threeston
08-05-2009, 04:52 PM
or, different way of looking at the math behind HHO.
first off, hho will probably never be a cure all system that will deliver us from big oil.
most people recognize it. But think about a turbo system for an engine. People spend tons of money on turbos and then hours and hours of tuning the resulting system to perform smoothly. car makers have spent tons of engineering hours designing awesome turbo charged vehicles, yet none have ever tried to design an hho system for boosting performance/economy.
But a turbo uses exhaust to force more air into an engine, which means more fuel can be used for a performance increase. BUT turbos are essentially not doing much at idle or low throttle positions, whereas hho systems should see the greatest benefit from low rpm, low throttle operating conditions.
logic dictates that at WOT a 3liter gas engine outputting around 200hp (175Kilowatts) would need a tremendous flow of hho to support full combustion without gasoline. but at 10% power (low throttle) the same engine is probably only producing 17,500 Kilowatts of power (20hp). each hp output of an engine is worth approx .74kw or 740 watts of power.
dividing 17,500 Kilowatts by 14-15volts(alternator output is around 14.7volts) would equal a current rating of 1166 amps! maybe we can bypass the voltage regulator of an auxillary alternator and tune it to crank out 100 volts, then current rating would drop to a measly 175 amps.
now apply that to an electrolytic cell where it seems most people go with around a 2.5volt difference across each cell would mean you would need 40 plates in series, per cell, with 38 neutral plates! 100v/2.5v per plate voltage drop = 40
do you see where im going with this?
but maybe we dont want to try and produce a total hho environment for the engine to use. so what would be an optimal percentage of hho charge for cruise rpms of our experimental 3.0l engine?
maybe a table would work well here at 10% power (17,500 watts)
percent of hho
5% = 875 watts
10% = 1750 watts
20% = 3500 watts
at 14.7 volts you would need
5% = 59 amps
10% = 119 amps
20% = 238 amps.
at 100 volts you would need
5% = 8.75 amps
10% = 17.5 amps
20% = 35 amps
obviously lowering the amperages will decrease heat build up in the plate surfaces.
I think the next generation of HHO will need alternators tuned to put out higher voltages, cell designs that use upwards of 40 plates in series!
I dont really understand what the pulse width modulators are being used for except to control heat.
For messing with the tuning of the car, until your system cranks out 1kw or more, your O2 sensors wont notice a thing! (175watt system will affect fueling by approx 0.1%) 175watt/14.7volts = 11.9 amps maybe this is crude reasoning since HHO also increases oxygen content of the air fuel charge.
Its time to think a lot bigger when it comes to using these systems.
unfortunately higher voltages = more danger, higher amps = even more danger. and higher hho outputs = yet more danger.
maybe we are looking at these systems in the wrong way.
thermodynamics still leaves us a ton of room for improvements. look at turbo charging, maybe of the same hurdles with that (tuning, heat, complexity, parasitic draws, etc). But yet no one seems to argue that the laws of theromodynamics demand a turbo shouldnt work. because we know it can.
Essentially a turbo is another feedback loop with which to extract more power under throttle from a same displacement engine.
Whereas hho is a feedback loop looking to extract more fuel efficiency during low throttle (cruise conditions).
maybe we could harness some of the waste heat that an internal combustion engine uses to produce electricity.
maybe this post will get some light bulbs to go off in someone's head
(think 3,500 watts of lightbulb)
first off, hho will probably never be a cure all system that will deliver us from big oil.
most people recognize it. But think about a turbo system for an engine. People spend tons of money on turbos and then hours and hours of tuning the resulting system to perform smoothly. car makers have spent tons of engineering hours designing awesome turbo charged vehicles, yet none have ever tried to design an hho system for boosting performance/economy.
But a turbo uses exhaust to force more air into an engine, which means more fuel can be used for a performance increase. BUT turbos are essentially not doing much at idle or low throttle positions, whereas hho systems should see the greatest benefit from low rpm, low throttle operating conditions.
logic dictates that at WOT a 3liter gas engine outputting around 200hp (175Kilowatts) would need a tremendous flow of hho to support full combustion without gasoline. but at 10% power (low throttle) the same engine is probably only producing 17,500 Kilowatts of power (20hp). each hp output of an engine is worth approx .74kw or 740 watts of power.
dividing 17,500 Kilowatts by 14-15volts(alternator output is around 14.7volts) would equal a current rating of 1166 amps! maybe we can bypass the voltage regulator of an auxillary alternator and tune it to crank out 100 volts, then current rating would drop to a measly 175 amps.
now apply that to an electrolytic cell where it seems most people go with around a 2.5volt difference across each cell would mean you would need 40 plates in series, per cell, with 38 neutral plates! 100v/2.5v per plate voltage drop = 40
do you see where im going with this?
but maybe we dont want to try and produce a total hho environment for the engine to use. so what would be an optimal percentage of hho charge for cruise rpms of our experimental 3.0l engine?
maybe a table would work well here at 10% power (17,500 watts)
percent of hho
5% = 875 watts
10% = 1750 watts
20% = 3500 watts
at 14.7 volts you would need
5% = 59 amps
10% = 119 amps
20% = 238 amps.
at 100 volts you would need
5% = 8.75 amps
10% = 17.5 amps
20% = 35 amps
obviously lowering the amperages will decrease heat build up in the plate surfaces.
I think the next generation of HHO will need alternators tuned to put out higher voltages, cell designs that use upwards of 40 plates in series!
I dont really understand what the pulse width modulators are being used for except to control heat.
For messing with the tuning of the car, until your system cranks out 1kw or more, your O2 sensors wont notice a thing! (175watt system will affect fueling by approx 0.1%) 175watt/14.7volts = 11.9 amps maybe this is crude reasoning since HHO also increases oxygen content of the air fuel charge.
Its time to think a lot bigger when it comes to using these systems.
unfortunately higher voltages = more danger, higher amps = even more danger. and higher hho outputs = yet more danger.
maybe we are looking at these systems in the wrong way.
thermodynamics still leaves us a ton of room for improvements. look at turbo charging, maybe of the same hurdles with that (tuning, heat, complexity, parasitic draws, etc). But yet no one seems to argue that the laws of theromodynamics demand a turbo shouldnt work. because we know it can.
Essentially a turbo is another feedback loop with which to extract more power under throttle from a same displacement engine.
Whereas hho is a feedback loop looking to extract more fuel efficiency during low throttle (cruise conditions).
maybe we could harness some of the waste heat that an internal combustion engine uses to produce electricity.
maybe this post will get some light bulbs to go off in someone's head
(think 3,500 watts of lightbulb)