HHO/MPG Theory Debate

[Philldpapill]

So, what causes the increase in MPG? I've heard a few theories which have some merit, some that don't. I'd like to start this thread discussing the science of what is going on in the engine that gives rise to an increase in fuel efficiency.

My theory, involves the flashpoint of H2 compared to the hydrocarbons in gasoline. Basically, it takes less heat for H2 and O2 to react, than it does for a longer hydrocarbon chain like the ones in gasoline. If this is the case, then it seems the flamefront in the engine would be somewhat faster, with the H2 "igniting" first, giving a more uniform burn.

Your thoughts? Your theories?

[biggy boy]

Yes I'm with you. The flame front is sped up.

1) So is the HHO increasing the flame front speed of the gasoline?

2)Or does the gasoline's flame front speed stay the same, just the flame speed of the HHO is faster?

If the second idea is true, then you would be taking a combined average of the two flame fronts and using that number as your new flame front speed!?!?

If this indeed is what you are thinking then yes It would make sense that the HHO is not acting as a catalyst.

But if the HHO is altering the flame front speed of the gasoline then I would
think that the HHO is acting on the gasoline as a catalyst?

I by no means know, I'm just speculating at this point.


Glen

[Roland Jacques]

here is a interesting video on the subject. Its kind of funny, it is a typed movie :o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78_IyCM2fGk&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ehydrogen%2Dboost%2Ecom%2FJ uly%25202009%2Ehtml&feature=player_embedded

[biggy boy]

Funny I watched that vidio last weekend.

[Philldpapill]

So... Any ideas about how to TEST the flame propogation speed of HHO vs. stochiometric gasoline/oxygen? I'd really like to get some data on this... If anyone can think up an expirement, I'm sure I could supply/design any electronics needed.

[M34me]

Don't have time to watch the vid right now.

So you're saying that the spark ignites the hho which burns 10 times faster than gas, which in turn provides a much larger source of ignition to the gas (essentially eliminating the need to index your plugs) which helps in a significantly more complete burn.

Just to throw a wrench in the mix, what is the burn rate of LNG and LPG?

My dad had a car back in the '80s that ran on LNG (he worked for the gas company) A Buick Century if I remember right. No mods to the engine other than the delivery system.

[AlexR]

I would suggest we first discuss what Brown's Gas is before we get into what it does.

[Boltazar]

We know the the burn rate using HHO is faster than gasoline alone. Using HHO and gas causes the gas to burn more completely releasing more energy enabeling us to cut back on the amount of gas injected into the engine giving us better gas milage.

What we need to figure out is how to beat the computer to compensate for the extra Oxygen in the system at the pre cat O sensors.

The computer wants to run at 14.3 to 1, air to gas and will do anyting to compensate to achieve that. The tables have to be changed in the computer so it wil run the way we want. This requires reprograming the computer. A hp tuner might do this.

[Philldpapill]

AlexR, "Brown's Gas" = "HHO" = 2H2 + O2. That's pretty well established. It's not anything super special or magical, but apparently, the addition of it into a gasoline/air mixture gives some benefits. Since we know what the stuff IS, this conversation is about what it DOES.

Boltazar, I don't want to spread any misinformation. It's not CONCLUDED that the flamefront has a higher speed than gasoline alone, but that is just my theory. I don't want to present that as fact, yet.

However, all this talk about "burning the gas more completely" is really just nonsense. The portion of gasoline that does NOT burn, is extremely low - in the range of about 1%. A "more complete burn" is obviously not the answer. I think that the increased burn RATE is what we need to investigate. An increased burn rate would cause a faster expansion of gas, allowing for a higher expansion-to-heat conduction ratio. In other words, the piston doesn't just sit there with moderately hot gas inside, leaking heat out, but instead, nearly instantly begins forcing the piston down.

BTW, Boltazar - I really like your quotes. :)

As for the extra O2 and beating the computer - I think a simple modification to the O2 sensor wire is the easiest way. If the O2 sensor puts out a voltage proportional to the amount of O2, a single voltage divider would suffice(two resistors and MAYBE an opamp to buffer the votlage).

[Boltazar]

a single voltage divider would suffice(two resistors and MAYBE an opamp to buffer the votlage).

would that be a efie?

[AlexR]

a single voltage divider would suffice(two resistors and MAYBE an opamp to buffer the votlage).

would that be a efie?

Boltazar,

an EFIE would do what you describe, but it's operation is a bit more involved. Not too complicated though.
Doing anything to make more efficient combustion such as adding BG, additional vapor, water injection, etc will result in more free oxygen in the exhaust. The oxygen sensor reads this and the computer interprets it as a lean mixture. To correct this the computer dumps in more fuel resulting in a loss of mileage. The EFIE adds a small voltage to the oxygen sensor wire going to the computer to offset the false lean signal and allowing the vehicle to get better mileage. There are now EFIEs for both narrow and wide-band oxygen sensors.

One of these is highly recommended for gaining mileage with any fuel saver.

Some people recommend disconnecting the oxygen sensor completely. Personally I wouldn't recommend this. For one thing, you won't pass emmissions without it.

[AlexR]

AlexR, "Brown's Gas" = "HHO" = 2H2 + O2. That's pretty well established. It's not anything super special or magical, but apparently, the addition of it into a gasoline/air mixture gives some benefits. Since we know what the stuff IS, this conversation is about what it DOES.


Where do you get the info that BG consists of only 2H2 and O2?

[Philldpapill]

I'm not completely sure about what an EFIE does... From what I gather, it's a little box with some cool looking circuitry that is more to impress the buyer with the techy look, rather than to do something amazing... I could be wrong.

[Philldpapill]

AlexR, to make "Brown's Gas" or "HHO", you are doing electrolysis, right? And when you electrolyze water, the process is 2(H20) + Energy -> 2H2 + O2... It's pretty straight forward.

Why do you think it is anything else?


Also, as for the EFIE - Yeah - according to AlexR, they consist of a couple of opamp circuits. A simple voltage adder circuit, and maybe a buffer? How much do EFIEs run anyway? >$20?

Also, AlexR - what are you defining "combustion efficiency" as??? When talking about energy effiency, it's "Energy Out divided by Energy In". What would be "inefficient combustion"? Are you talking about something like "Fuel Burned divided by Fuel Injected"? If that's the case, efficiency is always going to be in the ballpark of 99% if there is enough oxygen present. The ECU is looking at the remaining oxygen in the exhaust to determine if there is enough oxygen in the combustion. Personally, I think the use of the EFIE is running the fuel mixture a little more lean than the manufacturer suggests(engine life expectancy is reduced), resulting in increased mileage, at the expense of the engine life...

[M34me]

Getting off topic here. I am very interested in what's happening in the chamber b4 we look into how to battle the ECU.

So if the combustion is happening faster, wouldn't that suggest changing the timing?

Or does the combination of gasoline and HHO somehow create a more powerful mixture?

As for the complete burn part though. I indexed the plugs on a 4.0 L Explorer as well as my 5.0 L Mountaineer and saw noticeable gains. Around 10% in the 4.0 and at least 5% in 5.0. All this practice does is expose the spark gap to the fuel to provide a larger ignition source resulting in a either a more complete burn or a faster burn, or perhaps a little of both.

[biggy boy]

Getting off topic here. I am very interested in what's happening in the chamber b4 we look into how to battle the ECU.

So if the combustion is happening faster, wouldn't that suggest changing the timing?

Or does the combination of gasoline and HHO somehow create a more powerful mixture?

As for the complete burn part though. I indexed the plugs on a 4.0 L Explorer as well as my 5.0 L Mountaineer and saw noticeable gains. Around 10% in the 4.0 and at least 5% in 5.0. All this practice does is expose the spark gap to the fuel to provide a larger ignition source resulting in a either a more complete burn or a faster burn, or perhaps a little of both.

Did you end up using very many spacers?

Also you mentioned adjusting the timing!
With the introduction of HHO
Would you want to advance the timing? or retard it?

Edit:
I have been doing some reading on ignition timing.
Advancing the timing ignites the air/fuel charge earlier before the piston reaches top dead center (TDC) on the power stroke.
Retarding the ignition ignites the air fuel charge later in the power stroke, closer to top dead center.
Glen

[Helz_McFugly]

when setting the timing with HHO being a factor you would want to set it as close to TDC as you can, depending on the ammount of HHO being introduced into the cylinder. normally timing is set just before TDC because of the slower burn rate of gas, this is also another one of the many ways a IC engine has waisted energy using gas btw, but when you add the HHO and depending on the ammount, you would want to advance it as close to TDC as you can, of coarse not so much that you get pinging. Im not sure if the ECM will do this on its own or not. Im guessing no but I could be wrong. I use to have a 83 chevy p/u with a 350 v8 in it and I had a tachometer that I could change the timing on from the tach in the cab of the truck. And this is one of the many reasons im using my older junkier truck for my HHO project. but im still going to battle the ECM untill i win on the 08 charger so I can burn fuel more efficiently in style :p

[biggy boy]

Helz
thanks for the info.

Glen

[M34me]

Did you end up using very many spacers?

Also you mentioned adjusting the timing!
With the introduction of HHO
Would you want to advance the timing? or retard it?
Apparently an engine is more efficient when the ignition is advanced, but not to the point of knocking and pinging. So will HHO allow the timing to be advanced?

Glen

Spacers come in 3 different sizes allowing for 1/3 turn each size. Then you may need to torque and retorque a couple times to get it just right. Only one spacer per plug.

And I don't know about the timing, just something to consider.

[Philldpapill]

Guys, let's do a thought expirement with regards to ignition sources... What happens in the cylinder(with fuel) when the spark plug sparks? It initiates a propogating combustion wave. Does the ignition affect the propogating wave an inch down from the spark plug? Once the combustion wave is established, does the size/exposure of the spark make a single bit of difference?

I could be dead wrong about this, but this idea that a different "type" of spark has an affect on the end result, is like saying that starting a bondfire with a blowtorch makes a bigger bond fire than using a book of matches to start it. Once the bondfire is lit, the way you lit it really doesn't make a difference. All a sparkplug does, is initiate the reaction. It dumps energy into the reactants(fuel and oxygen) to initiate a reaction. Once the reaction starts, the sparkplug doesn't make much difference. Now, if your cylinders are MISSING, then sure - a better sparkplug will make a difference because in some cycles, the reaction isn't starting.

Anyway, this is getting off topic. Back to the theories of HHO?

[biggy boy]

Thanks M34me

I'm reading up on engine timing, to understand what is advanced and retarded.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/myths.php

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing

Glen

[biggy boy]

Guys, let's do a thought expirement with regards to ignition sources... What happens in the cylinder(with fuel) when the spark plug sparks? It initiates a propogating combustion wave. Does the ignition affect the propogating wave an inch down from the spark plug? Once the combustion wave is established, does the size/exposure of the spark make a single bit of difference?

I could be dead wrong about this, but this idea that a different "type" of spark has an affect on the end result, is like saying that starting a bondfire with a blowtorch makes a bigger bond fire than using a book of matches to start it. Once the bondfire is lit, the way you lit it really doesn't make a difference. All a sparkplug does, is initiate the reaction. It dumps energy into the reactants(fuel and oxygen) to initiate a reaction. Once the reaction starts, the sparkplug doesn't make much difference. Now, if your cylinders are MISSING, then sure - a better sparkplug will make a difference because in some cycles, the reaction isn't starting.

Anyway, this is getting off topic. Back to the theories of HHO?

I agree it doesn't makes a bigger bond fire, but having the right spark in the right place does lights it sooner.
Time is of the essence when the engine is turning over several thousand times a minute, you want to ignite the the mixture as soon as possible before it gets pushed out the exhaust.

You are right that once the bond fire is lite who care, you have all night to drink bear, roast marsh mellows and roast wieners. But with ICE we don't have this time luxury. :)

[Helz_McFugly]

sorry off topic but i wanted to toss this in.

setting timing on a motor that has a destributor is very easy with a timing light. if your car doesnt have a destributor the timing is set by the ECM from readings sent by sensors on the flywheel and/or crankshaft and can only be set/changed by an ECM interface. thats where my knowledge of the timing ends. i dont know if the ECM changes the timing based off readings from the other sensors. What would really be nice is if we had a EFIE that used a pc as its interface and could be adjusted by the pc. i know proformance junkies use some awesome computer interfaces, I dont know if there is one that would control sensors such as 02, MAP, MAF, BARA, Coolant temp. But IMHO it would be the fix for ALL cars with an ECM if you had an interface on a pc that would give you a GUI image of each sensor and let you adjust it. hint hint to any programmers and electrical engineers. :D

[Philldpapill]

I like your thinking, Helz... I think a device could be made that adjusts the timing in between the ECU and the ignition system... Basically, it would watch for the signals from the ECU saying "ok, fire!". It would then bypass those signals, and either wait a little LONGER, or a littler earlier - then send IT'S signal to the ignition system telling it to fire.

Anyone interested in such a device? I could rig a GUI up as well, so you can edit your own timing tables...

EDIT: This device would have 50ns resolution, meaning the advance/retard feature would only be in increments of 50nano seconds... So, you could advance/retard the timing by 50ns, 100ns, 150ns, etc. but not something like 63ns. Is that fast enough(I'm not a car guy)?

EDIT #2: I'm just thinking about this... Even if the car is running at 5000rpms, I think it is firing 8 times per cycle for a 4 cylinder(it sends a spark between exhaust and intake as well - not just compression/power stroke). If that's the case, then it's sending a pulse at 40kHz... that leaves 25microseconds in between pulses... That gives a resolution of 500 "steps" in between pulses to adjust the timing...

[biggy boy]

I like your thinking, Helz... I think a device could be made that adjusts the timing in between the ECU and the ignition system... Basically, it would watch for the signals from the ECU saying "ok, fire!". It would then bypass those signals, and either wait a little LONGER, or a littler earlier - then send IT'S signal to the ignition system telling it to fire.

Anyone interested in such a device? I could rig a GUI up as well, so you can edit your own timing tables...

something like this maybe?
Only thing it doesn't let you interact with the ECM yourself. or have a GUI.
But it does according to the info one the website do what you are talking about.

http://yhst-19807630266082.stores.yahoo.net/fs2hhoedition.html

There is also this that does have a GUI

http://www.hydroxycorp.net/shop/item.aspx?itemid=33

[Helz_McFugly]

I was visioning something that looks a bit like this

http://tiny.cc/2P3oK

[biggy boy]

OK that looks cool, so you would use it from a laptop in the vehicle?
Would need to make an interface from the computer to the OBDII port
I guess?

[Helz_McFugly]

exactly,

I know Ive seen these types of software on nascar or drag racing that they hook up to the car and can adjust and monitor whats going on. Its just an idea. im going to try and find what software they use and try and obtain a copy and see what it does.

[M34me]

I don't think that discussing timing is off topic in this discussion at all. I think it has a lot to do with what's going on in the chamber. I'm a little short on time to look at the links provided right now. I'll take a look soon.

As for the bonfire scenario. As biggy said, we don't have the luxury of time here.
The larger the ignition source, the faster you will light the gas. And I would guess that there is a definate possibility of the same or maybe a little more energy released in a shorter amount of time. Which in turn could result in a greater amount of pressure released on the piston.

Please take a look at my last post under "let's talk engines"
I think the fact that some of the useless air that is being displaced by the hho is also a factor. HHO provides energy, air doesn't. (at least not 80% of it.)

[Philldpapill]

I still stick to the bonfire analogy. Guys, when that spark starts, we are talking about MAYBE a couple of nanoseconds between spark plugs. The SPARK itself doesn't add to the energy released. I mean, comparing a generic sparkplug to a high-performance sparkplug... The time it takes for the spark to initiate is still about the same, so it's not a matter of time in this case. Are you saying that if you could, hypothetically, use a stopwatch and measure the time from the moment that the ECU puts out the FIRE signal, to the moment when combustion begins, that this time is dependent on the type of spark being used? I agree with that, but again, we are talking nano seconds... A spark gets up and goes pretty darn quickly.

[AlexR]

Guys,

Here is a report written up by NASA in 1977 about the effect of hydrogen on an internal combustion engine. They did not use an electrolyzer, but a methanol reformer to produce the hydrogen. The point is hydrogen was introduced into an internal combustion engine and it was found that this addition increased the flame speed.

It is detailed here.


http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19770016170_1977016170.pdf

Enjoy......

[Philldpapill]

Well, crap... that's pretty conclusive then! Very nice AlexR!

However, I'm curious about something in there... It seems they were using about 7% hydrogen by MASS... I know hydrogen is extremely light per volume, compared to gasoline, so I wonder how many liters hydrogen gas per liters of gasoline were used. Still, impressive research!

[Boltazar]

That volo 2 chip looks good, I'm going to look ino it. Timing has to be retarded as much as possiable BUT don't let her ping. Knock sensors should avance timming if she pings. www.HPTuners.com could make these adjustments,

[Helz_McFugly]

I think Im going to give the Volo FS-II a shot. what have i got to lose? $95? :p
I was thinking about this "HHO DIGITALVOLT & AMP DISPLAY DUAL O2 AND MAP/MAF Enhancers" before i saw the Volo FS-II
Its a little more costly but i like being able to see the readings. but im going for the FS-II unless someone gives some bad valid info on it before tomorrow morning when i order it.

http://tiny.cc/6ufIs

[M34me]

I still stick to the bonfire analogy. Guys, when that spark starts, we are talking about MAYBE a couple of nanoseconds between spark plugs. The SPARK itself doesn't add to the energy released. I mean, comparing a generic sparkplug to a high-performance sparkplug... The time it takes for the spark to initiate is still about the same, so it's not a matter of time in this case. Are you saying that if you could, hypothetically, use a stopwatch and measure the time from the moment that the ECU puts out the FIRE signal, to the moment when combustion begins, that this time is dependent on the type of spark being used? I agree with that, but again, we are talking nano seconds... A spark gets up and goes pretty darn quickly.
Well, Indexing is proven to work. Old worn out plugs vs. new ones make a difference too. They both still see the spark at the same time, but the size of it makes a difference. Now consider that HHO burns 10 times faster. So the spark lights the HHO/fuel mixture, but it's the HHO that really gets it all going much faster. Which is why I think it makes sense that there seems to be a saturation point. As well as the fact that not all engines are behaving the same with HHO.

[Boltazar]

Helz, Let us know how you make out with the volo. ASAP For the price it seems to do a lot

[Roland Jacques]

That volo 2 chip looks good, I'm going to look ino it. Timing has to be retarded as much as possiable BUT don't let her ping. Knock sensors should avance timming if she pings. www.HPTuners.com could make these adjustments,


You have it backwards, Kind of.

I believe the goal with ignition timing is to have it advance as possible without getting into pre ignition. When you retard timing to much you just loose power. When you advance timing to much is when you get into knocking.
Pinging is from detonation i believe this is different from pre ignition. I think detonation pinging is from the flame starting before the spark plug fires.


when setting the timing with HHO being a factor you would want to set it as close to TDC as you can, depending on the ammount of HHO being introduced into the cylinder. normally timing is set just before TDC because of the slower burn rate of gas, this is also another one of the many ways a IC engine has waisted energy using gas btw, but when you add the HHO and depending on the ammount, you would want to advance it as close to TDC as you can, of coarse not so much that you get pinging. Im not sure if the ECM will do this on its own or not. Im guessing no but I could be wrong. I use to have a 83 chevy p/u with a 350 v8 in it and I had a tachometer that I could change the timing on from the tach in the cab of the truck. And this is one of the many reasons im using my older junkier truck for my HHO project. but im still going to battle the ECM untill i win on the 08 charger so I can burn fuel more efficiently in style :p

You mean retard it.

Say Normal timing at idle is 15 degrees BEFORE TDC that means we have to move it backwards to gt it closer to TDC (retarding the timing)

[Helz_McFugly]

the pinging is combustion in the cylinder while the valve is still open. If you advance timing to much you are igniting the fuel in the chamber way before it reaches TDC and losing torque because the piston is trying to go back down. if you retard the timing to much youre igniting after TDC and not getting good pressure. normally timing is set just before TDC. But when you indroduce HHO, being that it burns faster, you can retard the timing a bit closer to TDC and get more torque/hp which will lead to more MPG's. just an FYI. If you ran an engine on hydrogen ONLY it would make sence to set the timing right at TDC or maybe 1 degree after. If im not mistaken gas has a 4k fps burn rate and hydrogen has 40k fps burn rate.

[Helz_McFugly]

You mean retard it.

yes i did, thank you
I retard myself a little to much sometimes. :p

[Roland Jacques]

I still stick to the bonfire analogy. Guys, when that spark starts, we are talking about MAYBE a couple of nanoseconds between spark plugs. The SPARK itself doesn't add to the energy released. I mean, comparing a generic sparkplug to a high-performance sparkplug... The time it takes for the spark to initiate is still about the same, so it's not a matter of time in this case. Are you saying that if you could, hypothetically, use a stopwatch and measure the time from the moment that the ECU puts out the FIRE signal, to the moment when combustion begins, that this time is dependent on the type of spark being used? I agree with that, but again, we are talking nano seconds... A spark gets up and goes pretty darn quickly.

Great point

But here is my thought on timing. I think the power exerted in the combustion chamber follows a curve. The idea is to start the flame before TDC so that it allows enough time for the flame to really to start producing power. The goal is for that power to peak when it can best transfer to the crankshaft somewhere around 20-80 degree After TDC.

Now you can see that Adding HHO will change that peak power spot because of the faster burn. So yes I believe that you do have to RETARD timing when Adding HHO. The Best timing for straight 100% HHO would probably be After TDC IMO.

Here another study theres quiet a few out there
http://water4gas.com/debunk/Hydrogen_Enriched_Hydrocarbon_Combustion.pdf

[biggy boy]

You have it backwards, Kind of.




You mean retard it.

Say Normal timing at idle is 15 degrees BEFORE TDC that means we have to move it backwards to gt it closer to TDC (retarding the timing)

Ya I think he means retard, to get it closer to TDC on the compression stoke.

And that is apparently what we want. We want the spark to happen closer to TDC, this is due to the fact that HHo flame front is faster. Gasoline is slower, you have to ignite it sooner or else there isn't enough time before the exhaust pushes it out of the cylinder.

the problem with being to advanced is, you ignite the fuel air charge to soon while the piston is trying to get to top dead center the force of the explosion tries to drive the back down again in the opposite direction of travel.

Yes by retarding a Gasoline powered engine you would lose power,
but with HHO being fast a flame front you can utilize the retarding to our advantage.

That is how I understand it from what I have been reading this week.
On timing and at other HHO forums. This is all new to me so I am NOT an expert. So take what I say with a grain of salt.:)

[Roland Jacques]

Here another good link on car engine stuff the Car Bible
They even go into HHO boosting down about the middle of the page.
http://www.carbibles.com/fuel_engine_bible_pg2.html

[Helz_McFugly]

thats a good artical, hard to believe its on water4gas.com site. that site is such a POS. I cant believe the HHO crap they sell on there, and the worst part is they sell alot of those POS kits.

[biggy boy]

Here another good link on car engine stuff the Car Bible
They even go into HHO boosting down about the middle of the page.
http://www.carbibles.com/fuel_engine_bible_pg2.html

I dont get that engine bible on page two it sounds like he thinks on demand HHO works and is good. But then when you go to page three he slams using HHO and says it's a scam.
What am I missing here??

[IM2L844]

Something that is continuously overlooked, but I think is worth pointing out is that while pure Oxygen has exactly zero energy value as a fuel on it's own, it has been shown to increase horsepower and fuel efficiency when added to the air intake of an internal combustion engine. While HHO is not classified, specifically, as an oxidizer, it affects the way fuel is burned in an internal combustion engine in a similar way

[M34me]

Something that is continuously overlooked, but I think is worth pointing out is that while pure Oxygen has exactly zero energy value as a fuel on it's own, it has been shown to increase horsepower and fuel efficiency when added to the air intake of an internal combustion engine. While HHO is not classified, specifically, as an oxidizer, it affects the way fuel is burned in an internal combustion engine in a similar way

I agree. Not to mention the fact that it's displacing air which 80% of which is useless.

This brings me to another point I have made in the "let's talk engines" thread. (but nobody replied)

If you were to try and run an engine on pure HHO, it would either need to be a closed system, or combined with air.

In a closed system I would think you could reduce the size of the engine significantly simply because it wouldn't need to provide volume for useless air. The power from the HHO would be the same (or at least close to it) but would have a lot less mass to move.

In an open system that draws in air, then likely it would need to be the same size it is now.

Your thoughts?

[Philldpapill]

I wouldn't call it "useless" air... The 80% you are talking about is primarily nitrogen. Actually, this "useless" air is really what drives the engine, and raises the efficiency. Basically, the heat from the combustion causes gases to expand in the cylinder, applying a force to the piston. If you only had the combustibles inside the engine, you would indeed have a higher temperature, but less expansion. In fact, these higher temperatures would actually cause more heat to flow OUT of the engine via conduction through the engine walls. Ideally, you would turn ALL the heat into mechanical power through gas expansion.

Calling the air that flows in "uselss" isn't accurate at all. Those gases are responsible for the "high" efficiency of the engine...

[Helz_McFugly]

I think what he meant by useless was we have 80% of the air in the air fuel ratio to mess with. In the default 14.7:1 air to fuel ration, only 20% of that 14.7 is Oxygen, the rest does diplace and help reduce heat and give the chamber more volume to compress. If we can replace .X% of that 80% with HHO it would increase efficiency and burn rate. and X would = a very small amount but it would still help alot.

[Roland Jacques]

I dont get that engine bible on page two it sounds like he thinks on demand HHO works and is good. But then when you go to page three he slams using HHO and says it's a scam.
What am I missing here??

I dont get it ether. Maybe one was posted and then he had a revelation.:rolleyes:

I'll tell you something that's bothered me for a while, and it also touched on a little in the "Jacob Wall, Department of Biological and Agricultural Engineering, University of Idaho" Study Page 5 http://water4gas.com/debunk/Hydrogen_Enriched_Hydrocarbon_Combustion.pdf

In one study when using compressed H2

"This study concluded that an electrolysis
unit would not provide enough performance increase to
offset the energy required to run the electrolysis process."

Then the HHO/Browns Gas study showed 30% gains

"From these two studies there appears to be a
discrepancy between the theoretical modeled results
and actual experiments conducted with electrolysis units
in vehicles."

This is what i have been interested in. it has been mention alot about proximity of the place where HHO is introduced into the intake system. some folks say that closer to the combustion chamber the better. I have never understood this. I have seen cliams that say that we are dealing with H1 not H2 (hard to believe). Could their be something else going on with HHO? Could This next paragraph be a possible explanation? Its a bit over my head.

"radical atoms of hydrogen and oxygen are bonded
they form what is called crystallizing π-bonds. These π-
bonds generate π-far infrared rays. These π-far infrared
rays create a strong gravitational cavity that causes the
substances to focus inward when burning. It has been
observed that this effect produces a burning temperature
of Brown’s Gas in the range of more than 6000 °C while
normal hydrogen’s burning temperature is in the range of
2700 °C"

Anyway just something else to think about

[Philldpapill]

Anyone that says we are dealing with atomic hydrogen, is just plain, 100%, wrong. At STP, Hydrogen can't exist in the ionized form. Seriously, why do people throw in all these insane claims that just fly in the face of the most basic understood phenomena of physics/chemistry? All that does is discredit any real research in this area... Nothing against you, Roland - I know you were just reciting what people have said.

That paragraph you quoted is completely bogus. "gravitational cavity? n-bonds??? Are they talking about the nsp oribitals? WTF? The grammar isn't even correct in the first sentence. God that crap just makes me maaaaaaad when people throw a bunch of technical jargon together that doesn't even make sense - all so that they can sell their bogus magic machine(scams).

[Boltazar]

Is there anyone here that uses a laptop tuner program during their normal work day? We need to get a professional opinion on the abilty to change the things we need changed using a laptop program.

[Roland Jacques]

Anyone that says we are dealing with atomic hydrogen, is just plain, 100%, wrong. At STP, Hydrogen can't exist in the ionized form. Seriously, why do people throw in all these insane claims that just fly in the face of the most basic understood phenomena of physics/chemistry? All that does is discredit any real research in this area... Nothing against you, Roland - I know you were just reciting what people have said.

That paragraph you quoted is completely bogus. "gravitational cavity? n-bonds??? Are they talking about the nsp oribitals? WTF? The grammar isn't even correct in the first sentence. God that crap just makes me maaaaaaad when people throw a bunch of technical jargon together that doesn't even make sense - all so that they can sell their bogus magic machine(scams).

Yeah, like i said, that area is over my head. I'm glad you can sort though that. Makes me question the whole study.


At the same time, some installers of HHO have claimed better results by having the discharge of the HHO as close to the combustion chamber as possible. I cant figure any reason for this. I would like to hear from experienced installers who have any experience with this one way or the other. I gues ill there posting that question around.

[Helz_McFugly]

I dont use them every day but im looking for one to work with and learn, go back to posts 23 through 28.

have a look at www.digimoto.com & www.autotap.com
that would be the perfect OBD2software if it will let you control sensors. PERFECT I TELL YA!!
even if it didnt having some efie's in place you could tell exactly whats going on under the hood while you're changing settings.

[Helz_McFugly]

:DFYI. Im getting both those softwares as i type. :D

[Philldpapill]

Helz, even if you have software on your laptop, how do you interface with the OBDII? i.e. what hardware do you use? I'm thinking about making a gadget that acts as a go-between for the OBDII and a computer program. It should allow you to mess around with settings and what not.

[Helz_McFugly]

Its already been made. but I dont think you can change the MV range on the sensors from these types of programs, but im not 100% sure which is why I downloaded them). what would have to be made is a program such as digimoto that could change the volt range of all the sensors it is reading, and that could only happen with some type of efie wired into that OBD2 to USB cable that the pc controls. catch my drift?

http://techgsm.com/admin/img/car_diagnostic/kwp2000.jpg

[M34me]

Helz, even if you have software on your laptop, how do you interface with the OBDII? i.e. what hardware do you use? I'm thinking about making a gadget that acts as a go-between for the OBDII and a computer program. It should allow you to mess around with settings and what not.

The cables for this are readily available. Ebay and others have them. I think around $20.00

[Buster]

Theories on efficient electrolysis – During the 1970’s
professor and inventor Yull Brown designed an
electrolysis power torch for use in welding operations.
This electrolysis unit was designed to pass the molecular
hydrogen and oxygen output through an electric arc.
Brown states in his patents that the electric arc splits the
molecular hydrogen and oxygen into atomic hydrogen
and oxygen radicals. When these atomic radicals are
combusted there purportedly is an additional 218,000 cal
per gram mole released than is normally assumed to be
released when molecular hydrogen and oxygen are
combusted [

[Philldpapill]

Sounds like OU. Sounds like BS.

[Boltazar]

I could be wrong here but I see it as that the tuner programs were looking at are able to change the tables in the ECU to fit our needs not adding or subtractng voltage.

Looking at the volo chip that is added to the ECU wireing, this chip is supposed to enhance the stock ECU by substituting tables when referenced and knows when HHO is being used or not. This chip may be able to be changed by the tuner progams also. That would make it more spicific to each sitution

[Helz_McFugly]

My check engine light came on this morning for about 15 miles then went off so the Volo must have sent a reading my ECM didnt like there for a minute.

[biggy boy]

What no code reader?

[Helz_McFugly]

nope, never got one. Ive always used my friends who owns a mechanic garage. Ill slip by there and see what it says

[richard_lyew]

My check engine light came on this morning for about 15 miles then went off so the Volo must have sent a reading my ECM didnt like there for a minute.

i used to have the same problem until i started using a AFC, now the AFC keeps the ECU happy so no check engine lights. now on the topic, i had to change my timing belt 1 time because it burst, i didnt check it when i got the car and i didnt know it needed changing. i did my timing by my owner's manual, it simply said turn the 3 main pulleys until all the arrows are pointing up, so thats what i did. first i turn the crank shaft pulley until the little arrow points up and did the same for the other 2 pulleys, then slip the belt on, adjust tension and start it, no problem. i dont know if its that simple for all or most other cars but its that easy for Subaru.

[biggy boy]

I believe for most vehicles the first cylinder has to be at top dead center on the compression stroke also.
I think it is possible to have the marking dot/slash on the crank facing up, aligned but still not have the TDC on the first cylinder? need to be careful.