HHO Calculator

[IM2L844]

I've just finished rebuilding my HHO calculator. You can try it out here:

http://www.nicksrealm.com/HHO/Calculator.html

I've included some instructions which are available from the drop down menu. Let me know what you think.

Nick

[biggy boy]

Tried to use the calculator but It would not let me input anything in the feilds.
I looks good thou:)

[IM2L844]

Hmmm, that's not good, but I just went back and tried it with Internet Explorer 8, Firefox, Google Chrome and Safari and it worked just fine in all 4.

Are you sure you were trying to enter data on the "User Input" side and not the "Calculator Output" side?

Maybe you need to have allow Javascript enabled, but I wouldn't think so because it's just basic form fields until you click the "Calculate" button.

[oicu812]

thanks nick... I was able to input the fields and it worked great. its a very usefull tool thank you for your work.

[cabrera]

Nice Job Nick!

Great Tool.

[IM2L844]

Thanks. I try and do what little I can.

[Roland Jacques]

Tried to use the calculator but It would not let me input anything in the feilds.
I looks good thou:)

Yep, it is doing the same for me also,Cant input info
And yeah it does look good

[IM2L844]

Yep, it is doing the same for me also,Cant input info
And yeah it does look goodWEll, crap! I can't, for the life of me, think of a single reason anyone would be having this particular trouble unless it is specific to some browser security setting. There is a chance I was fooling around in the file system, but I don't think so.

If the problem persists after you re-load the page, could you give me a little info on your setup (browser and version, OS and version, etc.)? I'll see if I can track down the problem and get it taken care of.

Oh, and thanks for the compliment.;)

[IM2L844]

Okay, I've tried something just incase it was the method I used to position the tables that was keeping the cursor from focusing on the form fields when clicked.

I've wrapped them in div tags and positioned them that way. It might help some people...I don't know.

It was working for me before with 4 different browsers and it is still working for me in all 4 browsers.

If you guys, that were having trouble, get a chance to try it again, I would appreciate any feedback.:D

Thanks,
Nick

[Helz_McFugly]

WOW! now that is just awesome man. great work

I have a couple newbie question. what info is it asking for where it askes for seconds, # of cell stacks, and test volume. and on active plate area, do you just want one side of the plate or both? my plates are 6x2.5. would that be 15 or 30 sp inches?

might want to put a legion on there for us hho newbies :p

[Roland Jacques]

Its working for me now. Thanks for the tool.:)

[IM2L844]

WOW! now that is just awesome man. great work

I have a couple newbie question. what info is it asking for where it askes for seconds, # of cell stacks, and test volume. and on active plate area, do you just want one side of the plate or both? my plates are 6x2.5. would that be 15 or 30 sp inches?

might want to put a legion on there for us hho newbies :pThanks! If you will click on the "Choose an option" Drop down menu and click on Instructions, a new screen should pop up with an explanation of how everything works and how to decide what data to enter. I just wrote it up so there may be some stuff I need to re-do.

I may have taken for granted that everyone will understand some point or another that in reality is about as clear as mud.

[Roland Jacques]

Your calculators includes plate counts... I have seen a few calculator like this one they raise a ton of questions for me. maybe you can help me figure them out.

Number of plates Question
It shows that if I have 14 plates with 2 cell stacks approximately 140 sq In.(like a Smack BB gen 4 electrolyzer) pulling 10 amps 13.8 volts, = 7.25 MMW.
your calculator shows that only 74 % of the gases are HHO. If i add 6 more plates, with the same volts, amps
Now my percentage of actual HHO is 108%.
When you use less plates with the same LPM and MMW it = less actual HHO.
1. So what is the remaining Gases?
2. Why is it less precentage of HHO when using less plates?


Temperature question

If the Gases are hotter, and still producing the same LPM and the same MMW
You calculator says hotter gases equals more percent of HHO. (This appears backwards to me)

3. Why?

When gases are hotter dont they expand and displace more LPM? So shouldn't 1LMP @77 degree actually have more HHO (density) than 1LMP at 150 degrees? (not to mention the steam associated with 150 plus degree electrolyzer)

Sorry about my poor english I had to edit this a few times. I Hope my questions makes sence

[IM2L844]

Thanks, Roland, I may need more information before I can answer your question. First, you should never have an even number of plates in 2 cell stacks or you're just wasting a plate and space. you should have 13 or 15.

Second if you entered 140 sq inches for active plate area that would mean your plate area inside the gaskets are nearly 12 inches by 12 inches.

Third The calculator output does not give HHO gas output as a percentage. I'm really not sure what you're talking about.

I think that maybe, you should read the instructions available from the "Choose an option" drop down menu and then tell me exactly all the data you entered into each one of the "User Input" data fields.

Thanks. If you will do that, I think we can get it figured out.
Nick

[Roland Jacques]

Thanks, Roland, I may need more information before I can answer your question. First, you should never have an even number of plates in 2 cell stacks or you're just wasting a plate and space. you should have 13 or 15.
The BB smack cell is two separate cells bolted together each cell has 7 plates (it is a magnetic field thing)

Second if you entered 140 sq inches for active plate area that would mean your plate area inside the gaskets are nearly 12 inches by 12 inches.

I'm not clear on the sq in determination I'll try to access the drop downs. I thought it just exposed surface a area of each plate added up (im guessing i should not have added them up)

Third The calculator output does not give HHO gas output as a percentage. I'm really not sure what you're talking about.

My input was 1000 ml at 60 seconds (1LPM) the H2 was about 490ml and the O2 was about 250 ml. Total 740ml (which is 74% of 1000ml

I think that maybe, you should read the instructions available from the "Choose an option" drop down menu and then tell me exactly all the data you entered into each one of the "User Input" data fields.



Thanks. If you will do that, I think we can get it figured out.
Nick

I have not been able to access the drop downs I'll try again thanks

[IM2L844]

It shows that if I have 14 plates with 2 cell stacks approximately 140 sq In.(like a Smack BB gen 4 electrolyzer) pulling 10 amps 13.8 volts, = 7.25 MMW.

My input was 1000 ml at 60 seconds (1LPM) the H2 was about 490ml and the O2 was about 250 ml. Total 740ml (which is 74% of 1000ml)

Now I see. You were entering a hypothetical scenario. Your configuration, with 14 plates, only has 12 cells while a traditional electrolyzer would only have 13 plates and 12 cells.

Well, I need to add a note in the instructions telling people that have a configuration like that to do one of two things. Treat it exacly like two seperate electrolyzers which is what it really is as far as production goes. or simply subtract a plate from the number entered into the field because the calculator, for now is only geared up to handle traditional confiurations. It will work for others, but special accomodations, like I just mentioned, have to be made.

Anyway, the 740 ml output is the predicted output of HHO derived from Faraday's Laws if the electrolyzer were operating at 100% Current Efficiency. You entered 1000 ml as the test volume and the calculator correctly indicated that was greater than 100% Current Efficiency.

[Roland Jacques]

I think i understand now
The calculator has nothing to do with Gas laws. Like it does not factor in Charles law . I guess it assumes you have already have corrected LPM. Example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles%27_Law
Charles Law calculator
http://www.1728.com/charles.htm

Both of these hypothetical electrolyzers may produce 1LPM of gas. 10 amps 13.8volts =7.25 MMW

1.) 1000 ml @150 F= 879ml @ 77 F ambient temperature (a correction of 12%)
or
2.) 1000 ml @100 F= 961 ml @ 77 F (a correction of 4%)

Some cells run hot some cool so i thought the calculator corrected for it 7.25 MMW would actually be.

1.) 6.38 MMW

2.) 6.96 MMW

[IM2L844]

Yes it automatically corrects volume for any temperature you enter like this:

The volume of Hydrogen, or any gas for that matter, per mole is a given value. At standard pressure and temperature, the volume of Hydrogen per mole is 22.414 Liters or 22,414 Milliliters which, by the way, is the Ideal Gas Constant (0.0820574587) multiplied by the Standard Temperature in Kelvins (273.15 K which is equal to 0 C or 32 F). Also, this is the point in the calculation where temperature corrections are made to adjust the volume per mole.

For example, many people will use what is commonly referred to as "room temperature" (25 C = 77 F = 298 K) to make these calculations which makes the volume of gas per mole = Ideal Gas Constant (0.0820574587) multiplied by room temperature in Kelvins (298 K) = 24.4531226926 Liters or 24,453 Milliliters per mole.

1 mole of Hydrogen yields 2 moles of electrons.

The electrical charge of one mole of electrons (Faraday's Constant) is given as 96,485 C (1 Faraday). Since we have two moles of electrons, the electrical charge delivered by one mole of Hydrogen = 2 X 96,485 C or 192,970 C.

Hydrogen volume = Electrical charge in Coulombs (60 C) / (divided by) Electrical charge delivered by one mole of Hydrogen (192,970 C) X (multiplied by) Hydrogen Volume per mole (22,414 milliliters or 24,453 milliliters at room temperature ) =

60 C / 192,970 C = .000311

.000311 X 22,414 = 6.97 milliliters at 273.15 K which is equal to 0 C or 32 F

Or, at room temperature (77 F or 298 K)

.000311 X 24,453 = 7.60 milliliters

Hydroxy contains 100% more Hydrogen than Oxygen, so we need to add 50% of 6.29 which brings us up to 10.45 milliliters. Okay, let's verify that again by performing the calculations for the other half reaction for Oxygen and adding it to our results for Hydrogen.

Instead of 2 moles of electrons like we had for Hydrogen, we have 4 moles of electrons for Oxygen, so 4 X 96,485 C = 385,940 C/mole.

60 C / 385,940 C = 0.000155

0.000155 X 22,414 = 3.48 milliliters of Oxygen at 273.15 K which is equal to 0 C or 32 F

Or, at room temperature (77 F or 298 K):

.000155 X 24,453 = 3.80 milliliters

Now,

6.97 milliliters Hydrogen + 3.48 milliliters Oxygen = 10.45 milliliters of Hydroxy per minute per amp per cell at 273.15 K which is equal to 0 C or 32 F.

Or, at room temperature (77 F or 298 K):

7.60 milliliters Hydrogen + 3.80 milliliters Oxygen = 11.4 milliliters of Hydroxy per minute per amp per cell.

[IM2L844]

Again, I don't think I made it very clear. The calculator does NOT take the volume you enter and convert it in any way. The calculator uses Faradays Laws to predict what the output volume should be for your configuration at 100% Faraday Efficiency at any temperature and atmospheric pressure you enter. It then displays that. Then it compares that to the actual volume that you entered over the length of your test period and compares that to the volume predicted by Faradays laws for the same length of time as your test period. It then displays your configurations performance in terms of percentage of Faraday efficiency (properly called Current Efficiency)

Roland, do you think it would be better for the calculator to ask the user to enter the total number of cells instead of the total number of plates? It makes more sense to me but I wan't sure if some people would really understand what constitutes a "cell".

[biggy boy]

OK working for me too now.
Thanks! :)

Glen