Does injection point of HHO matter????

[Roland Jacques]

Does it make any difference whether we inject HHO closer to the combustion chambers or not????

If you have direct experience with this please state so. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of this & sort out whether this is just a rumor or not.

[Philldpapill]

I don't have a very big background in this sort of thing, but I HAVE seen a lot of rumors going around about HHO, as if the people starting the rumors are trying to make HHO more exotic somehow. If anything, it would seem that this rumor SHOULD be the opposite as you want the HHO to be as thoroughly mixed as possible. Adding into the air intake as far upstream as possible would maximize this effect. Just my $0.02.

[Roland Jacques]

If anything, it would seem that this rumor SHOULD be the opposite as you want the HHO to be as thoroughly mixed as possible. Adding into the air intake as far upstream as possible would maximize this effect. Just my $0.02.

Phil i agree with you. This has always been my postion also .

I'm just looking for folks who may have tried comparing the two. And what results they may have seen.

[fuel worrior]

[B]PLEASE PLEASE HELP i,m so confused i bought an hho kit from ebay its got 2 generators how ever i,m so worried as to where to inject the hho i have a mitsubishi pajero shogun in the uk its a 2.8 turbo diesel i,v heard that you should inject before the turbo but some folk on the net are saying it will ignite in the turbo thus destroying it ,can anyone enlighten me PLEASE PLEASE KIND REGARDS STEVE UNITED KINGDOM.... :confused::confused::confused:

[Philldpapill]

For safety reasons, I'd advise AGAINST using it with any car with a turbo... There is always the risk of ignition of the HHO as it's being produced, but that is typically confined to the bubbler. With a turbo, you will have HHO under pressure... if that ignites...... nice knowing you.

Also, come to think of it, I don't think HHO would work well at all with a turbo. Think about it... you will be subjecting the chamber to a vacuum(or close to it, on the intake side). That's going to pull massive amounts of water vapor.

Bottom line, don't use HHO with a turbo. Also, you need to start your own thread. Hijacking a thread with your own issue isn't nice.

[richard_lyew]

yes it does matter where you port it. read this http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=5328

[Philldpapill]

You're right... It needs to be as well mixed as possible, therefore, as far "upstream" as you can. However, I doubt it makes much difference due to the turbulent nature of the intake system, anyway...

[fuel worrior]

sorry guys i,m new to forums did not know what to do really did'nt mean to hi jack anyones threads sorry once again wont post anymore

[Philldpapill]

fuel worrier, I didn't mean to put you off... You are more than welcome here! It's just a good idea to keep threads on topic with their subject so that other people can come along and find information more easily... Sorry if that came off as scolding you - no ill will intended.

[fuel worrior]

none taken i meant i would;nt do that again you aint put me off

[richard_lyew]

fuel worrier, I didn't mean to put you off... You are more than welcome here! It's just a good idea to keep threads on topic with their subject so that other people can come along and find information more easily... Sorry if that came off as scolding you - no ill will intended.

Phill im new here too and you do tend to give people that feeling. would you like for everybody to leave and you can be leader of the site? im just kidding man. now on the topic, yes try to port your HHO out put as close to the cylinder as possible, like i said in my post, dont port it in any air lines, instead just port it to the vacuum, thats as direct as you will ever get. here is one of my old video showing what i did.

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[Philldpapill]

richard - why? HHO doesn't lose any magic if you port it in further upstream. Why do you say as close as possible? A few people have said this, but never provide an explaination.

Also, richard, if you hang around for a while, you'll see that I actively try to fight off all the scams and fraud surrounding HHO. It makes me so angry when someone makes false claims. Other people then look down on ME because of the ridiculous claims of others. I sure don't like that. I don't know you, but your claims of 150MPG is just silly. I mean, if you're going to make something up, make it believeable... maybe 50MPG?

[richard_lyew]

[B]PLEASE PLEASE HELP i,m so confused i bought an hho kit from ebay its got 2 generators how ever i,m so worried as to where to inject the hho i have a mitsubishi pajero shogun in the uk its a 2.8 turbo diesel i,v heard that you should inject before the turbo but some folk on the net are saying it will ignite in the turbo thus destroying it ,can anyone enlighten me PLEASE PLEASE KIND REGARDS STEVE UNITED KINGDOM.... :confused::confused::confused:

i have installed on a turbo car before. turbo engines have 2 air intake that they breath through, the big one is the one with the boost(stay away from that one), the small one is the one that it use to throttle(this is where you should port your HHO).

please do this and post results.

[richard_lyew]

For safety reasons, I'd advise AGAINST using it with any car with a turbo... There is always the risk of ignition of the HHO as it's being produced, but that is typically confined to the bubbler. With a turbo, you will have HHO under pressure... if that ignites...... nice knowing you.

Also, come to think of it, I don't think HHO would work well at all with a turbo. Think about it... you will be subjecting the chamber to a vacuum(or close to it, on the intake side). That's going to pull massive amounts of water vapor.

Bottom line, don't use HHO with a turbo. Also, you need to start your own thread. Hijacking a thread with your own issue isn't nice.

HAH HAAA HAAHA AHAHAH H AHA LMAO, the great phill saying
I'd advise AGAINST using it with any car with a turbo wow so you are saying that all my friends cars in Jamaica will soon blow up? well its been over a year now and still no boom phill. if you dont know how something works dont try to turn people away from it. its so simple phill, check it, the natural aspirated port where you port the HHO (not the pressurized port) but because you dont know it ider dont work or just forget about it right?

typical phill. i have driven 5 turbo cars that i have installed the HHO system in. and i can call out Jamaica to this thread but not to prove mr.know-it-all wrong. keep being mr.know-it-all

[richard_lyew]

richard - why? HHO doesn't lose any magic if you port it in further upstream. Why do you say as close as possible? A few people have said this, but never provide an explaination.

Also, richard, if you hang around for a while, you'll see that I actively try to fight off all the scams and fraud surrounding HHO. It makes me so angry when someone makes false claims. Other people then look down on ME because of the ridiculous claims of others. I sure don't like that. I don't know you, but your claims of 150MPG is just silly. I mean, if you're going to make something up, make it believeable... maybe 50MPG?

oh boy here we go again, phill i always make you answer your own questions. tell me this, do you think that if i should put my HHO output from my system to the front of the air intake it would be the same as porting it say, right at the air and fuel intake valve?

the fact that the HHO is not traveling a long distance through airlines, diluting into the air intake until it finally reaches the intake valve for combustion. which do you think is better?

here is something to look at
http://www.ezpistontool.com/Portals/0/Images/A4piston.jpg
http://www.ezpistontool.com/Portals/0/Images/4-Stroke-Engine.gif


what you are saying is that its the same to port my HHO in front my air filter and to port it right infront the intake valve?. dont skip this one phill, make sure you answer it. also i wonder when i get a few people up to 100%+ gain what will you say then? that we are all liars? anyways dont forget to answer the question.

[Roland Jacques]

oh boy here we go again, phill i always make you answer your own questions. tell me this, do you think that if i should put my HHO output from my system to the front of the air intake it would be the same as porting it say, right at the air and fuel intake valve?

Yes that is what im saying And that is why i asked this question in the first post.

the fact that the HHO is not traveling a long distance through airlines, diluting into the air intake until it finally reaches the intake valve for combustion. which do you think is better?

I said that further up steam is better Because the HHO could mix better for a more even distribution to all cylinders.
What do you mean Diluting? and How is that Bad?


what you are saying is that its the same to port my HHO in front my air filter and to port it right in front the intake valve?. .
Richard,

Your question for Phill is the same question i am asking the first post. Why do you think HHO injected 2" from the combustion chamber is better than 3' from the chamber?

What do you mean diluting? The ratio of HHO to Air is still the same where ever you introduce it. Unless it escapes or__________?

Or if you are not sure Why it works better closer. If you have done some experiments that show it does work better closer. could you give some details of that experiment?

[Mika]

I remember reading that hydrogen is such a small atom that it could pass through metal, that's why it doesn't stay long even in compressed tank.

I think that's one of the main problems why hydrogen cars haven't become more common. Bmw said that in their 7-series hydrogen car loses its fuel in a couple weeks, whether you drive it or not.

[Philldpapill]

Richard, for your own credibility, you might want to provide an explaination here and there, when you make a claim. You can always say "doing such and such results in this and that. I don't know why, but from experience and my data, this seems to be the case". THAT kind of explaination is perfectly acceptable. It opens the discussion up to WHY things are working the way they are, and from there, we can make a theory, test it, and possibly improve upon it.

However, saying something without ANY evidence, is meaningless and just spreads misinformation. Now, as to what Roland asked - WHY do you need to port it closer to the combustion? I figured you thought it had something to do with the "magic" being diluted... Like Roland said, you still have the same concentration of HHO. Besides, once the mixture hits the cylinder, the extreme turbulence is going to do any mixing that didn't occur in the intake lines.


Mika, as for your statement about H2 going through metal - that is right. When you leave H2 in a compressed form in a metal tank, the H2 molecules sort of "slip" through the metal crystal lattice. It's called "Hydrogen Embrittlement" - it makes the metal very brittle, and prone to cracking. That's one of the major drawbacks to using compressed H2 as a fuel in cars, not to mention the safety issue.

Ever noticed that Helium balloons always seem to deflate after a while? It's literally because the He is "leaking" out between the polymer molecules that make up the balloon. He is a little bit bigger than H2, but still about the same size since it's electrons are only in the first valence band.

[Philldpapill]

As for your statement about safety, Richard... I'm not saying it's going to blow up, but I am saying it's dangerous. Just because you play with fire a few times, doesn't mean that you won't ever catch anything on fire later... It just means you haven't yet, and you're a bit of a fool for pushing your luck. You can use a turbo, but it's a lot riskier than NOT using a turbo...

[richard_lyew]

richard - why? HHO doesn't lose any magic if you port it in further upstream. Why do you say as close as possible? A few people have said this, but never provide an explaination.

Also, richard, if you hang around for a while, you'll see that I actively try to fight off all the scams and fraud surrounding HHO. It makes me so angry when someone makes false claims. Other people then look down on ME because of the ridiculous claims of others. I sure don't like that. I don't know you, but your claims of 150MPG is just silly. I mean, if you're going to make something up, make it believeable... maybe 50MPG?

lol phill you must be so mad to have me on the forum because i will tell the truth. you said
HHO doesn't lose any magic if you port it in further upstream. and im here to let people understand for themselves, now everybody please try this, turn on your HHO system and run your HHO out put line to a container of water so it bubbles, now light a flame like say a lighter and hold it about 2 feet above the container, tell the forum if it lite the HHO, then hold it one foot above the container, tell the forum if it lite the HHO, then hold it as close to the bubbles as you can and tell the forum if it lite the HHO. then it will be the forum and all the people who try it word against phill's.

phill i told you im on to you mr.big oil, trying to suppress the people. NOT ON MY WATCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

as long as im here the people will know and nobody can find me to shut me up. NOBODY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!

i hope to see people reply to this post.

[richard_lyew]

Richard,

Your question for Phill is the same question i am asking the first post. Why do you think HHO injected 2" from the combustion chamber is better than 3' from the chamber?

What do you mean diluting? The ratio of HHO to Air is still the same where ever you introduce it. Unless it escapes or__________?

Or if you are not sure Why it works better closer. If you have done some experiments that show it does work better closer. could you give some details of that experiment?

diluting means To make thinner or less concentrated. if your HHO has more time to mix with more air what do you think will happend? a. will it be stronger or more potent? b. will it have the same effect? or c. will it be weaker (less concentrated)?

come on people its very simple. if you don't believe me now just wait until you try it for yourself. and hey phill i don't have to prove nothing to you all i do is let the people prove for themselves. Take that big oil

[Buster]

I can vouch for successfully running a turbo diesel engine with HHO without any problems whatsoever. We had about 32% increase in MPG with about 1lpm HHO input into the airbox, and another time just before the air valve 'gate' ..or whatever it's called.
....Just to clear this one up lads.

[richard_lyew]

I can vouch for successfully running a turbo diesel engine with HHO without any problems whatsoever. We had about 32% increase in MPG with about 1lpm HHO input into the airbox, and another time just before the air valve 'gate' ..or whatever it's called.
....Just to clear this one up lads.

Thank you very much

[Roland Jacques]

now everybody please try this, turn on your HHO system and run your HHO out put line to a container of water so it bubbles, now light a flame like say a lighter and hold it about 2 feet above the container, tell the forum if it lite the HHO, then hold it one foot above the container, tell the forum if it lite the HHO, then hold it as close to the bubbles as you can and tell the forum if it lite the HHO.

i hope to see people reply to this post.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


This might just be the silly-est thing i have ever heard on a forum. I understand we all have our strong subjects and week ones. So for you Richard i think this is your week subject. It cool you still are ahead of a lot of us in other areas. We are talking apples and oranges here in a big way. You are trying to compare a closed system to a open one. We are talking about a intake system, a closed system.

[Roland Jacques]

diluting means To make thinner or less concentrated. if your HHO has more time to mix with more air what do you think will happend? a. will it be stronger or more potent? b. will it have the same effect? or c. will it be weaker (less concentrated)?



I think it would be the same just mixed better with the air. There wont be any more or less H2 molecules or O2 molecules in the combustion chamber ether way.


That said i think there may be benefits to being closer. I'm still not sure if anyone has every tested it and compared both ways.

[Philldpapill]

I still say that injecting further UP stream(further away from valve intake) is better. My reasoning, is that the vortex nature of incoming air causes better mixing and distribution of the H2 among the intake air. When the H2 is more thorougly mixed, it will be better distributed among the gasoline vapors, causing a faster burn - which, btw, I believe was a fair consensus among us that the better MPG was due to a faster and more even burn of the gasoline.

It probably doesn't make much of a difference, but I think(in theory) that injecting closer to the intake results in "pockets" of H2 among the combustion mixture, rather than mixed evenly among the gasoline...


Richard, elaborate MORE on what you mean "less concentrated" is. Let's say that I have a 1 Liter bottle with a little divider in the middle so it isolates two gases. Half the bottle is filled with a gasoline/oxygen mixture, while the other half is HHO. Now, let's say I take that divider out very quickly. Just as I take it out, what is the concentration of HHO of the top part?(100%) What is the concentration of the bottom part?(0%) What is the concentration of the TOTAL volume?(50%).

Now, what if I put a tiny fan in there, and mix the stuff up thoroughly. What is the concentration of the top half of the bottle?(50%) The bottom half?(50%) The Whole Bottle?(50% - the same as before) The point is, just because the gases aren't mixed, doesn't mean the TOTAL concentration is any different. If your cylinder were filled with half gasoline and half HHO like in the first example(seperated and not mixed), do you REALLY think that is a better mixture for combustion? That is what you are implying when you say you should NOT "dilute" the HHO. It's ridiculous, and VERY illogical. In fact, it's contradictory.

[Helz_McFugly]

if your HHO has more time to mix with more air what do you think will happend

More time? are we talking miliseconds from airbox to combustion chamber.
More air? if you inject near the butterfly or right after the air filter, the air is there, there is no other source of air coming in so where is "More air" coming from. if you put it in a vacume intake that, depending on wherer the vacume comes in, it could get more HHO to one cylinder then one thats farther away from the vacuum intake.


now everybody please try this, turn on your HHO system and run your HHO out put line to a container of water so it bubbles, now light a flame like say a lighter and hold it about 2 feet above the container, tell the forum if it lite the HHO, then hold it one foot above the container, tell the forum if it lite the HHO, then hold it as close to the bubbles as you can and tell the forum if it lite the HHO

this is where you really lost all credibility mon. if you light the bubble its pure HHO. after the bubble pops it delutes into the atmosphere very quickly, which is wide open and will not light. take that same jar and place a tube thats the same diameter, say 1", on top of that jar and make the tube 5 feet or 500 feet. drill a hole in the side of it at the base of the tube and stick a good pc fan in it so there is enough air flow in the tube so there no back flow at the end of the tube. NOW at the end of the tube the HHO is going to be the same F/A ratio as it is at the fan. light it at the end and get back with the forum. NO dont do that. becuase it will explode, but see the logic? there is NO MORE AIR after the air box or you have a leak.

to me, the best placement for your HHO input, if you dont have steam or fluid making that far, is right before throttle body, that way it mixes very well in the intake manifold and gets the same amount of HHO to each combustion chamber.

[biggy boy]

I don't know:confused:, everything I have read on this subject suggests it being as close to the motor as possable.

Some say use the vacuum line some say don't, makes it confusing!
Some say using the vacuum line can put a vacuum on the cell and lower the boiling point of the cell. Or could cause the cell fluid to be drawn up into the motor.




P.S.
Cho! coo pon dat bwoy, dat dah mon bwan uh butoo buugoo! Im whan be de controwla all da time.
Sorry Mi Patwa nuh good nuff

[Buster]

I've said before that I personally input into the air box, as it allows any possible overspill to drip down and out the bottom drain hole that the box has.
Now, does all the air which is sucked into the engine get mixed with the fuel, or does some of it just fly out? I don't know, but if it is all mixed with the fuel then the HHO will get used one way or another whether it is inputed at the airbox or the butterfly valve. However, if a lot of the air intake is just kindof used as space filler, I don't know?? it could then be more beneficial to get as much of the HHO as close to the fuel intake and combustion point as possible. (Don't all jump down my neck about this, I'm only questioning what I don't know???)
Anyway, on another note, for those who don't know, HHO is not just the same old HHO whatever. There is a very important difference which has dramatic effects on the power that it produces, namely H- ions as oposed to HH. (spare me if I got the details wrong, but you should know what I mean) I think the H- are normally in limited number and degenerate after a time back into HH, so getting the HHO as close to the combustion as possible with mixing with anything CAN be advantagous, if H- ions is what you have. Also think of the 'Browns Gas' energy increase effect.
Maybe some of you can remember the details better than I have explained it, so that I don't have to look it up to clarify....

So if anyone wants to slam their fist down on the table and say that such and such is so, and anything else is impossible or rediculous, you better put your hard hat on first, 'cos you're going to get knocked down continually.
What the BEEP do we all know in the grand scheme of things anyway!! Let's just see what works and what doesn't and not write ideas off too quickly.

[Roland Jacques]

I've said before that I personally input into the air box, as it allows any possible overspill to drip down and out the bottom drain hole that the box has..

Id make sure you dont get any bubblier fluid in your intake at all. But you have a point



Now, does all the air which is sucked into the engine get mixed with the fuel, or does some of it just fly out? .
Not sure what you mean, fly out?

I don't know, but if it is all mixed with the fuel then the HHO will get used one way or another whether it is inputed at the airbox or the butterfly valve. However, if a lot of the air intake is just kindof used as space filler, I don't know?? it could then be more beneficial to get as much of the HHO as close to the fuel intake and combustion point as possible..
:confused:



(Don't all jump down my neck about this, I'm only questioning what I don't know???)
Anyway, on another note, for those who don't know, HHO is not just the same old HHO whatever. There is a very important difference which has dramatic effects on the power that it produces, namely H- ions as oposed to HH. (spare me if I got the details wrong, but you should know what I mean) I think the H- are normally in limited number and degenerate after a time back into HH, so getting the HHO as close to the combustion as possible with mixing with anything CAN be advantagous, if H- ions is what you have. Also think of the 'Browns Gas' energy increase effect.
Maybe some of you can remember the details better than I have explained it, so that I don't have to look it up to clarify..... yes I've read this before also. but I have never heard anyone truly support this idea.



So if anyone wants to slam their fist down on the table and say that such and such is so, and anything else is impossible or rediculous, you better put your hard hat on first, 'cos you're going to get knocked down continually.
What the BEEP do we all know in the grand scheme of things anyway!! Let's just see what works and what doesn't and not write ideas off too quickly.

I was hoping that some more people that have actually done some comparative testing on this subject would chime in.

[Boltazar]

HHO should be inserted after the MAF sensor or AIT

[Roland Jacques]

HHO should be inserted after the MAF sensor or AIT

Without an explaination of why, this does not mean much.

[Boltazar]

It's volume won't be counted in gas calculations by the comptuer

anybody know why my keyboard won't type te letters I'm hitting i works well in otherforums an programs

[biggy boy]

anybody know why my keyboard won't type te letters I'm hitting i works well in otherforums an programs

Have you been eating over your keyboard LOL bread crumbs!

[Buster]

Here's a question, if anyone can explain....
If the air to fuel ratio is ...like 12:1 , and yet the calculations of air intake which people have said is many cubic feet per minute, then since only a small amount of fuel is injected into the engine, where does all those extra cubic feet of air go??......and if it's not in the air/fuel ratio volume, could it mean that mixing HHO with the full air flow mean that most of it isn't in the air/fuel part that gets combusted?

.....Sorry, not really knowledgeable of engine processes.

[Boltazar]

14.7:1 is stoichametric it all goes in the cylinders and out the exhaust. 15 or 16 to1 woud be great mileage,

[Helz_McFugly]

Buster Im not sure I understand you question but I think maybe youre asking why the ratio is not calculated 14:.005:1 now that HHO is involved (air/HHO/fuel) being that there are 3 factors in the ratio instead of 2. is that anywhere in the ballpark of what youre asking? :confused:

[Roland Jacques]

Buster, I'm not sure what your asking ether, but the answer is 3.

JK, about the answer part.

This may answer your question not sure.
14.7 to 1 is a measurement of weight. So it is pounds of air and fuel.

[biggy boy]

.
14.7 to 1 is a measurement of weight. So it is pounds of air and fuel.

Wow I didn't know it was weight! I assumed it was cubic feet of air and gasoline vapor. Hang around here long enough and you can learn something new. :)

[Philldpapill]

Wow, Roland is right... I looked it up to double check.

However, the density of gasoline vapor and "air" are around the same(gasoline being a bit heavier), so the volume ratio is still around the same. Maybe 20:1 or something, but still...

[Helz_McFugly]

i thought the same thing. like liquid. 1 part vodka 2 parts tonic :p

[Buster]

Wow, by weight, who would have thought?
But if the weight and volume of air and fuel are fairly equal, as Phil says, it still seems like a lot more air is going in than fuel, even a lot more than 14x , so could it be that only some of that air is relevant to the combustion part, and that a lot of the air is just volume which doesn't get near the combustion point....if someone can understand my awkward way of putting things!!?? LOL ....Thanks for your patience lads.

The point I was trying to make (which I really don't know the answer to), is if a lot of the air is not coming into direct contact with the combustion point, then mixing the HHO with all the intake air is going to loose a lot of the potential effect of the HHO!!...there, I said it!!!

Can anyone understand my weird English accent??

[Helz_McFugly]

this is the way I see it:
none of the HHO is going to lose its effect. as far as the air going in being JUST volume. for the most parts thats what alot of it is, the fuel only needs so much 02 to combust but we cant only intake 02 and fuel, if we could the piston would be alot closer to the head and valves at its compression/ignition stroke. but yea the HHO is mixed into the air, being just volume or not, and under compression all the HHO is going to get ignited in that combustion stroke and no effect lost. Im not a M.E. but Ive rebult many a motor and have a pretty good understanfing of them. yet I didnt know the F/A was weight :confused:

[richard_lyew]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


This might just be the silly-est thing i have ever heard on a forum. I understand we all have our strong subjects and week ones. So for you Richard i think this is your week subject. It cool you still are ahead of a lot of us in other areas. We are talking apples and oranges here in a big way. You are trying to compare a closed system to a open one. We are talking about a intake system, a closed system.

No it is not closed, its is open, it is even worst that the open container because air is always adding and at a flow so if you port HHO way up stream don't you think it will get lost in the wind so to speak? but if it is closer to the flame then it will be more concentrated than being mixed in X amount of air every second, the more air added to your HHO out put the weaker it will become and in the air intake line air is constantly being added.

feel free to run a test with a 4"x6' piece of PVC to better understand this. on 1 end of the PVC put a fan extracting air, put a flame about foot behind the fan inside the pipe, port your HHO to the other end of the pipe and then move it closer and closer then share with the forum at which point did the flame lite the HHO best.

like i said, im not here to prove anything because i have already done it, now its your time IF YOU WANT. im not forcing anyone. feel free to ignore all my post. all i ask is for you to learn for yourself.

[Helz_McFugly]

dude, once air goes into the intake/airfilter. there is no more air coming from anywhere else. once its in, its in, its not getting out, theres not more coming in to delute to HHO. the pressure might change from one point to another but the HHO is going to change with it.

[richard_lyew]

I think it would be the same just mixed better with the air. There wont be any more or less H2 molecules or O2 molecules in the combustion chamber ether way.


That said i think there may be benefits to being closer. I'm still not sure if anyone has every tested it and compared both ways.

LOL you said adding more air to HHO you will have the same amount of o2, wow add more o2 but still end up with the same amount of o2?. i hope you understand what you are saying. so adding more h2 will have the same effect then? so instead of people making 10LPM and 20LPM systems why not just stick with a regular 1LPM system then.

you guys will catch on soon, im just giving it time.

[Buster]

I don't think we should be arguing over semantics lads. Let's try and move on where we can with all this, can we?

Anyway, I thought I'd repost this comment on the 'steam thread' here as I think it may be relevant to this discussion as well:

Buster:
This is very interesting!
I thought the high MPG was just a fill-up inaccuracy, but now I'm starting to wonder.
I watched a youtube video of some guys who run their HHO through a high temperature vacuum to get more monatomic hydrogen, which is supposedly far more effective at increasing MPG. Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfBKlaWOAXc

I wouldn't want to try it personally, but the principle behind it could explain what we MAY be experiencing with the 'no bubbler' and hot HHO effect.

It could also go some way to explain why having the HHO intake as close to combustion point as possible could be advantageous.

[richard_lyew]

I still say that injecting further UP stream(further away from valve intake) is better. My reasoning, is that the vortex nature of incoming air causes better mixing and distribution of the H2 among the intake air. When the H2 is more thorougly mixed, it will be better distributed among the gasoline vapors, causing a faster burn - which, btw, I believe was a fair consensus among us that the better MPG was due to a faster and more even burn of the gasoline.

It probably doesn't make much of a difference, but I think(in theory) that injecting closer to the intake results in "pockets" of H2 among the combustion mixture, rather than mixed evenly among the gasoline...


Richard, elaborate MORE on what you mean "less concentrated" is. Let's say that I have a 1 Liter bottle with a little divider in the middle so it isolates two gases. Half the bottle is filled with a gasoline/oxygen mixture, while the other half is HHO. Now, let's say I take that divider out very quickly. Just as I take it out, what is the concentration of HHO of the top part?(100%) What is the concentration of the bottom part?(0%) What is the concentration of the TOTAL volume?(50%).

Now, what if I put a tiny fan in there, and mix the stuff up thoroughly. What is the concentration of the top half of the bottle?(50%) The bottom half?(50%) The Whole Bottle?(50% - the same as before) The point is, just because the gases aren't mixed, doesn't mean the TOTAL concentration is any different. If your cylinder were filled with half gasoline and half HHO like in the first example(seperated and not mixed), do you REALLY think that is a better mixture for combustion? That is what you are implying when you say you should NOT "dilute" the HHO. It's ridiculous, and VERY illogical. In fact, it's contradictory.

wait wait wait, when i said up stream i meant closer to the engine. sorry if i didn't make that clear.

phill why would you want to mix the HHO more? the HHO is good to go as is, mixing it more only weakens it.

the last part of the question answer alot of what you are asking me. mixing the HHO in a closed environment like a closed combustion chamber is no problem because it is closed unlike the air intake that's constantly adding air, this is why i said port your HHO as close to the combustion chamber as you can because that is the only place it stop losing its power. its not being faced with air constantly being added to it.

ok phill i know you are not going to answer this but whatever, remember im not trying to prove nothing at all to nobody at all, i just want people to learn.

here is the question of the topic and a big part of my system. if 10LPM of air is added to 1LPM of HHO is it the same as 0.5LPM of air being added to the same 1LPM of HHO?.

come on people put it closer to the flame and post results, tell the forum if its weaker, the same or less. i just want everybody to get up to speed that's all.

[Philldpapill]

No, Richard, it's a "dynamic closed System" meaning the system can be broken up into infinitely small "chunks" along the air intake system. At any given point, the system is CLOSED. Once air enters the intake, the system is then confined to the mix of HHO and air. NO more air is being added.

You seem to be looking at the system as static, as if you are adding more air to the same amount of HHO, which is absolutely wrong - again.



And Richard, STFU with your condescending attitude. "you guys will catch on soon, i'm just giving it time". Right, because you are the one that understands current density, thermodynamic systems, mass vs. volume, why OU is BS, and the list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Right.

Cut it out, man.

[Helz_McFugly]

Im with Buster.

If you are producing 10 t0 20 LPM of HHO. there not going ot be much difference if you stick it in the air box or directly into the combustion chamber. if there is any loss it would be to small to notice. 20 LPM is ALOT. take a 1/4 hose and blow as hard as you can through it. thats what 20LPM looks like.
the topic is worth debating but not at 20LPM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1FYGCSDekE

[richard_lyew]

I don't know:confused:, everything I have read on this subject suggests it being as close to the motor as possable.

Some say use the vacuum line some say don't, makes it confusing!
Some say using the vacuum line can put a vacuum on the cell and lower the boiling point of the cell. Or could cause the cell fluid to be drawn up into the motor.




P.S.
Cho! coo pon dat bwoy, dat dah mon bwan uh butoo buugoo! Im whan be de controwla all da time.
Sorry Mi Patwa nuh good nuff

yes im glad you bring this up. the first time i connect a bubbler to my vacuum it sucks the container in and break it, so please this is why in my first posts i said make sure your system can handle negative pressure (vacuum). i had to get a stronger bubbler,also note my bubbler has a mixture return line,that way the mixture cant raise. you guys are getting there with every post.

and yea yute yu patwa off bad star jah know, mi nat even know wea yu dea sey right now, mi dea ya a crack up.

[Buster]

OK, if after the precautions are taken to cope with negative pressure, where and how exactly could I connect into the vacuum for best results? as I'm with you on this one.

Also, I like the switching relay idea, and am going to check that out at in the near future.
Personally, the HHO storage idea would be more of a problem for us due to regulations here in the UK, but it's all about doing what works & fit's with the circumstances isn't it, really.

The extra battery part is something which we have already considered, and could be a useful option.

[richard_lyew]

I've said before that I personally input into the air box, as it allows any possible overspill to drip down and out the bottom drain hole that the box has.
Now, does all the air which is sucked into the engine get mixed with the fuel, or does some of it just fly out? I don't know, but if it is all mixed with the fuel then the HHO will get used one way or another whether it is inputed at the airbox or the butterfly valve. However, if a lot of the air intake is just kindof used as space filler, I don't know?? it could then be more beneficial to get as much of the HHO as close to the fuel intake and combustion point as possible. (Don't all jump down my neck about this, I'm only questioning what I don't know???)
Anyway, on another note, for those who don't know, HHO is not just the same old HHO whatever. There is a very important difference which has dramatic effects on the power that it produces, namely H- ions as oposed to HH. (spare me if I got the details wrong, but you should know what I mean) I think the H- are normally in limited number and degenerate after a time back into HH, so getting the HHO as close to the combustion as possible with mixing with anything CAN be advantagous, if H- ions is what you have. Also think of the 'Browns Gas' energy increase effect.
Maybe some of you can remember the details better than I have explained it, so that I don't have to look it up to clarify....

So if anyone wants to slam their fist down on the table and say that such and such is so, and anything else is impossible or rediculous, you better put your hard hat on first, 'cos you're going to get knocked down continually.
What the BEEP do we all know in the grand scheme of things anyway!! Let's just see what works and what doesn't and not write ideas off too quickly.

1. why not have a bubbler that does this for you? drip back to the system.

2. yes the air that gets sucked into the engine goes to the combustion chamber and mix with the gas to burn that is why everybody is porting their HHO where the air goes.

3. yes it will all get used but the question is how concentrated? eg. if it didnt matter then i would just hose it in front my car's bumper or under the hood and let the air intake suck it up.

4. wow you said you didnt know all about this stuff but yet you say
it could then be more beneficial to get as much of the HHO as close to the fuel intake and combustion point as possible mmmmmmmm and all the top brains here think it wouldn't make a difference.

5.
(Don't all jump down my neck about this, I'm only questioning what I don't know???) no not all will, only 1. LOL. and if you dont know just ask me i wont treat you like some other people on here.

6. HAHAHAHAH wow somebody said it. why not give it a try and see. and not be stuck on the book like a certain person, and just say F it, it cant work and will never!!!

if i was like that certain person i wouldn't try a dam thing and wouldn't know so much.

Buster i like your style, willing to learn.

[richard_lyew]

It's volume won't be counted in gas calculations by the comptuer

anybody know why my keyboard won't type te letters I'm hitting i works well in otherforums an programs

another very valid point but i think people and the world already found out about the MAF sensor and if you port more o or o2 in front of it, it will tell the car's ECU that the a/f ratio is off and the car's ECU will think the car is stalling and pump more gasoline to the engine.

[biggy boy]

and yea yute yu patwa off bad star jah know, mi nat even know wea yu dea sey right now, mi dea ya a crack up.

LOL YA! I'll translate that for you.

Disgusted. Born Vulgar, low class. wants the be in control all the time. :)

[Helz_McFugly]

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/indifferent/indifferent0022.gifyou know you could end all this by just making a shot video, or a couple pictures of the things youre try to get people to build. its that simple.
an idea being debated and a picture of that idea in real life are the same thing. just do it. frick http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0177.gif I dont understand why you dont? I dont need another lame excuse as to why you wont. rhetorical

[richard_lyew]

I don't think we should be arguing over semantics lads. Let's try and move on where we can with all this, can we?

Anyway, I thought I'd repost this comment on the 'steam thread' here as I think it may be relevant to this discussion as well:

Buster:
This is very interesting!
I thought the high MPG was just a fill-up inaccuracy, but now I'm starting to wonder.
I watched a youtube video of some guys who run their HHO through a high temperature vacuum to get more monatomic hydrogen, which is supposedly far more effective at increasing MPG. Here is the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfBKlaWOAXc

I wouldn't want to try it personally, but the principle behind it could explain what we MAY be experiencing with the 'no bubbler' and hot HHO effect.

It could also go some way to explain why having the HHO intake as close to combustion point as possible could be advantageous.

THANKS FOR THE VIDEO!!!!!!!!! this is right up my ally because im already using a very very good vacuum system. but dam i didnt know about the photon method. thank you very very much i will do research more on this!!!!!.

[Helz_McFugly]

yea at least the guy made a video to show people how it works. :D

[richard_lyew]

No, Richard, it's a "dynamic closed System" meaning the system can be broken up into infinitely small "chunks" along the air intake system. At any given point, the system is CLOSED. Once air enters the intake, the system is then confined to the mix of HHO and air. NO more air is being added.

You seem to be looking at the system as static, as if you are adding more air to the same amount of HHO, which is absolutely wrong - again.



And Richard, STFU with your condescending attitude. "you guys will catch on soon, i'm just giving it time". Right, because you are the one that understands current density, thermodynamic systems, mass vs. volume, why OU is BS, and the list goes on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on. Right.

Cut it out, man.

phill you sound like ur about to have a heart attack LOL :D . take a chill pill phill. when people test what ive post and then start posting their results then we will see.
take a chilly pilly philly.

[Buster]

"yea at least the guy made a video to show people how it works. "

-LOL!!!

They also have a type of coil charging method, but I don't know how well this compares. My tube just melted when I tried it. I'm presently experimenting with some other similar methods, which have shown some promise. I'll let you know if I get any verifiable results.

Hey, what an awesome presenting voice he's got, don't you think?
I would do some demo videos if I could speak like that!

[Helz_McFugly]

im assuming noones going to test it untill you tell the truth. admit its ONLY an idea or show a picture or video that gives you SOME credibility. as of now its only an Idea. you say you have built it and its on your car. yet no proof. If it is just an idae, thats cool man, just come clean. its like your using this forum to try to get people to run tests to prove your "Idea" works.

[richard_lyew]

OK, if after the precautions are taken to cope with negative pressure, where and how exactly could I connect into the vacuum for best results? as I'm with you on this one.

Also, I like the switching relay idea, and am going to check that out at in the near future.
Personally, the HHO storage idea would be more of a problem for us due to regulations here in the UK, but it's all about doing what works & fit's with the circumstances isn't it, really.

The extra battery part is something which we have already considered, and could be a useful option.

yeah HHO storage is kind of a touchy subject right now so i will just continue with all the other parts first. in one of my earlier post i showed where i was porting my HHO. http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=5328

the extra batteries are acting like an AMP buffer, i post earlier also that some people use capacitors but batteries are cheaper to me. this guy uses Capacitors http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1FYGCSDekE
the batteries gives the same effect but cheaper.

[richard_lyew]

LOL YA! I'll translate that for you.

Disgusted. Born Vulgar, low class. wants the be in control all the time. :)

mahsa mi nu dea ya fi tracc laka gal mi jus a share wea mi a du wid who wa learn. mr.mention caan gu suck out eh muma. LOL

[Philldpapill]

Or, just glaze over Helz's comment.

Also, Richard, "Amp" is not an acronym. It's short for Ampere. Stop capitalizing it. It bugs me, personally, but that isn't as important as the lies you tell.

[Helz_McFugly]

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/sign/sign0019.gif

[richard_lyew]

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/indifferent/indifferent0022.gifyou know you could end all this by just making a shot video, or a couple pictures of the things youre try to get people to build. its that simple.
an idea being debated and a picture of that idea in real life are the same thing. just do it. frick http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/mad/mad0177.gif I dont understand why you dont? I dont need another lame excuse as to why you wont. rhetorical

ok ok, i will do a video with the 4"x6' PVC,air flowing through it with the flame on 1 end and HHO being ported from different points. is that ok? because hells no im not pulling down my system to make a video and if im going to do a video of my entire system i would to video under the car like say on a ramp. and alot of my system cant be shown on the internet as yet. forget about my system i will try to do the video about porting the HHO.

[Helz_McFugly]

I dont understand why you dont? I dont need another lame excuse as to why you wont. rhetorical
http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/animated/anim_63.gif

LAAAAAAAAAME

[richard_lyew]

yea at least the guy made a video to show people how it works. :D

i know you want a video man and if it was my old system i would but right now i cant show my personal current system. tell you what, i have a build coming up in about a month, this will be my first build in a foreign country and i will take pics and videos for the forum.

[richard_lyew]

im assuming noones going to test it untill you tell the truth. admit its ONLY an idea or show a picture or video that gives you SOME credibility. as of now its only an Idea. you say you have built it and its on your car. yet no proof. If it is just an idae, thats cool man, just come clean. its like your using this forum to try to get people to run tests to prove your "Idea" works.

LOL i told you from day 1 man, im not going to put my system on the net yet. and i an not asking nobody to test nothing man, all the parts to my system works. some people will try and some wont but i cant save everybody man just the willing ones. :D

[Helz_McFugly]

Originally Posted by richard_lyew run a test with a 4"x6' piece of PVC to better understand this. on 1 end of the PVC put a fan extracting air, put a flame about foot behind the fan inside the pipe, port your HHO to the other end of the pipe and then move it closer and closer then share with the forum at which point did the flame lite the HHO best

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0022.gif


Originally Posted by richard_lyew and i an not asking nobody to test nothing man

[richard_lyew]

Or, just glaze over Helz's comment.

Also, Richard, "Amp" is not an acronym. It's short for Ampere. Stop capitalizing it. It bugs me, personally, but that isn't as important as the lies you tell.

personal phill, i dont care about your feelings because you dont care about others eider so i will continue to type it any which way i like as long as people know what i mean. i will type amps AMPs Amps AMP's LOL amp's AmPs LOL you ganna like this one aMP's

cuss phill, tear your hair out LOL Amps will always be AMPS to me. or which ever else way i feel to type it. :D

[Helz_McFugly]

this was one of your first posts Richard


, please read my very first post i clearly stated that i wasn't here to sell anything or argue with anybody about anything. simply test what i say and prove it wrong sir.

[richard_lyew]

http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/party/party0022.gif

LOL when they do it they will know for themselves.

[Mika]

I'd think richard has some point. It might have some advantages putting hho as close to combustion chamber as possible, because hho is a completely stoichiometric "fuel". Maybe it works the best way when it's least mixed with air.

Anyway, my suggestion is if you have hot wire/film maf, don't EVER place your hho line right before maf. There's a glowing wire which measures the amount of incoming air, and it will most likely get some damage when hho is passing through it. So don't make the same mistake I did, it cost me almost 200 euros...

[richard_lyew]

I'd think richard has some point. It might have some advantages putting hho as close to combustion chamber as possible, because hho is a completely stoichiometric "fuel". Maybe it works the best way when it's least mixed with air.

Anyway, my suggestion is if you have hot wire/film maf, don't EVER place your hho line right before maf. There's a glowing wire which measures the amount of incoming air, and it will most likely get some damage when hho is passing through it. So don't make the same mistake I did, it cost me almost 200 euros...

yes it does work better when it is mixed with less air that's why some people have to hold a flame so close to their bubbles when lighting them. if it didnt lose any power when mixed with more air, then you could just light any of the air around a running generator and it would still be like lighting it right next to the bubbles.

the MAF sensor thing i didn't bother to touch on because alot of people knew about that already, plus i post that you should try to port your HHO as close to the combustion chamber as possible.

simply put, the closer to the flame the stronger the hho will burn.

[Helz_McFugly]

So don't make the same mistake I did, it cost me almost 200 euros
Yikes. I have mine right at the mouth of my throttle body, after my MAF. I didnt know it would damage it. Im glad I didnt make that mistake. you might want to make that info a sticky or its own thread because alot are puting it before the MAF.

[richard_lyew]

ok so now ur going to move it anyways why not connect it to the vacuum?

[Helz_McFugly]

plan on it. as I stated on the other thread.

[Boltazar]

I dont think putting the HHO inlet to a vacume line is correct either. I may be wrong here but dosen't the vacume decrease as the engine speed increases. This would bring less HHO into the engine at higher RPM, that's when U want more HHO. comments???

[Boltazar]

Helz time for another avatar got a cat

[biggy boy]

I dont think putting the HHO inlet to a vacume line is correct either. I may be wrong here but dosen't the vacume decrease as the engine speed increases. This would bring less HHO into the engine at higher RPM, that's when U want more HHO. comments???

Yes that is my understanding too, as the throttle butterfly/valve is opened the vacuum drops.

[Helz_McFugly]

I dont think putting the HHO inlet to a vacume line is correct either. I may be wrong here but dosen't the vacume decrease as the engine speed increases. This would bring less HHO into the engine at higher RPM, that's when U want more HHO. comments???

you know I was thinking the same thing so I ran a crude test before i left work. I went to my car and had a friend sit in the car. I unplugged a large vacuum hose and covered it with my finger. I had him rev it to 2000 rpms, no change i could tell, 3000 rpms, a little change, but I wasnt able to messure the vacuum in the intake along side the vacume but im pretty sure it wasnt as high as in the vacuum system. I would need two vacuum guages to run a good test like that. but I had heard the same thing.

[Roland Jacques]

you know I was thinking the same thing so I ran a crude test before i left work. I went to my car and had a friend sit in the car. I unplugged a large vacuum hose and covered it with my finger. I had him rev it to 2000 rpms, no change i could tell, 3000 rpms, a little change, but I wasnt able to messure the vacuum in the intake along side the vacume but im pretty sure it wasnt as high as in the vacuum system. I would need two vacuum guages to run a good test like that. but I had heard the same thing.

If you dont have gauges, you can use a clear hose and a container of water to measure with. (For low negative pressure readings.) Compare how far it pull the water up the tube. 27.68" above the water line is 1 PSI of vacuum/negative pressure, or about 2" of mercury.

[Roland Jacques]

I dont think putting the HHO inlet to a vacume line is correct either. I may be wrong here but dosen't the vacume decrease as the engine speed increases. This would bring less HHO into the engine at higher RPM, that's when U want more HHO. comments???

True, unless you have a carbureted engine

[Roland Jacques]

double post Ooops again computor issues

[Roland Jacques]

double post Ooops

[Roland Jacques]

yes it does work better when it is mixed with less air that's why some people have to hold a flame so close to their bubbles when lighting them. if it didnt lose any power when mixed with more air, then you could just light any of the air around a running generator and it would still be like lighting it right next to the bubbles.


the MAF sensor thing i didn't bother to touch on because alot of people knew about that already, plus i post that you should try to port your HHO as close to the combustion chamber as possible.

simply put, the closer to the flame the stronger the hho will burn.

It is a closed system. It can not get diluted, it can be more or less mixed , but the ratio will be the same.

Example intake air at idle, 1000LPM air. HHO delivery 10LPM. That is 100 to 1 ratio. in a closed system the ratio will stay the same.


I understand if you think that keeping the gas separate may be better for some reason ( I dont necessarily agree with that) but as long as the ratios are the same it is not more diluted

[Roland Jacques]

I'd think richard has some point. It might have some advantages putting hho as close to combustion chamber as possible, because hho is a completely stoichiometric "fuel". Maybe it works the best way when it's least mixed with air.



Possably, that is why im asking for results from folks who may have tested it both ways.

I dont no if you remember Lt fisher with his 1/2 ton pick up. He claimed 70MPG ,one thing he said he did was inject HHO right in front of each intake port (carburated engine, i think 1970 or so) manifold drilled right before the heads. (those had higher vaccume at higher RPM acept on acceleration)


Anyway, my suggestion is if you have hot wire/film maf, don't EVER place your hho line right before maf. There's a glowing wire which measures the amount of incoming air, and it will most likely get some damage when hho is passing through it. So don't make the same mistake I did, it cost me almost 200 euros...
good point

[richard_lyew]

LOL oh my god this guy said "if you add more air to your HHO you will dilute it" Hahahaha hahaha ahahha but when i said it phill was like "it will not lose any magic" LOL my god all i can do is just sit back and watch the show LOL :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMTygxF4Xqs&feature=related

[Roland Jacques]

LOL oh my god this guy said "if you add more air to your HHO you will dilute it" Hahahaha hahaha ahahha but when i said it phill was like "it will not lose any magic" LOL my god all i can do is just sit back and watch the show LOL :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMTygxF4Xqs&feature=related

The guy in the video was talking about running straight HHO so yes there is a major benefit to not diluting the HHO. We where talking about HHO as boosting (unrestricted air intake). Apples and Oranges.

That aside,
WOW, I have to say that video (and the others from that guy) is a real eye opener for me. Idling a 1 litter engine with less than 8 LPM. The propane/LP gas adapters and regulator really gets the old brain working on possibilities. Great link!!!!

[Helz_McFugly]

The guy in the video was talking about running straight HHO so yes there is a major benefit to not diluting the HHO. We where talking about HHO as boosting (unrestricted air intake). Apples and Oranges.

That aside,
WOW, I have to say that video (and the others from that guy) is a real eye opener for me. Idling a 1 litter engine with less than 8 LPM. The propane/LP gas adapters and regulator really gets the old brain working on possibilities. Great link!!!!

never though about sticking a power generator in the back of my lil 1983 toyota p/u truck and powering a HHO generator to run the truck on. hmmm
still has nothing to do with boosting though. apples and oranges. yep
Im really starting to hate this smiley -----> :D

[richard_lyew]

The guy in the video was talking about running straight HHO so yes there is a major benefit to not diluting the HHO. We where talking about HHO as boosting (unrestricted air intake). Apples and Oranges.

That aside,
WOW, I have to say that video (and the others from that guy) is a real eye opener for me. Idling a 1 litter engine with less than 8 LPM. The propane/LP gas adapters and regulator really gets the old brain working on possibilities. Great link!!!!

i told you if you have a good regulator you can do this, also i always want to get as close as i can to the combustion chamber so im going to drill my cylinder head (where it is safe of course) to install injection points with flashback restrictions at each port, and i have been looking into how my steam machine is affecting the HHO in the combustion chamber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIx5wmOaWls

[richard_lyew]

never though about sticking a power generator in the back of my lil 1983 toyota p/u truck and powering a HHO generator to run the truck on. hmmm
still has nothing to do with boosting though. apples and oranges. yep
Im really starting to hate this smiley -----> :D

sorry everybody, i didnt know the topic of the thread had change, i didnt read all of it before i made the post. sorry everybody. :D :D :D

[Helz_McFugly]

i told you if you have a good regulator you can do this, also i always want to get as close as i can to the combustion chamber so im going to drill my cylinder head (where it is safe of course) to install injection points with flashback restrictions at each port, and i have been looking into how my steam machine is affecting the HHO in the combustion chamber http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIx5wmOaWls
yea that video pretty much explains everything. And the website they advertise is just the icing on the cake.

[Philldpapill]

I detect a hint of sarcasm coming from the man in the filter mask?

[biggy boy]

I detect a hint of sarcasm coming from the man in the filter mask?

What helz being sarcastic?
Come on Phil that would never happen!:p
He's too nice of a person for that;)

[Helz_McFugly]

What helz being sarcastic?
Come on Phil that would never happen!
He's too nice of a person for that
my pimp hand dont limp.

sinse Ive had my system hooked up to vacuum rathen then 3 inches upstream on the other side of the throttle body, Ive seen NO difference in my MPG. BUT it does do something different to my system. when Im at Idle it bubbles normal. If I rev the engine, to say 2500 rpms, all bubbling stops for a couple seconds, then bubbles ALOT for a second like it gulping it all in once the rpms have stayed the same for a couple seconds. Also if I let the rpm's go back down, to say 800 rpms, it bubbles violently then levels out. SO any time rpms go up it stops bubbling in both bubblers, when they are dropping back down it vacuumes the hell out of the system, GULPING, untill its stable again. so while Im accelerating its like there no HHO going to the engine because its stopped bubbling. then when my rpm are dropping back down its GULPING all that HHO in at once.
So what im thinging about doinf is T'ing off the line right before where it goes into the vacuum line and running a line over to where I had it before on the other side of the throttle body. on each line Im going to put a check valve on the line so that which ever one has the liest vacuum is cut off while the other is pulling HHO.

I cant find small check valves anywhere, anyone khow where to get good ones for what we are doing. I know I can order them but the only ones i can find are the little ones for small vacuum lines at autoparts stores and huge ones, which is what Im sing now, at hardware stores.

this is the check valve between my 1st bubbler/refill tank and 2nd bubbler so it doesnt suck the clean water into the e-lyte bubbler/refill tank when I shut the system off.

http://txholeyrocks.com/catalog/images/catalog_images/checkValve.jpg

[Buster]

Heltz, I've been giving this some thought as I'm testing some things out. Will let you know later when I have some results/conclusions in the weeks to follow.

In the meantime, I think the close proximity intake point will only make a difference if you have steam in your HHO gas mix. I think the steam is the one thing which is really loosing it's effectiveness by mixing with all the air at the conventional intake point by condensing. In your very efficient bubbler system there is likely no steam left to get to the engine, so you aren't getting the benefit from the closer injection point. The only way I can see for you to get the benefit of the steam would be to drop the bubbler and just have the scrubber??? which may have some risks which you wouldn't want to take.

.....Just a suggestion at the moment based on some research, which may prove to be wrong, so don't take it as gospel.

[biggy boy]

Helz you will have the highest vacuum at idle when your intake valve (flap) is close to closed. As you open up the intake flap you loose vacuum.
you may be seeing an effect of what happens to the fluid in your bubbler under vacuum.The vacuum causes the fluid to bubble more. A vacuum also lowers the boiling point of a liquid quite a bit!!


Glen

[Helz_McFugly]

yea I know why it does what it does, i guess the point I was trying to make is that when its not under as much vacuum, when its not bubbling and the negitive pressure is catching back up, is there still HHO going into the engine?

I would so no. being that when its bubbling under negitive pressure its delivering hho, but when the pressure is going back up to atmosphere and theres no bubling going on (when I up the RPM and the butterfly opens and I need it the most), its not pushing any HHO into the engine. Its actually pulling air from the engine back into HHO line twards the scrubber. thats why I want to put it back on the other side of the throttle body, that way I know its getting HHO.

maybe after I get the larger system making 5LPM ill try the vacuum again. but im going back to the low vacuum side.

[Roland Jacques]

my pimp hand dont limp.

sinse Ive had my system hooked up to vacuum rathen then 3 inches upstream on the other side of the throttle body, Ive seen NO difference in my MPG. BUT it does do something different to my system. when Im at Idle it bubbles normal. If I rev the engine, to say 2500 rpms, all bubbling stops for a couple seconds, then bubbles ALOT for a second like it gulping it all in once the rpms have stayed the same for a couple seconds. Also if I let the rpm's go back down, to say 800 rpms, it bubbles violently then levels out. SO any time rpms go up it stops bubbling in both bubblers, when they are dropping back down it vacuumes the hell out of the system, GULPING, untill its stable again. so while Im accelerating its like there no HHO going to the engine because its stopped bubbling. then when my rpm are dropping back down its GULPING all that HHO in at once.
So what im thinging about doinf is T'ing off the line right before where it goes into the vacuum line and running a line over to where I had it before on the other side of the throttle body. on each line Im going to put a check valve on the line so that which ever one has the liest vacuum is cut off while the other is pulling HHO.

I cant find small check valves anywhere, anyone khow where to get good ones for what we are doing. I know I can order them but the only ones i can find are the little ones for small vacuum lines at autoparts stores and huge ones, which is what Im sing now, at hardware stores.

this is the check valve between my 1st bubbler/refill tank and 2nd bubbler so it doesnt suck the clean water into the e-lyte bubbler/refill tank when I shut the system off.





Yeah the vacuum side works opposite of what you'd want for delivering your HHO.

I dont think that check valves arrangement the way you described is going to help anything. The before throttle body "vacuum" will never be higher than the after TB "vacuum" so it wont change the way your bubble & gases are responding.
I hear that some use crankcase pressure somehow, I never really tried to understand what they are doing with it.

One way I can think of, to even out the distribution of your HHO in a Fuel Injected car after the TB, would be to have your system pressurized. It still would behave the same way, but the amount it effects would decrease a lot.

Example, A 30 psi pressurized system sees a vacuum change of 3 Ins of mercury, that's only 1.5 psi difference, the delivery amount should only change buy about 5%.
But a system at atmospheric pressure H HO system sees 1.5 psi difference you see what happens.

[Roland Jacques]

OH NO, i think i just told you to "buffer"!

[Helz_McFugly]

Roland I think we posted at teh same time. yea after I though about it the check valve thing wouldnt work. but it works for www.water4gas.com,, lol

[biggy boy]

OH NO, i think i just told you to "buffer"!

Ummm.... Roland you forgot the Green smiley face!!! after the word "buffer"

:D

[Helz_McFugly]

OH NO, i think i just told you to "buffer"!
slap yourself

[biggy boy]

Roland I think we posted at teh same time. yea after I though about it the check valve thing wouldnt work. but it works for www.water4gas.com,, lol

How are you using the check valve? I thought you had it between the first and second bubbler?
That would work to keep the clean water from being sucked back into the first bubbler when you shut down and the first bubbler cools and trys to suck back from the second bubbler.
That's how I have mine setup. check valve between the first and second.

[Helz_McFugly]

yea I do, but I was thinking about Ting near where it goes into the vacuum and having 2 check valves, one on the vacuum and one on the other side of the throttle but it wont work. so scrapped idea there.

[HurstOlds]

here is the question of the topic and a big part of my system. if 10LPM of air is added to 1LPM of HHO is it the same as 0.5LPM of air being added to the same 1LPM of HHO?.

come on people put it closer to the flame and post results, tell the forum if its weaker, the same or less. i just want everybody to get up to speed that's all.

What is this, 1979? I don't understand why this is a hard concept. What would happen if instead of HHO, you put fuel in at the air filter (or behind the MAF)? Hmm....we used to do that with carburetors.

Look at modern fuel injection, why do you think they inject it closer to the cylinders, or directly into the cylinders? Do you think fuel injection uses less fuel or more fuel than a carb?

I'm not necessarily saying that injecting the HHO into your engine (with the way your HHO systems are set up) via a vacuum line is the best idea.....but did you notice that your fuel system is pressurized?
:D

[Helz_McFugly]

Look at modern fuel injection, why do you think they inject it closer to the cylinders
because you can control how much fuel each chamber gets more precisely, therefor increasing efficiency, and responce time.
fuel injection and a carbaration has nothing to do with the a/f being deluted.


I'm not necessarily saying that injecting the HHO into your engine (with the way your HHO systems are set up) via a vacuum line is the best idea.....but did you notice that your fuel system is pressurized?
:confused:
unless your system can pump out XLPM (X = max air the vacuum can suck in), its not going to be pressurized, its not going to be able to keep up with the negitive pressure of say, the vacuum line on your break master cylinder, which is where he had it. when you open up that throttle body, vacuum drops and your negitively charged system now has to catch up so theres nothing going in there, it might even be pulling air out, for the ammount of time it takes for it to do so.

His is making 20LPM of HHO/steam. divide that by 4, because its going into 4 chambers if it wants to or not. 5LPM per chamber. Coming from a vacuume why would it be less deluted with air then if it came in right before the throttle body? the HHO is being put into the same amount of air there, as it would if it were put in at the vacuum line. its not atomized liquid like gasoline and its not going to stick to anything or bond back together with its self like gasoline would.

this "puting it closer to the flame" stuff has nothing to do with how it works in an engine. UNLESS H2 mol.s can recombine to some other mol. in that short amount of time from where its introduced into the engine untill it gets to the chamber. I dont think so. and that would be the only benifit of putting it closer is if that were the case. but im almost sure it doesnt because I have my system in my truck and it has to travel 12 feet through a hose to get to the engine and Ive bubbled it in water up there at the end of the hose and put a flame to it and it still popped just as loud as it would have if it were in a 4" tube, Im sure it would have bonded back to an 02 mole in 12 feet of hose dont ya think? AND He is storing HHO, if it were going to bond back or lose its potency it would definitely do it in there. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/evilgrin/evilgrin0023.gif

[HurstOlds]

because you can control how much fuel each chamber gets more precisely, therefor increasing efficiency, and responce time.
fuel injection and a carbaration has nothing to do with the a/f being deluted.



ok, so are you saying that injecting directly into a cylinder is more efficient? On the same engine, both systems 'properly' tuned, do you think a carbed engine would use more or less gas than the same engine with a fuel injection setup? Not talking about HHO, just regular gas.



unless your system can pump out XLPM (X = max air the vacuum can suck in), its not going to be pressurized, its not going to be able to keep up with the negitive pressure of say, the vacuum line on your break master cylinder, which is where he had it. when you open up that throttle body, vacuum drops and your negitively charged system now has to catch up so theres nothing going in there, it might even be pulling air out, for the ammount of time it takes for it to do so.

I agree with this. It sounds like low LPM HHO generators are a waste of time, or just implemented into the ICE wrong.

[HurstOlds]

this "puting it closer to the flame" stuff has nothing to do with how it works in an engine. UNLESS H2 mol.s can recombine to some other mol. in that short amount of time from where its introduced into the engine untill it gets to the chamber. I dont think so. and that would be the only benifit of putting it closer is if that were the case. but im almost sure it doesnt because I have my system in my truck and it has to travel 12 feet through a hose to get to the engine and Ive bubbled it in water up there at the end of the hose and put a flame to it and it still popped just as loud as it would have if it were in a 4" tube, Im sure it would have bonded back to an 02 mole in 12 feet of hose dont ya think? AND He is storing HHO, if it were going to bond back or lose its potency it would definitely do it in there. http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/evilgrin/evilgrin0023.gif

You are not adding any additional air to the HHO in this test. If you were trying to light the bubbles 6 feet from the bubbler, that relates to what he was explaining. But you are lighting the bubbles directly on top of the bubbler.

Usually when a gas is put into a larger container it dilutes for lack of a better term. If you add gas to a large container and then blow air into it, it dilutes it even more. :confused:

How much volume does a engine cylinder have? How much volume does your air intake piping, throttle body, intake manifold and cylinder have combined?

It sounds like you are not feeding enough HHO for your engine's demands, for where you are inserting the HHO into your engine.

[Roland Jacques]

You are not adding any additional air to the HHO in this test. If you were trying to light the bubbles 6 feet from the bubbler, that relates to what he was explaining. But you are lighting the bubbles directly on top of the bubbler.

Usually when a gas is put into a larger container it dilutes for lack of a better term. If you add gas to a large container and then blow air into it, it dilutes it even more. :confused:

How much volume does a engine cylinder have? How much volume does your air intake piping, throttle body, intake manifold and cylinder have combined?

It sounds like you are not feeding enough HHO for your engine's demands, for where you are inserting the HHO into your engine.

Are you Richard using a different name? never mind.

Your example is flawed. The bubbles you speak of is in the atmosphere an OPEN system (open to the atmosphere). The intake system is a CLOSED system (Closed to the atmosphere)

Once your gases, AIR and HHO, enter the intake system that's it, it is a closed system after that point. and remanes closed until it exit back into the atmosphere. No more of ether gases enters or Exits the intake system.

So if 100 LPM of air goes in, and 1 LPM of HHO gas, goes in, that makes it 100 to 1 ratio.
It stays 100:1 ratio until it exits.
If your intake system was 100 feet long air the air came in on one end, and the HHO came in 50 feet down the line, after that point it would be 100:1 for the remaning 50 feet of that closed system.

[Helz_McFugly]

ok, so are you saying that injecting directly into a cylinder is more efficient? On the same engine, both systems 'properly' tuned, do you think a carbed engine would use more or less gas than the same engine with a fuel injection setup? Not talking about HHO, just regular gas.

Didnt I already answer this?? yes its more efficient. yes carb uses more gas. are you trying to imply that porting HHO into or just next to the chamber is any different then porting it into a vacuum line or the intake? youre still only pumping the same amount of HHO out at 500 rpm as you are at 3500 rpm. unless you pressurize your HHO system, make injectors, and have an ECM to run a HHO EFI system. HA!



I agree with this. It sounds like low LPM HHO generators are a waste of time, or just implemented into the ICE wrong.
why would they be a waist of time? If you put 1LPM in the intake or 20LPM I the intake, Its going into the combustion chamber, depending on the rpms depends on the amount of air its mixed with. If its ported into a vacuum, unless it can put out as much as the highest negitive pressure of that vacuume then there is going to be a lag when vacuum drops, there will be a few strokes of that cylinder that gets NO HHO to it, untill the system catches back up. Now if youre porting it in on the unvacuumed side of the TB youll have more HHO per volume at lower RPMS and less at higher RPMS but youll still ALWAYS have SOME per volume of air.


You are not adding any additional air to the HHO in this test. Exactly the point
If you were trying to light the bubbles 6 feet from the bubbler, that relates to what he was explaining. But you are lighting the bubbles directly on top of the bubbler. NOPE has nothing to do with what he explained, now your talking about trying to light it in open air, like just standing out side or in a room, if you inject 20LPM into your intake 5 inches from the throttle body and "stop time",hypothetically speaking, then take 1 sq inch of air right before the TB its going to have X amount of H2, X amount of everythign else. now if you take the same volume of air just before the combustion chamber its going to be the exact same ratio the way I see it. there is no more air getting in that intake for it to mix with once it passes your air filter. AM I THE ONLY ONE THAT SEES IT THIS WAY?


Usually when a gas is put into a larger container it dilutes for lack of a better term. If you add gas to a large container and then blow air into it, it dilutes it even more.

How much volume does a engine cylinder have? How much volume does your air intake piping, throttle body, intake manifold and cylinder have combined?

It sounds like you are not feeding enough HHO for your engine's demands, for where you are inserting the HHO into your engine. I didnt know we were talking about my system, I though we were talking in general
totally irrelevant to this discussion??

[Helz_McFugly]

HAH, I think we posted at the same time there. your first sentence -->:D<--
yep

[biggy boy]

If your intake system was 100 feet long air the air came in on one end, and the HHO came in 50 feet down the line, after that point it would be 100:1 for the remaning 50 feet of that closed system.
What would happen if you installed two electronic sparkers in that 100 foot tube?

Place one sparker at the point of HHo input At your 50 foot mark!
And place the other sparker down at the end of that tube 50 feet from the hho entry, one hundred feet from the air entry point.

OK which sparker is going to be able to cause the most explosive effect??
The one at the HHO entry or the one 50 feet away at the end of the tube??? You would run one sparker at a time!!

Glen

[Helz_McFugly]

What would happen if you installed two electronic sparkers in that 100 foot tube?

Place one sparker at the point of HHo input At your 50 foot mark!
And place the other sparker down at the end of that tube 50 feet from the hho entry, one hundred feet from the air entry point.

OK which sparker is going to be able to cause the most explosive effect??
The one at the HHO entry or the one 50 feet away??? You would run one sparker at a time!!

Glen
they will both make the same big a$$ explosion no matter where you put the spark as long as you give the HHO time to get to the end of that tube.

[biggy boy]

they will both make the same big a$$ explosion no matter where you put the spark as long as you give the HHO time to get to the end of that tube.
I disagree and the only way to prove it is to do the experiment, with a 100 foot tube as described

So go ahead and prove me wrong!!!:p :p :p

[Helz_McFugly]

man Im not lighting 50 or 100 foot of HHO. Thats a fools test there. I know what it will do. if you give the HHO time to get to the end of the pipe, being a 3" pipe? with a small fan on one end, maybe let it run for a couple minutes so the HHO is flowing through it before you start sparking, you can spark the one at 50 feet or the one at 100 feet and that flame is going to go in both directions of that spark. and besides, I dont have a 100 foot pipe. and I dont have a high output hho system. well I do its just not put together yet. but im still not running this explosive test. although it would be cool to watch at night. from a distance

[biggy boy]

man Im not lighting 50 or 100 foot of HHO. Thats a fools test there. I know what it will do. if you give the HHO time to get to the end of the pipe, being a 3" pipe? with a small fan on one end, maybe let it run for a couple minutes so the HHO is flowing through it before you start sparking, you can spark the one at 50 feet or the one at 100 feet and that flame is going to go in both directions of that spark. and besides, I dont have a 100 foot pipe. and I dont have a high output hho system. well I do its just not put together yet. but im still not running this explosive test. although it would be cool to watch at night. from a distance

And you could launch tennis balls and potatoes at your neighbors.
H*ll you might even be able to hit Phil's place.:p

Glen

[Roland Jacques]

What would happen if you installed two electronic sparkers in that 100 foot tube?

Place one sparker at the point of HHo input At your 50 foot mark!
And place the other sparker down at the end of that tube 50 feet from the hho entry, one hundred feet from the air entry point.

OK which sparker is going to be able to cause the most explosive effect??
The one at the HHO entry or the one 50 feet away at the end of the tube??? You would run one sparker at a time!!

Glen

I know what your trying to say. Unlike the other guys, you are talking about well mixed gas vs unmixed gas, NOT diluting which is what they were saying.

If your gases where some-how not mixed at 100;1 ratio, the Hypothetical non mixed gas would only ignite 1% of the time. (in our Hypotheticall pipe) Because 99 % of the unmixed gases would be just air. the 1% of the time when it did ignite, Would the "HHO Pop" be crisper? Probably so. Would the energy still be the same definitely so. Could the Hypothetical "crisper pop" (for lack of better term) have a benefit in a combustion chamber? I cant see how can you?

Another thing, IF this "un-mixed" gas was to go into a 4 different cylinders only 1 of them would have HHO in it. Sooo :rolleyes:

[biggy boy]

Another example.
You walk into a small room 6'x 6'x 6' tall with two 1 litre sealed jars, with the same amount of hho in then. The door is closed the room is pretty much sealed.
you open the first jar and immediately light a lighter at the opening of the jar.
What would happen?
Next you take the second jar and open it, but wait 1 minute. then light a lighter near the jar. What would happen?

Same amount of air in the room!! same amount of HHo.
Test # 1 the hho did not have time to dissipate into the surrounding air.
Second test the hho had time to dissipate.

I think this is what Richard was trying to get across! The further it is away from the ignition source the more time it has to spread out.
Now I am not saying I agree with him!! I'm just trying to explain his point. But to me I don't know if it does make a difference! What are we talking here a nano second in difference from one foot from the intake and right at the cylinder!!

[Roland Jacques]

Another example.
You walk into a small room 6'x 6'x 6' tall with two 1 litre sealed jars, with the same amount of hho in then. The door is closed the room is pretty much sealed.
you open the first jar and immediately light a lighter at the opening of the jar.
What would happen?
Next you take the second jar and open it, but wait 1 minute. then light a lighter near the jar. What would happen?

Same amount of air in the room!! same amount of HHo.
Test # 1 the hho did not have time to dissipate into the surrounding air.
Second test the hho had time to dissipate.

I think this is what Richard was trying to get across! The further it is away from the ignition source the more time it has to spread out.
Now I am not saying I agree with him!! I'm just trying to explain his point. But to me I don't know if it does make a difference! What are we talking here a nano second in difference from one foot from the intake and right at the cylinder!!

Yes, yours is a very clear example. I did not think this is what Richard was trying to say.

I guess if anyone could show where they actually got better results by moving their HHO input closer. Then yes this could be on the list of possible explanations.

[HurstOlds]

Usually when a gas is put into a larger container it dilutes for lack of a better term.

I can't speak for Richard, but...

Thank you Biggy Boy, this was exactly what I was trying to say. I think they at least understand what we're trying to say. Not that what anyone is saying is correct or wrong.

Overall I think if you are sending an smackload of HHO, in anough amount that you have excess....it won't matter where you inject it into the engine.

But for the amounts I have seen for the 'average' HHO generator, I think closer is better.

[HurstOlds]

unless you pressurize your HHO system, make injectors, and have an ECM to run a HHO EFI system

That is a great idea. Now you're starting to sound like Richard :D

[Helz_McFugly]

I can't speak for Richard, but...

Thank you Biggy Boy, this was exactly what I was trying to say. I think they at least understand what we're trying to say. Not that what anyone is saying is correct or wrong.

Overall I think if you are sending an smackload of HHO, in anough amount that you have excess....it won't matter where you inject it into the engine.

But for the amounts I have seen for the 'average' HHO generator, I think closer is better.

and Im the one starting to sound like Richard? HA

I took you for a red stripe man, not Corona.

[Buster]

I usually don't like to jump the gun and state any results until I have more long term ones and am more certain, but I thought it might help open the subject for some serious scrutiny.

I don't think Richard had it all worked out properly with his system, but I expect he'll soon move forward with what he actually had right and since clearly learning more about the process.

Basically, I've had more direct injection for a short while now and I appear to be getting my best results ever. I still haven't done a long drive, or anywhere near enough tests to say for sure, but it looks highly likely that my normal town driving has jumped by around another 22% since changing to the direct injection AND ceasing to cool the HHO output through a water bubbler before input. ie. not removing the steam from the gas, which I believe is the main issue with having a closer injection point???
This figure is on top of the 60%+ town driving I have got using my usual kit, so I'm actually now looking at 88% increase!!! I calculate another 10% or more still to come as I have some previously well tested adjustments still to make.(Yet to hit the AMP draw sweet spot for this particular vehicle)

When I've finished all my testing and worked out what I think is actually happening from all of this I'll report what I think and see if anyone else has some ideas about it.
-Bear in mind that these are preliminary results and it's possible that they are wrong, but so far it certainly looks like my own rule book is going to be rewritten!

[HurstOlds]

Nice, let us know if/when you get any more results. This sounds similar to what Richard was detailing in his epic thread.

Everyone was calling his gen a steam generator, lol.

I'm very curious how you're doing your direct injection and what kind of safety you have built into your system if you are not using a bubbler

[Roland Jacques]

I usually don't like to jump the gun and state any results until I have more long term ones and am more certain, but I thought it might help open the subject for some serious scrutiny.

I don't think Richard had it all worked out properly with his system, but I expect he'll soon move forward with what he actually had right and since clearly learning more about the process.

Basically, I've had more direct injection for a short while now and I appear to be getting my best results ever. I still haven't done a long drive, or anywhere near enough tests to say for sure, but it looks highly likely that my normal town driving has jumped by around another 22% since changing to the direct injection AND ceasing to cool the HHO output through a water bubbler before input. ie. not removing the steam from the gas, which I believe is the main issue with having a closer injection point???

This figure is on top of the 60%+ town driving I have got using my usual kit, so I'm actually now looking at 88% increase!!! I calculate another 10% or more still to come as I have some previously well tested adjustments still to make.(Yet to hit the AMP draw sweet spot for this particular vehicle)

When I've finished all my testing and worked out what I think is actually happening from all of this I'll report what I think and see if anyone else has some ideas about it.
-Bear in mind that these are preliminary results and it's possible that they are wrong, but so far it certainly looks like my own rule book is going to be rewritten!

Nice, some more testing and preliminary results. We are in agreement on the suspicion of steam playing a role in injection point advantages. At least it is at the top of my list right now. Anyway it's definitely worth more testing.

How do you determine the sweet spot Amp draw for a particular vehicle?

[Helz_McFugly]

I usually don't like to jump the gun and state any results until I have more long term ones and am more certain, but I thought it might help open the subject for some serious scrutiny.

I don't think Richard had it all worked out properly with his system, but I expect he'll soon move forward with what he actually had right and since clearly learning more about the process.

Basically, I've had more direct injection for a short while now and I appear to be getting my best results ever. I still haven't done a long drive, or anywhere near enough tests to say for sure, but it looks highly likely that my normal town driving has jumped by around another 22% since changing to the direct injection AND ceasing to cool the HHO output through a water bubbler before input. ie. not removing the steam from the gas, which I believe is the main issue with having a closer injection point???
This figure is on top of the 60%+ town driving I have got using my usual kit, so I'm actually now looking at 88% increase!!! I calculate another 10% or more still to come as I have some previously well tested adjustments still to make.(Yet to hit the AMP draw sweet spot for this particular vehicle)

When I've finished all my testing and worked out what I think is actually happening from all of this I'll report what I think and see if anyone else has some ideas about it.
-Bear in mind that these are preliminary results and it's possible that they are wrong, but so far it certainly looks like my own rule book is going to be rewritten!

thats great to hear. I think it is better that the steam injection should be as close to the injection valve as you can get it because its more atomized, plus you dont want water pooling up in your intake. So, did you go direct with the HHO and take away the bubbler at the same time? I really think your steam and HHO should come from different systems. have you ran that test I ran to see if there is E-lytes in your steam. the cold mirror test?

[Buster]

Roland: How do you determine the sweet spot Amp draw for a particular vehicle?:

Just trial and error really. I start off at, say, 15A and see what MPG I get on a given journey over 'X' miles. Then raise to, maybe 17.5A, then 20A etc.etc. This is my test vehicle and I know from previous testing that it likes about 20A most.

Helz: So, did you go direct with the HHO and take away the bubbler at the same time? I really think your steam and HHO should come from different systems. have you ran that test I ran to see if there is E-lytes in your steam. the cold mirror test?

Yes, both done together, so it could be either or both changes making the difference, admittedly, and ,yes, it would probably be better to use a separate steamer and HHO system & I plan to try it at a later stage.

I've been using a scrubber in place of a bubbler on my systems lately and have been getting great results. Also Koh is supposed to be a 'non loss' electrolyte' so there shouldn't be any in the gas, but the scrubber's there just in case. Keeping the HHO as it comes is more of a priority for me for the moment for these tests. I've really given up worrying about flashback as over thousands of collective miles with different vehicles and systems I've never had any problems. Producing gas without the engine running would make this a problem though, so this way needs careful consideration, so I'm not recommending it to anyone.

Am really having a blast at the moment with this particular result as well as with other installations. Everyone's happy in Busters world at the moment.
You gotta' love HHO man!!

[Helz_McFugly]

buster, Do you have a injection hose for each combustion chamber? if so, when you use T's to get 4 hoses, dont all 4 hoses have to be the exact same length, from the single hose, so they all get the same amount of HHO? im not sure how you are doing it but Ide think that if they are just ported in, then the HHO is going to take the shortest rought and youll have more HHO in the clostest chamber and maybe none in the farthest, right?

[Buster]

buster, Do you have a injection hose for each combustion chamber? if so, when you use T's to get 4 hoses, dont all 4 hoses have to be the exact same length, from the single hose, so they all get the same amount of HHO? im not sure how you are doing it but Ide think that if they are just ported in, then the HHO is going to take the shortest rought and youll have more HHO in the clostest chamber and maybe none in the farthest, right?

You'll have to excuse me as I'm experiencing a 'home made wine' moment, courtesy of a very happy customer....Lol

I think I should have said a 'more direct' injection, ie 'vacuum injection', as I've previously outlined. I considered porting the combustion chamber but decided against it as I like to keep it simple and more in line with what the average customer could practically use, hence Richards system isn't much interest to me, however many MPG it may deliver.

I'm still not sure about the vacuum injection being the main plus, but I'm more certain from my results so far that unadulterated HHO output is a benefit. Don't let it cool or loose it's moisture content.
Anyone got any pointers as regards water/steam injection designs or ready made kits??

...Also, has anyone got a spare pair of wings, 'cos I swear this Suzuki's just itching to leave terra firma!!

[biggy boy]

Anyone got any pointers as regards water/steam injection designs or ready made kits??


This guy is selling a portable unit for injection.

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?p=34680#post34680

I priced out a pump at about $100.00 CDN 100 PSI
$15.00 for the nozzle.
$15.00 for the storage tank
$8.00 for a relay
$22.00 for a pressure switch.....

Not sure what buddy is selling his complete kit for?

Glen

[HurstOlds]

I'm still trying to understand the steam idea.....do you think the steam would be cooler than the HHO when it ignites? ie...the steam would help to cool down the cylinder?

I know people in the turbo Buick camps do something like this. They run E-85 gas in their cars, and use methanol direct injection kits to cool the burn down I believe.

What is the octane of E-85 and what would the 'octane' be for HHO. I don't think E-85 gas acts like 85 octane gas, I think it burns hotter and slower....more like 110 octane gas or something like that. I am wondering if a meth injection kit would work wonders on an HHO system.

I think HHO burns hotter but faster, so I'm not sure. That's why you need to change the timing of the engine for HHO setups?

[Buster]

....still no offers on the wings then???
-Oh well!

I had another fill up today. This is the second since my changes and it's another blinder!!! Total increase above what we used to get around town (27MPG) is now actually 92%!! or 51.85MPG!!!
I'm very, very confident of the accuracy now,....been doing this a long time and could almost guess it now.
I've read that the 'stock' MPG is 30 for town, but this is now an 11 year old petrol car and it's got wide low profile tyres with one having a very slow puncture, so our original 27 is more acurately the base figure for me, personally. I don't doubt I could break 100% over stock if I actually tried using some of the techniques people use for MPG competitions. Remember I haven't changed anything else, not even changed the oil in a couple of years even.:o I just want to keep it as standard as possible for my testing so I know what our installs are or are not actually achieving.
I'm looking forward to doing a longer run this week to see if I can get above 70MPG.
(our cousins please remember this is on European gallons, )

I fancy entering one of these MPG competitions just to show what HHO can do and prove I'm not making it up.

[Helz_McFugly]

Buster thats awesome, after installing my new system (3LPM) ive also ported back to the vacuum. how many LPM are you makeing at startup (while its still below 80f)? whats your MMW?

[Buster]

Buster thats awesome, after installing my new system (3LPM) ive also ported back to the vacuum. how many LPM are you makeing at startup (while its still below 80f)? whats your MMW?

That will be interesting then. Let's hope you get some good results. Just be careful to keep the vacuum in tact. I actually would be hesitant to do a vacuum install for customers as there are potential risks.

I haven't done a lpm or MMW test, but am only pullng around 13A so would estimate around 0.75-1lpm. That's why I'm confident that I can get more MPG yet, as 20A seems to be this car's sweet spot. I'll explain things at a later date when I've finalised everything.

I've got some other installations which are testing out the 'vacuum effect' and also 'dry bubbler effect' so I hope to have some more results to ponder over this week.

[Roland Jacques]

....still no offers on the wings then???
-oh well!

I had another fill up today. This is the second since my changes and it's another blinder!!! Total increase above what we used to get around town (27mpg) is now actually 92%!! Or 51.85mpg!!!
I'm very, very confident of the accuracy now,....been doing this a long time and could almost guess it now.
I've read that the 'stock' mpg is 30 for town, but this is now an 11 year old petrol car and it's got wide low profile tyres with one having a very slow puncture, so our original 27 is more acurately the base figure for me, personally. I don't doubt i could break 100% over stock if i actually tried using some of the techniques people use for mpg competitions. Remember i haven't changed anything else, not even changed the oil in a couple of years even.:o i just want to keep it as standard as possible for my testing so i know what our installs are or are not actually achieving.
I'm looking forward to doing a longer run this week to see if i can get above 70mpg.
(our cousins please remember this is on european gallons, )

i fancy entering one of these mpg competitions just to show what hho can do and prove i'm not making it up.

Awesome !!!! :):):)

[biggy boy]

This is very exciting news.
I'm looking forward to a summery of what you have done, when you are finished with the testing!

Glen

[HurstOlds]

Hi Buster sorry if you mentioned this before...but is this on a carbureted or fuel injected engine?

[Helz_McFugly]

I took mine back off the vacuum. no gain and it still has a lag so Im just going to build a steam injector like stevo's

[redrat100]

I took mine back off the vacuum. no gain and it still has a lag so Im just going to build a steam injector like stevo's

Thanks for the post Helz. I was going to put mine on the vacuum side but won't now.

[Roland Jacques]

I took mine back off the vacuum. no gain and it still has a lag so Im just going to build a steam injector like stevo's


What does stevo's steam injector look like?

[Helz_McFugly]

here is the thread with Stevo's

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=1673

[richard_lyew]

You'll have to excuse me as I'm experiencing a 'home made wine' moment, courtesy of a very happy customer....Lol

I think I should have said a 'more direct' injection, ie 'vacuum injection', as I've previously outlined. I considered porting the combustion chamber but decided against it as I like to keep it simple and more in line with what the average customer could practically use, hence Richards system isn't much interest to me, however many MPG it may deliver.

I'm still not sure about the vacuum injection being the main plus, but I'm more certain from my results so far that unadulterated HHO output is a benefit. Don't let it cool or loose it's moisture content.
Anyone got any pointers as regards water/steam injection designs or ready made kits??

...Also, has anyone got a spare pair of wings, 'cos I swear this Suzuki's just itching to leave terra firma!!

LOL i never taught i would see the day where someone would come and say yes this is a big plus :D yet still you keep biting your words, if you found that porting the HHO closer to the flame is better, why not get as close as you can? non of what we are doing is practical sir so you might as well go all out(dont half step)

and as for the added power, if you had a AFC you would see the big gain as you could cut your fuel usage way way back.

where were peltiers all my life?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? the cars heat can cool your system plus make more HHO LOL :D im loving it. the peltiers system can look after itself plus still cool my HHO system and still make more power enough to power a cell to make more HHO!!!!!! LOVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!


and i love Subaru's, i feel they were made for HHO LMAO. they have VVT, a port on the vacuum already, perfect space to add more intake ports already(to the intake manifold), perfect space under the car for the cells, the output manifold is under the car as well for the peltier generators, all the AFC's works with Subaru's (total control)

last words. cool your HHO output before it reaches the car (try to freez it LOL).

[richard_lyew]

That will be interesting then. Let's hope you get some good results. Just be careful to keep the vacuum in tact. I actually would be hesitant to do a vacuum install for customers as there are potential risks.

I haven't done a lpm or MMW test, but am only pullng around 13A so would estimate around 0.75-1lpm. That's why I'm confident that I can get more MPG yet, as 20A seems to be this car's sweet spot. I'll explain things at a later date when I've finalised everything.

I've got some other installations which are testing out the 'vacuum effect' and also 'dry bubbler effect' so I hope to have some more results to ponder over this week.

LOL im happy to see this(vacuum baby!!!!!!!!) where is phill now?. wait till i port 20LPM direct :D

Helz i bet ur loving it :D :D :D

[richard_lyew]

Awesome !!!!

LOL you think thats "Awesome" just wait until he is getting 100+MPG LOL then he can take some of the cussing too LMAO!!!! he is not even using a AFC yet and he is still at about 1 to 4LPM to the vacuum LOL what if he was porting 20LPM? :eek: :D :D :D

[Helz_McFugly]

IMO, being that he removed his bubbler so the steam can get into the engine at the same time he ported it into the vacuum I think his gains are from the steam.


LOL you think thats "Awesome" just wait until he is getting 100+MPG LOL then he can take some of the cussing too LMAO!!!! he is not even using a AFC yet and he is still at about 1 to 4LPM to the vacuum LOL what if he was porting 20LPM?
well Im sure he would be posting valid proof and not just ridiculous claims.

LOL im happy to see this(vacuum baby!!!!!!!!) where is phill now?. wait till i port 20LPM direct
Helz i bet ur loving it
What do you mean "wait till I port 20lpm direct" You said you already were doing that??? your "idea/current system" is probably making about 14LPM of HHO, maybe less, the rest is just expanded gas from the heat and steam. check the output while its cool, about 77f. that will give you a real LPM of HHO.

And yes I am love the hell out of it when someone makes "real life" progress.

[HurstOlds]

LOL im happy to see this(vacuum baby!!!!!!!!) where is phill now?. wait till i port 20LPM direct :D


Very nice :D

[Helz_McFugly]

a far better spot then vacuum. if you port into a venturi it works so much better. a venturi will draw more vacuum as your RPMs increase, unlike a vacuum which draws heavy negitive pressure while at idle and nothing when you open the throttle body and lose all negitive pressure. the vacuum works in reverse of what you want.
Also if you are porting ito a vacuum you are giving you car its peak amount of HHO at idle. when you need the power at acceleration, you open the throttle body butterfly, vacuum stops, and youre getting NO HHO because your system is catching up to the barametrics pressure. The time it takes to catch back up depends on how much air space there is in your system. the more pockets of air (like in bubblers, reservoir, and hoses) the longer it take to catch up.
If you dont have a venturi port they are very easy to make inside your intake hose out of a plastick funnel, or ping pong ball just before the throttle body.
using a vacuum port for HHO is the wrong way to go about it. If you dont have or cant make a venturi, porting into the airhose is better then the vacuum for the same reasons. vacuum = peak HHO at Idle, nothing while accelerating.

[hhonewbie]

a far better spot then vacuum. if you port into a venturi it works so much better. a venturi will draw more vacuum as your RPMs increase, unlike a vacuum which draws heavy negitive pressure while at idle and nothing when you open the throttle body and lose all negitive pressure.If you dont have a venturi port they are very easy to make inside your intake hose out of a plastick funnel, or ping pong ball just before the throttle body.
using a vacuum port for HHO is the wrong way to go about it. If you dont have or cant make a venturi, porting into the airhose is better then the vacuum for the same reasons. vacuum = peak HHO at Idle, nothing while accelerating.

One of the vehicals I have is a Diesel turbo injection would It be more efficient to make a venturi before turbo for HHO?
Also is it possible to WVI before turbo or will turbo, intercooler & intake hoses, manifold wet out before reaching inlet chambers?

[Helz_McFugly]

Im not sure I would make a venturi in a turbo intake system. that thing needs every bit of air it can get. If you restrick the air flow you could damage it. you would have to use water injection (pump required) rather then water induction (uses negitive pressure). I dont think it would hurt the turbo to have water vapor pass through it as long as the water remains in an atomized state. If you can afford it, you should look into Snow performance water injection. www.snowperformance.net thats the real deal as far as water injection, this is what anyone trying cool water injection or induction is trying to replicate.

you can try steam as well but cool water vapor is better. the difference is that steam is already expanded. by using cool water vapor it allows for more expansion in the combustion chamber.

[hhonewbie]

Im not sure I would make a venturi in a turbo intake system. that thing needs every bit of air it can get.

HHO induction. I was thinking of putting a bigger intake hose between airfilter & turbo to house a venturi with same size intake thus not restricting intake? Would I need to or should I just keep it stock and just pipe into intake hose?

[richard_lyew]

hello, turbo vehicles have 2 air intake, 1 big which come from the turbo to the main intake and a small intake which the engine use to throttle ect. port all your HHO to only the small intake. leave the big intake untouched, port your HHO after the air filter and as close to the combustion chamber as possible.

if and when you have done this please reply and let the forum know what happen. :D

[Helz_McFugly]

He was asking about making a venturi (negitive pressure increases as RPM's go up) in his intake hose.
hhonewbie, to answer your question, what you are talking about would work a little but not enough to work properly. Its better to jsut port your HHO in how you have it now. If you want to use water injection you can get a 40psi water pump thats controlled by vacuum and get a atomization nozzle, which is what Im going to swith to. Im putting in a cold air intake and there is no where to make a venturi in it. Ill post pics and vids of everything I do.

[hhonewbie]

port your HHO after the air filter and as close to the combustion chamber as possible.

Incorrect. You need to know what your talkn about. Your head is swollen. You know not and not thinks he knows yet knows nothing. You need to listen and be humble.

Helz,
What about a mist/fog maker for WVI?

[Helz_McFugly]

Richard seems to think porting into the vacuum is the thing to do. even though the vacuum works the opposite of how you would want your gas delivered. If you use your vacuum youll get all your hho at idle and none when accelerating, when you need it most. Dont mind him, hes in the spirit world. :rolleyes:

yea the misters or foggers would be perfect. here is a link to some ultrasonic pond foggers. http://www.mainlandmart.com/foggers.html
jump over to the "water injection" thread.

http://www.hhoforums.com/showthread.php?t=1673

[Roland Jacques]

Incorrect. You need to know what your talkn about. Your head is swollen. You know not and not thinks he knows yet knows nothing. You need to listen and be humble.

Helz,
What about a mist/fog maker for WVI?

The fog makers i used and sold never lasted very long some not even a month. ( but then again they were running 24/7)

WVI makes sense when you consider the ability for cool water too expand 1600% plus. a lot of very good result reported.

Steam on the other hand is technically expanded already So... But, steam seems to have something else going on. Honestly I'm not sure what it is. I have an idea but it really does not make sense.
I'll look for a video (i think it is SirHOAX) that shows ducted superheated steam hitting Burning HHO. It actually looks as if the steam is burning. That video and a few others reports, videos etc, leads me to think that the steam burning could be the case. If in fact this superheated steam is dissociating H2 from O2 in the this High heat/pressure environment forming HHO then burning. Closer to the combustion chamber would/could play a big role. I know this is way out there, but to me there seems to be enough circumstantial evidence to say it worth experimenting with, at least for me it is.




I dont think a venturi before your turbo would be a issue. (easy for me to say its not my turbo) I believe we are only trying to get 1-2 PSI differential pressure from the venturi. I think the restriction would not be more amount than 2-3 PSI max. A dirty air filter could causes more restriction than that. Maybe use some pressure gauges to be sure if you want to go that way. But like i say its not my $$ turbo.

[hhonewbie]

Dont mind him, hes in the spirit world. :rolleyes:

Their too wise & universaly knowledgeable to let him in

[hhonewbie]

The fog makers i used and sold never lasted very long some not even a month. ( but then again they were running 24/7)

Coud it be the heat under the bonnet or maybe a power serge etc.? Did it burn out or dry out(no water)?


I dont think a venturi before your turbo would be a issue.

Do you think a venturi will help avoid negative vacuum at high rpm under load?

[Roland Jacques]

1. Coud it be the heat under the bonnet or maybe a power serge etc.? Did it burn out or dry out(no water)?





2. Do you think a venturi will help avoid negative vacuum at high rpm under load?
1. I sold them at my pet store. and got a lot of returns. We also used a few of them for our own reptiles. They did not run dry the performance just declined over time. But remember 24/7 for 30 days is probably = a couples of years of driving. So that point is mute.

2. Avoid negative vacuum????? YES.
:confused: Wait, NO, wait, a negative vacuum is a positive pressure, so avoiding a positive pressure would be a negative pressure. So would a venturi help a negative pressure. so helping a negative... AHHH! Man,you hurt my brain.

Venturi = Good. Like Helz says More RPM = more vacuum

[Helz_McFugly]

Do you think a venturi will help avoid negative vacuum at high rpm under load?

now thats deep, :p
I hope this answers your question
if you install a venturi, when you are at idle it will pull no air through your WVI system, as you increase rpm the negitive pressure (vacuum) increases. If its under load such as when you are taking off from a stop, the negitive pressure really gets high and it will pull alot of air through your WVI.

there is a difference in 2K RPMs under load and 2K RPMs at highway speeds not under load.
2K RPMs at highway speeds will pull no air through your WVI, under load it will pull alot. the way I got mine to pull a little air through at highway speed was to install a type of ram air. My WVI's intake hose is ported to a funnel behind my grill so air is forced into it when at highway speeds so it lowers the normal barametric pressure in the WVI chanmber and allows the little bit of vacuum created at 2K RPMs at highway speeds, not under load, to pull a little air through it.

another way Im about to buld is to put another hole in the WVI chamber and port my HHO hose down into the WVI chamber so it acts as a bubbler so it will be bubbling while at idle and, well, all the time. here is a diagram of what it looks like.

On the right is my HHO system which is in the trunk and way larger then it looks in the diagram. the WVI is blown up on the diagram so you can see what im trying to get across. on the left it has the option of pulling air from the air box or the ram air as I am doing.
http://hhoinfo.ning.com/forum/attachment/download?id=2068750%3AUploadedFi58%3A56965

[biggy boy]

Helz that looks great!
I think you are on to something big time here!!

The fact that some of your air coming in via your ram is bypassing your
MAF sensor with help lean out your AFR a bit.
Because you are adding more air then what the MAF see!!

Glen

[Helz_McFugly]

NO, I went back to the 24 ohm resister in replacement of the MAF sensor when I did all this. Ill have to do a new vid. My shizz is all different. I remover my entire factory intake and installed a cool air intake and a really good ventury. It looks alot nicer. plus I get better gains with the 24 ohm resister then I do with the MAF senson.

[hhonewbie]

Helz,
You got your HHO pumping in through and mixing with your WVI?
You getting any increase in MPG gains?

[Helz_McFugly]

You got your HHO pumping in through and mixing with your WVI?

NO, as of right now im not. but Im going to. every thing in the diagram is in place other then the HHO hose going into the WVI chamber. But Ill be puting it in there as soon as I get time to work on it.

You getting any increase in MPG gains?
And yes Im getting great gains. 19MPG was my average from the day I got my car new before I altered anything. With HHO and WVI im at 27MPG. which im very happy with but im going to keep trying for more untill I make it to 100% increase. then Ill try some more :p

[hhonewbie]

Ill be puting it in there as soon as I get time to work on it.
Good idea your onto it. What about fogging HHO?

19MPG was my average. untill I make it to 100% increase. then Ill try some more :p
19MPG at stock for a your car seems a little poor. Awesome gains. Theres only so much you can improve an inefficient ICE whats next hybrid electric or totaly EV charge as you drive unlimited milage(a dream or maybe reality). I wish I knew Teslas hidden secrets.

[Helz_McFugly]

The factory sticker was 17 city / 24 highway. I think its doing pretty well. I could always drive my old 83 toyota p/u that gets like 35mpg but its a POS. Ide rather save $ in style :p

fog HHO? its already a gas. no need

[350matt]

This sounds pretty interesting as by adding a venturi / emulsion tube you're starting to turn the HHO introduction point into a carburettor.

I've currently got my injection point just before the throttle body so I'll add a venturi / tube over the end of the injection point so it looks a bit like a Tee-piece with the 90° leg being the HHO in point and the other 2 ends in the flow stream.

I'm still only getting very marginal gains from my system 26-27mpg up from 24-25mpg so I need to do something.

[rboos]

I don't have a very big background in this sort of thing, but I HAVE seen a lot of rumors going around about HHO, as if the people starting the rumors are trying to make HHO more exotic somehow. If anything, it would seem that this rumor SHOULD be the opposite as you want the HHO to be as thoroughly mixed as possible. Adding into the air intake as far upstream as possible would maximize this effect. Just my $0.02.

Agree, I have seen some 'liquefied petrol gas' engines where they use a gas mixer, it looks like a ring shaped stove burner, to get a complete mix with the intake air. so the gas is injected all around the intake circunference, no just one point...

[Roland Jacques]

by the way talking with a pioneer of this process Larry Jarboe the purity and quality of the gas being produce is also a key in the process.

What does this mean? How do you qualify "purity" or "quality"?

[Roland Jacques]

The color change is interesting worth looking into a little. It does make me wonder if the pressure was the same at cold and hot temps. Pressure plays a roll in flame shape and color. So to be objective we would have to make sure the pressure is the same at both temps.

The main thing you need to produce a torch flame is pressure, not LPM. I agree for a practical sized torch, 2 LPM is needed. That is due to the orifice size with the LPM to create the ideal pressure range. If you use a small hypodermic needle you make a torch with 0.2 LPM.

[Helz_McFugly]

youre making 1 liter in 25 seconds at 10 amps? At what voltage? If youre talking 13.8VDC, which it sounds like your are being its in a car, thats 17.4 MMW. it sounds like you have yourself a steam machine. Thats why your flame is different colors. Its mostly water vapor.
Do tell. explain your system. :confused: somethign doesnt add up

[hhonewbie]

thus far I build a system that produce gas at 10 amp a little over 2 liter a minutes or a liter at 25 seconds.

2 liters @ 10amps. Like Helz I would also like to know or see your system.
Sounds to good to be true

[Roland Jacques]

That does sound like a too good to be true number. I think poor amp meters, and even volt meter, are responsible for most errors from a lot of folks testing. Water does vaporize at any temp, even ice vaporizes. But if your cell is a standard type build its probably not much vapor at 69 degrees.

Is your cell unique in any way?

[bergs23]

Nhhobie here...Back to the topic of thread for a second, "injection point", has anyone injected hho into pcv and throttle body, with any results?

[Helz_McFugly]

10 amps would be ideal for that reactor being 20 sq. in. of surface area. 2"x10" would be close to whats wet. and I like the tall thin designs, Im building a 7 or 8 cell 3"x32" surface area reactor. I think there might be something to that tall thin design. we will see. but I would like to see what you get from the clamp meter and also a vid showing volts, amps, and output. If you are getting 1 liter in 25 seconds off 10 amps I would really like to see that.

[hhonewbie]

I like the tall thin designs, Im building a 7 or 8 cell 3"x32" surface area reactor. I think there might be something to that tall thin design. we will see.
Run both verticaly and horizontily to find out which is better producer. Keep me posted on this it could be horizontal is better

[BackinHHO]

As to the question of where to inject the HHO, for an HHO boost application, it would appear that in a closed system, the more opportunity the various gases(HHO,air) have to mix, the more even the eventual distribution of any component of that mixture will be down the line at any point you want to pick.

That would seem to indicate that the further away from the engine you can inject the HHO, the better it will be mixed in with the air, and the more even will be it's delivery across all cylinders.

But then we encounter the MAF sensor. In most engines, these are placed in the air intake after the cleaner and before the throttle body. HHO can apparently do real damage to these rather expensive items. So, that puts us back towards the engine/throttle body for positioning our injection point, and the question of whether or not even mixing and distribution will occur.

Does anyone have any experience with multiple injection points around the intake and whether that makes any difference? If not, I'll do some testing.

[Helz_McFugly]

yea on subject, in short. between the MAF and throttle body. The air flow is turbulent enough to mix it well before it gets to the combustion chamber even ported right at the throttle body.

In between my MAF and throttle body i have created a venturi and had mine ported into there so it has some negative pressure as RPMs rise thus sucking more HHO from the air pocket in the bubbler & 7' of 5/8" hose, My system would bubble more rapid when I would excel, then when RPMs go down the system catches back up to the pressure at low RPMs. It would stop bubbling for a couple seconds.

[Helz_McFugly]

Thats still a 9.8 MMW. thats a pretty tall claim. time for a video mate.

[lhazleton]

That's a super-high claim for that configuration.
3tsp. of what per qt.?
It's gotta be a steam machine.