Wanted 85 LPM HHO generator.

[BoyntonStu]

Wanted 85 LPM HHO generator.

I calculated the equivalent HHO to supply a 20 MPG car going 60 MPH as 1,700 Liters for 20 miles in 20 minutes.

IOW Your electrolyzer cell needs to produce 85 LPM of HHO for 20 minutes to equal the energy of a Gallon (Imp) of gasoline.


If your cell runs at 7MMW at 13 Volts you would need 1,600 Amps.

Can you visualize it?

BoyntonStu

[oicu812]

true but at 240 volts dc its 86 amps. at 480 volts its 43 amps.

[Painless]

The power required in watts is still the same, however you twiddle the voltage.

[HHO BLASTER]

true but at 240 volts dc its 86 amps. at 480 volts its 43 amps.

LOL soooooooooooooooo, only good if you got a long wire to your car

[BoyntonStu]

Stu,

Look at the energy again:

Gasoline = 4864 kJ/mol

HHO = 285 kJ/mol

Yes that is a big difference. But now look as you ionize the oxygen:

1st ionization level: H 1312 + 1/2 O 1313.9 = 1,968.85 kJ/mol
2nd ionization level: H 1312 + 1/2 O 3388.3 = 3,006.15 kJ/mol
3rd ionization level: H 1312 + 1/2 O 5300.5 = 3,962.25 kJ/mol
4th ionization level: H 1312 + 1/2 O 7469.2 = 5,046.6 kJ/mol
5th ionization level: H 1312 + 1/2 O 10909.5 = 6,766.75 kJ/mol
6th ionization level: H 1312 + 1/2 O 13326.5 = 7,975.25 kJ/mol
7th ionization level: H 1312 + 1/2 O 71330.0 = 36,977 kJ/mol
8th ionization level: H 1312 + 1/2 O 84078.0 = 43,351 kJ/mol

The key is not going to be delivering large volumes of HHO, it is going to be delivering ionized HHO.

That said if you just ionize HHO to the first level... we are only talking 12.304lpm per your estimates......

What Oxygen is left to ionize?

2H and 1O = H2O with no Oxygen remaining.

Who has done what you claim?

BoyntonStu

[oicu812]

LOL soooooooooooooooo, only good if you got a long wire to your carmaybe for someone as close minded and ignorant as you. there's many ways to transform voltage from 12 volts dc to just about any voltage you need.the question is how much money do you want to spend. I could easily build a 240 volt 86 amp dc power supply.

[oicu812]

I feel your pain shane... these people are so closed minded. god damn sheep.

[HHO BLASTER]

maybe for someone as close minded and ignorant as you. there's many ways to transform voltage from 12 volts dc to just about any voltage you need.the question is how much money do you want to spend. I could easily build a 240 volt 86 amp dc power supply.

Ok, sure that's easy to do, i just build one from old broken microwaves a 110 AC in 15 volts DC out, pushing a 85 AMP into a load that is on the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket of water and in 5 minutes its giving off steam.

BUT WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO GET THAT POWER IN YOUR CAR? UNLESS YOU HAVE A LONG CABLE OF 110 AC TO YOUR CAR

PLEASE SHOW ME HOW YOUR GOING TO DO IT

ALSO DON'T CALL ME IGNORANT YOU DON'T KNOW ME OR MY BACK GROUND OR MY SCHOOLING OR WHAT I HAVE DONE FOR A LIVING SINCE 1962
Gary

[Philldpapill]

oicu812, are you kidding me? You DO realize that if you "transform" a low voltage(12V) to a higher voltage(240V) and output 86A, you will STILL need a 12V source that can continuously crank out 1,720A... right? I'm sorry, but even a fully charged car battery will have a hell of a time putting out that much even for a second.

You DO NOT get around the high-current problem at all. I think it is you that is closed minded in the way that people can't talk any sense INTO you.

@Shane - where are you going to get the energy required to ionize the O2? That energy comes from somewhere, and I doubt it will be recouped in the engine. That train of thought is skating on the edge of talk of perpetual motion, which makes this subject(HHO) lose credibility.

[BoyntonStu]

"Philldpapill;29602]oicu812, are you kidding me? You DO realize that if you "transform" a low voltage(12V) to a higher voltage(240V) and output 86A, you will STILL need a 12V source that can continuously crank out 1,720A... right? I'm sorry, but even a fully charged car battery will have a hell of a time putting out that much even for a second.

You DO NOT get around the high-current problem at all. I think it is you that is closed minded in the way that people can't talk any sense INTO you."



People who BELIEVE don't really want to KNOW.

Their minds are made up without data or evidence to support their beliefs.

IOW Don't confuse us with the facts.

BoyntonStu

[HHO BLASTER]

From water car
But you missed that 20 MPG is the average over a distance, sometimes
more is needed, sometimes less. When you climb a hill, you need more
peak hydroxy, so better up that estimate by a factor of 2 or more,
unless you store a few hundred liters of hydroxy.

Of course, scammers will never mention stuff like this. "Only 3,000
Amperes at 14 Volts, that is only 42,000 Watts or 56 BHP into the cell
and 112 BHP to run the alternator. Your engine has much more power than
that... Doesn't it? And the alternator drive can easily handle over
100 BHP... Can't it? Why, your car must be defective, that's why my
$3,000.00 (plus installation) setup doesn't work... We never guaranteed
that it would always work... We have lots of testimonials from the
installer's girl friend, his mother... and never mind that some of them
have disappeared, it is all a big conspiracy.. ."

--
David G. LeVine
Nashua, NH 03060

[oicu812]

"Philldpapill;29602]oicu812, are you kidding me? You DO realize that if you "transform" a low voltage(12V) to a higher voltage(240V) and output 86A, you will STILL need a 12V source that can continuously crank out 1,720A... right? I'm sorry, but even a fully charged car battery will have a hell of a time putting out that much even for a second.

You DO NOT get around the high-current problem at all. I think it is you that is closed minded in the way that people can't talk any sense INTO you."



People who BELIEVE don't really want to KNOW.

Their minds are made up without data or evidence to support their beliefs.

IOW Don't confuse us with the facts.

BoyntonStu who said anything about one 12 volt car battery? I'm talking a $$$ 4000 dollar battery pack that can deliver 240 volts dc at 100 amps for ten hours.

[BoyntonStu]

who said anything about one 12 volt car battery? I'm talking a $$$ 4000 dollar battery pack that can deliver 240 volts dc at 100 amps for ten hours.


How much Do the batteries weigh and what are its dimensions?

What cell would you suggest that can deal with 100 AMPS at 240 VDC?

How many plates?

What are the dimensions and its weight?


Would you charge the $4,000 battery pack off the grid or in the car while driving?

BoyntonStu

[Philldpapill]

@Shane, personally, I think there is something to adding hydrogen to the intake of the fuel system. There are a couple pretty good theories about it, such as increasing the burn rate of the gasoline. However, the reason people call things like this a scam, is simple - >90% are just that. Also, when you ask "What makes you think it takes a lot of energy to ionize O2?", says to me that you totally disregard the first law of thermodynamics and probably don't subscribe to the theory mentioned. If you believe that you don't need to put X joules into a system to get X joules out, i.e. no need for the fourty-something kJ/mol for ionization, well, I can't speak very highly of you.

Maybe you don't know what ionization is... Basically, it's yanking an electron off of an atom. This takes energy. It also makes the atom have a positive charge. To try and take another electron off, will take even more energy because the atom is already + charged. More electrons removed = higher and higher energy needed. THAT is why it takes energy to ionize the substance(O2 in this case). Think of it like pulling a metal screw driver off of an increasingly stronger and stronger magnet... It gets pretty damn tough.

@oicu812, if you have that kind of energy storage on the car, why do HHO at all? Why not just convert the whole thing to run on electric motors? Also, there is no way in hell you are going to be able to sustain that kind of power output from the batteries. Even if you have a million batteries, they will eventually deplete because the alternator can't supply that kind of power. So if it's unsustainable, you will have to recharge it via other means(like a wall outlet). If that's the case, then you are simply getting energy from the grid to boost your gas mileage. Again, electric car...

But sorry, both of you guys, I guess I, along with other objective thinkers on here, are just idiots/sheep. Oh wait, did I say objective thinkers? I meant "naysayers" and "oil company employees". Some people just burn me up with ignorance.

[BoyntonStu]

@Shane, personally, I think there is something to adding hydrogen to the intake of the fuel system. There are a couple pretty good theories about it, such as increasing the burn rate of the gasoline. However, the reason people call things like this a scam, is simple - >90% are just that. Also, when you ask "What makes you think it takes a lot of energy to ionize O2?", says to me that you totally disregard the first law of thermodynamics and probably don't subscribe to the theory mentioned. If you believe that you don't need to put X joules into a system to get X joules out, i.e. no need for the fourty-something kJ/mol for ionization, well, I can't speak very highly of you.

Maybe you don't know what ionization is... Basically, it's yanking an electron off of an atom. This takes energy. It also makes the atom have a positive charge. To try and take another electron off, will take even more energy because the atom is already + charged. More electrons removed = higher and higher energy needed. THAT is why it takes energy to ionize the substance(O2 in this case). Think of it like pulling a metal screw driver off of an increasingly stronger and stronger magnet... It gets pretty damn tough.

@oicu812, if you have that kind of energy storage on the car, why do HHO at all? Why not just convert the whole thing to run on electric motors? Also, there is no way in hell you are going to be able to sustain that kind of power output from the batteries. Even if you have a million batteries, they will eventually deplete because the alternator can't supply that kind of power. So if it's unsustainable, you will have to recharge it via other means(like a wall outlet). If that's the case, then you are simply getting energy from the grid to boost your gas mileage. Again, electric car...

But sorry, both of you guys, I guess I, along with other objective thinkers on here, are just idiots/sheep. Oh wait, did I say objective thinkers? I meant "naysayers" and "oil company employees". Some people just burn me up with ignorance.

Well said!

I may have been a little optimistic.

Here are some real numbers:

"BoyntonStu


To look at another way, gasoline has 130 MJ/gallon, so the engine
requires about 6.5 MJ/mile input (at 20 MPG.) Hydrogen gas has 0.01079
MJ per liter, so it takes 600 Liters/mile, liquid hydrogen has 10.1 MJ/L
so it takes about 0.64 Liters/mile or about 6.35 MPG. The fuel ratios
are 3.14:1 See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density for
verification of these numbers.

The hydrogen powered BMW 7 series car gets 125 miles from 30 gallons of
liquid hydrogen and 310 miles on 19.5 gallons of gasoline -- 4.16 MPG on
hydrogen and 15.89 MPG on gasoline, a ratio of 3.82:1. The ratios are
similar to those above (+/- 20%), see
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=117647
for details of the car.

It looks like your ratios are a wee bit optimistic! This looks like a
600 LPM hydrogen gas at 60 MPH, hydroxy will need 1,320 LPM or so.

Now, hydroxy may be more efficient than gasoline/air (since the "inert"
parts of the air in the charge won't be heated), but I think you dropped
a decimal somewhere.

--
David G. LeVine
Nashua, NH 03060"

As always, David is usually right on.

I can recheck my calculations but if my calculation was too low, it would only make the improbable, more improbable if not impossible.

BoyntonStu

P.S. Perhaps someone should forward the above the Desertphile.

[HHO BLASTER]

who said anything about one 12 volt car battery? I'm talking a $$$ 4000 dollar battery pack that can deliver 240 volts dc at 100 amps for ten hours.

Have that $$$4000 dollar battery run a DC motor, oh crap that's a electric car sooooooooooooo, maybe you should join a EV forum

http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32560

[HHO BLASTER]

This is making me think, what did Stan Meyer really use for fuel?

What was he burning? Maybe he faked it. Could he have had a secret tank for gasoline, maybe inside the dune buggy roll bars.

[HHO BLASTER]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_PtTKwwh_xBc/SUSu0Lxy7AI/AAAAAAAAGBw/Y1ZCTmmMYD4/s400/greer.jpg


http://jratcliffscarab.blogspot.com/2008/12/dr-steven-greer-buys-dune-buggy-for.html


(Dr. Steven Greer driving his new $120k Stan Meyer water fueled dune buggy.)

Dr. Steven Greer provides the kind of comic relief that modern society demands. Just this past week our favorite alien space brother spent about $120k to purchase Stan Meyer's water fueled Dune Buggy (which hasn't run for over a decade) as well as various and sundry pieces of junk.

Stan Meyer was that mythical inventor who claimed to have created a car which runs on water. He modified a dune buggy and claimed he ran it on nothing but water, wishes, and fairy tales. He got a fair amount of media coverage before he was sued by his investors, ruled a fraud by the courts, and died at an early age.

Of course cars don't run on water but they can be modified to run on hydroxy gas. Meyer accomplished no great miracle by running his dune buggy on hydroxy gas, the real point of contention is whether or not he was running it as an over-unity device; meaning was he getting more energy out than he was expending by running electrolysis.

Meyer claimed he had devised a mechanism which achieved over-unity (i.e perpetual motion, free energy, etc) by running a high frequency high voltage signal through a specially prepared set of metal plates. He filed, and received, several patents.

Not surprisingly, no one has ever been able to reproduce his claims based on the patent information. In addition, he was sued by his investors and the courts appointed scientists to investigate his device and found it to be doing nothing but ordinary (under-unity) electrolysis. Meyer was found guilty and had to refund his investors money.

Strangely, none of this seems to bother Dr. Steven Greer. For a man who's life is nothing but one bat-**** crazy claim on top of another, it is natural for him to believe the bat-**** crazy claims of others.

He is now the proud owner of a massive pile of crap from the Meyer estate. I am happy for the scam artists who sold this pile of trash and I am sure they are laughing all of the way to the bank.

Meanwhile, Greer is asking for your donations to support the research necessary to turn this pile of junk into free energy gold.

I wish Dr. Greer the best, I can't wait to see him tearing down mainstreet in his free-energy dune buggy and I look forward to converting my Beck 550 as soon as his water-fuel kit is available at Walmart for $49.95.

[oicu812]

Ok, sure that's easy to do, i just build one from old broken microwaves a 110 AC in 15 volts DC out, pushing a 85 AMP into a load that is on the bottom of a 5 gallon bucket of water and in 5 minutes its giving off steam.

BUT WHERE ARE YOU GOING TO GET THAT POWER IN YOUR CAR? UNLESS YOU HAVE A LONG CABLE OF 110 AC TO YOUR CAR

PLEASE SHOW ME HOW YOUR GOING TO DO IT

ALSO DON'T CALL ME IGNORANT YOU DON'T KNOW ME OR MY BACK GROUND OR MY SCHOOLING OR WHAT I HAVE DONE FOR A LIVING SINCE 1962
Gary

you are right gary and I apologize ... I had no right to call you ignorant. i'm sorry, it hit a nerve with me with that crack about a long extension cord.
OK ... to keep things realistic I can build a lithium ion battery pack that can deliver 96 amps for four hours at 13.6 volts. we can play with the voltage with an inverter and rectifier but will lose about .9 due to inefficientey. the battery pack would be 32 lithium ion bateries at $ 400 bucks a piece $12,800 dollars. the pack would weigh about 640 pounds. at this point your right why not just make it an electric car with a 200 mile range. but to keep things intresting lets say we used 12" by 12" titanium plates coated with platinum at 5 microns. it would have to be a monster cell with at least 100 plates easily costing another $20,000 . so now we're up to $32,800 bucks for the cell and power supply. you'ld have to reverse the polarity on the cell each cycle of battery discharge to save on plate wear but you should get a couple years in before the plates would have to coated again. look , nobody said something like this would be cheap and yes it would need to be plugged in to the grid to recharge the battery pack at night. i'm guessing the cost of electricity would be less than 2 cents a mile depending on your utility rate and if they charge a time of use charge. the point is nothing is impossible and the impossible only costs more money.

[HHO BLASTER]

you are right gary and I apologize ... I had no right to call you ignorant. i'm sorry, it hit a nerve with me with that crack about a long extension cord.
OK ... to keep things realistic I can build a lithium ion battery pack that can deliver 96 amps for four hours at 13.6 volts. we can play with the voltage with an inverter and rectifier but will lose about .9 due to inefficientey. the battery pack would be 32 lithium ion bateries at $ 400 bucks a piece $12,800 dollars. the pack would weigh about 640 pounds. at this point your right why not just make it an electric car with a 200 mile range. but to keep things intresting lets say we used 12" by 12" titanium plates coated with platinum at 5 microns. it would have to be a monster cell with at least 100 plates easily costing another $20,000 . so now we're up to $32,800 bucks for the cell and power supply. you'ld have to reverse the polarity on the cell each cycle of battery discharge to save on plate wear but you should get a couple years in before the plates would have to coated again. look , nobody said something like this would be cheap and yes it would need to be plugged in to the grid to recharge the battery pack at night. i'm guessing the cost of electricity would be less than 2 cents a mile depending on your utility rate and if they charge a time of use charge. the point is nothing is impossible and the impossible only costs more money.

Ok do it, i wish i had that kind of extra money

Gary

[Philldpapill]

oicu812, here are more numbers. Remember, just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean it's economically feasible.

Let's say my car is $15,000. Let's also assume that it gets 30MPG. At today's prices, ~$2.50, that works out to about $0.0833/mile. With YOUR car, we'll assume you get exactly $0.02/mile. Your car also costs $32,800.

Now, if we do the math, your car is $17,800 MORE than my car, but you save $0.0633/mile. In order to justify those fuel savings, we'd divide your extra cost, by your savings. Here is how many miles you would have to drive just to break EVEN due to buying your car: $17,800/$0.0633 = 281,052 miles.

How many cars does someone own that last 281k miles? My brother had a civic for about 250k, but that is far from typical. I'm all for going "green", but at our current technology, there's no way in hell that sort of thing would be feasible. You're better off just driving my car with it's 30MPG.

[BoyntonStu]

you are right gary and I apologize ... I had no right to call you ignorant. i'm sorry, it hit a nerve with me with that crack about a long extension cord.
OK ... to keep things realistic I can build a lithium ion battery pack that can deliver 96 amps for four hours at 13.6 volts. we can play with the voltage with an inverter and rectifier but will lose about .9 due to inefficientey. the battery pack would be 32 lithium ion bateries at $ 400 bucks a piece $12,800 dollars. the pack would weigh about 640 pounds. at this point your right why not just make it an electric car with a 200 mile range. but to keep things intresting lets say we used 12" by 12" titanium plates coated with platinum at 5 microns. it would have to be a monster cell with at least 100 plates easily costing another $20,000 . so now we're up to $32,800 bucks for the cell and power supply. you'ld have to reverse the polarity on the cell each cycle of battery discharge to save on plate wear but you should get a couple years in before the plates would have to coated again. look , nobody said something like this would be cheap and yes it would need to be plugged in to the grid to recharge the battery pack at night. i'm guessing the cost of electricity would be less than 2 cents a mile depending on your utility rate and if they charge a time of use charge. the point is nothing is impossible and the impossible only costs more money.

Coal burning plants produce more than 50% of electricity in the US.

These coal plants spew radioactive Carbon 14 into our air as well as other noxious emissions.

The goal is to reduce this dirty source of fuel, not waste it.

If an electric car is more efficient than an HHO car, electric would be my choice.

If a Diesel car is more efficient and cleaner than a coal supplied electric car, Diesel would be my choice.

BoyntonStu

[mytoyotasucks]

Coal burning plants produce more than 50% of electricity in the US.

These coal plants spew radioactive Carbon 14 into our air as well as other noxious emissions.

The goal is to reduce this dirty source of fuel, not waste it.

If an electric car is more efficient than an HHO car, electric would be my choice.

If a Diesel car is more efficient and cleaner than a coal supplied electric car, Diesel would be my choice.

BoyntonStu

Well for me if i was to buy new, it would be the Toyota Highlander hybrid, says it gets 35 MPG in the city - so i figure it should get 31 MPG city real world.

But for me right now i think a cell that makes my cars more efficient is good. :p

[Philldpapill]

I like the way you think, stu. You seem to be a very practical guy in the sense of not being biased one way or another. HHO may be a great efficiency booster - and it may not. Regardless, it's sad to see this area of technology attract people with a "cult" mindset. What I mean by that, is that you can show some of them directly, that using alternative A over B is more effective, yet they will stick by alternative B until the day they die.

We need more education in the world. I think that will solve so many problems. Ignorance is usually what holds us back.

[BoyntonStu]

I like the way you think, stu. You seem to be a very practical guy in the sense of not being biased one way or another. HHO may be a great efficiency booster - and it may not. Regardless, it's sad to see this area of technology attract people with a "cult" mindset. What I mean by that, is that you can show some of them directly, that using alternative A over B is more effective, yet they will stick by alternative B until the day they die.

We need more education in the world. I think that will solve so many problems. Ignorance is usually what holds us back.

I would gladly trade everything that I know for everything that I don't know.

Also, I would rather correct something that I have wrong than to learn a new correct thing.


BoyntonStu