BS. When I see someone claiming that they are getting more energy out of a gallon of gasoline THAN IS IN a gallon of gasoline, that's when I yell fire. You can keep up your personal attacks on me(rather than discussing your/everyone's methods), but I called you a fraud because of your statement about getting 200MPG.

Giving the energy needed to propel an average vehicle(in your case a Subaru), at a constant speed, 200 miles, your claim exceeds the amount of energy in gasoline. Period.

This is simple math, that I'll reiterate: Assuming your car(stock) is even 25% efficient, and gets 30MPG highway, you would ONLY get 120MPG if it were 100% efficient! There isn't any hardcore complicated formula's needed. MPG divided by efficiency = possible MPG at 100% efficiency. In your case, 30MPG / 25% = 120MPG. That is the absolute maximum MPG you can achieve without any external power sources.

If you want to factor in your battery bank, then your statement is misleading - you aren't getting 150 or 200 miles PER GALLON, you are getting that mileage PER GALLON AND JOULE of gasoline AND electricity. Don't forget - the electricity STILL costs money and STILL puts off CO2 during production. And don't give me that crap about "well, the electricity comes from solar or hydro" - less than 10% of the energy in the US comes from these sources - and a hell of a lot less in your country(Jamaica?).

[Philldpapill]

Just a quick poll for my own curiosity so I know who is on the same page:

1) Agree/Disagree - Richard's "buffer" does absolutely nothing for the classic Thermodynamics concept: Energy into a system = Energy out of a system - meaning it doesn't matter one bit how big his buffer is - he's still using the same amount of energy, so he NEEDS to generate the same amount of energy. Also, explain WHY a buffer is so important, other than supplying peak power during small durations of time.

2)Explain WHY cooling is so important, water vapor aside(we all know higher temps = more water vapor in gas). Do you REALLY think that cooling leads to higher efficiency with electrolysis? What is Richards point about cooling? Why does it matter? This isn't an argument, but a question... I don't understand and would like an explaination.

3)Do you understand WHY saying you get 150MPG with a 30MPG car, with 25% stock efficiency is a lie?



And for Richard - your analogy of youtube is a good one. Let's consider a LONG video, and a fairly slow connection. You can sit and wait 10 minutes for your buffer to fill up 5 minutes worth of video. Now, if you start watching your video, you will eventually have to let the buffer fill up AGAIN, right? Why? Is it because the rate at which you view the video, exceeds the time it takes to download that portion of the video? In other words, your connection can't keep up with keeping the buffer full?

Equate that to your battery analogy... If your alternator, or other energy generator, can't produce enough power to keep up with your load(the electrolyzer, lights, etc.), won't your battery deplete eventually? If so, once the battery is depleted, you must wait for them to recharge before you can drive with your system on, again, right? So, isn't the total amount of drive time limited by your power source(alternator)?

That is my point. No matter how big your batteries are, you are still limited by how much power you can produce. IOW, your battery "buffer" is really just a form of a hybrid electric/ICE. You still have to pay for the electricity, and a carbon footprint...

So, Richard, since I'm such an ignorant, big oil operative, fool, WHY do you need a buffer? When going on a long trip, won't your batteries deplete, needing a recharge?

[Philldpapill]

Helz - Clever design. How do you keep the bubbler liquid from sloshing around, into the exhaust port of the bubbler? For smooth, level ground, it shouldn't be a problem, but I'm just thinking about the worst case - potholes.

I've been working on a way to fix that problem for a while now. The only thing I can think of, is to put some kind of membrane between the "air" gap, and the liquid. This way, it limits the sloshing inside the canister... I'll post a picture soon.

[Helz_McFugly]

I have a 4th chamber thats not on that diagram. Its just an empty sediment filter with the filter still in it. kinda like a moistier remover on an air compressor. it catches any overflow or steam. thats it. check you PM's I wanted to ask you about those caps.

[Mika]

Phil, you should also notice that our cars are not running at their max. efficiency all the time, not even near. ICE has its maximum energy efficiency at full load, at wide open throttle. When we run constant highway speed on a flat road, we don't need to make the engine make more power than, maybe 15 hp on a reasonably sized car. We only need very much power when we accelerate.

Btw, I think this is why those big v8 engines have the best gains, the engines are ridiculously oversized for maintaining stable highway speed, and are running at very low efficiency, so there's a HUGE room for improvements.

[IM2L844]

Richard, I looked through this thread and couldn't find where you have posted the specifics of your system. Sorry if I've missed it. Would you mind posting them again if you already have? I see you have 6 plates (5 cells) per side with power to them switching back and forth ever 3 seconds so that only one side at a time is drawing amps (producing HHO). Is this correct?

What are your maximum voltages and amperages? And what is the output at those voltages and amperages?

[cabrera]

Im getting a better understanding of how your system works. you use huge wire and battery banks to be able to get very high amps to create large amounts of HHO (10 to 20 LPM) and keeping your cell cool with all the cooling tanks and cooling coils, at the same time being able to have 100% control of the gasoline being put into your engine (AFC).
and you store HHO for times that your gen isnt creating high output such as when you first start your car. thats pretty much your system in a nuttshell correct?
http://forums.randi.org/images/smilies/tiphat2.gif

I left out how you are regulating how much HHO you are giving the engine because im sure that a whole new animal

My biggest safety concern is the HHO storage issue. What kind of container is it? What material, what about static? :eek:

Don't want to end up like this:
http://csos.movieset.com/download/movieset/s/ekfnsl/images/9r963n-560x420.jpg

[Philldpapill]

Mika, that was exactly my point... The top effiency IS at highway speed. If the top effiency is 25% at highway speed(btw, my Civic gets about 33-35MPG highway, stock), then that simple calculation still holds. However, I'm sure you know, but your statement was worded strangely, which implied that somehow power relates to effiency... Not the case. I mean, there IS an effiency vs. RPM plot, which translates into kind of power vs. efficiency, but they aren't related. Also, the average sedan uses around 30hp, cruising.


On a totally different note - I was thinking about my earlier comment about how it's more effienct to run your car on gasoline instead of Electricity - totally my F'up. I did that example of the car going 60MPH, thinking you would burn one gallon of gas in one hour, but getting 30MPG... Totally a brain fart there - Oops! You would burn TWO gallons of gas, resulting in a price of about $4.50 per 40hp-hours, vs. something like $2.70 for electricity. Clearly, it's cheaper to use electricity..... I'm going to go back and correct that, but just put a line through that statement, leaving it intact for the reader to see my mistake. Damn.

[cabrera]

Helz - Clever design. How do you keep the bubbler liquid from sloshing around, into the exhaust port of the bubbler? For smooth, level ground, it shouldn't be a problem, but I'm just thinking about the worst case - potholes.

I've been working on a way to fix that problem for a while now. The only thing I can think of, is to put some kind of membrane between the "air" gap, and the liquid. This way, it limits the sloshing inside the canister... I'll post a picture soon.

To avoid that you use a 2nd bubbler or a scrubber with baffles in it and a stone filter on a hose inside the inlet. The second bottle need not have much if any fluid in it as long as there is a flame arrestor between the scrubber & engine.

[Philldpapill]

cabrera, the stone/sediment method works for a while, but eventually, if enough sloshing gets in, that setup will be saturated with water. That's the problem with it. I'm trying to figure out a long term, stable, way of taking the water out of it.

Kind of like Richards batteries again..... Except in reverse - if you keep sucking energy out of the batteries without putting enough in, they will go dead. In this case, if you keep forcing the sediment/stone to suck up the water vapor, but without any vapor leaving, they will saturate eventually...

[Mika]

No, phil. I'm sorry to say but you're completely wrong. ICE certainly work at it's best efficiency at full load. However, this has nothing to do with fuel economy. You get your best mileage when your engine makes the minimum work.

This is why small turbocharged engine consumes less fuel than similar car with naturally aspirated bigger engine. Both cars has to make same power to maintain same speed, but smaller engine is working harder, aka has more load, and that's why uses less fuel because it is working in better energy efficiency.

Internal combustion engine can be max 25% efficient, but no way when you're cruising at stable speed.

Compare volkswagen jetta 1.4 tsi and 2.0 fsi.

Also, i meant standard european car. I quess standard _american_ car is standard european + 500 kg...

[Philldpapill]

Mika, again, you are right, but your definitions are off... It sounds like you are confusing "Load" with torque. If an engine is turning at 1000rpm, and is applying 100foot-lbs of torque, how much more of a load does it have, than when it is turning 2000rpm and applying 50foot-lbs? It's the same. The LOAD is the same on the engine. Engines are specifically geared for maximum efficiency at a certain speed. Most often in civilian vehicles, this maximum efficiency speed cooresponds to about 55mph(note the double notch on your speedometer).

In other words, generally, highway speed IS the maximum efficiency operating point, thus the 25% efficiency holds for that example. Don't confuse maximum POWER with maximum efficiency. Efficiency is basically (energy / unit of fuel) / (energy IN fuel).

[Helz_McFugly]

Here is a valid question about the buffering that must be answered to somewhat validate this thread. even when your gen is pumping HHO at 20LPM, where do you get the pressure or vacuum to store the hho in a compressed container thats small enough to fit in a car, much less enough HHO to compinsate the 20 LPM your engine needs while the genarator warms up to 20 LPM? :eek:

[cabrera]

cabrera, the stone/sediment method works for a while, but eventually, if enough sloshing gets in, that setup will be saturated with water. That's the problem with it. I'm trying to figure out a long term, stable, way of taking the water out of it.

Kind of like Richards batteries again..... Except in reverse - if you keep sucking energy out of the batteries without putting enough in, they will go dead. In this case, if you keep forcing the sediment/stone to suck up the water vapor, but without any vapor leaving, they will saturate eventually...

Of course eventually it will saturate, true of anything, without periodic maintenance it will fail.
You have to define long term.
The Bubbler/Scrubber system should have baffles & stone then it goes to the dry scrubber which also has a stone and is staggered slightly more elevated than the bubbler.
That keeps the slosh out, now the vapor will be caught by the stone in the scrubber and yes it will saturate and need replacing. It's no more of a chore than changing any other filter on the vehicle.

[Helz_McFugly]

Of course eventually it will saturate, true of anything, without periodic maintenance it will fail.
You have to define long term.
The Bubbler/Scrubber system should have baffles & stone then it goes to the dry scrubber which also has a stone and is staggered slightly more elevated than the bubbler.
That keeps the slosh out, now the vapor will be caught by the stone in the scrubber and yes it will saturate and need replacing. It's no more of a chore than changing any other filter on the vehicle.
yea mine gets about an inch of yellow water in it every 3 or 4 days. I jsut pore it out and put a little more in and hope it runs the same. I dont know how to check the mixture of my water/KOH levels yet so i just guess.

[Helz_McFugly]

try not to post in this thread untill the question in post 205 is answered please. :D

[biggy boy]

No, phil. I'm sorry to say but you're completely wrong. ICE certainly work at it's best efficiency at full load. However, this has nothing to do with fuel economy. You get your best mileage when your engine makes the minimum work.

This is why small turbocharged engine consumes less fuel than similar car with naturally aspirated bigger engine. Both cars has to make same power to maintain same speed, but smaller engine is working harder, aka has more load, and that's why uses less fuel because it is working in better energy efficiency.

Internal combustion engine can be max 25% efficient, but no way when you're cruising at stable speed.

Compare volkswagen jetta 1.4 tsi and 2.0 fsi.

Also, i meant standard european car. I quess standard _american_ car is standard european + 500 kg...

Hi Mika welcome!
Are you the same Mika from the other forum Fuel-Saver?

[richard_lyew]

true but that would just make a loud noise if it ever got out of control. unlike compressed HHO, now that could turn you into soup.

Ive got loads of space because everything is in my trunk and I hose the HHO up to the engine and it works out fine. (which you know, I had to go back and look, I didnt see you had responded to that) so, as far as space, with my spare tire out I have 3 feet tall & about 5 feet wide & 4 feet deep, Ive made PLENTY of room. So Ide rather keep it in the trunk. I have NO room under the hood or under the car.

Now the diagram you posted is exactly the way I have my system setup now only no cooling tank or cooling coils. (its basically exactly like any dry cell system would be setup, only your using a wet cell) but then again Im only pulling about 15 amps and getting 1 LPM so heat is not an issue right now. but i am running a wet cell like you are that has water pumped into it and the bubbler above it. only my cell refills straight from the bubbler. I can add a cooling tank and cooling coil with fans, no problem mon. what I was asking is how your cell is setup. the gutts, the good stuff. like I have a 10 plate cell setup like this +nnn-I-nnn+. the I in the center is a .5" plexiglass spacer so i guess you could say its two, 5 plate cells. the plates are 6" x 2.5" 116L stainless steel. I know how to make a cell. I just want to know how your cell (your plate configuration) is setup that is can handle 100 to 150 amps. (I know you use .5AWG so I know the wires can handle it) whats your electrolyte ratio and what are you using?

and btw I have access to any type welder i need. I have a stick welder and my brother has a mig, but my friends garage has everything.

ok, how long have you had your HHO setup that way and how much time have it made a loud bang?

oh boy i wouldn't advice a trunk build because of cooling but i guess you always have the AC on so what the hell, lets do this. i just hope you can get a circulation going in your trunk. man i wish i had access to a fully equipped machine shop like you. ok the upside to this is that your units have the flexibility to be various sizes. i want you to post the measurement of your cooler.

for the build get 1 sheet of 16ga stainless steel sheet and 1 sheet of 18ga stainless sheet, 8 stainless steel bolts(6"x1/4" or 6"x1/4") with about 30 nuts and flat stainless steel washers to go with them, 4 feet of 1/4 inch hot water PVC pipe,4 feet of 1/2 inch hot water PVC pipe.

i will post the measurements of the cell i want you to build later, and please post a rough layout of how your system is setup and pics of the units so i can see if all your units can be reused.

[Helz_McFugly]

Ive been studying and working with HHO for about 6 months. OK so under my car in the back, where I port my line out of the truck, under the car, there is enough room for a cooler and fans, I can just hose out to it and hose back in.. no problem. what Im worried about is where my storage is going to be and how big the container has to be and how im going to contain it, pressure and or vacuum. or do I even need this? this is why I demanded an answer to the the question. I dont want to store HHO. ide rather just adjust fuel as the gen heats up. cool?

it doesnt make a bang sond, It was a "what if", if it were to explode it wouldnt be that bad, but if I had 13kg's stored at 20 psi,, ide be road kill.

[redrat100]

Just a quick poll for my own curiosity so I know who is on the same page:

1) Agree/Disagree - Richard's "buffer" does absolutely nothing for the classic Thermodynamics concept: Energy into a system = Energy out of a system - meaning it doesn't matter one bit how big his buffer is - he's still using the same amount of energy, so he NEEDS to generate the same amount of energy. Also, explain WHY a buffer is so important, other than supplying peak power during small durations of time.

2)Explain WHY cooling is so important, water vapor aside(we all know higher temps = more water vapor in gas). Do you REALLY think that cooling leads to higher efficiency with electrolysis? What is Richards point about cooling? Why does it matter? This isn't an argument, but a question... I don't understand and would like an explaination.

3)Do you understand WHY saying you get 150MPG with a 30MPG car, with 25% stock efficiency is a lie?

As I understand Richard's system:
1. Disagree. "Buffering" or storing HHO will help his mileage. In an earlier post he mentioned that you need to pump in about half as much HHO as the cfm your engine is pumping through. The only way to do this, without having a HHO gen the size of a Mack Truck, is to store some of it. When he lets it loose into the engine at 10 psi, it will supplement the gasoline burn. This is also why he has a battery bank and solar panels, to produce enough HHO when the car is parked. BTW, it is only a matter of time before his luck runs out and his car is a smoking hole in the ground. Storing HHO is an accident waiting to happen.
2. He requires cooling because wet cells tend to boil very quickly. Mine took about 20 minutes for a full boil. I now use dry cells. This is also why he is alternating between the two cells in his jar. To try to keep the fluid between the plates cool. The plate gap voltage must be less than 2.3v. Adding neutral plates do that.
3. Maybe. I think a large part of his gains are because of the VAFC he is using to dial down his fuel are mixture. I would like Richard to post his mileage gains using his set up without any electronic intervention.

[Roland Jacques]

try not to post in this thread untill the question in post 205 is answered please. :D
OK, :rolleyes: hehehehe

[Roland Jacques]

Actually post 188 is before yours. And 188 covers your same question as 205. Which is the same as question as the post 12 which was my second question on the page 2.

If he uses 4 LPM at idle then he could divert the rest (16 LPM) to his reserve tank SO... This would be a pretty involved set up but doable

[Roland Jacques]

In an earlier post he mentioned that you need to pump in about half as much HHO as the cfm your engine is pumping through. .

There it is, I must have missed this. That answers a lot of question, and raises a to more.

So is he saying i need 1/3 of all the air volume to be HHO?????:eek::eek: That cant be right, ill have to find that post.

[cabrera]

it is only a matter of time before his luck runs out and his car is a smoking hole in the ground. Storing HHO is an accident waiting to happen.

Storing HHO to me is the only downside to his system. Without the HHO storage I wonder what his MPG increase would be? Besides, how would that play with DOT regs? You can't take LP gas into a tunnel, I'm sure HHO would be an issue as well.

[Philldpapill]

Oh good lord... I must have missed that statement about "half as much HHO as cfm intake". REALLY?

If your engine is just IDLING at 500rpm, 2.0L, and a very conservative Volumetric efficiency of 75%, then your engine would be taking in 375LPM. If my HHO needs to be about 1/3 of that("half as much HHO as your cfm" = 1/3 air intake), then I need to produce at 125LPM JUST AT IDLE?????

Come on people! That's not even remotely feasible... Can anyone verify that Richard did indeed say something so ridiculous?

@redrat - I think I talked about exactly how much HHO you could generate on a really good day of sun, and LOADS of solar panels on your car... With an entire day of charging and storing HHO, you MIGHT be able to suppliment 13 miles worth of HHO... MAYBE doable for very small commutes, but totally impractical for the rest of us. Thanks for responding to that, redrat. However, Again, the point about #3, was that even if your car was super-duper 100% efficient, you STILL could not reach 150MPG in any form, WITHOUT supplimentation of another energy source. I don't care what kind of fancy electronics he has on the car - it's basic conservation of energy. If you don't buy into the Law of Conservation of Energy, then doesn't that make you an OU nut? That's one of, if not THE, most basic laws of the universe.

[Boltazar]

This has been a very interesting thread so far.

Question: Has anyone ever heard of vaccume accuated valve that would allow more HHO into the vaccume stream as the vaccume decreases, that's adjustable.

[Helz_McFugly]

Actually post 188 is before yours. And 188 covers your same question as 205. Which is the same as question as the post 12 which was my second question on the page 2.

If he uses 4 LPM at idle then he could divert the rest (16 LPM) to his reserve tank SO... This would be a pretty involved set up but doable

:p yea I got stepped all over on that one. lol. its was a question that popped into my head at work as I try to picture Richards system in my head, being theres no pictures, and I didnt have time to go back and look to see if it had been answered, as I should have, but in all fareness this is a huge thread. Mulligan?

[redrat100]

Oh good lord... I must have missed that statement about "half as much HHO as cfm intake". REALLY?

If your engine is just IDLING at 500rpm, 2.0L, and a very conservative Volumetric efficiency of 75%, then your engine would be taking in 375LPM. If my HHO needs to be about 1/3 of that("half as much HHO as your cfm" = 1/3 air intake), then I need to produce at 125LPM JUST AT IDLE?????

Copied from another post of mine: "A 2L engine pumps 375 lpm of fuel air mixture throught the combustion chambers at 500 idle rpm." (That is low idle for a 2.0) So, according to Richard he uses 187.5 lpm HHO.
For highway speeds, 3000 rpm, CFM = 2250 LPM. 1100 lpm HHO??? Doubtful.

Can anyone verify that Richard did indeed say something so ridiculous?

Yes, From post 170: "ok first you need to find out how much cubic feet of air your engine uses at the variable RPM's then calculate the flow rate of air divided by half. something like this (Displacement X RPM = Volume/minute) then all you need is half of that depending on how close you can get the HHO to the cylinder and how potent it is when it gets there. there is no fixed value for everybody because as i post before the HHO is always being diluted as soon as it leaves your feed hose. here is a tool you can use."

@redrat - I think I talked about exactly how much HHO you could generate on a really good day of sun... Not disagreeing at all.

As I said before, I think most of his gains are from tweaking his ECU.

[Roland Jacques]

This has been a very interesting thread so far.

Question: Has anyone ever heard of vaccume accuated valve that would allow more HHO into the vaccume stream as the vaccume decreases, that's adjustable.

What post was that?
As i look back through this i missed a few thing that deserve more questions.

[redrat100]

Storing HHO to me is the only downside to his system. Without the HHO storage I wonder what his MPG increase would be?
Besides, how would that play with DOT regs? You can't take LP gas into a tunnel, I'm sure HHO would be an issue as well.

Somehting else I am wrestling with: He is using a wet cell. Even though he runs two plate sets in the same bath, it can be counted as one because he switches between them and only runs one at a time.

When I built my wet cell, the best output I had was 1/3 lpm but is was a small cell. The wet cells I have seen that produce 4 lpm, as mentioned earlier by Roland in post 214, would not fit under the hood as Richard claims. Let alone 20 lpm from a wet cell.

Something else Richard has not mentioned is how long his HHO buffer lasts. It must become depleted after a measure of time. So, how far does his mpg drop then?

One way he could come close is if, as he stated, he pumps as much current through the plates as he can. If this is the case, he is only boiling water and not making much HHO. Some mileage increase will come from the water vapor. But not 150% or whatever he is saying.

Richard, come clean here.

[Roland Jacques]

The question from Richard here was
"ok here goes tell me how far could 15kg of HHO at 20psi take a 2liter engine car?"


Mass of 1 mole hydrogen gas (H2) = 2 grams.
So the mass of 22.4 liters (stp) H2 is 2 g.
1 kilogram = 1kg = 1000 grams.
1 cubic foot = 28.25 liters
1000 grams of H2 = 500 X 28.35 liters = 11,200 liters
i'll pm you and email you tommorrow . i've got a ton of questions.


Help me understand this please.

15 kg is a unit of weight right? so why would psi be relevant? (not important OK but this is)

what size container/tank would you need to hold 15 kg of HHO at 20 psi
I'm not sure i can figure this out but it sounds like a HUGE tank.

Its already convert this into 11,200 liters should make it easier to figure

[redrat100]

Here is a valid question about the buffering that must be answered to somewhat validate this thread. even when your gen is pumping HHO at 20LPM, where do you get the pressure or vacuum to store the hho in a compressed container thats small enough to fit in a car, much less enough HHO to compinsate the 20 LPM your engine needs while the genarator warms up to 20 LPM? :eek:

Just to bump this very good question to the top.

[redrat100]

The question from Richard here was
"ok here goes tell me how far could 15kg of HHO at 20psi take a 2liter engine car?"




Help me understand this please.

15 kg is a unit of weight right? so why would psi be relevant? (not important OK but this is)

what size container/tank would you need to hold 15 kg of HHO at 20 psi
I'm not sure i can figure this out but it sounds like a HUGE tank.

Its already convert this into 11,200 liters should make it easier to figure

15kg = 33 lb. My bar-b-que has a 20 lb propane tank. Two would suffice.

[Roland Jacques]

15kg = 33 lb. My bar-b-que has a 20 lb propane tank. Two would suffice.

Not sure about that,
1. Propane is stored at about 100 psi at 70 degrees in a liquid state. If the temp goes up to 110 F the psi rises to 190 psi. it really a different animal


2 I'm not sure if HHO can be a liquid. Much less at a low psi

[redrat100]

Not sure about that,
1. Propane is stored at about 100 psi in a liquid state. i think it needs to be at least 60 psi to be a liquid
2 I'm not sure if HHO can be a liquid. Much less at a low psi

Oops, your'e right. Boyles' Law again. Maybe Richard meant 15kg as a measurment of pressure, like psi? Don't know.

[Helz_McFugly]

exactly what i was thinking. with the AFC you can control exacty what your F/A ratio is at any set rpm. of course you lose torque/hp so you try replacing that gas being cut with HHO. 2.0 engine at highway rpms, say 2000 rpms, and producing 20LPM HHO, you can cut your fuel ratio down from 14.7:1 to X:1. (X=air) and still have enough HP/torque to get up to 2000 to 3500 RPMs and highway speeds.

We need the F/A ratio needed to run an IC on only HHO. I think you can find it here but its over my head or maybe someone knows the answer
( http://www.docstoc.com/docs/8568558/hydrogen-based-IC-engines )

knowing the A/F ratio of a HHO only IC engine we can find the value of X and know how far we can cut back our A/F ratio on a 2.0 liter engine while producing 20LPM of HHO and have enough HP/torque to drive the car at 2000 to 3000 RPMs at highway speeds.

Is this the right way to figure this out?

[HardCorps325]

I just started with HHO theories today, so please be kind....

Instead of a canister to remove water in the line, why not just have a sponge in the bubbler that floats along the top of the water to prevent the water from sloshing into the exit port? The sponge circumference would be less than the bubbler's circumference to allow the HHO gas to easily bypass the sponge.

[Helz_McFugly]

Instead of a canister to remove water in the line, why not just have a sponge in the bubbler that floats along the top of the water to prevent the water from sloshing into the exit port? The sponge circumference would be less than the bubbler's circumference to allow the HHO gas to easily bypass the sponge.

thats a great idea. yo could put divits along the inside of the chamber so it can only go so high. that would work perfect. great input HardCorps325.

I saw one guy use a round piece of scotch bright in a similar fashion but it just floated and he was using it to get rid of foam. the sponge is a great idea. I might jsut try it. thank you

[biggy boy]

thats a great idea. yo could put divits along the inside of the chamber so it can only go so high. that would work perfect. great input HardCorps325.

I saw one guy use a round piece of scotch bright in a similar fashion but it just floated and he was using it to get rid of foam. the sponge is a great idea. I might jsut try it. thank you

I have seen the scotch bright idea but it was jammed up tight to the top of the bubbler where the gas exits, not touching the fluid. more of a moisture trap/filter then a slosh barricade I guess.

[Helz_McFugly]

for moisture I have a watere sedimate filter with the paper type filter still in it and I run the HHO inot the "out" side which forces the gas down the center of the tube and through the paper filter and it catches the steam and pumps out nice dry HHO out of the "in" port on the filter, Looks like this with the top off. http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/rodi/ro_sediment1.jpg

[Mika]

Ok phil, seems that my explanations aren't good enough so what about this.

"Compression Ratio

The efficiency depends on several factors, one of which is the compression ratio. Most gasoline engines have a ratio of 10:1 (premium fuel) or 8:1 (regular fuel), with some high performance engines reaching a ratio of 12:1 with special fuels. The greater the ratio the more efficient is the machine. Higher ratio engines need gasoline with higher octane value, which inhibits the fuel's tendency to burn nearly instantaneously (known as detonation or knock) at high compression/high heat conditions.

It should be noted that at lower power outputs, the effective compression ratio is less than when the engine is operating at full power, due to the simple fact that the incoming fuel-air mixture is being restricted. Thus the effective engine efficiency will be less than when the engine is producing its maximum rated power. One solution to this fact is to shift the load in a multi-cylinder engine from some of the cylinders (by deactivating them) to the remaining cylinders so that they may operate under higher individual loads and with correspondingly higher effective compression ratios. This technique is known as variable displacement."

Engines are geared for maximum fuel economy, not the best efficiency. Two completely different things. If our cars were geared for maximum efficiency, we would be running 500 cc cars with 12 gears. Would those be practical?

This is the point where you should again think why that jetta 1.4 tsi get better fuel economy than 2.0 fsi.
Smaller engine is forced to work harder, that means that the cylinder are more full on a small engine than on that big engine. Both cars have to make same power, but since smaller engine makes it with better efficiency (has more load), it uses less fuel. Why do you think manufacturers are decreasing engine sizes while keeping them on the same power level?

[biggy boy]

for moisture I have a watere sedimate filter with the paper type filter still in it and I run the HHO inot the "out" side which forces the gas down the center of the tube and through the paper filter and it catches the steam and pumps out nice dry HHO out of the "in" port on the filter, Looks like this with the top off. http://www.melevsreef.com/pics/rodi/ro_sediment1.jpg

I have what you have there, but mine is also filled with small plastic
pelets (Air Soft) inside the center of the filter and out side. The whole thing acts a one big flash arester.

Link: This is where I got the idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3zU4s54Lco&feature=related

Glen

[Helz_McFugly]

I expected to get on here this morning and find alot more informative posts. :p


richard_lyew: for the build get 1 sheet of 16ga stainless steel sheet and 1 sheet of 18ga stainless sheet, 8 stainless steel bolts(6"x1/4" or 6"x1/4") with about 30 nuts and flat stainless steel washers to go with them, 4 feet of 1/4 inch hot water PVC pipe,4 feet of 1/2 inch hot water PVC pipe.
who builds off a list?
sorry man but I build off blueprints, schematics, pictures i can replicate.
I think what we have here is a man with an IDEA
not a built, working, tested system.
initially we all got worked up because of the 100 to 300mpg claims made by Richards "Idea", which he strongly believes in, but only claims its already been built and is running at this moment, and with such claims we try to debunk them while he keeps skipping the important questions only to answer others to let the important ones get lost in the thread.
His motivation?: Ego? bragging rights to say he has stumped some very intelligent people? self accomplishment of having someone try his "idea"?
I played along to see if I could ever get a picture, or a video, or just a fuel recept with some calculations on it as proof because the math hasnt added up from the begining. yet nothing. no proof at all that he has increased his fuel economy at all even with his 1st generator we saw pictures of and a video of that he says was his first build.
show me proof and Ill continue to playing along, other wise Im going to let this thread fall into the archives and take my valid questions to new threads.

[biggy boy]

show me proof and Ill continue to playing along, other wise Im going to let this thread fall into the archives and take my valid questions to new threads.

Well I'm going to stick around! Any piece of info is good, even if I only come away from this thread with being able to apply 10% of what is discussed here,
I'll be happy (IE: the AFC!) Anyway this thread is making us think.

I don't know at this stage of my knowledge of HHO the answer, but I'm willing to stick it out be it good or bad.

Glen

[IM2L844]

I think what we have here is a man with an IDEA
not a built, working, tested system.
I agree. I was hoping to get some details so I could run them through my calculator. Some cursory calculations show that in order to get 6 plates (5 cells at a time) to draw 100 amps, he would need to get his overall system resistance down below 0.2 Ohms between the positive terminal of his power source and the negative teminal of his power source and I don't see that happening.

[Roland Jacques]

Yep Yep Yep, lots and lots of red flags in this thread. But even with that it did inspire some different kind of thinking. The spin off thread "Debate: Batteries vs alternator to power HHO cell" was a eye opener for me. :)

[richard_lyew]

Here is a valid question about the buffering that must be answered to somewhat validate this thread. even when your gen is pumping HHO at 20LPM, where do you get the pressure or vacuum to store the hho in a compressed container thats small enough to fit in a car, much less enough HHO to compinsate the 20 LPM your engine needs while the genarator warms up to 20 LPM? :eek:

i dont need all 20LPM to idle. and the storing of HHO is really super dangerous if not done with very high safety. this is why storing HHO will be the last thing i talk about if i talk about it at all. my system needs about 5 mins to warm up. and ive been so busy i didnt even finish the blueprint of the gen i want you to build but i will make sure finish it tonight when i catch up with the post and replies.


i had to edit this to add, HHO is best stored in a carbon fiber container, and idle at less than you are making to store the extra(do this before you shut off your car). i just a turbo timer to give me the spin down time. if i left anything out please let me know.

[richard_lyew]

yea mine gets about an inch of yellow water in it every 3 or 4 days. I jsut pore it out and put a little more in and hope it runs the same. I dont know how to check the mixture of my water/KOH levels yet so i just guess.

oops i just saw this. notice my bubbler have a return line?

[richard_lyew]

Ive been studying and working with HHO for about 6 months. OK so under my car in the back, where I port my line out of the truck, under the car, there is enough room for a cooler and fans, I can just hose out to it and hose back in.. no problem. what Im worried about is where my storage is going to be and how big the container has to be and how im going to contain it, pressure and or vacuum. or do I even need this? this is why I demanded an answer to the the question. I dont want to store HHO. ide rather just adjust fuel as the gen heats up. cool?

it doesnt make a bang sond, It was a "what if", if it were to explode it wouldnt be that bad, but if I had 13kg's stored at 20 psi,, ide be road kill.

yes i understand and for now i rather help you to make a system that gives high level of HHO out without storage.

[richard_lyew]

As I understand Richard's system:
1. Disagree. "Buffering" or storing HHO will help his mileage. In an earlier post he mentioned that you need to pump in about half as much HHO as the cfm your engine is pumping through. The only way to do this, without having a HHO gen the size of a Mack Truck, is to store some of it. When he lets it loose into the engine at 10 psi, it will supplement the gasoline burn. This is also why he has a battery bank and solar panels, to produce enough HHO when the car is parked. BTW, it is only a matter of time before his luck runs out and his car is a smoking hole in the ground. Storing HHO is an accident waiting to happen.
2. He requires cooling because wet cells tend to boil very quickly. Mine took about 20 minutes for a full boil. I now use dry cells. This is also why he is alternating between the two cells in his jar. To try to keep the fluid between the plates cool. The plate gap voltage must be less than 2.3v. Adding neutral plates do that.
3. Maybe. I think a large part of his gains are because of the VAFC he is using to dial down his fuel are mixture. I would like Richard to post his mileage gains using his set up without any electronic intervention.

LOL the gain without controlling the ECU is very very little. the car RPM goes way up and behave crazy not to mention it stresses your transmission and breaks when you come to a stop, its like giving it gas while stopped. this is why a AFC is very important, it gives you full control on the fly, if driving and you feel 2000 to 3000 RPM is weaker than you like, you can just pull over and close the air intake some more. when you guys get to AFC tuning you will see what im talking about.

[richard_lyew]

Actually post 188 is before yours. And 188 covers your same question as 205. Which is the same as question as the post 12 which was my second question on the page 2.

If he uses 4 LPM at idle then he could divert the rest (16 LPM) to his reserve tank SO... This would be a pretty involved set up but doable

LOL i answered the question before seeing this, im trying to catch up LOL. yep and all that the system is making goes to storage, the car runs from storage. the extra valve adds the extra from storage when i need it, when at idle the car is getting 10LPM.

[richard_lyew]

There it is, I must have missed this. That answers a lot of question, and raises a to more.

So is he saying i need 1/3 of all the air volume to be HHO?????:eek::eek: That cant be right, ill have to find that post.

that would be if you were trying to replace the amount of air with HHO but you are not trying to do that, you are trying to replace the power of the amount of gas being used with HHO, the amount of air can remains the same or less.

i know you guys love to read up so here is something
http://www.eoearth.org/article/Hydrogen_storage

[richard_lyew]

Storing HHO to me is the only downside to his system. Without the HHO storage I wonder what his MPG increase would be? Besides, how would that play with DOT regs? You can't take LP gas into a tunnel, I'm sure HHO would be an issue as well.

yep but in Jamaica there is no tunnels. well for now just try to make a high output system and cut back on your gasoline as much as you can with a AFC.

[richard_lyew]

Oh good lord... I must have missed that statement about "half as much HHO as cfm intake". REALLY?

If your engine is just IDLING at 500rpm, 2.0L, and a very conservative Volumetric efficiency of 75%, then your engine would be taking in 375LPM. If my HHO needs to be about 1/3 of that("half as much HHO as your cfm" = 1/3 air intake), then I need to produce at 125LPM JUST AT IDLE?????

Come on people! That's not even remotely feasible... Can anyone verify that Richard did indeed say something so ridiculous?

@redrat - I think I talked about exactly how much HHO you could generate on a really good day of sun, and LOADS of solar panels on your car... With an entire day of charging and storing HHO, you MIGHT be able to suppliment 13 miles worth of HHO... MAYBE doable for very small commutes, but totally impractical for the rest of us. Thanks for responding to that, redrat. However, Again, the point about #3, was that even if your car was super-duper 100% efficient, you STILL could not reach 150MPG in any form, WITHOUT supplimentation of another energy source. I don't care what kind of fancy electronics he has on the car - it's basic conservation of energy. If you don't buy into the Law of Conservation of Energy, then doesn't that make you an OU nut? That's one of, if not THE, most basic laws of the universe.

yes but like i said you are not trying to replace air, you are trying to replace the power provided by the gasoline, find how much HHO it takes and try to supply it. at the moment i have plans that not much if anybody else at all will try, but i am studying how nitrous systems work because if they port the nitrous directly down in the combustion chamber you know what that means for me? ohhhhh boy, i will post more about this later.

[richard_lyew]

This has been a very interesting thread so far.

Question: Has anyone ever heard of vaccume accuated valve that would allow more HHO into the vaccume stream as the vaccume decreases, that's adjustable.

yes sir, you can check here for 1
http://assuredautomation.com/

[richard_lyew]

:p yea I got stepped all over on that one. lol. its was a question that popped into my head at work as I try to picture Richards system in my head, being theres no pictures, and I didnt have time to go back and look to see if it had been answered, as I should have, but in all fareness this is a huge thread. Mulligan?

yea it is a big thread because its my whole system and there are alot of parts to it. oh well we will get there soon enough.

[richard_lyew]

Not disagreeing at all.

As I said before, I think most of his gains are from tweaking his ECU.

yep, without control what would you have?, i just try to keep everything happy 1. the gen, with cooling 2. the ECU with a AFC.

oh yea i just remember this to share with phill, how could i leave out my good friend phill?. in my old video with my AFC you will see that its set at -15% without my HHO system on :D if you dont believe go have a look. and with that old stupid hot system i was only getting about 5LPM and could -40% at idle :D and i wasnt storing nothing but AMPS in extra batteries back then.

[richard_lyew]

Somehting else I am wrestling with: He is using a wet cell. Even though he runs two plate sets in the same bath, it can be counted as one because he switches between them and only runs one at a time.

When I built my wet cell, the best output I had was 1/3 lpm but is was a small cell. The wet cells I have seen that produce 4 lpm, as mentioned earlier by Roland in post 214, would not fit under the hood as Richard claims. Let alone 20 lpm from a wet cell.

Something else Richard has not mentioned is how long his HHO buffer lasts. It must become depleted after a measure of time. So, how far does his mpg drop then?

One way he could come close is if, as he stated, he pumps as much current through the plates as he can. If this is the case, he is only boiling water and not making much HHO. Some mileage increase will come from the water vapor. But not 150% or whatever he is saying.

Richard, come clean here.

it never boils. keep this in mind, a 5Gal pot of water on a flame the same as a 1Gal pot of water, which you think will boil first? now think about cooling some of that 5Gal while it tries to boil.