208cc B&S on 100% hho

[hemigoose]

hi guys. im new to this forum, i go by the handle hemigoose. i know some of you from other sites on the net. i just wanted to share with you what ive been doing. i built my first cell last october, since then ive been working towards a 100% hho powered engine. i got my engine running this spring, i started out pretty simple i have made improvements and am getting better results now. there is still room for improvement. as i progress my set up will become more complex. my goal is to see just how efficient this small little engine can be. to date a this technology is not a viable , but we do not know enough about it to say it will never be viable. i have made some modifications to the engine that has lowered the fuel requirements, but more is needed. some of the modifications i have made include raised compression and a tighter fitting piston, and there are more to come. someday i higher level of electrolossis may be achieved to bring us one step closer to saying goodbye fossil fuels, if (when) that happens we will need to know how to put the hho to work. i hope to get more people interested in what i am doing, the more people doing this the faster we can advance. i will share what i have learned with who ever is interested, and also look forward to some input.
this is just a quick vid of how the engine mods have improved performance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNpgkne9rqE


hemi

[Roland Jacques]

Hi Himegoose,
I understand optimizing gas or diesel ICE with HHO boosting. I dont understand the point of trying to get a motor to run on 100% HHO. Maybe you can explain why we would want an engine that runs on 100% HHO. Without HHO OU i dont see the point.

[hemigoose]

i do understand your concern, however right now all we know is that to run an engine on 100% hho it takes allot of power and gas. it is not known if how efficient it can become with engine mods and injection methods. i have already lowered the fuel consumption of this engine, and am getting ready to test power output with a generator. at present what i have done is no good for anything bu pure enjoyment for me. do we really know how far this can go until we try? i believe in boosting as well, but i could ask you the same question. this is a learning experience for every one involved with hho. if we do not try we will never know.

[Philldpapill]

hemigoose, read up on the first law of thermodynamics. Efficiency can only get you so far. What we DO know, is that you can NEVER get more energy out of a system, than what you put in. In the case of HHO, it takes energy to produce the gas, then when you burn it, you get some of that energy back - the rest goes into wasted heat.

If you are talking about generating HHO onboard, running the car with the gas, then running an alternator to produce the electricity to produce the HHO that powers the engine that powers the alternator that provides electricity to make the HHO, that burns and powers the engine that powers the alternator, that provides electricity to make the HHO, that burns and powers the engine that powers the alternator, that provides electricity to make the HHO, that burns and powers the engine that powers the alternator, that provides electricity to make the HHO, that burns and powers the engine that powers the alternator, that provides electricity to make the HHO, that burns and powers the engine that powers the alternator, that provides electricity to make the HHO, that burns and powers the engine that powers the alternator, that provides electricity to make the HHO, that burns and powers the engine that powers the alternator....

I don't mean to be sarcastic. I'm only trying to drive home how silly Over Unity is. I doesn't sound like you are challenging the idea of OU, but many people have fallen into that flawed way of thinking by trying to drive their efficiency up, up, up. High efficiency is great, but it's easy to get carried away into the crazy(OU) school of thought.

[Roland Jacques]

I guess the question is, even if you make the motor 100% efficient ... You still have to be able to get HHO to run it. If you cant get HHO that was produced By 100% efficient means (Or Better!!!) than you will not be accomplishing much.

Example

If i spend *1 liter of gasoline to produce * 100 Horse Power that produces *1000 liters of HHO.

Then i take the 1000 liters of hho, to produce 100 HP. ( if the motor is 100% efficient) you still have not accomplished anything. Right?




I know a lot of folks do try to run motors on 100% HHO. i just cant figure out why. i guess it is just for the fun of it.

[hemigoose]

thankyou for your reply

i must ask you are you a believer in boosting? if so you are also trying to break the same law that i am. you are still converting energy witch at each stage there is a loss. i do have a basic understanding of these laws. i have heard all the arguments hho make gasoline combust more efficiently, but at the end of the day it is still energy conversion. if i subscribed to the text book version of physics i would never have gotten involved in hho. even if i was able to achieve 50% total system efficiency with a stationary engine and generator with a simple set up that would say volumes for our current understanding.

i do understand you point of view about overunity, im not stating that i have or ever will achieve such a feet but i will continue to think out side the box.

[hemigoose]

I guess the question is, even if you make the motor 100% efficient ... You still have to be able to get HHO to run it. If you cant get HHO that was produced By 100% efficient means (Or Better!!!) than you will not be accomplishing much.

Example

If i spend *1 liter of gasoline to produce * 100 Horse Power that produces *1000 liters of HHO.

Then i take the 1000 liters of hho, to produce 100 HP. ( if the motor is 100% efficient) you still have not accomplished anything. Right?




I know a lot of folks do try to run motors on 100% HHO. i just cant figure out why. i guess it is just for the fun of it.

if i can create a 100% efficient engine when the gasoline on its best day is 30% i would be rather happy. that may make a lot of folks reconsider why big business is keeping more efficient transpotation from us

[BoyntonStu]

if i can create a 100% efficient engine when the gasoline on its best day is 30% i would be rather happy. that may make a lot of folks reconsider why big business is keeping more efficient transpotation from us


AFAIK The most efficient form of transportation is a bicycle.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I once read that a bicycle is more efficient than a gliding bird if you consider the number of calories burnt per mile per weight.

BoyntonStu

[hemigoose]

are you speaking of a mechanical advantage. that would imply that the friction of the tires on the road and all the moving parts of a bike is less of that of a bird soaring through the air. mechanical advantages make our word go round, all we need is a better energy source. i am of the belief that we have that in hho. i suspect most of the members here do as well.


thanx stu
hemi

[BoyntonStu]

are you speaking of a mechanical advantage. that would imply that the friction of the tires on the road and all the moving parts of a bike is less of that of a bird soaring through the air. mechanical advantages make our word go round, all we need is a better energy source. i am of the belief that we have that in hho. i suspect most of the members here do as well.


thanx stu
hemi


I disagree.

Hydrogen is an energy carrier, not an energy source.

A battery is not an energy source.

Hydrogen, hho, and batteries are in the same category.

It takes 8,000 psi of Hydrogen to equal a gallon of gasoline.

Tire friction is peanuts compared to compressing Hydrogen.

BoyntonStu

[Roland Jacques]

if i can create a 100% efficient engine when the gasoline on its best day is 30% i would be rather happy. that may make a lot of folks reconsider why big business is keeping more efficient transpotation from us

Weather the HHO driven motor is 100% efficient dose not help anything.
It takes a 30% efficient gas-diesel-coal... to make the electricity to make the HHO. So your 100% efficient HHO motor is still only 30% efficient at Very best. You are still using the same amount of Fossil fuels. (actually more FF because the inefficiency of making the HHO)

Maybe I'm missing something. :confused:

[hemigoose]

Hi Himegoose,
I understand optimizing gas or diesel ICE with HHO boosting. I dont understand the point of trying to get a motor to run on 100% HHO. Maybe you can explain why we would want an engine that runs on 100% HHO. Without HHO OU i dont see the point.

ok lets talk about what i am doing. basically its all energy conversion. you mentioned the ac power i pull from the grid being 30% efficient. so i take electrical energy from the grid and convert it into hho. from there i take the energy from the hho and convert it back into mechanical energy. next i take the mechanical energy and convert it back into electrical energy. taking into account that every stage of energy conversion there should be a net loss.

now lets look at boosting. you take the energy stored in gasoline convert it to mechanical energy. then the mechanical energy is converted to electrical energy, then to hho and try to raise the efficiency of a gasoline combustion, and convert back to mechanical energy. now lets not forget how crude is extracted from the ground refined and shipped across the world.

if we take a look at the laws of physics that govern us why would any one be at all interested in hho. "at every stage of energy conversion there is a net loss". i am not interested in tell the forum members here that boosting does not work. i just want to point out that boosting and 100% hho at the end of the day is all about energy conversion.what we are doing is not all that different.

[Philldpapill]

hemigoose, I see your point, and at one time I also agreed with that logic. However, the general idea is that the added hydrogen/oxygen mixture pseudo-raises the octane of the gasoline. By "raising the octane", you are allowing the gasoline to burn a little faster/better. This effect in turn is thought to increase the overall chemical-to-mechanical energy efficiency.

I DO subscribe to textbook physics, and I DO think there's something really worth investigating here. I'm an electrical engineer(mainly power electronics), so energy conversion is right up my ally. I love this stuff, and it gets me all giggly like a little kid when I see efficiency gains. Yes, I'm a nerd.

[Roland Jacques]

ok lets talk about what i am doing. basically its all energy conversion. you mentioned the ac power i pull from the grid being 30% efficient. so i take electrical energy from the grid and convert it into hho. from there i take the energy from the hho and convert it back into mechanical energy. next i take the mechanical energy and convert it back into electrical energy. taking into account that every stage of energy conversion there should be a net loss.

now lets look at boosting. you take the energy stored in gasoline convert it to mechanical energy. then the mechanical energy is converted to electrical energy, then to hho and try to raise the efficiency of a gasoline combustion, and convert back to mechanical energy. now lets not forget how crude is extracted from the ground refined and shipped across the world.

if we take a look at the laws of physics that govern us why would any one be at all interested in hho. "at every stage of energy conversion there is a net loss". i am not interested in tell the forum members here that boosting does not work. i just want to point out that boosting and 100% hho at the end of the day is all about energy conversion.what we are doing is not all that different.

Boosting and 100% HHO ICE is Apples and Oranges. "Making HHO" and "100% driven ICE" is all about energy conversion.


At the end of the day, HHO boosting is about altering gasoline/diesel burning characteristics.
Like a high performance spark plug that uses more energy, but burns the fuel better. potentially resulting in a net gain due to minimizing the existing losses.

[hemigoose]

well guys, you all make interesting points. having this conversation with you in a civil manner has been fun. i did not come here expecting a medal, i just wanted to try and get more people interested. i did not mean to distract you from your projects.

good luck to you. i hope to see reliable results from your work with boosting. we both have much work to do.


hemi

[Roland Jacques]

i do find what you are doing interesting. i look forward to seeing your progress. If i could afford it id be using a small generator that has a 12 volt output to do some testing of my own.


I am interested in knowing what ignition timing position you think works best using 100% HHO. I alway assumed it would be about 15-30 degrees after TDC. Have you come to any conclusions as far as timing goes?

[kerry k]

[QUOTE=Philldpapill;30465]hemigoose, I see your point, and at one time I also agreed with that logic. However, the general idea is that the added hydrogen/oxygen mixture pseudo-raises the octane of the gasoline. By "raising the octane", you are allowing the gasoline to burn a little faster/better. This effect in turn is thought to increase the overall chemical-to-mechanical energy efficiency.

I DO subscribe to textbook physics, and I DO think there's something really worth investigating here. I'm an electrical engineer(mainly power electronics), so energy conversion is right up my ally. I love this stuff, and it gets me all giggly like a little kid when I see efficiency gains. Yes, I'm a nerd.[/QUOTE

FYI The higher the octane the slower fuel burns

[Roland Jacques]

FYI The higher the octane the slower fuel burns

I think higher octane means a more stable burn not necessarily a slower burn.
i think HHO and gas makes for a more stable burn and a faster burn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

[googleinc]

If you use the batery power to produce enough hho to run you engine at 100% then this would power the alternator to charge the battery to power the hho cell and so on.

How would this not work?