HHO generator efficiency

[redDEVIL]

Hi folks, i really need your in my HHO project.
Recently i've created HHO cells with parralel arrangement +N-N+N-N+N-,
I give electric supply at 10 A and 18 V. I use tap water in solution with baking soda. Apparently it produces quite a lot of HHO gas.
Yet, My aim is to get higher gas production.
Do you think my HHO generator is efficient? I've noticed that there is no increasing of temperature in my solution, but i've experienced problem with by transformator which convert AC current to DC. I found smokes at the wiring of transformator.

My cell gap is 5 mm and i use stainless stell plate 1 mm. ( 8 x 8 cm2 )

Best regards,

[Q-Hack!]

Hi folks, i really need your in my HHO project.
Recently i've created HHO cells with parralel arrangement +N-N+N-N+N-,
I give electric supply at 10 A and 18 V. I use tap water in solution with baking soda. Apparently it produces quite a lot of HHO gas.
Yet, My aim is to get higher gas production.
Do you think my HHO generator is efficient? I've noticed that there is no increasing of temperature in my solution, but i've experienced problem with by transformator which convert AC current to DC. I found smokes at the wiring of transformator.

My cell gap is 5 mm and i use stainless stell plate 1 mm. ( 8 x 8 cm2 )

Best regards,

18 V on a +N- configuration is 9V per plate gap. Not very efficient.

You don't say how you are measuring your amps, but if your transformer is smoking, then I suspect that it is just rated at 10 amps and you are actually drawing much more than that. Make sure you have an amp meter in line with the generator. That will tell you what you are actually drawing.

I would reduce your plate gap voltage by adding in more neutrals. You only need 2 volts per gap; anything more is just wasted heat. So at 18 volts you would need +NNNNNNNN-

Also, if you want better production then use distilled water and either NaOH or KOH. NaOH is lye and can be bought at any place that sells cleaning supplies. KOH is Potassium Hydroxide and is usually sold for soap making. Baking soda does work, but it eventually breaks down into NaOH. Until it breaks down all of the baking soda you are producing CO2 along with your HHO, so it is just better to start with NaOH.

A 5mm plate gap is ok, but if you can get it closer then you wont draw as much current to operate your cell. On my dry cell I use the PVC shower pan liner which is .40 mil (about 1mm) as my gaskets. Some people here prefer to use about 2-2.5mm gap which allows for better gas flow at a small cost of amperage.

Any chance you could post a pic of your set-up? It would help to point you in the right direction.

[redDEVIL]

Big thanks for your reply,

I've tried the +NNNNNNNN- , but it didnt produce as much gas as the +N-N+N-N+N- does. I saw the gas being produced only at left and right side where the anode and cathode were charged. Meanwhile at the neutrals, nothing happened. So i started using the +N-N+N-N+N-, where i can get bigger gas production.

I dont know what's wrong with my cell design. So far i'm still using tap water. Does it make a lot of differences if i use distillate water? will it make better gas production? I think the advantage using distillate only it is pure water and no minerals in it. While tap water is full of minerals that's why during the electrolysis we found yellowish brown bubbles on the water surface.

Anyway, i live in a country where it's difficult to get appropriate additives such as NaOH and KOH. I need somekind of license to make sure i'm not using the chemicals for bad purpose. Using Baking soda is cheaper and easy to get. So, i wish i lived in your country where i could get those easily :)

A few questions more :
1. Does the volume of solution affect the electrolysis ?
2. What kind of cable do u use to flow the electricity? I used a fibre core made of copper. When i used smaller core cable, it affected my transformator. It smoked. But when i used bigger core cable, my transformator stood good ( no smoke ).

I really appreciate your response :)

[Q-Hack!]

Big thanks for your reply,

I've tried the +NNNNNNNN- , but it didnt produce as much gas as the +N-N+N-N+N- does. I saw the gas being produced only at left and right side where the anode and cathode were charged. Meanwhile at the neutrals, nothing happened. So i started using the +N-N+N-N+N-, where i can get bigger gas production.

You don't say whether this is a wet cell or a dry cell, but if you are seeing a large drop in production with the +NNNNNNNNN- design that tells me that you are probably using a wet cell design and that the edges of your plates are exposed to the electrolyte. When this happens you get current leaping across the edges of the plates instead of through the neutral plates. That is why you only see production on the anode and cathode and not the neutrals. If you want to continue with the wet cell design then I suggest you get the edges of the plates isolated from the electrolyte. However, you should know that getting glues and silicon etc... to stick to the plates during electrolysis is a real chore. For this reason it is better to build a dry cell. The edges in a dry cell are external to the electrolyte, and therefore do not allow edge current to exist.



I dont know what's wrong with my cell design. So far i'm still using tap water. Does it make a lot of differences if i use distillate water? will it make better gas production? I think the advantage using distillate only it is pure water and no minerals in it. While tap water is full of minerals that's why during the electrolysis we found yellowish brown bubbles on the water surface.

Tap water is ok, but you do have impurities in the water that create unknown gasses. For instance the city where I live adds chlorine to the water. Running that through my electrolizer, would create chlorine gas. Not the best thing to put into an engine with aluminium parts. If you are seeing yellowish brown bubbles then you are probably safer than I am with tap water. Also, understand that baking soda is known for its creation of yellowish brown water during electrolysis. However you can also get this yellowish brown water when using NaOH or KOH just by having too much voltage per plate gap.



Anyway, i live in a country where it's difficult to get appropriate additives such as NaOH and KOH. I need somekind of license to make sure i'm not using the chemicals for bad purpose. Using Baking soda is cheaper and easy to get. So, i wish i lived in your country where i could get those easily :)

You can actually make your own KOH. Take a 5 gal. bucket and poke a small hole in the bottom. Put about 1 inch of straw or grass in the bottom and then fill the rest of the bucket with wood-ash. Sprinkle water from something like a watering can (so it acts like rain) over the ashes. The Potassium Hydroxide will drip out the bottom, be sure to catch it in an enamel coated or stainless steel pot. (ie, something other than a reactive metal pot like aluminium or cast iron.) It won't be as pure as the stuff we can buy in the store, but it will still work quite well.



A few questions more :
1. Does the volume of solution affect the electrolysis ?
2. What kind of cable do u use to flow the electricity? I used a fibre core made of copper. When i used smaller core cable, it affected my transformator. It smoked. But when i used bigger core cable, my transformator stood good ( no smoke ).

I really appreciate your response :)
Answers:

1. If by volume of solution you mean the concentration of electrolyte then yes. The stronger the solution the more current you will draw and thus the more HHO you will produce.

2. Yes, use the larger cable for your high current needs. I use 2 gauge automotive stereo amplifier power wire. http://www.stootsi.com/store/item.aspx?item=60008807 It might be overkill, but then I also draw upwards of 70 amps.

Hope some of this helps.

[redDEVIL]

You don't say whether this is a wet cell or a dry cell, but if you are seeing a large drop in production with the +NNNNNNNNN- design that tells me that you are probably using a wet cell design and that the edges of your plates are exposed to the electrolyte. When this happens you get current leaping across the edges of the plates instead of through the neutral plates. That is why you only see production on the anode and cathode and not the neutrals. If you want to continue with the wet cell design then I suggest you get the edges of the plates isolated from the electrolyte. However, you should know that getting glues and silicon etc... to stick to the plates during electrolysis is a real chore. For this reason it is better to build a dry cell. The edges in a dry cell are external to the electrolyte, and therefore do not allow edge current to exist.

Yes i use wet cell design. It makes things clearer now. I saw gas bubbles only at the edges of the plate anode & cathode, not at the neutrals. So by your suggestion, i have to isolate the edges of anode&cathode by glue/silicon to prevent current leaping. At first i thought that the bubbles would create at all surface of the plates. But i've learned that it only produces at the edges. Have to pay more attention at the reaction. :D
Soon i'm gonna attach my project. The idea is to produce brown gas and use the gas for burning i.e stove.
Gosh anyway, i've to learn to make dry cell to achieve better gas production.

Thank u.:)

[Bassman]

I read that if you drop the voltage between plates below 1.4 vdc that it won't produce. You may have too many neutrals.

[Q-Hack!]

I read that if you drop the voltage between plates below 1.4 vdc that it won't produce. You may have too many neutrals.

He said he was working with an 18 volt power supply. 8 neutrals plus a anode plate and cathode plate would give him 9 plate gaps. 18v / 9pg = 2v/pg

[redDEVIL]

Herewith i attach my cell.It is 12 plates so i have 11 cells. The configuration is +N-N+N-N+N-N. As u can see, i have extra one neutral at the right side. I did that with no certain purpose.
However, before this configuration, i've tried what Q-hack suggested me. I used +NNNNNNNN- which is 10 plates ( 9 cell, 2 volts pg ). I isolated all the edges of anode and cathode except the neutrals. The gap was 5 mm because i hadn't had enough time to do the smaller gap. The result was, no significant gas produced. It only formed big size bubbles but in small quantities.

I attach also my videos which are :
Vid1 ==> 11 plates, +N-N+N-
Vid2 ==> 11 plates, +-N+-N+-N+-
( both videos shows high gas production ).

The details of attached picture :
Pic1 ==> 12 plate, +N-N+N-N+N-N, Runs in electrolyte with 10Amps, 18 Volts.
Pic2 ==> My mini plant, consists of a generator, pipings, small enclosed tube for storage and at final is the flowmeter.
Pic3 ==> The cell, 2 mm gap, +N-N+N-N+N-N. No insulation at the edges.
Pic4 ==> The transformer AC-DC.

I am hoping to have a big gas production which can flow to my piping and finally at the flowmeter. But unfortunately, i didn't achieved it very well. It seems from the video, there is a lot of bubbles. The vapour is vissible. But when i run it in my enclosed generator, no flow at all. When i opened the lid / cover of my generator, i found condensed vapour at the ceiling of the lid / cover. So what i saw and i thought it was going to be a high gas production, it ended up with a condensed vapour.

So, maybe the solutions of my problem are :
1. Add more cells.
2. Increase amps to 20 or 30 amps.
3. Change my cell configuration or cell type whether it is wet or dry cell.

Please anyone help me solve my problem. I meet a dead end and need advice from the experts.

Best regards,

[redDEVIL]

Vid 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul4bVor6K6E

Vid 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niSuFNiAFz8

:)

[Q-Hack!]

Here are a few video's to help you with ideas on a good wet cell design...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBf2WdBx3tE&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wfgEBJBk3w&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHV3U4bXPso&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSMyNmIRH4w&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Almq2ks3FA&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WS6dNoPBUU&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlZN7Su2tL4&feature=channel_page

There is more, but you'll get the idea. I actually built one of these and can easily produce 3 LPM with about 40 amps @ 12VDC no PWM. It works well for my torch. However, my dry cell is more efficient and gets me closer to 4 LPM at the same voltage/current.

Here are some good videos for a dry cell design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utFfnDkivM4&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUOT-P5dkN8&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyOGg3Izt3I&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIlPb1R7I4M&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saIsoCV7-lw&feature=channel_page

[redDEVIL]

Thank u. I'll check it out.

[redDEVIL]

To Q-hack : I've seen the attached videos, but i'm still looking forward to see the gas you are making. I'll check further in the youtube.
I have these several questions for you. Do you have somekind of formula to calculate :
1. How large the surface area of each plate needed ?
2. The predicted gas flowrate ?
3. The resistance ( ohm ) in corelation with voltage and current ( ampere ) ?

By the way, I have this 25 cm diameter enclosed vessel with height around 20 cm. How much plate and how much the current should be to create at least 3 LPM of HHO?

Your response is highly appreciated :)

[Q-Hack!]

To Q-hack : I've seen the attached videos, but i'm still looking forward to see the gas you are making. I'll check further in the youtube.
I have these several questions for you. Do you have somekind of formula to calculate :
1. How large the surface area of each plate needed ?
2. The predicted gas flowrate ?
3. The resistance ( ohm ) in corelation with voltage and current ( ampere ) ?

By the way, I have this 25 cm diameter enclosed vessel with height around 20 cm. How much plate and how much the current should be to create at least 3 LPM of HHO?

Your response is highly appreciated :)

Unfortunately I don't have the ability to make video's. Maybe one of these days I will invest in a camera, but for now it is low on the priority list.

1. Plate surface area is really based on how much current you plan to push through your cell. My VSPB is exactly like the one that zerofossilfuel made in the video. Roughly 6cm by 25cm. I'm not sure what the minimum surface area required is, but I do know that the bigger the plates the more current they can handle.

2. I have never tried to predict the flow rate. I have always just built a cell and test the output. Generally speaking though, you should be able to build a dry cell that produces around 1 LPM for every 150 watts. That means that if your 18v power supply can handle it, you would need to run it at about 25 amps for 3LPM.

3. Ohm's law applies here R=E/I where R=resistance, E=voltage and I=current. However you need to understand that the resistance of the cell will change with temperature. As the cell heats up the resistance drops and the current increases.

[redDEVIL]

1. Plate surface area is really based on how much current you plan to push through your cell. My VSPB is exactly like the one that zerofossilfuel made in the video. Roughly 6cm by 25cm. I'm not sure what the minimum surface area required is, but I do know that the bigger the plates the more current they can handle.

What is VSPB? Maybe the surface area is having to do with current density ( not more than 0.5 amps per square inches.


2. I have never tried to predict the flow rate. I have always just built a cell and test the output. Generally speaking though, you should be able to build a dry cell that produces around 1 LPM for every 150 watts. That means that if your 18v power supply can handle it, you would need to run it at about 25 amps for 3LPM.

I'd like to focus 1st on wet cell design. I've seen the dry cell u made, and i think it's so difficult to built :) I hope i can get 3 LPM by wet cell. And What do you mean by 1 LPM for every 150 watts? Can u give me an example such as plate configuration, and how to calculate the power ( watt ).

[Q-Hack!]

VSPB just refers to the wet cell design created by Zerofossilfuel. I think it stands for Vertically Stacked Parallel Bath. But I could be wrong about that.

To figure out wattage you use the formula P=I*E where P=wattage, I=current and E=voltage. So for 450 watts @ 18v you need 25 amps of current.

Going back in our conversation, I noticed that you said you had sealed up the edges of just the anode and cathode. You need to seal the edges on all the plates to include all the neutrals. Any stray current will reduce your efficiency. The idea is to get all the current flowing from plate surface to plate surface.

To reach your goal of 3 LPM; I would suggest the following: +NNNNNNNN- get those edges sealed up and make sure that the plates are parallel to each other.

[redDEVIL]

To figure out wattage you use the formula P=I*E where P=wattage, I=current and E=voltage. So for 450 watts @ 18v you need 25 amps of current.

I'd like to use the available power supply i've got. So to get 450 watts, i have to make my power supply works at 45 Vdc. Which is, i can make it that way.
P = V. I
V = P / I = 450 / 10 = 45 V.



Going back in our conversation, I noticed that you said you had sealed up the edges of just the anode and cathode. You need to seal the edges on all the plates to include all the neutrals. Any stray current will reduce your efficiency. The idea is to get all the current flowing from plate surface to plate surface.

Can i have this series cell arrangement ? Please see the attachment. Assume that i have 3 cells arranged in serries.

-NNNNNN+ -NNNNNN+ -NNNNNN+

The thing that i will concern might gonna be the resistance ( ohm ). I'm afraid it will affect the voltage and the current. Yet, i havent practiced it. But i'm gonna test it. :)



To reach your goal of 3 LPM; I would suggest the following: +NNNNNNNN- get those edges sealed up and make sure that the plates are parallel to each other.

I'm gonna seal it up as you said. One thing i'd like to know, 150 watts would produce 1 LPM. It's based on your experience, right? Do you have a literature concerning that matter ?

[Q-Hack!]

Yes, that looks like it would work just fine.

also, the resistance of the cell is easy to change. If you have to much resistance you can always add more electrolyte.

[redDEVIL]

Yes, that looks like it would work just fine.

also, the resistance of the cell is easy to change. If you have to much resistance you can always add more electrolyte.

Q-hack,
Have u ever tried a series cell arrangement? Coz i want to know the different between serries and paralel cells. I have tried "the serries cell" as in my previous attachment ( 3 cells, each cell contains 8 plates, works in serries, 42 Volts and 10 Ampere ). I wrapped each cell with plastic tape, but it seems the wrapping is not very good coz maybe current leakage was happening.
The gas only produced at one plate where the electric went in. And my power supply was smoky at the wiring. I lately realized that i add too much NaOH in the solution, untill the resistance get too low.

I still trying to find a way to produce a very good gas production. What i'd like to ask, is it enough to tape only the edge of the plate without covering all the plates like u did in your video ? I currently use open bath electrolyzer. Please help me.. :confused: